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Dogs of war, home for the minor races

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  • eomat#7953eomat#7953 Registered Users Posts: 3,267
    edited October 2020
    I'd like CA to make both Leopold's Leopard Company and the Alcatani Fellowship if not just for flavour. They both serve the same purpose but theme should also play a role.

    Can't wait to see Asarnil the Dragonlord on Deathfang. Been waiting ages to see a beautiful vibrant emerald Green Dragon. Hopefully they will add Lance animations for Asarnil and add them to Imrik too.
  • Djau#5149Djau#5149 Registered Users Posts: 13,293
    What would work best would be having a skeleton army list that the DoW would use; and depending which LL you pick, you could get a focus put on minor nation units. So an Albion LL would be using mostly the Albion units in his army, backed up by some of the skeleton army list units and some RoRs, same for Halflings, etc.

  • Ol_Nessie#9894Ol_Nessie#9894 Registered Users Posts: 4,310
    There should be next to zero crossover with the Empire. All of the DoW human units are actually quite distinct from other units even if some of them might be a bit mundane. Pikemen should not be spearmen with different uniforms, duellists should not be swordsmen or Free Companies with different uniforms, etc, unlike Norsca which had a good chunk of their roster literally copy/pasted from Warriors of Chaos. This is the wrong way to think of them.

    Concerning the minor races in the DoW roster, so long as they don't become the "main event" so to speak I'm all for it. In other words they shouldn't be the focus of the race, merely a few cool flavor units that add some exotic aesthetics to the roster. I don't really want to play the "grab bag of minor races" army, I want to play the Dogs of War and I think there's a subtle difference there.
    eomat said:

    I'd like CA to make both Leopold's Leopard Company and the Alcatani Fellowship if not just for flavour. They both serve the same purpose but theme should also play a role.

    They could make the Alcatani Fellowship the RoR for Pikemen and Leopold's Leopard Company the RoR for Armored Pikemen. Heavy armor was an equipment option for pikes in the official DoW TT roster.
  • HowTheStarsBurn#4488HowTheStarsBurn#4488 Registered Users Posts: 794
    Definitely should not be Empire-based, it should be its own thing. DoW have their own army book, they don't need to borrow from another.
  • AxiosXiphos#9040AxiosXiphos#9040 Registered Users Posts: 10,986
    There are certainly some units that *could* be straight copied pasted from Empire to be fair. DoW could easily have Archers, Crossbowmen, Swordsmen, Pistoliers and Empire knights copied across with small reskins and they would work perfectly fine.

    Pikemen need a new animation set and I'd love to see some unique mechanics with them - perhaps in line with pike formations we get in other total war games.

    I'm also not so sure about having that many albion / amazon units. I think more likely the DoW will have a core roster and then some form of regional recruitment showed off by the greenskins rather then being LL specific. Afterall the most likely candidiates for a dogs of war pre-order are Borgio, Luccrezzia & Lorenzo or Pirazzo. Given that a pre-order pack is likely to only have 2 (maybe 3) LL at best; they need to be quite generic options

    Borgio - faction 'leader' style lord (aka Karl Franz, Leoncour, Tyrion etc)
    Luccrezzia - The caster lord (aka Teclic, Gelt, Morathi etc)
    Lorenzo - The Duellist lord (aka Lokhir, Sigvald, Khalida etc)

    These are the 3 most common 'archetypes' of lords and if I had to pick 3 without bias it would be these...

    However my heart wants Morgan Berhardt...
  • Captain_Rex#1635Captain_Rex#1635 Registered Users Posts: 42,815
    Like others already pointed out, DoW have absolutely zero connection to the Empire so they make zero sense as the preorder bonus that would basically reuse existing empire stuff.

    Both WoC and Norsca only got like 5 new units with their Race Pack while the rest was copy and pasted or in WoCs case already existed.

    You cannot do that for DoW since their roster should be completely unique similar to DE and HE are unique. Would you argue that most DE units are just reskinned HE or WE units? I don’t think so.
    Summon the Elector Counts!
  • AxiosXiphos#9040AxiosXiphos#9040 Registered Users Posts: 10,986
    ArneSo said:

    Like others already pointed out, DoW have absolutely zero connection to the Empire so they make zero sense as the preorder bonus that would basically reuse existing empire stuff.

    Both WoC and Norsca only got like 5 new units with their Race Pack while the rest was copy and pasted or in WoCs case already existed.

    You cannot do that for DoW since their roster should be completely unique similar to DE and HE are unique. Would you argue that most DE units are just reskinned HE or WE units? I don’t think so.

    While I agree with you - we have to be realistic. If DoW are a pre-order then theres a very real chance many of their units will be reskins. In their DoW army book; much of their roster was near identical to the base Empire units - indeed there was also no miniatures for them so you either had to convert, use 3rd party or sue the normal empire miniatures.

    So it's not totally unrealistic to expect they might copy/paste a few options. As I say; most of the basic state troops and the basic knights could easily be ported across with a small reskin. You could also do the same for mortars & cannons if you were inclined.
  • Captain_Rex#1635Captain_Rex#1635 Registered Users Posts: 42,815

    ArneSo said:

    Like others already pointed out, DoW have absolutely zero connection to the Empire so they make zero sense as the preorder bonus that would basically reuse existing empire stuff.

    Both WoC and Norsca only got like 5 new units with their Race Pack while the rest was copy and pasted or in WoCs case already existed.

    You cannot do that for DoW since their roster should be completely unique similar to DE and HE are unique. Would you argue that most DE units are just reskinned HE or WE units? I don’t think so.

    While I agree with you - we have to be realistic. If DoW are a pre-order then theres a very real chance many of their units will be reskins. In their DoW army book; much of their roster was near identical to the base Empire units - indeed there was also no miniatures for them so you either had to convert, use 3rd party or sue the normal empire miniatures.

