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Why is this game still using Denuvo? You removed it from Steam description but it is still there.

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  • RomeoRejectRomeoReject Registered Users Posts: 1,746
    Krzyhar21 said:

    SerPus said:

    Because it's an effective anti-piracy tool?

    Yeah, but it also punishes honest players, not only pirates. I've heard that version without denuovo run much smoother than the legal one. :disappointed:
    I've heard that about every game with Denuvo, and outside of bad implementations, it never seems to hold up. Most games gain a whopping 1-2% FPS.

    To be blunt, if Denuvo was still such an issue with Total Warhammer, we wouldn't just be hearing about it four years in.
  • NeverBackDownNeverBackDown Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,862
    edited November 2020

    Krzyhar21 said:

    SerPus said:

    Because it's an effective anti-piracy tool?

    Yeah, but it also punishes honest players, not only pirates. I've heard that version without denuovo run much smoother than the legal one. :disappointed:
    I've heard that about every game with Denuvo, and outside of bad implementations, it never seems to hold up. Most games gain a whopping 1-2% FPS.

    To be blunt, if Denuvo was still such an issue with Total Warhammer, we wouldn't just be hearing about it four years in.
    This is incorrect and there a few examples already of far far far more than "1-2% FPS".

    In addition, Denuvo is still an issue in Warhammer 2 performance, is terrible and always has been. People have been complaining since launch how much worse it is than WH1 and just in general anything more than 4k units it just struggles.


    The fact of the matter is whether or not you agree it should be gone. If it is still there and they removed Denuvo from the Steam Store Page, they are lying to their customers and any potential customers. It becomes a legal issue.


    Add in the fact at launch, the Denuvo was cracked and it was the fastest crack of any Denuvo game at that point in time, I believe it still is. So it didn't even do it's job. But again CA need to add in the fact it's still using it on the store page.
  • CrossilCrossil Registered Users Posts: 9,178
    edited November 2020

    Crossil said:

    so where the warhammer 2 video that shows the effects Denuvo vs cracked version ?

    I don't think there is such a version. From what I know, the cracked versions usually still have denuvo, but somehow bypass its security checks.

    The only comparison we can have are from other games that had denuvo removed by their developers.
    Of course there is.. But it would require one of the people here, on this forum, to admit that he cracked the game instead of paying. It is the equivalent of social suicide... But sure, if that s what is needed to pretend Denuvo is still needed...
    Yeah, sure, social suicide, when the internet is literally filled with cracked games and countless roms of older games and emulators.

    From what I know, no, they don't do that as they don't have the source code, so the optimal way with most DRM methods is usually to make them think they're genuine rather than rewriting internal code they don't know enough about.

    Now I noticed that the video OP posted has first example of it being done. Last year, december.

    Krzyhar21 said:

    SerPus said:

    Because it's an effective anti-piracy tool?

    Yeah, but it also punishes honest players, not only pirates. I've heard that version without denuovo run much smoother than the legal one. :disappointed:
    I've heard that about every game with Denuvo, and outside of bad implementations, it never seems to hold up. Most games gain a whopping 1-2% FPS.

    To be blunt, if Denuvo was still such an issue with Total Warhammer, we wouldn't just be hearing about it four years in.
    And what is there to compare it to, exactly? There hasn't exactly been a time without it you could compare it to.

    You can watch the video OP posted to see a difference here.

    UNLEASH THE EVERCHARIOT

  • ROMOBOYROMOBOY Registered Users Posts: 2,852
    This game’s biggest downside is how it runs. It feels terribly optimized. So if removing this makes the game run much smoother for all paying customers, I’m down.
    "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."
  • Cadia101Cadia101 Registered Users Posts: 1,128
    ROMOBOY said:

    This game’s biggest downside is how it runs. It feels terribly optimized. So if removing this makes the game run much smoother for all paying customers, I’m down.

    Well if it stop peoples to cheat in mp and stop piracy of the latest dlc for a few months, so don’t see why we should get rid of it.

