Unicorns

Sarmatianns#6760

Unicorn mounts have been really underwhelming since they were introduced, with one exception, Fay Enchantress' unique mount, Silvaron. Not even increase in price of regular horse mounts from 100 to 200 did anything to increase appeal of unicorns. WE DLC is an excellent opportunity to seriously buff Unicorn mounts, even if it means price increase.

First off all, unicorns need to get more speed. It is lore accurate and they were, iirc, fastest land mount on TT, with M10, so faster than any horse. In game, they have a speed of 74, while unbarded horses have 92.

Other than speed increase to 92, they need to pack a bit more punch, adding some AP (50 or so do non combat characters), damage to the rider and higher CB, probably somewhere in the Wild Rider range 60-65. Furthermore, they need to offer a bit more HP increase and mass increase. They currently have 750 mass, while something like Nehekhara Horsemen have 900.

In return, increase price to 400, with Silvaron going for 450, and getting some nerfs as well. Regular unicorns should also be available to Glady. That part might be somewhat contrary to the lore, but, it would certainly be an interesting option.

So, unicorn mount for spellsingers and prophetess:

Speed: 74 -> 92
HP bonus: 738 -> 850
Damage bonus: +50 AP damage
Magic resistance: 40% -> 35%
LD: +5 bonus
Charge Bonus: 44 - > 62
Mass: 750 -> 1000
Price: 300 -> 400

Fey & Silvaron*
Speed: 95
HP bonus: 666 -> 738
Damage bonus: +50 AP damage
Magic resistance: 60% -> 50%
LD: +5 bonus
Charge Bonus: 74
Mass: 750 -> 1000
Price: 300 -> 450

Glady Unicorn:
Speed: 92
HP bonus: 850
Damage bonus: +150 AP, -100 WS
Magic resistance: 35%
LD: +5 bonus
Charge Bonus: 74
Mass: 1500
Price: 450

*Silvaron is stupidly underpriced at 300 for what it provides currently. Since it is Bretonnia, I included some buffs to go with price increase, with only one modest nerf, MR from 60% to 50%.

DaBoyzAreBackInTown#9604

Not sure about the size of the buffs, but they do seem a little underwhelming. Would agree to a price increase and buffs to go along with it, otherwise just some minor free buffs to the base mount.

eumaies#1128

no strong opinion, but seems like magic resist is what it's all about right? really depends on whether you're a faction that gets mage sniped. For instance if you're getting shot by arrows of kurnuous that's gotta be handy.

Compiled_with_LLVM

I agree that unicorn mounts need a rework because they have zero pick rate however I don't think that the price increase at a cost of better combat stats is a good idea for spellsingers/ damsels.

In most cases the role of your spellcaster is to stay alive and cast spells until WOM is depleted. You never want your caster to engage in melee until late game phase so overpaying for stats that don't make it more useful is not a good idea. I would advocate the increase of speed for these casters without the increase of the current cost.

There is a good choice between 200g 78 speed horse and 300g 92 speed +40% magic resist + 400hp unicorn.

If you increase the melee stats at a cost of +100g for unicorn then it seems still favoring the horse option.

UberReptilian#8431

Gib Prophetess mount also. Been long enough CA

Pocman#6295

The only reason silvarion is picked is because she does not have the option of a cheap horse.

Not being a footlord, specially for anyone with decent melee stats or, like in this case, a degeneration aura, is worth overpaying for.

AristodemosII

At least Unicorn mounts are not as useless as poor foot lords.

For only 300 gold you get:
-) 40% Magic Resistance.
-) Extra speed to run away.
-) Ability to pick targets unlike foot lord.
-) 40% Magic Resistance.

Most characters with a Unicorn also have a basic horse to choose from, except for the Fay who has her stupid degeneration aura and is far from weak. In the worst case nobody picks Unicorns.

yst#1879

First of all lets get one thing straight. Theres 2 unicorns.

One is bret other is welf. Both r VERY different. Spell singer has +12 MORE DEF than damsel, ure talking about making humans having stats of elf and vice versa.