    So it's not totally unrealistic to expect they might copy/paste a few options. As I say; most of the basic state troops and the basic knights could easily be ported across with a small reskin. You could also do the same for mortars & cannons if you were inclined.
    Yes we have to be realistic. CA made the VCoast super distinctive from VC and unlike them, DoW actually have a whole Armybook. Expecting them to be a cheap Empire clone is completely unrealistic. Won’t happen.

    DoW are unique to the Empire just like Bretonnia is unique to the empire or how TK are unique to VC.

    They will 100% get a unique roster.
    Summon the Elector Counts!
  • AxiosXiphos#9040AxiosXiphos#9040 Registered Users Posts: 10,986
    ArneSo said:

    ArneSo said:

    Like others already pointed out, DoW have absolutely zero connection to the Empire so they make zero sense as the preorder bonus that would basically reuse existing empire stuff.

    Both WoC and Norsca only got like 5 new units with their Race Pack while the rest was copy and pasted or in WoCs case already existed.

    You cannot do that for DoW since their roster should be completely unique similar to DE and HE are unique. Would you argue that most DE units are just reskinned HE or WE units? I don’t think so.

    While I agree with you - we have to be realistic. If DoW are a pre-order then theres a very real chance many of their units will be reskins. In their DoW army book; much of their roster was near identical to the base Empire units - indeed there was also no miniatures for them so you either had to convert, use 3rd party or sue the normal empire miniatures.

    So it's not totally unrealistic to expect they might copy/paste a few options. As I say; most of the basic state troops and the basic knights could easily be ported across with a small reskin. You could also do the same for mortars & cannons if you were inclined.
    Yes we have to be realistic. CA made the VCoast super distinctive from VC and unlike them, DoW actually have a whole Armybook. Expecting them to be a cheap Empire clone is completely unrealistic. Won’t happen.

    DoW are unique to the Empire just like Bretonnia is unique to the empire or how TK are unique to VC.

    They will 100% get a unique roster.
    I agree with your sentiment and certainly hope you are right - but I don't think it's likely. Indeed I am very concerned (by video game standards) that DoW are not coming at all now. I think this pre-order might be their last hope... unless we get a campaign pack very late into the warhammer 3 cycle.
  • Captain_Rex#1635Captain_Rex#1635 Registered Users Posts: 42,815

    ArneSo said:

    ArneSo said:

    Like others already pointed out, DoW have absolutely zero connection to the Empire so they make zero sense as the preorder bonus that would basically reuse existing empire stuff.

    Both WoC and Norsca only got like 5 new units with their Race Pack while the rest was copy and pasted or in WoCs case already existed.

    You cannot do that for DoW since their roster should be completely unique similar to DE and HE are unique. Would you argue that most DE units are just reskinned HE or WE units? I don’t think so.

    While I agree with you - we have to be realistic. If DoW are a pre-order then theres a very real chance many of their units will be reskins. In their DoW army book; much of their roster was near identical to the base Empire units - indeed there was also no miniatures for them so you either had to convert, use 3rd party or sue the normal empire miniatures.

    So it's not totally unrealistic to expect they might copy/paste a few options. As I say; most of the basic state troops and the basic knights could easily be ported across with a small reskin. You could also do the same for mortars & cannons if you were inclined.
    Yes we have to be realistic. CA made the VCoast super distinctive from VC and unlike them, DoW actually have a whole Armybook. Expecting them to be a cheap Empire clone is completely unrealistic. Won’t happen.

    DoW are unique to the Empire just like Bretonnia is unique to the empire or how TK are unique to VC.

    They will 100% get a unique roster.
    I agree with your sentiment and certainly hope you are right - but I don't think it's likely. Indeed I am very concerned (by video game standards) that DoW are not coming at all now. I think this pre-order might be their last hope... unless we get a campaign pack very late into the warhammer 3 cycle.
    Your concerns are unreasonable mate. DoW are an Armybook race and were always meant to be in the Dark Lands. That’s where they belong based on their Armybook.

    Being a 20€ Campaign Pack like the Coast in WH3 is the most realistic scenario for them.
    Summon the Elector Counts!
  • AxiosXiphos#9040AxiosXiphos#9040 Registered Users Posts: 10,986
    ArneSo said:

    ArneSo said:

    ArneSo said:

    Like others already pointed out, DoW have absolutely zero connection to the Empire so they make zero sense as the preorder bonus that would basically reuse existing empire stuff.

    Both WoC and Norsca only got like 5 new units with their Race Pack while the rest was copy and pasted or in WoCs case already existed.

    You cannot do that for DoW since their roster should be completely unique similar to DE and HE are unique. Would you argue that most DE units are just reskinned HE or WE units? I don’t think so.

    While I agree with you - we have to be realistic. If DoW are a pre-order then theres a very real chance many of their units will be reskins. In their DoW army book; much of their roster was near identical to the base Empire units - indeed there was also no miniatures for them so you either had to convert, use 3rd party or sue the normal empire miniatures.

    So it's not totally unrealistic to expect they might copy/paste a few options. As I say; most of the basic state troops and the basic knights could easily be ported across with a small reskin. You could also do the same for mortars & cannons if you were inclined.
    Yes we have to be realistic. CA made the VCoast super distinctive from VC and unlike them, DoW actually have a whole Armybook. Expecting them to be a cheap Empire clone is completely unrealistic. Won’t happen.

    DoW are unique to the Empire just like Bretonnia is unique to the empire or how TK are unique to VC.

