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Treemen artillery? Wood elf artillery?

VildvargVildvarg Registered Users Posts: 477
Good morning everyone! Or at least herein the states.

So, I've seen a few people advocating for treemen rock throwers as artillery, so I thought I'd open a discussion about artillery in general related to our favorite keebler elves.

This is mostly a theoretical topic about discussing ideas for how this could work or wouldn't work.

Personally I understand the desire to have something resembling artillery but I do think it'd kind of mess with their skirmishing theme. What if it was based on a timed ability they could use to throw a projectile at artillery range but it had at least a 40-60 second cool down? It'd give something in a pinch and while you could make a line of treemen doing this they wouldn't have steady consistent artillery fire on their side.

What are your ideas? Would anything else fit better? Should they have artillery at all? Does it even matter that much?
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Comments

  • AxiosXiphosAxiosXiphos Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,602
    I'd like to see a treeman thrower to be honest; I don't know WE very well but I believe there was some version of this on the TT already. In addition the tree-spirits are sort of the opposite side of the 'skirmishing' WE element. Okay Dryads are still fast but tree-kin and treemen are tanky, slow beat-sticks. I think adding an option in to play the WE as a more 'conventional' static army by leaning more into the tree-spirits would be very interesting.
  • GloatingSwineGloatingSwine Registered Users Posts: 611
    TBH the biggest reason I think they need something like this is that Talsyn have no good answers to siege battles.

    Argwylon can doomstack treemen and roflstomp them, but with no way to remove towers and an archer focus, Talsyn are in serious trouble.

    Which adds to the "nothing to do" of the campaign, because expansion is a pain in the arse and its' much much better to try and avoid it by farming amber from a nice fat alliance.
  • Theo91Theo91 Registered Users Posts: 1,990
    Hmm I’m torn. I wouldn’t be strongly against it but I think not having artillery for wood elves makes them more unique. Generally I would prefer it if all the factions don’t converge in terms of play style
  • VildvargVildvarg Registered Users Posts: 477

    TBH the biggest reason I think they need something like this is that Talsyn have no good answers to siege battles.

    Argwylon can doomstack treemen and roflstomp them, but with no way to remove towers and an archer focus, Talsyn are in serious trouble.

    Which adds to the "nothing to do" of the campaign, because expansion is a pain in the arse and its' much much better to try and avoid it by farming amber from a nice fat alliance.

    That's a decent take, to be honest I've never touched a wood elf campaign that wasn't Argwylon and forest spirit loaded.
  • jamreal18jamreal18 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 9,942
    Come on.

    If Wood Elves would also have Giant thrower, it will make Cygor unit from Beastmen common and not unique anymore.
  • VildvargVildvarg Registered Users Posts: 477
    jamreal18 said:

    Come on.

    If Wood Elves would also have Giant thrower, it will make Cygor unit from Beastmen common and not unique anymore.

    Is throwing a large object really that unique of an idea in the first place? My apologies if that was missed sarcasm, I'm still going through my morning coffee.
  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Registered Users Posts: 21,821
    Please no artillery.
    Thanks CA for working with Epic Games to give us Troy for free!
  • jamreal18jamreal18 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 9,942
    Vildvarg said:

    jamreal18 said:

    Come on.

    If Wood Elves would also have Giant thrower, it will make Cygor unit from Beastmen common and not unique anymore.

    Is throwing a large object really that unique of an idea in the first place? My apologies if that was missed sarcasm, I'm still going through my morning coffee.
    Kinda.
    As Beastmen, they have this. No need to give every race units with the same purpose.
  • Barbarian BorelordBarbarian Borelord Registered Users Posts: 40
    Artillery as in something like a ballista wouldn't fit in the Welf army, being all about speed and mobility. A treeman tossing rocks could do, though with their archers and light cavalry I don't think the Welves really need it in a field battle. But sieges are a different matter, I think they do need something to help them out there... How about a treeman using a log as a battering ram, that can also take out walls and towers?
  • UberReptilianUberReptilian U.S.S.RRegistered Users Posts: 1,988
    edited October 28
    jamreal18 said:

    Come on.

    If Wood Elves would also have Giant thrower, it will make Cygor unit from Beastmen common and not unique anymore.

