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WE vs Anything But Skaven Would Be Terrible

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  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001

    ArneSo said:


    So much salt in this thread.

    I’m sorry if you don’t like Skaven (none of the core WH2 races are my favourites) but they are the only logical choice for this LP and the OP is completely correct.

    It would be criminal if Moulder isn’t the second half of this DLC.

    Salt? What are you talking about? We are having a little bit of a discussion, I do not see anyone angry about it.
    Have you missed all the HE fanboys being so toxic against anything Skaven related?

    But oh wait I forgot, you are one of them
    Yes, I must say that I missed that, could you please provide some quates from this thread, where HE fans are toxic about anything Skaven related? And just for you, I am Chaos Dwarfs fanboy, so you are wrong again, as usual. Are you trying to run for the biggest jester of this forum? You would have my vote.
    "Oh, OP, how naive you are. Makes me hope that it is not the Skaven all the more."

    Right on the first page, from a die-hard DE fanboy.
  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Registered Users Posts: 32,004
    Zekerath said:

    Uagrim said:

    Uagrim said:

    Uagrim said:

    How I love the sheer arrogance of skaven fans.

    Only our faction has stuff left to add yes-yes. Only we deserve CA's attention yes-yes. Cool stuff for other factions no-no they don't have cool stuff only we do.

    Get a grip.

    If CA wants to add stuff to other factions they will find a way adding new units is something they have done time and time again ever since warhammer 1.

    Lets not throw personal snipes around.

    If you look at TT content Skaven have quite a lot of good stuff left to add. Other races not so much. CA can add lore scraps and even invent units, but if you consider that this game is based off of the TableTop game then Skaven easily have more, better stuff to add than any other game 2 race.
    This isn't TT anymore, hasn't been for a long while now. Else bretonnia would have an even smaller roster and stuff like sacred kroxigor or eshin tirads wouldn't be in the game.
    The game is based off of 8th edition WHFB. Eshin Triads were part of that, albiet a side list.
    This doesn't refute my point at all. Seeing as stuff like sacred kroxigors and Royal Pegasus Knights weren't a thing on TT. Neither were weapon teams as individual units.

    The game is build upon TT but to some extend it can't be tied down by it.
    The game is based off of the TT. Skaven have the most important characters left in not one but two TT lords. They also have far more TT units than LM, and a far stronger remaining theme in Moulder than anything any other game 2 race has.

    If you wish to preference different factors differently s'all good.
    CA hasn't really shied away from using TT heroes as LL in the game, and there are plenty of those that can still be added instead.
    Lords are more important than heroes.

    Throt and Thanquol are easily the two most important characters left from TWW2.
    "There's no fun in picking on the weak. If you must, go for the mountain high, the language most foreign, target the strong." - Kenny Florian

    "Under construction" - Becky, daughter of Guanyin.

    "I like small words" - Winsy C

    Forum Terms & Conditions

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  • BrynjarKBrynjarK Registered Users Posts: 864
    edited November 2020
    Let them have their (warp)ligth in game two.. In all the other branches of the franchiche and lore, theyre always the swarm of bad guys
  • SteelRoninSteelRonin Junior Member ChileRegistered Users Posts: 1,331
    it could be WE vs TK if they focus the patch in the southlands XD
  • jamesbluewavejamesbluewave Registered Users Posts: 531

    it could be WE vs TK if they focus the patch in the southlands XD

    Haha
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001
    BrynjarK said:

    BrynjarK said:

    ArneSo said:


    So much salt in this thread.

    I’m sorry if you don’t like Skaven (none of the core WH2 races are my favourites) but they are the only logical choice for this LP and the OP is completely correct.

    It would be criminal if Moulder isn’t the second half of this DLC.

    Salt? What are you talking about? We are having a little bit of a discussion, I do not see anyone angry about it.
    Have you missed all the HE fanboys being so toxic against anything Skaven related?

    But oh wait I forgot, you are one of them
    Yes, I must say that I missed that, could you please provide some quates from this thread, where HE fans are toxic about anything Skaven related? And just for you, I am Chaos Dwarfs fanboy, so you are wrong again, as usual. Are you trying to run for the biggest jester of this forum? You would have my vote.
    "Oh, OP, how naive you are. Makes me hope that it is not the Skaven all the more."