    They will 100% get a unique roster.
    I agree with your sentiment and certainly hope you are right - but I don't think it's likely. Indeed I am very concerned (by video game standards) that DoW are not coming at all now. I think this pre-order might be their last hope... unless we get a campaign pack very late into the warhammer 3 cycle.
    Your concerns are unreasonable mate. DoW are an Armybook race and were always meant to be in the Dark Lands. That’s where they belong based on their Armybook.

    Being a 20€ Campaign Pack like the Coast in WH3 is the most realistic scenario for them.
    Well on the plus side yes they are an army book race. But CA also said they are planning to do all 16 army books; which most people would interpret as the 15 major races and chaos dwarves... I dunno. I hope they come. Would be a massive waste of potential and a great shame to see rubbish empire clones on the map forever.
  • Ol_Nessie#9894Ol_Nessie#9894 Registered Users Posts: 4,310

    ArneSo said:

    Like others already pointed out, DoW have absolutely zero connection to the Empire so they make zero sense as the preorder bonus that would basically reuse existing empire stuff.

    Both WoC and Norsca only got like 5 new units with their Race Pack while the rest was copy and pasted or in WoCs case already existed.

    You cannot do that for DoW since their roster should be completely unique similar to DE and HE are unique. Would you argue that most DE units are just reskinned HE or WE units? I don’t think so.

    While I agree with you - we have to be realistic. If DoW are a pre-order then theres a very real chance many of their units will be reskins. In their DoW army book; much of their roster was near identical to the base Empire units - indeed there was also no miniatures for them so you either had to convert, use 3rd party or sue the normal empire miniatures.

    So it's not totally unrealistic to expect they might copy/paste a few options. As I say; most of the basic state troops and the basic knights could easily be ported across with a small reskin. You could also do the same for mortars & cannons if you were inclined.
    No miniatures?






    I could keep going, but then this would be one of the most image-dense comments on the forum.

    There are certainly some units that *could* be straight copied pasted from Empire to be fair. DoW could easily have Archers, Crossbowmen, Swordsmen, Pistoliers and Empire knights copied across with small reskins and they would work perfectly fine.

    There are no Empire Archers, Swordsmen, or Pistoliers in the official DoW roster. Heck, even their Heavy Cavalry differ in equipment. Besides, when and if CA decides to implement them one of the most paramount tasks is going to be making them play and feel distinct from the Empire. Plagiarizing all of those units and just applying a simple reskin won't achieve that. It won't be "perfectly fine."
  • bolero567#3890bolero567#3890 Registered Users Posts: 99
    I could not agree more. In fact, I've been thinking there's a strong case to just split Dogs of War into two separate factions, given the amount of named Legendary Lords & potential sources for units. It might be the only way to ever get generic lords and partial rosters for the minor human factions: Araby, Nippon, Ind etc

    Tilea makes sense as the "core" faction for a Southern Realms focused campaign pack. What about Marienberg? They have a surprising amount of potential units once you count the Manaan stuff as well. Could be the "Tilea" of a second campaign pack/base game faction.

    Example:

    "Southern Realms"
    Tilea
    Estalia
    Albion
    Araby
    Amazons
    Ogres

    "Dogs of War"
    Marienberg
    Empire (Halflings, Imperial Ogres, Empire sellswords)
    Nippon
    Ind
    Ogres (yes, in both factions, just with different costumes)
    Elfs, Dwarfs, Hobgoblins etc

  • Ol_Nessie#9894Ol_Nessie#9894 Registered Users Posts: 4,310
    bolero567 said:

    I could not agree more. In fact, I've been thinking there's a strong case to just split Dogs of War into two separate factions, given the amount of named Legendary Lords & potential sources for units. It might be the only way to ever get generic lords and partial rosters for the minor human factions: Araby, Nippon, Ind etc

    Tilea makes sense as the "core" faction for a Southern Realms focused campaign pack. What about Marienberg? They have a surprising amount of potential units once you count the Manaan stuff as well. Could be the "Tilea" of a second campaign pack/base game faction.

    Example:

    "Southern Realms"
    Tilea
    Estalia
    Albion
    Araby
    Amazons
    Ogres

    "Dogs of War"
    Marienberg
    Empire (Halflings, Imperial Ogres, Empire sellswords)
    Nippon
    Ind
    Ogres (yes, in both factions, just with different costumes)
    Elfs, Dwarfs, Hobgoblins etc

    That'd be kinda lame in my opinion. For one thing "Southern Realms" is a CA-invented term used to group the TW factions of Tilea, Estalia, and Border Princes into one convenient diplomatic category. It has never been used by GW. Making a "Southern Realms" race without giving them all of the cool stuff from the Dogs of War range would be super unsatisfying. I'd rather get one really good pack than two mediocre ones.
  • AxiosXiphos#9040AxiosXiphos#9040 Registered Users Posts: 10,986
    edited October 2020
    Ol_Nessie said:

    ArneSo said:

    Like others already pointed out, DoW have absolutely zero connection to the Empire so they make zero sense as the preorder bonus that would basically reuse existing empire stuff.

    Both WoC and Norsca only got like 5 new units with their Race Pack while the rest was copy and pasted or in WoCs case already existed.

    You cannot do that for DoW since their roster should be completely unique similar to DE and HE are unique. Would you argue that most DE units are just reskinned HE or WE units? I don’t think so.

    While I agree with you - we have to be realistic. If DoW are a pre-order then theres a very real chance many of their units will be reskins. In their DoW army book; much of their roster was near identical to the base Empire units - indeed there was also no miniatures for them so you either had to convert, use 3rd party or sue the normal empire miniatures.

    So it's not totally unrealistic to expect they might copy/paste a few options. As I say; most of the basic state troops and the basic knights could easily be ported across with a small reskin. You could also do the same for mortars & cannons if you were inclined.
    No miniatures?