Welf unicorn CAUSE FEAR.

Damsel unicorn does NOT cause fear

eumaies#1128

yst said:

First of all lets get one thing straight. Theres 2 unicorns.

One is bret other is welf. Both r VERY different. Spell singer has +12 MORE DEF than damsel, ure talking about making humans having stats of elf and vice versa.

Welf unicorn CAUSE FEAR.

Damsel unicorn does NOT cause fear

lol they stick a wooden stick on a horse's head and pretend it's a unicorn

Sarmatianns#6760

yst said:

First of all lets get one thing straight. Theres 2 unicorns.

One is bret other is welf. Both r VERY different. Spell singer has +12 MORE DEF than damsel, ure talking about making humans having stats of elf and vice versa.

Welf unicorn CAUSE FEAR.

Damsel unicorn does NOT cause fear

Unicorn mounts don't change MD for either spellsingers or prophetesses. They both remain what they were. Same with WS. Prophetess keeps her 285 (85 AP) while spellsingers keep 240 WS (60 AP).

But, yeah, it is weird that Bret unicorns don't cause fear. Don't know if that was done on purpose or an oversight.

Skill of a rider should still come into play. It would be silly if Glady on a unicorn (if it happens) had same combat stats as prophetess on a unicorn.

yst#1879

More welf manipulation lol, proly told bret thats a unicorn.

Ladys say it is. So it must be so.

#fakebretunicorn

Compiled_with_LLVM

Sarmatianns said:

Unicorn mounts don't change MD for either spellsingers or prophetesses. They both remain what they were. Same with WS. Prophetess keeps her 285 (85 AP) while spellsingers keep 240 WS (60 AP).

But, yeah, it is weird that Bret unicorns don't cause fear. Don't know if that was done on purpose or an oversight.

Skill of a rider should still come into play. It would be silly if Glady on a unicorn (if it happens) had same combat stats as prophetess on a unicorn.

Some mounts like Cold one options for DE sorceress and master don't give any stats as well... and that the reason why these mounts are greatly underused. It could be reasonable for mounts to add stats to what the original unit had without the mount.

yst said:

More welf manipulation lol, proly told bret thats a unicorn.
Ladys say it is. So it must be so.
#fakebretunicorn

That works when inspiring your stupid peasants. That doesn't work when your foes smell its fake.

Sarmatianns#6760

Well, it seems that mounts that are vaguely horse-like in shape or behaviour tend to have riders keep their original stats most of the time.

That group includes all horses, unicorns, pegasi, cold ones etc...

Monstrous mechanical mounts most often replace rider stats weapon profile, which is why they often reduce stats for combat characters but increase for non combat characters. Those would be Dragons, Eagles, chariots etc... The assumption probably is that it is the dragon doing the fighting, not the squishy mage on top.

Cold Ones don't change stats of sorceresses, but give them AP and increase armour by a significant margin, 10->60.

Unicorns could do the same, at least in regards of AP damage. They shouldn't increase armour by such a large amount, if at all.

saweendra#3399

Well there is actually two different types of unicorn species in wh its in storm of chaos supplement if recall all the unicorn debates in general fourm.

One is royal unicorn, other is smaller sub species

1. Damsel ride the second species
2. Welf ride the other one
3. Fay unicorn is fine its unique mount
4. Give prophetess unicorn.

Keep the two unicorn species unique.

saweendra#3399

yst said:

More welf manipulation lol, proly told bret thats a unicorn.

Ladys say it is. So it must be so.

#fakebretunicorn

It must have araloth plan, that welf need to be introduced to truffle hounds

yst#1879

Yea horse size mount barely ever change stats, silvaron does, the rest especialy on heroes prolly doesnt change much

Sarmatianns#6760

kasunrathnatunga said:

Well there is actually two different types of unicorn species in wh its in storm of chaos supplement if recall all the unicorn debates in general fourm.