    3K has way better performances and also use denuvo. So I doubt it is the real problem concerning the performances of the game.
  • CrossilCrossil Registered Users Posts: 9,178
    Cadia101 said:

    ROMOBOY said:

    This game’s biggest downside is how it runs. It feels terribly optimized. So if removing this makes the game run much smoother for all paying customers, I’m down.

    Well if it stop peoples to cheat in mp and stop piracy of the latest dlc for a few months, so don’t see why we should get rid of it.

    3K has way better performances and also use denuvo. So I doubt it is the real problem concerning the performances of the game.
    Pretty sure that cheating prevention has nothing to do with it.

    Yes, 3k gets it from somewhere else, but that doesn't mean that 3k wouldn't also run better without Denuvo as we, again, don't have a denuvo-free version. It's comparing apples and oranges, two very different games even if they are the same engine.

    UNLEASH THE EVERCHARIOT

  • ROMOBOYROMOBOY Registered Users Posts: 2,852
    Cadia101 said:

    ROMOBOY said:

    This game’s biggest downside is how it runs. It feels terribly optimized. So if removing this makes the game run much smoother for all paying customers, I’m down.

    Well if it stop peoples to cheat in mp and stop piracy of the latest dlc for a few months, so don’t see why we should get rid of it.

    3K has way better performances and also use denuvo. So I doubt it is the real problem concerning the performances of the game.
    Like @Crossil said. I don’t think it has anything to do with cheating. Even if it did, they could always link some anti-cheat software with the Total War launcher instead.
    "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."
  • UberReptilianUberReptilian U.S.S.RRegistered Users Posts: 2,341
    Just like to point out that the whole Denuvo is useful thing is a lie. TWW2 was cracked just after launch. Well worth the money I’m sure.

    https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/wccftech.com/total-war-warhammer-ii-cracked/amp/
  • WyvaxWyvax Registered Users Posts: 3,544
    edited November 2020

    Just like to point out that the whole Denuvo is useful thing is a lie. TWW2 was cracked just after launch. Well worth the money I’m sure.

    https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/wccftech.com/total-war-warhammer-ii-cracked/amp/

    Not surprising, once WH1 was cracked, it was inevitable for WH2 to be racked in record time. I bet WH3 will be cracked mere hours upon release.
    Tomes read: The Great Betrayal, Master of Dragons, Curse of the Phoenix Crown, Trollslayer, Skavenslayer, Daemonslayer, Dragonslayer, Beastslayer, Vampireslayer, Malekith, The Bloody Handed, Shadow King
    Me when I see a LL character implemented as a LH.

  • RomeoRejectRomeoReject Registered Users Posts: 1,746

    Krzyhar21 said:

    SerPus said:

    Because it's an effective anti-piracy tool?

    Yeah, but it also punishes honest players, not only pirates. I've heard that version without denuovo run much smoother than the legal one. :disappointed:
    I've heard that about every game with Denuvo, and outside of bad implementations, it never seems to hold up. Most games gain a whopping 1-2% FPS.

    To be blunt, if Denuvo was still such an issue with Total Warhammer, we wouldn't just be hearing about it four years in.
    This is incorrect and there a few examples already of far far far more than "1-2% FPS".

    In addition, Denuvo is still an issue in Warhammer 2 performance, is terrible and always has been. People have been complaining since launch how much worse it is than WH1 and just in general anything more than 4k units it just struggles.


    The fact of the matter is whether or not you agree it should be gone. If it is still there and they removed Denuvo from the Steam Store Page, they are lying to their customers and any potential customers. It becomes a legal issue.


    Add in the fact at launch, the Denuvo was cracked and it was the fastest crack of any Denuvo game at that point in time, I believe it still is. So it didn't even do it's job. But again CA need to add in the fact it's still using it on the store page.
    And yet, most of the high profile drops, such as Doom, Final Fantasy and Titanfall gained an incredible... Nothing. Again, yes, some publishers were complete morons about the implementation, but they tend to stand out as exceptions, definitely not the standard. And if Denuvo was the issue, performance wouldn't have degraded over the years, it would've started poor and remained the same.