    I could keep going, but then this would be one of the most image-dense comments on the forum.

    There are certainly some units that *could* be straight copied pasted from Empire to be fair. DoW could easily have Archers, Crossbowmen, Swordsmen, Pistoliers and Empire knights copied across with small reskins and they would work perfectly fine.

    There are no Empire Archers, Swordsmen, or Pistoliers in the official DoW roster. Heck, even their Heavy Cavalry differ in equipment. Besides, when and if CA decides to implement them one of the most paramount tasks is going to be making them play and feel distinct from the Empire. Plagiarizing all of those units and just applying a simple reskin won't achieve that. It won't be "perfectly fine."
    I think you have misinterpreted what I meant by no miniatures. The generic DoW roster did not have any miniatures only the Regiments of Renown.

    Their generic infantry & cavalry could only be used by using other factions units which were converted.

    When I played dogs of war on tabeltop I ended up using a lot of empire figures, state troops, cannons and the knights as their was not an official alternative other then the unique versions (which you needed for that exact purpose).

    Now arguably they can (and should) reverse engineer units from these RoR. So perhaps their generic pikemen can look something like the Alcanti fellowship and elite pikemen (or armoured) like Riccos Republic Guard but without the additional flairs... but it's all going to have to be effectively made from scratch.
  • Ol_Nessie#9894Ol_Nessie#9894 Registered Users Posts: 4,310

    Ol_Nessie said:

    ArneSo said:

    Like others already pointed out, DoW have absolutely zero connection to the Empire so they make zero sense as the preorder bonus that would basically reuse existing empire stuff.

    Both WoC and Norsca only got like 5 new units with their Race Pack while the rest was copy and pasted or in WoCs case already existed.

    You cannot do that for DoW since their roster should be completely unique similar to DE and HE are unique. Would you argue that most DE units are just reskinned HE or WE units? I don’t think so.

    While I agree with you - we have to be realistic. If DoW are a pre-order then theres a very real chance many of their units will be reskins. In their DoW army book; much of their roster was near identical to the base Empire units - indeed there was also no miniatures for them so you either had to convert, use 3rd party or sue the normal empire miniatures.

    So it's not totally unrealistic to expect they might copy/paste a few options. As I say; most of the basic state troops and the basic knights could easily be ported across with a small reskin. You could also do the same for mortars & cannons if you were inclined.
    No miniatures?






    I could keep going, but then this would be one of the most image-dense comments on the forum.

    There are certainly some units that *could* be straight copied pasted from Empire to be fair. DoW could easily have Archers, Crossbowmen, Swordsmen, Pistoliers and Empire knights copied across with small reskins and they would work perfectly fine.

    There are no Empire Archers, Swordsmen, or Pistoliers in the official DoW roster. Heck, even their Heavy Cavalry differ in equipment. Besides, when and if CA decides to implement them one of the most paramount tasks is going to be making them play and feel distinct from the Empire. Plagiarizing all of those units and just applying a simple reskin won't achieve that. It won't be "perfectly fine."
    I think you have misinterpreted what I meant by no miniatures. The generic DoW roster did not have any miniatures only the Regiments of Renown.

    Their generic infantry & cavalry could only be used by using other factions units which were converted.
    Really, that was your ONLY option? You couldn't use the DoW miniatures as stand-ins for their generic counterparts? Especially considering they were the only minis in WH with actual pikes?

    It was honestly super simple. You buy the RoR minis but assemble and paint them in such a way that they're different from the RoRs themselves. Or simply just declare that your unit of Alcatani Fellowship or Voland's Venators were generic Pikemen or generic Heavy Cavalry.
  • Ol_Nessie#9894Ol_Nessie#9894 Registered Users Posts: 4,310

    When I played dogs of war on tabeltop I ended up using a lot of empire figures, state troops, cannons and the knights as their was not an official alternative other then the unique versions (which you needed for that exact purpose).

    Now arguably they can (and should) reverse engineer units from these RoR. So perhaps their generic pikemen can look something like the Alcanti fellowship and elite pikemen (or armoured) like Riccos Republic Guard but without the additional flairs... but it's all going to have to be effectively made from scratch.

    You didn't have to use the Alcatani Fellowship ONLY as the Alcatani Fellowship. If you said they were generic Pikemen, then that's what they were for that particular game. This applied to hundreds of models in TT. If you bought a Slayer character that said "Daemon Slayer" on the blister pack it wasn't like you couldn't use that model as a Dragon Slayer or even just a unit champion. A "General of the Empire" model could just as easily be an Empire Captain and so on.

    The generic models for a TW DoW race will probably look nearly identical to the TT RoR units. For one thing, TW RoR units are simply just recolored and reskinned versions of their generic counterparts. It'll be the same thing in reverse if they're introduced to TW. The RoRs will have a few unique colors and in some cases equipment but the generic versions will be based on the models CA has at hand, namely the DoW range of miniatures, not Empire conversions or whatever.
  • AxiosXiphos#9040AxiosXiphos#9040 Registered Users Posts: 10,986
    Ol_Nessie said:

    Ol_Nessie said:

    ArneSo said:

    Like others already pointed out, DoW have absolutely zero connection to the Empire so they make zero sense as the preorder bonus that would basically reuse existing empire stuff.

    Both WoC and Norsca only got like 5 new units with their Race Pack while the rest was copy and pasted or in WoCs case already existed.

    You cannot do that for DoW since their roster should be completely unique similar to DE and HE are unique. Would you argue that most DE units are just reskinned HE or WE units? I don’t think so.

    While I agree with you - we have to be realistic. If DoW are a pre-order then theres a very real chance many of their units will be reskins. In their DoW army book; much of their roster was near identical to the base Empire units - indeed there was also no miniatures for them so you either had to convert, use 3rd party or sue the normal empire miniatures.