    I actually think it does the opposite. Having a Treeman throw a boulder goes too far, but it's been suggested giving it Blackbriar javelins (yes I know this was an ammo type for SoT don't kill me). This would make seiges actually viable, but also be a reflection of a Cygor. I don't see why Beastmen having a seige monster is fine, but for WE it's a bad idea. Having it be a Treeman means it's still mobile so it doesn't contradict the WE playstyle.
  • VildvargVildvarg Registered Users Posts: 477

    Artillery as in something like a ballista wouldn't fit in the Welf army, being all about speed and mobility. A treeman tossing rocks could do, though with their archers and light cavalry I don't think the Welves really need it in a field battle. But sieges are a different matter, I think they do need something to help them out there... How about a treeman using a log as a battering ram, that can also take out walls and towers?

    If the problem is that something is needed in sieges why not give treemen wallbreaker and allow them to not only smash gates but break walls and towers?
  • Giveaway412Giveaway412 Registered Users Posts: 461
    I wouldn't mind seeing Treeman with Blackbriar Javelins, as a sort of a high-tier bolt thrower that would keep the Cygor unique. Anything other than that I'd rather not mess with.
  • PocmanPocman Registered Users Posts: 3,634
    Hope not. I mean, treemen with ranged attacks would be nice, but short range ones.

    Let's keep the assymetric design.
  • DraculasaurusDraculasaurus Registered Users Posts: 4,469
    I think it's unlikely.
  • Mogwai_ManMogwai_Man Registered Users Posts: 4,097
    They aren't supposed to get artillery. So no.
  • HelhoundHelhound Registered Users Posts: 4,028

    TBH the biggest reason I think they need something like this is that Talsyn have no good answers to siege battles.

    Argwylon can doomstack treemen and roflstomp them, but with no way to remove towers and an archer focus, Talsyn are in serious trouble.

    Which adds to the "nothing to do" of the campaign, because expansion is a pain in the arse and its' much much better to try and avoid it by farming amber from a nice fat alliance.

    The opposite of this is true, Welf archers have just enough range to be able to arc across the walls. They'll kill everything hanging out on the walls long before the towers deal enough damage to be a problem. With enough ammo to spare to kill everything hanging around inside.

    That being said, not sure if I'd go with Treekin artillery. I do think we should get some kind of ranged Treekin, but I'm of the mindset that it should be short range extremely high damage. Think Treekin Javelin throwers, whose "javelin" is a summoned stake of brambles about the size of a telephone pole that they then hurl at a something. Giving them artillery might encourage people to move away from skirmishing the welfs.
  • DeadpoolSWDeadpoolSW Registered Users Posts: 264
    Their archers are long enough range that they might as well be artillery
    Nagash will rule again!

    Justice for Araby, Albion, Amazons, Halflings, Cathay, Nippon, Ind & the Hobgoblin Khanate!
  • lucibuislucibuis Registered Users Posts: 4,753
    They do need need a wall breaker unit, are they the only race to have none?
  • ErathilErathil Registered Users Posts: 933
    I'd like to see treemen with a ranged option (they had strangleroots as a shooting attack on the tabletop), but wood elves shouldn't have artillery.

    It's bad thematically, and it's bad for game design. One of the good counters to wood elf missile armies is artillery, and giving them an option there would undermine that design.
  • ThirdeyeThirdeye Registered Users Posts: 198
    edited October 28
    No, No, & No. Don't like it. Instead they should re-work the Amber mechanic (or remove it all-together, but that's unlikely) so you're not dependant on taking settlements. Instead they should get a high ambush chance in wooded areas. That should be their thing, Ambush attacks, and distroying armies that threaten their realm, not painting the map green.
    Post edited by Thirdeye on
  • Giveaway412Giveaway412 Registered Users Posts: 461
    lucibuis said:

    They do need need a wall breaker unit, are they the only race to have none?

    I'm pretty sure the only "wall breaker" unit is the Skaven Warp-grinders. Though I do think there should be more.
  • MagicspookMagicspook Registered Users Posts: 550
    edited October 29
    lucibuis said:

    They do need need a wall breaker unit, are they the only race to have none?

    Bro, there 1 unit in the entire game that can do that. I know you like hyperboles but this is a little too much.

    Edit: misunderstanding
    Post edited by Magicspook on
  • RomeoRejectRomeoReject Registered Users Posts: 1,518
    Could just reskin a Bone Giant as a Treeman with a massive bow as well. Saves it from becoming a "true" artillery platform, keeping the Wood Elves unique, and saves it from becoming a Stonethrower, keeping the Beastmen unique.

