WE vs Anything But Skaven Would Be Terrible

TheShiroOfDalton

LM and HE have 6 lords and HE have barely anything that can be added, the last DLC was already scraping the bottom of the barrel with the result that they got broken units that destroyed whatever faction identity was left (including Teclis' idiotic parrot). LM have nothing left but more big dinos that won't spice up their gameplay in any considerable way.

DE don't even have that much, there's only characters left so them getting an FLC LL to bring their number up is 100% OK. Also, creating rivalry between WE and DE doesn't work with how the races are distributed on either ME or the Vortex map, no matter how many people claim that CA can just shuffle factions around.

Skaven are the only faction left that has still major content that can be added plus it makes the most sense to pit them against the WE. Corrupted nature vs Nature's Revenge. Moulder perverts nature by creating twisted monstrosities from animals and people they capture, plus all Skaven bring ruin to wherever they dwell in large numbers. It's trivial to see why the WE could go after them for this. WE vs LM/DE/HE doesn't have anywhere near as much bite. HE and LM are technically good guys and on the same side (and CA shoehorning conflict in between Empire and LM was nonsensical and lame and so this should not be repeated) and DE are mostly concerned with other things and only reliably antagonize factions with access to the sea via slave raids.

Of course CA could make the terrible decision and do WE vs anyone but Skaven, but it would be better for everyone if they for once did what's obvious instead of "subverting expectations" Last Jedi style.

BjornNorlinder#2423

Wrong.

Both helf and lzm have cool stuff to be added.

Skaven it's just more of the same. Rat monsters, augmented rat ogres, and what not.

Daruwind

You are right but...

LM
-LL:Oxyotl, Tetto´eko (my pick), Chakax (but that´s way similar to other Saurus)
-Slann Mage-Priest (Beasts, Metal, Shadows, Death)
-Troglodon (mount)
-(Thunder Lizard....if dwarfs can dream about Thunderbarge )

HE
-LL: Aislinn, (Finubar -my pick)
-LH: Korhil
-Anointed
-Skycutter
-Merwyrm (if LM can get Thunder Lizard )

tl dr;
-fully agree both LM/HE should not get LP in Wh2, but both have potential for one more LP in game three.
-agree that DE have characters but lacking other stuff -> FLC LL
-Skaven should get spot now with Throt /Moulder and Thanquol is safely game three

Jam#4399

BjornNorlinder said:

Wrong.

Both helf and lzm have cool stuff to be added.

Skaven it's just more of the same. Rat monsters, augmented rat ogres, and what not.

HE and DE are done already. Come on, why should CA make more LL for them? Let them turn their attention into other race that need love.

jamesbluewave

Well, WE vs skaven just makes sense if you look at the legendary lord count for base game factions HE/DE/LM all have 6 only skaven has 5 so it makes sense they get +1 b4 the other 3 races.

Idk too much about the lore, I just played this game because it was Total war so I’m not sure what possibilities exist for any race. However, all they’re dlc factions so far In WH2 have been playable in both ME and vortex, so I’d imagine it’s either WE vs skaven or it’s WE vs a faction from the old world that doesn’t yet have a vortex campaign option.

Surge_2#1464

Skaven make the most sense.

TheShiroOfDalton

Daruwind said:

You are right but...

LM
-LL:Oxyotl, Tetto´eko (my pick), Chakax (but that´s way similar to other Saurus)
-Slann Mage-Priest (Beasts, Metal, Shadows, Death)
-Troglodon (mount)
-(Thunder Lizard....if dwarfs can dream about Thunderbarge )

HE
-LL: Aislinn, (Finubar -my pick)
-LH: Korhil
-Anointed
-Skycutter
-Merwyrm (if LM can get Thunder Lizard )

tl dr;
-fully agree both LM/HE should not get LP in Wh2, but both have potential for one more LP in game three.
-agree that DE have characters but lacking other stuff -> FLC LL
-Skaven should get spot now with Throt /Moulder and Thanquol is safely game three

As I said in my OP, those units wouldn't majorly change the gameplay of those factions. HE are already unchallengeable in the air (and adding airborne artillery would only make them even more broken OP than they already are) and LM have already the biggest of the dinos and it didn't make a difference so more big dinos wouldn't do so either.