    So it's not totally unrealistic to expect they might copy/paste a few options. As I say; most of the basic state troops and the basic knights could easily be ported across with a small reskin. You could also do the same for mortars & cannons if you were inclined.
    No miniatures?






    I could keep going, but then this would be one of the most image-dense comments on the forum.

    There are certainly some units that *could* be straight copied pasted from Empire to be fair. DoW could easily have Archers, Crossbowmen, Swordsmen, Pistoliers and Empire knights copied across with small reskins and they would work perfectly fine.

    There are no Empire Archers, Swordsmen, or Pistoliers in the official DoW roster. Heck, even their Heavy Cavalry differ in equipment. Besides, when and if CA decides to implement them one of the most paramount tasks is going to be making them play and feel distinct from the Empire. Plagiarizing all of those units and just applying a simple reskin won't achieve that. It won't be "perfectly fine."
    I think you have misinterpreted what I meant by no miniatures. The generic DoW roster did not have any miniatures only the Regiments of Renown.

    Their generic infantry & cavalry could only be used by using other factions units which were converted.
    Really, that was your ONLY option? You couldn't use the DoW miniatures as stand-ins for their generic counterparts? Especially considering they were the only minis in WH with actual pikes?

    It was honestly super simple. You buy the RoR minis but assemble and paint them in such a way that they're different from the RoRs themselves. Or simply just declare that your unit of Alcatani Fellowship or Voland's Venators were generic Pikemen or generic Heavy Cavalry.
    Two problems with that.

    First of all the RoR minis I was using to represent the actual RoR as much as possible.

    Second those things are prohibitively expensive and awkward to collect. They came in blister packs that were (if memory serves) about £7-10 for 3 metal figures. A regiment in Tabletop can be anywhere between 16 and 30ish models. The means one regiment alone *could* cost anywhere from £40 - £80 plus you needed to buy the command sprue/box which was normally £15 quid plus.

    Not to mention some regiments *only* had command sprues; so you would end up with multiple musicians, banner bearers and sergeants etc;



    Also this was back before online shopping was really taking off - meaning finding these was difficult enough as it is. There was dozens - not hundreds (or even thousands) of potential retailers online; meaning you had to look for them in person in wargaming conventions or stores.

    Basically it was functionally impossible; there was not enough money/time in the world to make a full army of these figures *and* again for the generic versions as well. Not to mention some DoW units didn't even have a RoR version (Crossbows) for example. As the RoR versions were unique with shields (or even wings).

    So to answer your question; yes you had to use other figures.
  • Djau#5149Djau#5149 Registered Users Posts: 13,293
    DoW only work if they come with Tilea, Estalia etc pike-and-shot list + the DoW mercenaries as the amy list.

  • Ol_Nessie#9894Ol_Nessie#9894 Registered Users Posts: 4,310

    Two problems with that.

    First of all the RoR minis I was using to represent the actual RoR as much as possible.

    Second those things are prohibitively expensive and awkward to collect. They came in blister packs that were (if memory serves) about £7-10 for 3 metal figures. A regiment in Tabletop can be anywhere between 16 and 30ish models. The means one regiment alone *could* cost anywhere from £40 - £80 plus you needed to buy the command sprue/box which was normally £15 quid plus.

    Warhammer was expensive and yes apparently bears do in fact sh** in the woods. Also, most of those regiments were sold in boxed sets so you could in fact buy them in bulk.









    Not to mention some regiments *only* had command sprues; so you would end up with multiple musicians, banner bearers and sergeants etc;



    Also this was back before online shopping was really taking off - meaning finding these was difficult enough as it is. There was dozens - not hundreds (or even thousands) of potential retailers online; meaning you had to look for them in person in wargaming conventions or stores.

    Basically it was functionally impossible; there was not enough money/time in the world to make a full army of these figures *and* again for the generic versions as well. Not to mention some DoW units didn't even have a RoR version (Crossbows) for example. As the RoR versions were unique with shields (or even wings).

    So to answer your question; yes you had to use other figures.

    If you wanted to have a unit of both the RoR and its generic version in the same army, yea you'd either have to buy twice as many models or get creative. But that didn't mean that your regiment of Ricco's Republican Guard couldn't be dual purposed, functioning as the RoR for one battle and as generic Pikemen the next.

    "Not to mention some DoW units didn't even have a RoR version (Crossbows) for example. As the RoR versions were unique with shields (or even wings)."

    I guess you've never heard of the Marksmen of Miragliano then...



  • AxiosXiphos#9040AxiosXiphos#9040 Registered Users Posts: 10,986
    edited October 2020
    Ol_Nessie said:

    Two problems with that.

    First of all the RoR minis I was using to represent the actual RoR as much as possible.

    Second those things are prohibitively expensive and awkward to collect. They came in blister packs that were (if memory serves) about £7-10 for 3 metal figures. A regiment in Tabletop can be anywhere between 16 and 30ish models. The means one regiment alone *could* cost anywhere from £40 - £80 plus you needed to buy the command sprue/box which was normally £15 quid plus.

    Warhammer was expensive and yes apparently bears do in fact sh** in the woods. Also, most of those regiments were sold in boxed sets so you could in fact buy them in bulk.









    Not to mention some regiments *only* had command sprues; so you would end up with multiple musicians, banner bearers and sergeants etc;



    Also this was back before online shopping was really taking off - meaning finding these was difficult enough as it is. There was dozens - not hundreds (or even thousands) of potential retailers online; meaning you had to look for them in person in wargaming conventions or stores.