    Right on the first page, from a die-hard DE fanboy.
    So? We are talking about HE fans.
    Elves look all the same to me.
    "Not at all similar to WE vs DE since Ariel vs Morathi would be down to personal antipathy, not genocidal racial hatred. Again, Malekith wanted to court them as potential allies and the DE dislike the WE for washing their hands off the whole elven civil war (as do the HE actually) which does not translate into any sort of potential war issue. The DE armybook doesn't even mention any large scale WE attacks, so I guess whatever conflict that was, it wasn't anywhere near as serious as the DE's battle against the HE and Chaos."

    Catch 22
    They've got pointy ears and squeal when I chop them in half. Where's the difference?
    Youre the loremater, you tell me :D
    Dog poop comes in many shapes and sizes, but it's all dog poop in the end. Same with the elves. That's all the lore you need to know.

    Except I lied, dog poop is nicer to have around than any elf.
  • ZekerathZekerath Registered Users Posts: 689

    Zekerath said:

    Uagrim said:

    Uagrim said:

    Uagrim said:

    How I love the sheer arrogance of skaven fans.

    Only our faction has stuff left to add yes-yes. Only we deserve CA's attention yes-yes. Cool stuff for other factions no-no they don't have cool stuff only we do.

    Get a grip.

    If CA wants to add stuff to other factions they will find a way adding new units is something they have done time and time again ever since warhammer 1.

    Lets not throw personal snipes around.

    If you look at TT content Skaven have quite a lot of good stuff left to add. Other races not so much. CA can add lore scraps and even invent units, but if you consider that this game is based off of the TableTop game then Skaven easily have more, better stuff to add than any other game 2 race.
    This isn't TT anymore, hasn't been for a long while now. Else bretonnia would have an even smaller roster and stuff like sacred kroxigor or eshin tirads wouldn't be in the game.
    The game is based off of 8th edition WHFB. Eshin Triads were part of that, albiet a side list.
    This doesn't refute my point at all. Seeing as stuff like sacred kroxigors and Royal Pegasus Knights weren't a thing on TT. Neither were weapon teams as individual units.

    The game is build upon TT but to some extend it can't be tied down by it.
    The game is based off of the TT. Skaven have the most important characters left in not one but two TT lords. They also have far more TT units than LM, and a far stronger remaining theme in Moulder than anything any other game 2 race has.

    If you wish to preference different factors differently s'all good.
    CA hasn't really shied away from using TT heroes as LL in the game, and there are plenty of those that can still be added instead.
    Lords are more important than heroes.

    Throt and Thanquol are easily the two most important characters left from TWW2.
    CA might not see it that way, as otherwise they would have implemented all the lords before hero characters.
    Prioritising lords over heroes would also mean prioritising Araloth over Sisters of Twilight, and I think most people agree that Sisters are more important than Araloth.
    Also, hasn't CA said that Thanquol isn't coming for TWW2?
  • Surge_2Surge_2 Registered Users Posts: 7,441

    Jman5 said:

    I agree with you OP, but really I don't understand why we are getting into such heated arguments over this. We'll know in a week or two and no amount of persuasive arguments will change which factions we get.

    This is a forum, discussion occurs here.
    The number of times I've been on a forum that discouraged discussion, is way too high.

    You are of course correct, that is what should occur here.
    Campaign Management is for suckers.

  • dge1dge1 Moderator Arkansas, USARegistered Users, Moderators, Knights Posts: 22,547
    Personal comments and side conversation posts removed. Warning given to those needing a reminder "heads up".
    "The two most common things in the universe are Hydrogen and Stupidity." - Harlan Ellison
    "The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously." - Hubert H. Humphrey
    "Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” - George Carlin/Mark Twain
    “Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.”–George Santayana, The Life of Reason, 1905.

  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Registered Users Posts: 32,004
    @Zekerath Sorry left from a TWW2 race*

    CA largely does preference Lords though. Heroes are usually FLC. Look at Skaven, the only hero LL they have was the FLC. And FLCs are of course done cheaply. I could be wrong but CA has implemented far more Lords than heroes. Certainly for TWWII races I can think of lots of heroes that aren't in and only the Skaven Lords that aren't.

    I also should have said "Generally Lords are more important than heroes" because of course there's exceptions. Hell Malus was a hero for a while. Sisters I assumed were Lords, interesting that they weren't. Most of the time though a hero will have less lore and less lore importance than a lord.
    "There's no fun in picking on the weak. If you must, go for the mountain high, the language most foreign, target the strong." - Kenny Florian

    "Under construction" - Becky, daughter of Guanyin.