Daruwind

ShiroAmakusa75 said:

Daruwind said:

You are right but...

LM
-LL:Oxyotl, Tetto´eko (my pick), Chakax (but that´s way similar to other Saurus)
-Slann Mage-Priest (Beasts, Metal, Shadows, Death)
-Troglodon (mount)
-(Thunder Lizard....if dwarfs can dream about Thunderbarge )

HE
-LL: Aislinn, (Finubar -my pick)
-LH: Korhil
-Anointed
-Skycutter
-Merwyrm (if LM can get Thunder Lizard )

tl dr;
-fully agree both LM/HE should not get LP in Wh2, but both have potential for one more LP in game three.
-agree that DE have characters but lacking other stuff -> FLC LL
-Skaven should get spot now with Throt /Moulder and Thanquol is safely game three

As I said in my OP, those units wouldn't majorly change the gameplay of those factions. HE are already unchallengeable in the air (and adding airborne artillery would only make them even more broken OP than they already are) and LM have already the biggest of the dinos and it didn't make a difference so more big dinos wouldn't do so either.

Question is, if MP balance is selling stuff or rule of coolness ;-) I agree with you but you can hardly deny that Thunder Lizard would not sell LP alone..or Thunderbarge... That would be insta buy for almost anybody...**** huge super Dino! After all, Campaign only stuff is reality, no problem with op Thunder Lizard...

Jam#4399

Remember LM don't have proper units anymore.

Leaping Kroxigors? Don't know that crocodiles have strong legs.

Laindesh

People and their bombastic posts :x

Skaven or DE makes sense to me, both miss a LL and if we get skaven and that moulder guy we'll flesh out the northeast of ME campaign a bit more which is a good thing.

LM vs Empire was a decent DLC. I like wulfhearts faction and its a nice break from the regular "Manage your dumbass empire. mon!" gameplay you get with the other empire LL's. So speak for yourself on that one.
Even if both are order, that does not necessarily mean they are on the same side (hint: even i know of the dwarves vs HE conflict that happened). This DLC was decent.

"Of course CA could make the terrible decision and do WE vs anyone but Skaven, but it would be better for everyone if they for once did what's obvious instead of "subverting expectations" Last Jedi style. "

Again, speak for yourself
I don't presume to know what CA is preparing for us, but from what i've read of people who put up them lists of "whats left" i got my button on skaven too. A thought is that they are doubling up on DLC for DLC and it's something tomb king ish.

TheShiroOfDalton

Daruwind said:

ShiroAmakusa75 said:

Daruwind said:

You are right but...

LM
-LL:Oxyotl, Tetto´eko (my pick), Chakax (but that´s way similar to other Saurus)
-Slann Mage-Priest (Beasts, Metal, Shadows, Death)
-Troglodon (mount)
-(Thunder Lizard....if dwarfs can dream about Thunderbarge )

HE
-LL: Aislinn, (Finubar -my pick)
-LH: Korhil
-Anointed
-Skycutter
-Merwyrm (if LM can get Thunder Lizard )

tl dr;
-fully agree both LM/HE should not get LP in Wh2, but both have potential for one more LP in game three.
-agree that DE have characters but lacking other stuff -> FLC LL
-Skaven should get spot now with Throt /Moulder and Thanquol is safely game three

As I said in my OP, those units wouldn't majorly change the gameplay of those factions. HE are already unchallengeable in the air (and adding airborne artillery would only make them even more broken OP than they already are) and LM have already the biggest of the dinos and it didn't make a difference so more big dinos wouldn't do so either.