    Basically it was functionally impossible; there was not enough money/time in the world to make a full army of these figures *and* again for the generic versions as well. Not to mention some DoW units didn't even have a RoR version (Crossbows) for example. As the RoR versions were unique with shields (or even wings).

    So to answer your question; yes you had to use other figures.

    If you wanted to have a unit of both the RoR and its generic version in the same army, yea you'd either have to buy twice as many models or get creative. But that didn't mean that your regiment of Ricco's Republican Guard couldn't be dual purposed, functioning as the RoR for one battle and as generic Pikemen the next.

    "Not to mention some DoW units didn't even have a RoR version (Crossbows) for example. As the RoR versions were unique with shields (or even wings)."

    I guess you've never heard of the Marksmen of Miragliano then...



    Fair play about the marksmen - forgot about them. Though your other points don't really turn out. Those regiment box sets were not enough figures (and again had double command sprues). And this was only available for *some* of the units.

    This is all semantics anyway. These units were officially the RoR units - not the generic versions. You *could* use them; equally you could use another model. Either way you are using a proxy. We can argue which proxy is better; doesn't mean it's still not a proxy.

    The truth is these generic DoW did not have an official miniature associated with them - and that's just fact, You can't really debate that. I would *hope* CA use the RoR to 'Reverse engineer' the appearances of the generic units - but that may well not happen.
  • DraculasaurusDraculasaurus Registered Users Posts: 4,771
    edited October 2020
    While I think it is likely that some minor factions will be represented by the Dogs of War, I think it's also worth asking what exactly we want the Dogs of War to be.

    Do we want them to be a race with their own unique identity, playstyle, and character?

    Or do we want them to be a grab bag for everything that didn't fit elsewhere?

    I don't think you can really have both. If you want to preserve any sense of the DoW as a unique race you'll need to be selective about what, exactly, gets added to their ranks and what doesn't.
  • Nyxilis#3646Nyxilis#3646 Registered Users Posts: 8,246

    Ol_Nessie said:

    Two problems with that.

    First of all the RoR minis I was using to represent the actual RoR as much as possible.

    Second those things are prohibitively expensive and awkward to collect. They came in blister packs that were (if memory serves) about £7-10 for 3 metal figures. A regiment in Tabletop can be anywhere between 16 and 30ish models. The means one regiment alone *could* cost anywhere from £40 - £80 plus you needed to buy the command sprue/box which was normally £15 quid plus.

    Warhammer was expensive and yes apparently bears do in fact sh** in the woods. Also, most of those regiments were sold in boxed sets so you could in fact buy them in bulk.









    Not to mention some regiments *only* had command sprues; so you would end up with multiple musicians, banner bearers and sergeants etc;



    Also this was back before online shopping was really taking off - meaning finding these was difficult enough as it is. There was dozens - not hundreds (or even thousands) of potential retailers online; meaning you had to look for them in person in wargaming conventions or stores.

    Basically it was functionally impossible; there was not enough money/time in the world to make a full army of these figures *and* again for the generic versions as well. Not to mention some DoW units didn't even have a RoR version (Crossbows) for example. As the RoR versions were unique with shields (or even wings).

    So to answer your question; yes you had to use other figures.

    If you wanted to have a unit of both the RoR and its generic version in the same army, yea you'd either have to buy twice as many models or get creative. But that didn't mean that your regiment of Ricco's Republican Guard couldn't be dual purposed, functioning as the RoR for one battle and as generic Pikemen the next.

    "Not to mention some DoW units didn't even have a RoR version (Crossbows) for example. As the RoR versions were unique with shields (or even wings)."

    I guess you've never heard of the Marksmen of Miragliano then...



    Fair play about the marksmen - forgot about them. Though your other points don't really turn out. Those regiment box sets were not enough figures (and again had double command sprues). And this was only available for *some* of the units.

    This is all semantics anyway. These units were officially the RoR units - not the generic versions. You *could* use them; equally you could use another model. Either way you are using a proxy. We can argue which proxy is better; doesn't mean it's still not a proxy.

    The truth is these generic DoW did not have an official miniature associated with them - and that's just fact, You can't really debate that. I would *hope* CA use the RoR to 'Reverse engineer' the appearances of the generic units - but that may well not happen.
    Except he's very much right, as a long time player of the game and the DoW being one of my favorite races. That's entirely what people did. When Nessie speaks you can very much tell he was playing the table top game and got to see what people were actually doing.

    Also, all of which was able to be used in sanctioned tournaments. Which had strict guidelines when you participated in an actual Games Workshop event.

    It should also be noticed that CA has made units that never had a figure for the TT, never had rules for Warhammer Fantasy, were only kitbashes, shared models, or were never tournament legal.
  • Ol_Nessie#9894Ol_Nessie#9894 Registered Users Posts: 4,310


    Fair play about the marksmen - forgot about them. Though your other points don't really turn out. Those regiment box sets were not enough figures (and again had double command sprues). And this was only available for *some* of the units.













    Did I miss any?

    This is all semantics anyway. These units were officially the RoR units - not the generic versions. You *could* use them; equally you could use another model. Either way you are using a proxy. We can argue which proxy is better; doesn't mean it's still not a proxy.

    The truth is these generic DoW did not have an official miniature associated with them - and that's just fact, You can't really debate that. I would *hope* CA use the RoR to 'Reverse engineer' the appearances of the generic units - but that may well not happen.

    I think one proxy is objectively better than the other for what we're discussing here. It seems like you're suggesting that the fact you could use Empire minis as a proxy for DoW is somehow justification for why they should get copy/pasted Empire units like archers, swordsmen, and pistoliers in Total War. If that's not the case, tell me, because that's ludicrous.
  • AxiosXiphos#9040AxiosXiphos#9040 Registered Users Posts: 10,986
    edited October 2020
    Ol_Nessie said:


    Fair play about the marksmen - forgot about them. Though your other points don't really turn out. Those regiment box sets were not enough figures (and again had double command sprues). And this was only available for *some* of the units.