    I agree that Total Warhammer 2 seems to be holding on by duct tape and hope, however, that's not on Denuvo. If it was, you'd see high-CPU usage (Which is the telling tale of a bad Denuvo implementation). But we don't. In fact, Total Warhammer seems to not use much CPU or GPU in spite of its low performance, which tells us where its performance issues stem from: The engine.
    Crossil said:

    Crossil said:

    so where the warhammer 2 video that shows the effects Denuvo vs cracked version ?

    I don't think there is such a version. From what I know, the cracked versions usually still have denuvo, but somehow bypass its security checks.

    The only comparison we can have are from other games that had denuvo removed by their developers.
    Of course there is.. But it would require one of the people here, on this forum, to admit that he cracked the game instead of paying. It is the equivalent of social suicide... But sure, if that s what is needed to pretend Denuvo is still needed...
    Yeah, sure, social suicide, when the internet is literally filled with cracked games and countless roms of older games and emulators.

    From what I know, no, they don't do that as they don't have the source code, so the optimal way with most DRM methods is usually to make them think they're genuine rather than rewriting internal code they don't know enough about.

    Now I noticed that the video OP posted has first example of it being done. Last year, december.

    Krzyhar21 said:

    SerPus said:

    Because it's an effective anti-piracy tool?

    Yeah, but it also punishes honest players, not only pirates. I've heard that version without denuovo run much smoother than the legal one. :disappointed:
    I've heard that about every game with Denuvo, and outside of bad implementations, it never seems to hold up. Most games gain a whopping 1-2% FPS.

    To be blunt, if Denuvo was still such an issue with Total Warhammer, we wouldn't just be hearing about it four years in.
    And what is there to compare it to, exactly? There hasn't exactly been a time without it you could compare it to.

    You can watch the video OP posted to see a difference here.
    According to NeverBackDown there it's been cracked for years... So why haven't we seen any videos showing the incredible difference between cracked Total Warhammer 2 and standard Total Warhammer 2? Any comparison graphs? Anything?

    A video showing what was one of the single worst implementations in Denuvo history... Riiiiiiiight. That doesn't seem to be trying to paint a specific picture.



    Again, if someone can actually show some evidence of this incredible performance drop we're apparently leaving on the table, I'm all ears. But until then, boisterous claims of this getting Total War Troy levels of performance by dropping it are hilariously far off base.
  • dge1dge1 Moderator Arkansas, USARegistered Users, Moderators, Knights Posts: 20,769
    coury97 said:

    Am i allowed to download a pirate version if i already bought both games plus all DLCs? If so it could be tested, as everyone could. I already pay full price for everything, what's the matter?

    No, you are not. Admission or practice of piracy is an automatic permanent ban from forum activity, and does subject you to any legal remedies Creative Assembly may decide to pursue.

    By the way, this is not a Warhammer discussion. Moved to Tech.
    "The two most common things in the universe are Hydrogen and Stupidity." - Harlan Ellison
    "The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously." - Hubert H. Humphrey
    "Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” - George Carlin/Mark Twain
  • NeverBackDownNeverBackDown Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,862
    edited November 2020

    Krzyhar21 said:

    SerPus said:

    Because it's an effective anti-piracy tool?

    Yeah, but it also punishes honest players, not only pirates. I've heard that version without denuovo run much smoother than the legal one. :disappointed:
    I've heard that about every game with Denuvo, and outside of bad implementations, it never seems to hold up. Most games gain a whopping 1-2% FPS.

    To be blunt, if Denuvo was still such an issue with Total Warhammer, we wouldn't just be hearing about it four years in.
    This is incorrect and there a few examples already of far far far more than "1-2% FPS".

    In addition, Denuvo is still an issue in Warhammer 2 performance, is terrible and always has been. People have been complaining since launch how much worse it is than WH1 and just in general anything more than 4k units it just struggles.


    The fact of the matter is whether or not you agree it should be gone. If it is still there and they removed Denuvo from the Steam Store Page, they are lying to their customers and any potential customers. It becomes a legal issue.