    "I like small words" - Winsy C

    Forum Terms & Conditions

    I am The Beast, Son of Guanyin, The one who beasts 25 hours a day, 8 days a week, The Vanilla Gorilla, Conqueror of Mountains, purveyor of wisdom, Official forum historian, Master Tamer of energy, the one they fear to name, Beastradamus, The Teacher, Master Unbiased Pollster

  • ZekerathZekerath Registered Users Posts: 689

    @Zekerath Sorry left from a TWW2 race*

    CA largely does preference Lords though. Heroes are usually FLC. Look at Skaven, the only hero LL they have was the FLC. And FLCs are of course done cheaply. I could be wrong but CA has implemented far more Lords than heroes. Certainly for TWWII races I can think of lots of heroes that aren't in and only the Skaven Lords that aren't.

    I also should have said "Generally Lords are more important than heroes" because of course there's exceptions. Hell Malus was a hero for a while. Sisters I assumed were Lords, interesting that they weren't. Most of the time though a hero will have less lore and less lore importance than a lord.

    I mean yes, it makes sense that lords do get the highlight, both in lore and in games, be it TT or TW. GW probably knows that making your leading characters interesting, important and powerful sells them better.
    But I'd be interested to see a list of sort of how many LLs in the game are lords and how many are heroes from the TT, just to get the full picture, as I can't say for certain either just what the numbers are.

    I just personally think that putting too much faith in the idea that lords are more important than heroes. If CA hasn't even said that's what they do, and they clearly are willing to make exceptions to it, why even consider it's something CA hold true?

    One could also argue about just how important Throt actually is as a character, but as a person not well-versed in skaven lore, I only say that I know and care a whole lot more about Thanquol, but he ain't coming yet so it's whatever to me.
    On the topic of the thread, I personally wouldn't see it as great injustice if it turned out not to be skaven. I also think people should start warming up to the idea of "bottom of the barrel scraping" as we get more and more DLCs, and if CA's words do hold true that they will keep making DLCs as long as we buy them, then we will most likely see no only the bottom of the barrel, but go through it and beyond.
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 10,970
    edited November 2020
    It's probably simpler to list the heroes:

    Empire: Markus

    Vampire Counts: Isabella. I think Ghorst as well, but I don't have the supplement he comes from. The Red Duke was unstatted, but probably would have been Lord-level.

    Beastmen: Morghur

    Bretonnians: Repanse might have been - my 5E Bretonnia book is too deeply buried to access conveniently Found it, she's a lord. Alberic was unstatted, but being a Duke, would almost certainly have been a Lord if statted.

    Norsca: Throgg, Wulfrik

    Lizardmen: Tiktaq'to, Gor-Rok. Nakai had no official rules.

    Skaven: Tretch, Snikch

    Dark Elves: Lokhir

    Vampire Coast: Noctilus, Aranessa and Clylostra were unstatted, with the last being a CA invention. Noctilus would have certainly been a lord if he was statted. Aranessa I'm less certain about.

    The rest (including Kroak) were all LLs on the tabletop, or I'm reasonably certain enough that I didn't check.

    Takeaway is that there is certainly a preference for lord-level characters, but there are strong precedents for hero-level characters being valid LL material, and a few cases where a living lord-level special character was eschewed in favour of a hero.
  • ZekerathZekerath Registered Users Posts: 689
    I was under the impression Snikch was a lord, but just had some special rule that he couldn't lead an army?
    Or I may have been mislead, that's an option too.
  • yolordmcswagyolordmcswag Registered Users Posts: 3,932
    Zekerath said:

    I was under the impression Snikch was a lord, but just had some special rule that he couldn't lead an army?
    Or I may have been mislead, that's an option too.

    Snikch was a hero in 7th edition, the last skaven armybook before AoS.
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 10,970
    Zekerath said:

    I was under the impression Snikch was a lord, but just had some special rule that he couldn't lead an army?
    Or I may have been mislead, that's an option too.

    He was a hero in the 7E army book. With the special rule that you mention, since heroes otherwise could be the general if they had the highest or equal highest leadership in the army (which Snikch would - his 8 puts him on par with Queek and Verminlords, and Verminlords also had that rule).

    He might have been a lord in the 6E Eshin list - I didn't check.
  • ZekerathZekerath Registered Users Posts: 689
    Fair enough, and thanks for the clarification.
  • SerPusSerPus Registered Users Posts: 7,357
    Zekerath said:

    I was under the impression Snikch was a lord, but just had some special rule that he couldn't lead an army?
    Or I may have been mislead, that's an option too.