Question is, if MP balance is selling stuff or rule of coolness ;-) I agree with you but you can hardly deny that Thunder Lizard would not sell LP alone..or Thunderbarge... That would be insta buy for almost anybody...**** huge super Dino! After all, Campaign only stuff is reality, no problem with op Thunder Lizard...

I'm pretty sure the Dread Saurian wasn't the main selling point of H&B, but that it finally expanded the Empire beyond the Old World (even with the idiotic reasoning they justified it with). The Dread Saurian itself is also a unit that has basically disappeared from MP just because it's nowhere near as cost-efficient as the smaller dinos thanks to its huge cost and massive hitbox. Big monsters are not automatically what sells content and if you argue so, Clan Moulder is the monster clan, so they can deliver in this regard anyway.

Goatforce#6625

BjornNorlinder said:

Wrong.

Both helf and lzm have cool stuff to be added.

Skaven it's just more of the same. Rat monsters, augmented rat ogres, and what not.

And Elves only have Elves and Elves riding things to add, whilst LM only have lizards and Dinos to add.... What's your point?


But anyway, HEs and LM are on 6 LLs, they are pretty much out. I believe both will get another DLC eventually, but it will be in game 3.

So it is between DEs and Skaven. Skaven having a far more obvious cause to be added, they are missing a great clan and an armybook unit (as well as FW stuff), whereas DEs haven't really got a theme that is missing and roster wise are only missing a couple of characters, and whilst a DLC can be done for them (and probably will be eventually) it would be basically all suplementary stuff - indeed DEs could easily be completely rounded off with a FLC, if CA wanted to, they have had 2 LPs like all the other cores and like both HEs and LM a FLC might now be the final addition.

Whilst I wouldn't go as far as to say anything but Skaven would be terrible, it certainly seems like the best candidate by far to me.

RockNRolla92#9743

I agree, I think we still have a chance of dark elves but people have to be realistic. Lizardmen or High Elves isn't happening in this lord pack

Neodeinos#5871

Eh, WE vs DE would be a very cool theme and I'd actually prefer to see that even if Moulder is the faction I want the most right now.

TheShiroOfDalton

neodeinos said:

Eh, WE vs DE would be a very cool theme and I'd actually prefer to see that even if Moulder is the faction I want the most right now.

There's no theme between WE and DE and both don't even have anything left unit-wise. There's already enough barrel-scraping for the WE, no need to do so for the DE as well.

Daruwind

neodeinos said:

Eh, WE vs DE would be a very cool theme and I'd actually prefer to see that even if Moulder is the faction I want the most right now.

Definitely it would fit CA style at suberting expectation....namely Shadow/Blade...everybody was expecting Eltharion/Grom and if Skaven, then Moulder was number one pick...

I would be most curious to see possible DE stuff..

But big plus would be DE faction starting on Ulthuan possibly...

Laindesh

ShiroAmakusa75 said:

neodeinos said:

Eh, WE vs DE would be a very cool theme and I'd actually prefer to see that even if Moulder is the faction I want the most right now.

There's no theme between WE and DE and both don't even have anything left unit-wise. There's already enough barrel-scraping for the WE, no need to do so for the DE as well.

Pretty sure some people dug out some variants and unique units out of somewhere for the WE?
Meadow chariot? Dryad variants and perhaps something else? I can't remember it that well.

If skaven comes, i'm guessing the unit effort goes to them though. Whats important to me is that i get more faction variation for the WE and the overhaul.

TheShiroOfDalton

Laindesh said:

ShiroAmakusa75 said:

neodeinos said:

Eh, WE vs DE would be a very cool theme and I'd actually prefer to see that even if Moulder is the faction I want the most right now.

There's no theme between WE and DE and both don't even have anything left unit-wise. There's already enough barrel-scraping for the WE, no need to do so for the DE as well.

Pretty sure some people dug out some variants and unique units out of somewhere for the WE?
Meadow chariot? Dryad variants and perhaps something else? I can't remember it that well.