    Add in the fact at launch, the Denuvo was cracked and it was the fastest crack of any Denuvo game at that point in time, I believe it still is. So it didn't even do it's job. But again CA need to add in the fact it's still using it on the store page.
    And yet, most of the high profile drops, such as Doom, Final Fantasy and Titanfall gained an incredible... Nothing. Again, yes, some publishers were complete morons about the implementation, but they tend to stand out as exceptions, definitely not the standard. And if Denuvo was the issue, performance wouldn't have degraded over the years, it would've started poor and remained the same.

    I agree that Total Warhammer 2 seems to be holding on by duct tape and hope, however, that's not on Denuvo. If it was, you'd see high-CPU usage (Which is the telling tale of a bad Denuvo implementation). But we don't. In fact, Total Warhammer seems to not use much CPU or GPU in spite of its low performance, which tells us where its performance issues stem from: The engine.
    Crossil said:

    Crossil said:

    so where the warhammer 2 video that shows the effects Denuvo vs cracked version ?

    I don't think there is such a version. From what I know, the cracked versions usually still have denuvo, but somehow bypass its security checks.

    The only comparison we can have are from other games that had denuvo removed by their developers.
    Of course there is.. But it would require one of the people here, on this forum, to admit that he cracked the game instead of paying. It is the equivalent of social suicide... But sure, if that s what is needed to pretend Denuvo is still needed...
    Yeah, sure, social suicide, when the internet is literally filled with cracked games and countless roms of older games and emulators.

    From what I know, no, they don't do that as they don't have the source code, so the optimal way with most DRM methods is usually to make them think they're genuine rather than rewriting internal code they don't know enough about.

    Now I noticed that the video OP posted has first example of it being done. Last year, december.

    Krzyhar21 said:

    SerPus said:

    Because it's an effective anti-piracy tool?

    Yeah, but it also punishes honest players, not only pirates. I've heard that version without denuovo run much smoother than the legal one. :disappointed:
    I've heard that about every game with Denuvo, and outside of bad implementations, it never seems to hold up. Most games gain a whopping 1-2% FPS.

    To be blunt, if Denuvo was still such an issue with Total Warhammer, we wouldn't just be hearing about it four years in.
    And what is there to compare it to, exactly? There hasn't exactly been a time without it you could compare it to.

    You can watch the video OP posted to see a difference here.
    According to NeverBackDown there it's been cracked for years... So why haven't we seen any videos showing the incredible difference between cracked Total Warhammer 2 and standard Total Warhammer 2? Any comparison graphs? Anything?

    A video showing what was one of the single worst implementations in Denuvo history... Riiiiiiiight. That doesn't seem to be trying to paint a specific picture.



    Again, if someone can actually show some evidence of this incredible performance drop we're apparently leaving on the table, I'm all ears. But until then, boisterous claims of this getting Total War Troy levels of performance by dropping it are hilariously far off base.
    Yeah those games you mentioned are not near the complexity TWWH is. Why even bring them up?

    Doom is a fast paced game. It's made for insane high fps. It therefore is optimized as such to achieve such a feat. It's a linear scripted driven game. Far easier to achieve.


    TW is not optimized that way. Yes they optimize but it's focus is not insane high fps. It's not linear and scripted the way Doom is.

    You are comparing apples to oranges.

    In complex games such as AC Origins being a highlight example, you see massive fps increases. No it's not TW but it's also a huge open world non linear game.

    As for my "claim" of it being cracked it has been. They cracked the game 2 days before it even launched. If you want to find the cracked game be my guest. I won't help you or give you any insight. It's against forum rules. If you don't believe the people who crack and distribute games, then that's on you. Not me to prove.


    As a software engineer, I can tell you it's not as simple as you are making it to be. There's a reason game development costs have far outpaced inflation. Complexity rises with every passing year. That's also why some games are moving to a $70 price tag.
  • NyxilisNyxilis Registered Users Posts: 4,229
    Steam has published more than once details that the games with the DRM like Denovo and without experience no real difference. The majority of people that are going to buy it legally still do. Companies that took this to heart and removed it have said the experienced no.impact on sales. Crooks are crooks, honest are honest.