One is royal unicorn, other is smaller sub species

1. Damsel ride the second species
2. Welf ride the other one
3. Fay unicorn is fine its unique mount
4. Give prophetess unicorn.

Keep the two unicorn species unique.

Ah, didn't know that.

So, Bretonnians get the cheap knock off version.

Silvaron is fine in terms of stats. It doesn't break anything... but 300 price is too low considering that's how much a prophetess pays for her unicorn. Also, I think Silvaron is actually CA's invention, like Quicksilver is for Gelt.

saweendra#3399

Sarmatianns said:

kasunrathnatunga said:

Well there is actually two different types of unicorn species in wh its in storm of chaos supplement if recall all the unicorn debates in general fourm.

One is royal unicorn, other is smaller sub species

1. Damsel ride the second species
2. Welf ride the other one
3. Fay unicorn is fine its unique mount
4. Give prophetess unicorn.

Keep the two unicorn species unique.

Ah, didn't know that.

So, Bretonnians get the cheap knock off version.

Silvaron is fine in terms of stats. It doesn't break anything... but 300 price is too low considering that's how much a prophetess pays for her unicorn. Also, I think Silvaron is actually CA's invention, like Quicksilver is for Gelt.

Pretty much, but i believe silvaron might be the exception with being a royal unicorn.

Will check army books later and see.

Prophetess don't have unicorn though are you saying damsel?
Well i won't be against a 50 gold increase for her mount

another505

Dont mind that bret generic unicorn doesnt have fear as long there is a price difference.


I like this change op, make unicorn more like a very mobile monster mount.

Sarmatianns#6760

kasunrathnatunga said:

Sarmatianns said:

kasunrathnatunga said:

Well there is actually two different types of unicorn species in wh its in storm of chaos supplement if recall all the unicorn debates in general fourm.

One is royal unicorn, other is smaller sub species

1. Damsel ride the second species
2. Welf ride the other one
3. Fay unicorn is fine its unique mount
4. Give prophetess unicorn.

Keep the two unicorn species unique.

Ah, didn't know that.

So, Bretonnians get the cheap knock off version.

Silvaron is fine in terms of stats. It doesn't break anything... but 300 price is too low considering that's how much a prophetess pays for her unicorn. Also, I think Silvaron is actually CA's invention, like Quicksilver is for Gelt.

Pretty much, but i believe silvaron might be the exception with being a royal unicorn.

Will check army books later and see.

Prophetess don't have unicorn though are you saying damsel?
Well i won't be against a 50 gold increase for her mount

Damsels, yeah, sorry.

blindjonn

Great suggestions. I'd like to see Unicorns buffed and standardised across Wood Elves and Bretonnia, sub-species is overcomplicating things for this game. If Unicorns were standardised, it would be more intuitive and differentiate them from horses. Fear and AP across the board would make them a fascinating choice, even if it came with a price increase, and better speed and CB would make sense.

I'm less keen for Unicorns to come with much mass or HP. Unicorns are nearly identical to horses, visually, it would be slightly frustrating if they were "disguised" monstrous mounts. Better that they be glass cannon options, allowing a vulnerable caster to have an impact in a clutch moment.

another505

I would love prophetess to hav unicorn mount. I would actually take it as a more tanky caster lord

Pocman#6295

yst said:

First of all lets get one thing straight. Theres 2 unicorns.

One is bret other is welf. Both r VERY different. Spell singer has +12 MORE DEF than damsel, ure talking about making humans having stats of elf and vice versa.

Welf unicorn CAUSE FEAR.

Damsel unicorn does NOT cause fear

Yet, you are a piece of work.

The spellsinger having an extra 12 more MD has NOTHING TO DO with the unicorn. Is the base models stats. Which btw, are paid for (extra 50 cost, much lower WS).

The only difference between the welf unicorn and the Bretonnian one is the fear, and one MA which seems like an inconsistency that should be solved.

saweendra#3399

Pocman said:

yst said:

First of all lets get one thing straight. Theres 2 unicorns.

One is bret other is welf. Both r VERY different. Spell singer has +12 MORE DEF than damsel, ure talking about making humans having stats of elf and vice versa.