If skaven comes, i'm guessing the unit effort goes to them though. Whats important to me is that i get more faction variation for the WE and the overhaul.

That's what I mean when I say barrel-scraping, especially if they add obscure stuff like Zoats to the WE just because they need something to reach the minimum count for new units. WE were unit-complete when their DLC dropped, they were only missing characters and mount options (and some magic lores if you count that).

Crossil#2134

Oh, OP, how naive you are. Makes me hope that it is not the Skaven all the more.

saweendra#3399

As long as we get lion share of all the budget time, detail and attention. I don't care which race it would of the starting races. Do pray its not HE since i want rework to them in game 3.

Daruwind

Laindesh said:

Pretty sure some people dug out some variants and unique units out of somewhere for the WE?
Meadow chariot? Dryad variants and perhaps something else? I can't remember it that well.

But no great center piece unit..Maybe Sea Dragon but then how much "see" stuff we are getting..

If skaven comes, i'm guessing the unit effort goes to them though. Whats important to me is that i get more faction variation for the WE and the overhaul.

especially if maybe there is BM LP later. Skaven/BM are both heavy resoruce demanding factions so I would prefer Skaven/WE + DE/BM pairing to anything else....DE/WE + Skaven/BM especially that second LP would be horrible due to too few resources for too much stuff

Crossil#2134

Daruwind said:

Laindesh said:

Pretty sure some people dug out some variants and unique units out of somewhere for the WE?
Meadow chariot? Dryad variants and perhaps something else? I can't remember it that well.

But no great center piece unit..Maybe Sea Dragon but then how much "see" stuff we are getting..

Hag Queens from back in 4th edition for lord option. Maybe some Monstrous Arcanum creatures. AoS used the Statue of Khaine from the Cauldron of Blood as a separate unit(Avatar of Khaine) and DE have lore in 8th that does point at a similar thing existing in their Fantasy rendition, so since the model is from 8th edition, its model technically is already in the game, just not yet made into a separate unit.

Daruwind said:

especially if maybe there is BM LP later. Skaven/BM are both heavy resoruce demanding factions so I would prefer Skaven/WE + DE/BM pairing to anything else....DE/WE + Skaven/BM especially that second LP would be horrible due to too few resources for too much stuff

I don't see Moulder as requiring the majority of the budget. Honestly. They have a large set of models but overall I think they can be done as a lesser partner as I can see most of their stuff relying on existing animations and skeletons. Partially because I think that Stormfiends will only come about in the third game.

And I don't expect BM to get both the Jabber and the Ghorgon.

TheShiroOfDalton

See, if that's really all DE have left to offer than I really hope CA is for once smart enough to avoid this very obvious mistake.

Laindesh

Crossil said:

Daruwind said:

Laindesh said:

Pretty sure some people dug out some variants and unique units out of somewhere for the WE?
Meadow chariot? Dryad variants and perhaps something else? I can't remember it that well.

But no great center piece unit..Maybe Sea Dragon but then how much "see" stuff we are getting..

Hag Queens from back in 4th edition for lord option. Maybe some Monstrous Arcanum creatures. AoS used the Statue of Khaine from the Cauldron of Blood as a separate unit(Avatar of Khaine) and DE have lore in 8th that does point at a similar thing existing in their Fantasy rendition, so since the model is from 8th edition, it technically is already in the game, just not yet made into a separate unit.

Pretty sure i talked about Wood, not Dark elves
Nice to see what the DE is missing too, seem more likely they'll pop up in game 3

XxXScorpionXxX#2310

Assuming that CA doesn't want to play favorites with the 4 base factions of WH2 that would mean that its WE vs either Skaven or Dark Elves with the other getting a FLC lord at some point. That way all 4 of the base races will have 6 legendary lords each by the end of the games life cycle.

Crossil#2134

Laindesh said:

Crossil said:

Daruwind said:

Laindesh said:

Pretty sure some people dug out some variants and unique units out of somewhere for the WE?
Meadow chariot? Dryad variants and perhaps something else? I can't remember it that well.