    DRM does nothing but drain precious resources from the game.
  • Ingr8Ingr8 Registered Users Posts: 1,555
    I expected this thread to go to "Rants"!
    Dreaming of mighty Lumbria

  • ItharusItharus Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 10,665
    Cadia101 said:

    ROMOBOY said:

    This game’s biggest downside is how it runs. It feels terribly optimized. So if removing this makes the game run much smoother for all paying customers, I’m down.

    Well if it stop peoples to cheat in mp and stop piracy of the latest dlc for a few months, so don’t see why we should get rid of it.

    3K has way better performances and also use denuvo. So I doubt it is the real problem concerning the performances of the game.
    Weirdly, for me, 3K runs like total crap. So does Attila. Everything else is acceptable. Attila is possibly the worst running game I've played that actually worked. At least it doesn't crash, though. WH2 crashes :-|
  • RomeoRejectRomeoReject Registered Users Posts: 1,746

    Krzyhar21 said:

    SerPus said:

    Because it's an effective anti-piracy tool?

    Yeah, but it also punishes honest players, not only pirates. I've heard that version without denuovo run much smoother than the legal one. :disappointed:
    I've heard that about every game with Denuvo, and outside of bad implementations, it never seems to hold up. Most games gain a whopping 1-2% FPS.

    To be blunt, if Denuvo was still such an issue with Total Warhammer, we wouldn't just be hearing about it four years in.
    This is incorrect and there a few examples already of far far far more than "1-2% FPS".

    In addition, Denuvo is still an issue in Warhammer 2 performance, is terrible and always has been. People have been complaining since launch how much worse it is than WH1 and just in general anything more than 4k units it just struggles.


    The fact of the matter is whether or not you agree it should be gone. If it is still there and they removed Denuvo from the Steam Store Page, they are lying to their customers and any potential customers. It becomes a legal issue.


    Add in the fact at launch, the Denuvo was cracked and it was the fastest crack of any Denuvo game at that point in time, I believe it still is. So it didn't even do it's job. But again CA need to add in the fact it's still using it on the store page.
    And yet, most of the high profile drops, such as Doom, Final Fantasy and Titanfall gained an incredible... Nothing. Again, yes, some publishers were complete morons about the implementation, but they tend to stand out as exceptions, definitely not the standard. And if Denuvo was the issue, performance wouldn't have degraded over the years, it would've started poor and remained the same.

    I agree that Total Warhammer 2 seems to be holding on by duct tape and hope, however, that's not on Denuvo. If it was, you'd see high-CPU usage (Which is the telling tale of a bad Denuvo implementation). But we don't. In fact, Total Warhammer seems to not use much CPU or GPU in spite of its low performance, which tells us where its performance issues stem from: The engine.
    Crossil said:

    Crossil said:

    so where the warhammer 2 video that shows the effects Denuvo vs cracked version ?

    I don't think there is such a version. From what I know, the cracked versions usually still have denuvo, but somehow bypass its security checks.

    The only comparison we can have are from other games that had denuvo removed by their developers.
    Of course there is.. But it would require one of the people here, on this forum, to admit that he cracked the game instead of paying. It is the equivalent of social suicide... But sure, if that s what is needed to pretend Denuvo is still needed...
    Yeah, sure, social suicide, when the internet is literally filled with cracked games and countless roms of older games and emulators.

    From what I know, no, they don't do that as they don't have the source code, so the optimal way with most DRM methods is usually to make them think they're genuine rather than rewriting internal code they don't know enough about.

    Now I noticed that the video OP posted has first example of it being done. Last year, december.

    Krzyhar21 said:

    SerPus said:

    Because it's an effective anti-piracy tool?

    Yeah, but it also punishes honest players, not only pirates. I've heard that version without denuovo run much smoother than the legal one. :disappointed:
    I've heard that about every game with Denuvo, and outside of bad implementations, it never seems to hold up. Most games gain a whopping 1-2% FPS.

    To be blunt, if Denuvo was still such an issue with Total Warhammer, we wouldn't just be hearing about it four years in.
    And what is there to compare it to, exactly? There hasn't exactly been a time without it you could compare it to.