Welf unicorn CAUSE FEAR.

Damsel unicorn does NOT cause fear

Yet, you are a piece of work.

The spellsinger having an extra 12 more MD has NOTHING TO DO with the unicorn. Is the base models stats. Which btw, are paid for (extra 50 cost, much lower WS).

The only difference between the welf unicorn and the Bretonnian one is the fear, and one MA which seems like an inconsistency that should be solved.

Not really welf ride royal unicorn , bret ride other sub species. They should more different if anything

Ideally Welf ones should be more combat oriented
While bret ones more tanky

Bastilean#7242

I fully support this proposal. Keep in mind that CA will be differentiating these and Great Stags. I assume stags will be the larger AP variant. I guess I am assuming we get great stags. Crossing fingers.

Here's some fine points to consider:

Firstly, basic human steeds should pay -50g, because they aren't as fast as elven ones.

Secondly, Fey Enchantress is not getting the full Magic Resistance of a regular Unicorn. She comes base with 25% and is only gaining 35% of the 40%, so no nerf please.

Thirdly, yes! unicorns should be as fast as elven steeds. I agree the speed alone going up would be great and fits the fluff.

Fourth, I would like to see unicorns add more encourage to the battle field say +5 LD. +5 LD on the model as well for the same reason. They should have a positive impact on the troops directly around them.

Fifth, don't nerf the magic resistance. This is their shtick.

Sixth, 60 CB on basic unicorn is good. Don't change Fey Enchantress.

Seventh, a flat health buff of 850 makes more sense especially on Fey Enchantress.

Eighth, yes unicorns should cause fear for both Bret and WE.

Ninth, yes increase the cost for this majestic creature from 300 to 400.

So basically, if you are an elf you pay +200g for +25 CB, +7 MA, Fear, +500 health, +5 LD encourage, magical attacks(?) and strong magic resist. Seems legit.

I doubt Glady gets a unicorn. Maybe if there is a new combat/spellcaster lady.

What do you all think about removing magical attacks from Spell Singers and adding them back with the unicorn? I feel like the unicorn should be a unique choice to include some magical attacks, but honestly not interested in arguing for it since this isn't a melee hero.

Audacimous

Damn you beat me to this topic. I actually had a draft saved -- might as well post it here then:

Unicorn sucks, I mean the generic ones, not Fey's Silvaron. Why? Because how come they only have 78 speed? This is extremely obvious for the WE roster where you spent extra 100 points and lose 16 speed. All unicorns need 95 speed like Silvaron, especially since they have movement stat of 10 on TT.


This need to get addressed in the upcoming WE DLC cuz there is no reason to ever pick them right now

saweendra#3399

saweendra#3399

the two type of unicorn

another505

Wait, wheres the part of who gets deepwood or royal unicorn?

Bastilean#7242

There never was a deepwood unicorn model that I know of.

Also this specific page is for taking them as herds. As herds I assume they are WE only?

As far as I know both Brets and WE took the same Royal Unicorns as mounts on TT.

I like what it says about them:

"shimmer with magical power, a gleaming aura that also bears an enfolding glamour"

"The very nature of unicorns is harmful to summoned creatures"

"Unicorns are attracted to spellcasters"

I don't buy that stuff about being selfish. Someone doing the writing must have been confused. Never seen a DE Sorceress on a unicorn, so there is clearly some alignment with Life.

Deepwood unicorns don't really get me excited. They seem like a straight downgrade with little to no explanation for what they are or why and no models. This page certainly doesn't shed any light on what this smaller unicorn's niche was. They could have just as easily called them juvenile unicorns. If they are a different breed they didn't explain how.

Also, there is no cause fear in the description, which I am fine with.

Sarmatianns#6760

Yeah, I thought about their aura... Maybe it would be cool if they did some AOE mortis effects to summons (and maybe daemon-type creatures in game 3?). Or just AOE LD reduction for summons...

Would be very situational, but nice fluff.