    To be honest, I'm not particularly worried about stepping on the Cygor's toes too much, as I expect if Albion ever comes, Stonethrower Giants will come right alongside them.
  • DraculasaurusDraculasaurus Registered Users Posts: 4,469
    edited October 28
    I'm always super suspicious of what a race "needs" or doesn't need when it comes to new units. To my mind adding new units should not normally be about plugging a hole in a roster, but instead providing a new tactical role that provides an alternative to an existing unit while not outright duplicating that unit's role.

    Still, if we're going to argue "need," I think the Wood Elves really only need three things:
    • Some more forest spirit units, preferably no trees, just for added visual variety
    • One or more melee AP units that don't deal magic damage, to help against dwarfs in MP
    • One or more fast-moving cavalry or flanking units, probably at mid to low tier, to provide a cheaper alternative to Wild Riders in MP and the early SP campaign.
    That's it, and they have a few decent options to cover all of those bases. Anything added beyond that will hopefully open up new tactical options without closing any intentional weaknesses in the roster.
  • GloatingSwineGloatingSwine Registered Users Posts: 611
    lucibuis said:

    They do need need a wall breaker unit, are they the only race to have none?

    Vampire Counts don't have one either, but they don't care, they just pile a chodstack of skeletons in the front door and Wind of Death anything that says otherwise.
  • lucibuislucibuis Registered Users Posts: 4,753

    lucibuis said:

    They do need need a wall breaker unit, are they the only race to have none?

    Bro, there 1 unit in the entire game that can do that. I know you like hyperboles but this is a little too much.
    Including artillery?
  • SakuraHeinzSakuraHeinz Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,711
    Treemen had the strangleroots option which gives them a low range high damage range attack.
  • Ol_NessieOl_Nessie Registered Users Posts: 4,303
    edited October 28
    lucibuis said:

    lucibuis said:

    They do need need a wall breaker unit, are they the only race to have none?

    Bro, there 1 unit in the entire game that can do that. I know you like hyperboles but this is a little too much.
    Including artillery?
    In which case Vampire Counts and Norsca are in the same boat as Wood Elves. Which at the end of the day is kinda moot since destroying walls is a super inefficient means of siege-craft. Use your monsters to knock down gates, infantry to climb walls, flyers to attack exposed enemies, etc.

    I'm always super suspicious of what a race "needs" or doesn't need when it comes to new units. To my mind adding new units should not normally be about plugging a hole in a roster, but instead providing a new tactical role that provides an alternative to an existing unit while not outright duplicating that unit's role.

    Still, if we're going to argue "need," I think the Wood Elves really only need three things:

    • Some more forest spirit units, preferably no trees, just for added visual variety
    • One or more melee AP units that don't deal magic damage, to help against dwarfs in MP
    • One or more fast-moving cavalry or flanking units, probably at mid to low tier, to provide a cheaper alternative to Wild Riders in MP and the early SP campaign.
    That's it, and they have a few decent options to cover all of those bases. Anything added beyond that will hopefully open up new tactical options without closing any intentional weaknesses in the roster.
    Eternal Guard, Wardancers with spears, and Wildwood Rangers all deal AP while not doing magic damage. How much more do they need?
    Build a Slayer Hero and make Miners, Rangers, and Irondrakes great again! Thorek Ironbrow 2020

  • Warlord_Lu_BuWarlord_Lu_Bu Registered Users Posts: 2,494
    Wood Elf mobile artillery, yes, that would be excellent. As a force that seems to be low in unit count, I feel terrible sending dozens of elves to their doom (watch towers) and on the walls to fight bloody battles in melee, when ranged attacks can solve all of those terrible issues in a true wood elf fashion. The Trees would be a little more useful than too, instead of just giant pin cushions or barricades.

    I feel like there needs to be more tree variants so that a mainly forest spirit army can be made in case we desired to RP a WE civil war in favour of Drycha and the Forest Spirits. That way Elves can take the place of a support in this Elf/Forest collaboration and the WE queen can take her "leaf".
    "I am the punishment of Tengri, if you had not sinned, he would not have sent me against you." - Chenghis Khan Temujin
  • XxXScorpionXxXXxXScorpionXxX Registered Users Posts: 1,752
    I mean, a way stalker is basically an artillery piece with legs.
    Request scorched body textures, poisoned dying animations for infantry's skeletons, a blood slider that allows us to control how much blood appears in battle and make proper death animations for all ethereal units so they vanish for Blood for the Blood God 3.
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