But no great center piece unit..Maybe Sea Dragon but then how much "see" stuff we are getting..

Hag Queens from back in 4th edition for lord option. Maybe some Monstrous Arcanum creatures. AoS used the Statue of Khaine from the Cauldron of Blood as a separate unit(Avatar of Khaine) and DE have lore in 8th that does point at a similar thing existing in their Fantasy rendition, so since the model is from 8th edition, it technically is already in the game, just not yet made into a separate unit.

Pretty sure i talked about Wood, not Dark elves
Nice to see what the DE is missing too, seem more likely they'll pop up in game 3

I mean, look, every race can have something to get if you look hard enough. It's just a question of how hard and deep you look.

Maelas

High Elves and Lizardmen have each one centerpiece unit from their 8th edition rulebook that is still missing, and at least one semi-notable character that is easily connected to said unit (Aislinn/Tetto'Ekko), they are not complete, and they should get one last DLC to make them as whole as possible.

With that said, Skavens are obvisouly the most logical choice for the next DLC, however, I think people are too quick to dismiss the other possibilites. Dark Elves vs Wood Elves and High Elves vs Wood Elves right themselves, especially Dark Elves, since they are still one lord short. And Lizardmen, well, jungle vs forest is not too shabby for a theme, i think.

Crossil#2134

XxXScorpionXxX said:

Assuming that CA doesn't want to play favorites with the 4 base factions of WH2 that would mean that its WE vs either Skaven or Dark Elves with the other getting a FLC lord at some point. That way all 4 of the base races will have 6 legendary lords each by the end of the games life cycle.

Or a BM LP after this.

XxXScorpionXxX#2310

ShiroAmakusa75 said:

neodeinos said:

Eh, WE vs DE would be a very cool theme and I'd actually prefer to see that even if Moulder is the faction I want the most right now.

There's no theme between WE and DE and both don't even have anything left unit-wise. There's already enough barrel-scraping for the WE, no need to do so for the DE as well.

Ariel and Morathi have a lot of history together in lore. WE vs DE would be more thematic. I'm not even sure if the WE ever encounter Skaven once in the lore. Beastmen would have been the MOST thematic mode and BM also need the new units and overhaul more than even WE's do.

Crossil#2134

XxXScorpionXxX said:

ShiroAmakusa75 said:

neodeinos said:

Eh, WE vs DE would be a very cool theme and I'd actually prefer to see that even if Moulder is the faction I want the most right now.

There's no theme between WE and DE and both don't even have anything left unit-wise. There's already enough barrel-scraping for the WE, no need to do so for the DE as well.

Ariel and Morathi have a lot of history together in lore. WE vs DE would be more thematic. I'm not even sure if the WE ever encounter Skaven once in the lore.

In 8th edition there is exactly one conflict that is more in the background. You have to go to the supplements to find anything in 8th. You have to go back to 4th edition WE armybook, wherein it still isn't in any way a significant rivalry, but there are more battles between them, but all of them are Skaven trying to pass throught the forest or accidentally ending up in it and getting stomped.

The Skaven armybook, however, doesn't mention Wood Elves at all.

Ariel#4992

XxXScorpionXxX said:

ShiroAmakusa75 said:

neodeinos said:

Eh, WE vs DE would be a very cool theme and I'd actually prefer to see that even if Moulder is the faction I want the most right now.

There's no theme between WE and DE and both don't even have anything left unit-wise. There's already enough barrel-scraping for the WE, no need to do so for the DE as well.

Ariel and Morathi have a lot of history together in lore. WE vs DE would be more thematic. I'm not even sure if the WE ever encounter Skaven once in the lore. Beastmen would have been the MOST thematic mode and BM also need the new units and overhaul more than even WE's do.

As far as I know, they have not encountered Skaven once in modern lore, so you are correct. Last time there was some kind of interaction was back in 4th edition.