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Faction interactivity in W3

ERICdbs#2077ERICdbs#2077 Registered Users Posts: 640
Greetings-salutations no-furs, today I wanted to bring you a new piece of discussion regarding the interactivity between different factions in Game 3, especially in regards to the Immortal Realms, the final combined map.

Regardless of the final implementation of such map, whether it's a full world map or just the current one plus a piece of the east and north, the result will be that the time required to go from one extreme to the other of the map will go up by a considerable margin, even if we get to enjoy a full globe map. Also, the number of total new races will have to go up.

The potential issue with this is that it will be very difficult for certain lords to meet and fight a meaningful array of representatives of all the other factions until very late in the campaign. Such a phenomena already exists to some extent in the current game, as you might find yourself fighting only 2 or 3 other factions for most of the campaign, or at least, the part of the campaign that it's actually fun. In short, for most campaigns, we only get to experience a fraction of the potential conflicts with different races, making the fights more monotonous in the process. This personally makes me feel like we aren't experiencing all there is to the game.

The first question would be, is this an actual problem for you? Do you prefer having only the capability to engage with a limited set of races throughout most of the campaign, thus potentially giving more value to different lords with different start positions, or would you like to spice up things a little and be able to interact with more races from an early turn?

So for those who would consider this a problem, of for those who think that faction interactivity can be improved without devaluing the different start positions, here comes the second question: what would you do to increase the interactivity between factions?

My personal take on this would be some sort of teleportation device, maybe a chaos portal or magic gateway of some sort, that could link up different continents and regions, and could obviously be used by both the player and the AI. I think it could be tied to the coming of the chaos tides, and could appear only after the early game. At that point, portals would open in different regions and daemons could come from them regularly until it's garrison was defeated or something. Then we could maybe activate such portals in cooldown driven rituals or via technology, to hop into another of such gateways, giving us quick means of troop and hero transportation, which tends to become boring and time consuming in the later phases of the game.

In any case, regardless of the specific implementation and lore justification, do you think that CA will come to the conclusion that with such massive map, some sort of teleportation device is needed? I kinda fear the slog that could become the transportation of troops and heroes in the third game.

What do you think? Are-are your tails as many segmented as mine?

Comments

  • Gollummyprecious#7609Gollummyprecious#7609 Registered Users Posts: 484
    thats an interesting idea, but the ME campaign is currently suffering a lack of diplomatic assets to match the scale of the map. What i mean by that is that at some point you find yourself just brainlessly painting the map without much other interactions. More diplomatic options would be a good asset for game 3 to make the interactions more dynamic and less boring. Like trading regiments to other factions, trading slaves for certain factions, trading weapons or even region transaction, also opening a little bit the diplomacy for chaos factions and undead factions. I mean you could do an everchosen mechanic where you start without any ability to recruit anything other than the basic roster that you have but you can unlock other warriors of chaos factions by either conquering them or via some quests where you prove yourself as the everchosen, thus earning their loyalty. Also you could be able to buy favours for the dark gods through slave sacrifices, quests and even buy certain Chaos Dwarfs and Ogres units by trading gold and slaves with them.
    For the undead, and i mean by that Nagash it would be awesome to see a mechanic where you can confederate certain different undead factions like Arkhan, Luthor Harkon, Manfred and Kemmler, and making them your mortarchs as you recollect the books of Nagash and regain your power, and therefore acquiring their units, making the Nagash faction in the late game the real threat that he should be.

    all in all, the ME concept is awesome but as the story comes to an end, CA should put more and more focus on faction mechanics and having more flavourful interactions with each other so the experience can remain fresh and exciting once they start slowing down on content dropping.

    What do YOU think about that ? (also Love me some Skavens selling mutants and warmachines to Archaon that would be awesome!)
    Sanity is a curse, madness offers the only freedom...
  • Patrikseve#8733Patrikseve#8733 Registered Users Posts: 2,145

    thats an interesting idea, but the ME campaign is currently suffering a lack of diplomatic assets to match the scale of the map. What i mean by that is that at some point you find yourself just brainlessly painting the map without much other interactions. More diplomatic options would be a good asset for game 3 to make the interactions more dynamic and less boring. Like trading regiments to other factions, trading slaves for certain factions, trading weapons or even region transaction, also opening a little bit the diplomacy for chaos factions and undead factions. I mean you could do an everchosen mechanic where you start without any ability to recruit anything other than the basic roster that you have but you can unlock other warriors of chaos factions by either conquering them or via some quests where you prove yourself as the everchosen, thus earning their loyalty. Also you could be able to buy favours for the dark gods through slave sacrifices, quests and even buy certain Chaos Dwarfs and Ogres units by trading gold and slaves with them.
    For the undead, and i mean by that Nagash it would be awesome to see a mechanic where you can confederate certain different undead factions like Arkhan, Luthor Harkon, Manfred and Kemmler, and making them your mortarchs as you recollect the books of Nagash and regain your power, and therefore acquiring their units, making the Nagash faction in the late game the real threat that he should be.

    all in all, the ME concept is awesome but as the story comes to an end, CA should put more and more focus on faction mechanics and having more flavourful interactions with each other so the experience can remain fresh and exciting once they start slowing down on content dropping.