    Did I miss any?

    This is all semantics anyway. These units were officially the RoR units - not the generic versions. You *could* use them; equally you could use another model. Either way you are using a proxy. We can argue which proxy is better; doesn't mean it's still not a proxy.

    The truth is these generic DoW did not have an official miniature associated with them - and that's just fact, You can't really debate that. I would *hope* CA use the RoR to 'Reverse engineer' the appearances of the generic units - but that may well not happen.

    I think one proxy is objectively better than the other for what we're discussing here. It seems like you're suggesting that the fact you could use Empire minis as a proxy for DoW is somehow justification for why they should get copy/pasted Empire units like archers, swordsmen, and pistoliers in Total War. If that's not the case, tell me, because that's ludicrous.
    I'm saying there are units in the DoW roster which are obejctively identical or near identical to units in the empire roster. This whole *which model is better* argument is completely irrelevant. Good for you if you could afford the time and money to collect a full metal army this way. Even the GW painters used Empire models and/or conversions;







    Now If/when they come many of this units will use the same animations, skeletons and largely identical state lines. They *may* be reskinned and *may* have different special rules (much as Norsca Marauders get the rage mechanic).

    The point is much of the potential DoW roster is a translation from an existing unit in game instead of an entirely new one.
    Nyxilis said:

    Ol_Nessie said:

    Two problems with that.

    First of all the RoR minis I was using to represent the actual RoR as much as possible.

    Second those things are prohibitively expensive and awkward to collect. They came in blister packs that were (if memory serves) about £7-10 for 3 metal figures. A regiment in Tabletop can be anywhere between 16 and 30ish models. The means one regiment alone *could* cost anywhere from £40 - £80 plus you needed to buy the command sprue/box which was normally £15 quid plus.

    Warhammer was expensive and yes apparently bears do in fact sh** in the woods. Also, most of those regiments were sold in boxed sets so you could in fact buy them in bulk.









    Not to mention some regiments *only* had command sprues; so you would end up with multiple musicians, banner bearers and sergeants etc;



    Also this was back before online shopping was really taking off - meaning finding these was difficult enough as it is. There was dozens - not hundreds (or even thousands) of potential retailers online; meaning you had to look for them in person in wargaming conventions or stores.

    Basically it was functionally impossible; there was not enough money/time in the world to make a full army of these figures *and* again for the generic versions as well. Not to mention some DoW units didn't even have a RoR version (Crossbows) for example. As the RoR versions were unique with shields (or even wings).

    So to answer your question; yes you had to use other figures.

    If you wanted to have a unit of both the RoR and its generic version in the same army, yea you'd either have to buy twice as many models or get creative. But that didn't mean that your regiment of Ricco's Republican Guard couldn't be dual purposed, functioning as the RoR for one battle and as generic Pikemen the next.

    "Not to mention some DoW units didn't even have a RoR version (Crossbows) for example. As the RoR versions were unique with shields (or even wings)."

    I guess you've never heard of the Marksmen of Miragliano then...



    Fair play about the marksmen - forgot about them. Though your other points don't really turn out. Those regiment box sets were not enough figures (and again had double command sprues). And this was only available for *some* of the units.

    This is all semantics anyway. These units were officially the RoR units - not the generic versions. You *could* use them; equally you could use another model. Either way you are using a proxy. We can argue which proxy is better; doesn't mean it's still not a proxy.

    The truth is these generic DoW did not have an official miniature associated with them - and that's just fact, You can't really debate that. I would *hope* CA use the RoR to 'Reverse engineer' the appearances of the generic units - but that may well not happen.
    Except he's very much right, as a long time player of the game and the DoW being one of my favorite races. That's entirely what people did. When Nessie speaks you can very much tell he was playing the table top game and got to see what people were actually doing.

    Also, all of which was able to be used in sanctioned tournaments. Which had strict guidelines when you participated in an actual Games Workshop event.

    It should also be noticed that CA has made units that never had a figure for the TT, never had rules for Warhammer Fantasy, were only kitbashes, shared models, or were never tournament legal.
    I never argued you couldn't use these figures. I am saying CA will likely use the core Empire Roster as a base if they make DoW.

    For example if I was CA and I was trying to make the largest DoW roster I could as easy as I could...

    I'd make a new reskin of the Empire state troop with more Tilean appropiate equipment. Then I would straight up copy the following units with the new skin;

    Swordsmen,
    Spearmen,
    Archers
    Crossbowmen
    Halberds
    Mortars
    Cannons

    Then I would reskin the Empire Knights to make Broken Lances and reskin free-company to make Duellists.

    That gives me a good starting point for the roster before I even start adding new units - you may not like it but you can guarantee this is very likely how CA would approach it. It's how they made Norsca.

    FYI this is also how the current Southern Realms mod was made. Now CA *could* start from scratch and maybe this is what they will do; but when you can make 7-9 new units with literally 1 or 2 reskins; I can easily see where that might lead (especially if DoW are a race pack not campaign).