    You can watch the video OP posted to see a difference here.
    According to NeverBackDown there it's been cracked for years... So why haven't we seen any videos showing the incredible difference between cracked Total Warhammer 2 and standard Total Warhammer 2? Any comparison graphs? Anything?

    A video showing what was one of the single worst implementations in Denuvo history... Riiiiiiiight. That doesn't seem to be trying to paint a specific picture.



    Again, if someone can actually show some evidence of this incredible performance drop we're apparently leaving on the table, I'm all ears. But until then, boisterous claims of this getting Total War Troy levels of performance by dropping it are hilariously far off base.
    Yeah those games you mentioned are not near the complexity TWWH is. Why even bring them up?

    Doom is a fast paced game. It's made for insane high fps. It therefore is optimized as such to achieve such a feat. It's a linear scripted driven game. Far easier to achieve.


    TW is not optimized that way. Yes they optimize but it's focus is not insane high fps. It's not linear and scripted the way Doom is.

    You are comparing apples to oranges.

    In complex games such as AC Origins being a highlight example, you see massive fps increases. No it's not TW but it's also a huge open world non linear game.

    As for my "claim" of it being cracked it has been. They cracked the game 2 days before it even launched. If you want to find the cracked game be my guest. I won't help you or give you any insight. It's against forum rules. If you don't believe the people who crack and distribute games, then that's on you. Not me to prove.


    As a software engineer, I can tell you it's not as simple as you are making it to be. There's a reason game development costs have far outpaced inflation. Complexity rises with every passing year. That's also why some games are moving to a $70 price tag.
    That Doom is so well-optimized should work against your point: Denuvo should be its only weak-point if the engine itself is optimized brilliantly.

    As for your claim of it being cracked, I never doubted that it had been cracked. What I actually said: How come we haven't seen these magical increases you've said? If Denuvo was truly holding it back, why is it in four years, no one has ever posted a comparison showing some increase in performance?
  • psychoakpsychoak Registered Users Posts: 3,254
    This is a dumb argument. Real time security comes with overhead, this isn't arguable.

    Doom is a standard fare FPS. It doesn't have hundreds, or thousands of units on screen. It's CPU usage is extremely small compared to a Total War game. There is a massive difference in the level of calculation needed for pathfinding, AI decision making, damage calculations. You can't simply have a fused map texture that loads the majority of the graphical needs in a single draw call. The only practical limitation on the CPU, is how fast it can feed the GPU, and this equals out to a few hundred FPS for the amount of work it's doing, well beyond the practical needs of the user.

    If Denuvo were to halve this performance level, you'd still not experience a problem.

    For TW, which isn't DX12/Vulkan and thus is heavily single thread performance limited in feeding the GPU, a 10% increase to the overhead of operations, is lethal.

    This bears out in performance testing of Denuvo games. If they're CPU bound, Denuvo is killing their performance. If they're not, all it's doing is increasing load times. You find the same thing with real time anti-virus solutions. Anyone who's seen PC Matic's commercials, has seen them bragging about only killing your computer's performance by 20 some percent.

    The video in the OP is illustrative of this product. Longer load times, and CPU spikes that cause occasional stuttering, even in relatively low utilization games. I say relatively low, because open world RPG's, while massively higher load than Doom, depending on how they're made, are still a small fraction of a large scale threaded RTS system. It's also a video running with an i9 9900K. Which at the time of the video was the fastest performance money could buy.

    VM Protect on top of Denuvo, instead of infrequent stuttering, causes CONSTANT stuttering, because it's running constantly. The video also illustrates that Denuvo is actually fairly good real time protection, whatever Microshit put into Prey is even worse than Denuvo. :)

    Overhead isn't just about performance either. You're using more power to run a Denuvo game, even if it's perfectly fine performance wise. It's wasting resources once it's no longer useful. Denuvo could have zero impact of TW frame rates and load times, and it would still be burning extra energy, which also reduces hardware lifespans. It costs CA/Sega to keep it, it costs us to run it.
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