    That rule isn't unique for him - it's the same rule that Eshin assassins had in the 7th edition.
  • TheLowKingTheLowKing Registered Users Posts: 210
    Heroes could lead armies in the Tabletop. The Lord-Hero distinction is not the same as in total war.
  • CrossilCrossil Registered Users Posts: 14,102

    Heroes could lead armies in the Tabletop. The Lord-Hero distinction is not the same as in total war.

    More accurately, Total War has the General/Agent distinction, which doesn't accurately correlate to Lord/Hero. It's just that the latter terminology was simply copied over from the TT.

    UNLEASH THE EVERCHARIOT

  • ArielAriel Registered Users Posts: 2,041
    Draxynnic said:

    Zekerath said:

    I was under the impression Snikch was a lord, but just had some special rule that he couldn't lead an army?
    Or I may have been mislead, that's an option too.

    He was a hero in the 7E army book. With the special rule that you mention, since heroes otherwise could be the general if they had the highest or equal highest leadership in the army (which Snikch would - his 8 puts him on par with Queek and Verminlords, and Verminlords also had that rule).

    He might have been a lord in the 6E Eshin list - I didn't check.
    He was just this text character in 6th edition armybook, only Thanquol and Throt had rules in the armybook. I would assume thou that he is one of the 13 master assassins of Nightlord and those had rules in 6th edition and could have lead armies.

    Relevant parts from the armybook:




    The final rose has faded,
    The eaves will sing no more;
    The waxen ground will keep you bound,
    Death-pale until the thaw.
    Then she placed the rest of Orion's ashes into the bowl and turned to face the Oak of Ages.
    I used to go by many names here. Crazycrix, Dubinekdubajs, Yrellian and finally Ariel, one of my favourite characters in the setting. Still waiting for Finubar and Naieth!
  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Registered Users Posts: 32,004
    Zekerath said:

    @Zekerath Sorry left from a TWW2 race*

    CA largely does preference Lords though. Heroes are usually FLC. Look at Skaven, the only hero LL they have was the FLC. And FLCs are of course done cheaply. I could be wrong but CA has implemented far more Lords than heroes. Certainly for TWWII races I can think of lots of heroes that aren't in and only the Skaven Lords that aren't.

    I also should have said "Generally Lords are more important than heroes" because of course there's exceptions. Hell Malus was a hero for a while. Sisters I assumed were Lords, interesting that they weren't. Most of the time though a hero will have less lore and less lore importance than a lord.

    I mean yes, it makes sense that lords do get the highlight, both in lore and in games, be it TT or TW. GW probably knows that making your leading characters interesting, important and powerful sells them better.
    But I'd be interested to see a list of sort of how many LLs in the game are lords and how many are heroes from the TT, just to get the full picture, as I can't say for certain either just what the numbers are.

    I just personally think that putting too much faith in the idea that lords are more important than heroes. If CA hasn't even said that's what they do, and they clearly are willing to make exceptions to it, why even consider it's something CA hold true?

    One could also argue about just how important Throt actually is as a character, but as a person not well-versed in skaven lore, I only say that I know and care a whole lot more about Thanquol, but he ain't coming yet so it's whatever to me.
    On the topic of the thread, I personally wouldn't see it as great injustice if it turned out not to be skaven. I also think people should start warming up to the idea of "bottom of the barrel scraping" as we get more and more DLCs, and if CA's words do hold true that they will keep making DLCs as long as we buy them, then we will most likely see no only the bottom of the barrel, but go through it and beyond.
    Depends if we're talking what CA should do or what they will do. I'm talking about what they should do.
    "There's no fun in picking on the weak. If you must, go for the mountain high, the language most foreign, target the strong." - Kenny Florian

    "Under construction" - Becky, daughter of Guanyin.

    "I like small words" - Winsy C

    Forum Terms & Conditions

    I am The Beast, Son of Guanyin, The one who beasts 25 hours a day, 8 days a week, The Vanilla Gorilla, Conqueror of Mountains, purveyor of wisdom, Official forum historian, Master Tamer of energy, the one they fear to name, Beastradamus, The Teacher, Master Unbiased Pollster

  • PocmanPocman Registered Users Posts: 5,293
    Well, I personally hope it's Skaven. But no Thrott: pease, the actual Moulder representative should be Skweel
  • That1dudeThat1dude Registered Users Posts: 438
    Pocman said:

    Well, I personally hope it's Skaven. But no Thrott: pease, the actual Moulder representative should be Skweel

    Every Skaven clan in the game has been led by that clan’s second-in-command, it will be Throt if Moulder comes.
    MILK FOR THE KHORNE FLAKES!



    Dragons are cool too...
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