    What do YOU think about that ? (also Love me some Skavens selling mutants and warmachines to Archaon that would be awesome!)

    Well yes... I think introducing a fullblown expansion to this could alleviate some issues. Three Kingdoms does a great jobb with the diplomacy in this regard. I think spicing up with some asymetry would be great to say Skaven diplomacy works different than human ones with different options to pick from.

  • #324448#324448 Registered Users Posts: 2,166
    I could see the merit of "teleportation devices"- they could be tied heavily to the mechanics of the Daemons of Chaos, but other factions could make use of them to expand their empires in unexpected regions.

    However, I am a bit wary of overdoing the faction diversity in various areas of the map. I think the occasional "expedition LL" (Markus, Khatep, Nakai in ME, etc.) is a good way to ensure a race can fight other groups that it ordinarily wouldn't fight, but I want the map to feel like a culture's homeland are owned by it. I don't want to fight Tomb Kings in the Mountains of Mourn, I want to go to Nehekhara and fight them there, or at least have them invade me from that region. Likewise, I see no need for, say, a Chaos Dwarf, to start in the middle of the Empire.

    Expedition LLs are a good way to vary up who different cultures fight. But I don't think every LL should be able to fight every race in the early game. That's just not feasible. If I do a Karl Franz campaign without ever fighting the Lizardmen... so be it, I can play Markus for that.
    Remember: there's no reason to get angry on the forums. Be polite and respectful towards other people's opinions, even if you disagree.

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  • bli-nk#6314bli-nk#6314 Registered Users Posts: 6,122
    There are already lore exceptions for some of the races and I don't think it is necessary to have every single race have access to some sort of fast travel. Races with limited starting positions or hugging mostly one side of the map would be the main candidates for some fast-travel mechanics but without having a map composed of separated theatres like Empire TW, I am not sure what would be a good way to implement such a feature so the AI can handle it.

    Most likely it would require unlocking enough favour or some resource or building up cities to tier 5 and having a really expensive building but both of those would put travel to mid/late campaign which in reality isn't that far ahead of what would be possible with current mechanics.

    There is also the argument that it should require playing a handful of start positions to fully experience all of WH3 as world spanning conquests are something rarely done in Warhammer (but has happened in the lore a handful of times).

    I definitely think there should be some diplomatic management features as currently if you have an ally on one side of the map it is almost a necessity to backstab them and clear them out before moving your armies to other fronts as they will inevitably turn on you if left alone which really increases the grind in a campaign.

    Having some way to keep allies or at least make their backstab slightly less guaranteed like region trading or loose coalitions that are less than a military alliance (which actually suits several of the factions in Warhammer better than full military alliances) would be a very welcome addition.
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  • BrynjarK#6108BrynjarK#6108 Registered Users Posts: 924
    edited November 2020
    Orcs? WEZ GOT THE WASTEZ AND WE WASTESZ THEM!!

    Im definently against all races able to teleport everywhere, but some could to an extint. High elves being good at sea allowing for some long range travels. Chaos with its portals and minions around the world. Lizardmen to some extint.

    If anyone should be able to go to war against anyone, then just have a huge map and then the player can plot in where the factions or races should start.

    However im all up for diffrent armies testing each other, for the sake of diversity.

    I (edit: hope)think they will solve this by leaning against the "vortex phenomenon" planting subfactions around the map - then build a story around that. Afterall this is a total war game. And some restrictions have to be made, in my opinion, to make it feel as such.
  • #239632#239632 Registered Users Posts: 423
    edited November 2020
    My issue in ME thus far is related to order tide. I play mostly Bretts and Vamps and in the game I am pin by all sides by factions who declared war on me. Darfs to the east. HE to the west. Bretts snd WEs to the south. Norsca to the North. I want to invade TKs for past 100 turns but cant becuase Im pin by needless war from races around me.

    Thats a issue with most races. Your force to conquer a whole corner of the map first to have breathing room and by that time your past the good part of the campaign.

    Teleportation wouldnt help as you be weaker in current area. Better diplomacy would be nice. I know the TW community says crap like "its TW" but that mind set just limits the possibilities and experience.
  • Commissar_G#7535Commissar_G#7535 Registered Users Posts: 16,380

    My issue in ME thus far is related to order tide. I play mostly Bretts and Vamps and in the game I am pin by all sides by factions who declared war on me. Darfs to the east. HE to the west. Bretts snd WEs to the south. Norsca to the North. I want to invade TKs for past 100 turns but cant becuase Im pin by needless war from races around me.

    Thats a issue with most races. Your force to conquer a whole corner of the map first to have breathing room and by that time your past the good part of the campaign.

    Teleportation wouldnt help as you be weaker in current area. Better diplomacy would be nice. I know the TW community says crap like "its TW" but that mind set just limits the possibilities and experience.

    That's actually a TW issue, not an ordertide issue.

    In almost every campaign since S2, unless you play on easy, your campaign is dictated to you by AI randomly declaring war on the player. You will almost never in a modern TW be able to play a thematic campaign as you desire.
    MarcusLivius: You are indeed a lord of entitlement.
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