    Summary:

    - CA can and will reuse existing assets when they can.
    - CA will be borrowing existing skeletons, animations and textures from the Empire regardless.
    - If DoW come as race pack - CA may very well copy certain units almost directly from the Empire roster and then modify them appropriately. Much as they did with Norsca.
    - If DoW come as a campaign pack - then hopefully CA will build more of the roster from scratch.
    - Either way CA will certainly use the existing artwork and 'reverse engineer' the RoR units to generate ideas for the general units appearance/themes.
    Post edited by AxiosXiphos#9040 on
  • Nyxilis#3646Nyxilis#3646 Registered Users Posts: 8,246
    Other than they are likely to reskin humans ultimately many of those are going to use new animations and gear. What you propose is an exceedingly lazy stretch.
  • Ol_Nessie#9894Ol_Nessie#9894 Registered Users Posts: 4,310

    I'm saying there are units in the DoW roster which are obejctively identical or near identical to units in the empire roster. This whole *which model is better* argument is completely irrelevant. Good for you if you could afford the time and money to collect a full metal army this way. Even the GW painters used Empire models and/or conversions;

    Now If/when they come many of this units will use the same animations, skeletons and largely identical state lines. They *may* be reskinned and *may* have different special rules (much as Norsca Marauders get the rage mechanic).

    The point is much of the potential DoW roster is a translation from an existing unit in game instead of an entirely new one.

    -snip-

    I never argued you couldn't use these figures. I am saying CA will likely use the core Empire Roster as a base if they make DoW.

    For example if I was CA and I was trying to make the largest DoW roster I could as easy as I could...

    I'd make a new reskin of the Empire state troop with more Tilean appropiate equipment. Then I would straight up copy the following units with the new skin;

    Swordsmen,
    Spearmen,
    Archers
    Crossbowmen
    Halberds
    Mortars
    Cannons

    Then I would reskin the Empire Knights to make Broken Lances and reskin free-company to make Duellists.

    That gives me a good starting point for the roster before I even start adding new units - you may not like it but you can guarantee this is very likely how CA would approach it. It's how they made Norsca.

    FYI this is also how the current Southern Realms mod was made. Now CA *could* start from scratch and maybe this is what they will do; but when you can make 7-9 new units with literally 1 or 2 reskins; I can easily see where that might lead (especially if DoW are a race pack not campaign).
    Your version of TW:WH Dogs of War sucks, no offense. Thank goodness you're not part of the new content team. What you're essentially saying is that CA should put as little effort as possible into the roster, basically just copying Empire state troops and giving them a different name. That's almost exactly what we have now in the "Southern Realms" factions. Never mind that the official DoW list didn't even have unit options for "swordsmen," "spearmen," "archers," "halberds," or "mortars," even the units that did exist that most closely approximate those Empire units had fundamental and role-defining differences.

    The only unit from the roster that is identical to an Empire unit is the Crossbowmen. They had the same stat-line and the same equipment. That's it. Every other unit for which a comparison could be drawn was either equipped differently, had different stats, or had distinguishing special rules.

    - Pikemen =/= Spearmen. Pikes are in fact quite different from spears historically speaking. A spear generally weighed between 2 and 4 pounds and was between 6 and 8 feet. Pikes could weigh upwards of 14 pounds and were anywhere from 13 to 25 feet long. As such they required two hands and thus precluded the use of a shield. TT acknowledged these differences and classified them as a distinct weapon from spears. Not only that, but the DoW unit themselves had an option for heavy armor, furthering distinguishing them from Empire Spearmen.

    - Duelists =/= Swordsmen/Free Company. DoW duelists had 3 different equipment options (2 hand weapons, HW and buckler, HW and pistol) in addition to the option to carry throwing knives. So right off the bat there'd be issues in just using an Empire unit as a substitute. We'd completely miss out on defining characteristics of the unit. Duelists also had the skirmishers special rule from TT, further separating them as their own distinct unit.

    - Paymasters Bodyguard =/= Halberdiers. This one's pretty simple to debunk. PM BG could take heavy armor, had a better TT stat-line than Empire Halberdiers, and as bodyguards they benefited from the stubborn rule.

    Using Norscan Marauders as an example to model DoW on is flawed for a few reasons. First of all, the Marauders of Norsca and WoC are supposed to be the same unit. The Marauders that fill out a WoC army are drawn from the very same Norscan tribes themselves. Secondly, from a practical perspective CA had to save on cost because they were introducing several brand new models with the race like the Mammoth, Fimir, and Skinwolves. There's not a whole lot of modelling/animation intensive units for the DoW.

    Now if all you mean is that you expect CA to reuse some rigs and animations to create the troops, that's fine. Nobody is expecting they start from square one, building a brand new skeleton with entirely unique fighting animations for every single new unit. But if the race were nothing but a bunch of units that are identical to their Empire versions in everything (including stat-lines) but name and uniform color, that would suck. Nobody wants an Empire clone for DoW.
  • PraiseSigmawPraiseSigmaw Registered Users Posts: 3,059

    There are certainly some units that *could* be straight copied pasted from Empire to be fair. DoW could easily have Archers, Crossbowmen, Swordsmen, Pistoliers and Empire knights copied across with small reskins and they would work perfectly fine.

    Pikemen need a new animation set and I'd love to see some unique mechanics with them - perhaps in line with pike formations we get in other total war games.

    I'm also not so sure about having that many albion / amazon units. I think more likely the DoW will have a core roster and then some form of regional recruitment showed off by the greenskins rather then being LL specific. Afterall the most likely candidiates for a dogs of war pre-order are Borgio, Luccrezzia & Lorenzo or Pirazzo. Given that a pre-order pack is likely to only have 2 (maybe 3) LL at best; they need to be quite generic options

    Borgio - faction 'leader' style lord (aka Karl Franz, Leoncour, Tyrion etc)
    Luccrezzia - The caster lord (aka Teclic, Gelt, Morathi etc)
    Lorenzo - The Duellist lord (aka Lokhir, Sigvald, Khalida etc)

    These are the 3 most common 'archetypes' of lords and if I had to pick 3 without bias it would be these...

    However my heart wants Morgan Berhardt...

    Commander Bernhardt in Total War would be one of the happiest moments of my life.
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