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Why all TWW2 cavalry units are garbage?

elkappelkapp Registered Users Posts: 1,237
I REFER ONLY TO CAMPAIGN

The idea crossed only recently my mind, but if you think, none of the TWW2 specific races have good cav units.

Let's go through each race.
HE have:
  • silver helms: which can't even defeat a goblin archer unit on a single charge
  • dragon princes: that actually are a good cav when they fight low tier units, which for a T5 expensive unit is like a joke
  • ellyrian reavers: aka worse silver helms but actually better since, even if they will lose almost all serious fight, they are better anti-arty with their big speed
  • ellyrian reaver archers: imo the best HE cav, they have good range and speed, but sadly still overall garbage since they have like negative ammo so it's hard for them to kill even a single unit
Now for the DE:
  • dark riders: ugly ellyrian reavers
  • cold one knights: T4 dark riders but with rampage, make silver helms look op
  • cold one dread knights: melee version of the above, equally ****, if not even more since it's a tier higher
  • doomfire warlocks: good speed, so they at least can take out arty crew, free doombolt, but low af melee stats
  • dark riders with crossbow: actually good if the enemy is stationary and don't shoot back since they have shotgun-tier range, but then one can take the good old darkshard and do everything dark riders do but with more damage and a spit of extra ammo
Lizardmen (what, you forgot LM had cavalry? Don't worry, the devs also did):
  • cold one spear-riders: DE's cold one knights are statistically better (just go to TWW stats if you want a proof)
  • cold one riders: melee verison of the spear-riders, equally good to **** arty's crew and only that
  • horned ones: a serious improvement over cold one riders, but still you can't make a melee cav with 45MA 29MD and pretend it won't be crippled after fighting mid tier units or low tier units with bonus vs large, it just don't work
Tomb Kings:
  • skeleton horsemen: like, a far worse dark rider, and can't even be spammed like skeleton warriors so here you go carrion 2
  • skeleton horsemen archers: overall garbage but TK honestly are all into garbage before constructs, but even then they have low ammo, low damange, and are useless in melee so you might replace one of those with a skeleton warrior and gg it
  • nehekhara horsemen: big increase compared to skeleton horsemen, still have problem beating low tier stuff since skeleton horsemen are a vomit statswise from the start
  • necropolis knights: 66 speed cav so it's cav just because it's classified as such, base variant is 40MA 41MD so stat wise is mediocre, and the halberd variant specifically against cav is good, just the other constructs tomb kings have are insanely superior (both because stats and heal) so necropolis knights are the moslty ignored.
Honestly, it seems strange in a game where ranged is so powerful people at CA thought that cav would have been too op if done right. And, even stranger, all TWW2 races have **** cav (i know, also TWW1 races have **** cav, but they also have some good ones). What do you peple of the forum think? I'm a ****? Or there's an effective link between the 2 and what is the reason behind it? MP balance? Some dev's childhood trauma? Or maybe, one day, they decided to roll a dice and choose what kind of units would have been unfairly nerfed and the unfortunate one was cav?
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Comments

  • jamesbluewavejamesbluewave Registered Users Posts: 531
    Inb4 “get Gud cav is actually good, cav is good, you actually have to use it right, play mp bro”. Like alright, play med 2 and tell me warhammer cav is “good” LMAO.
  • TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001

    Inb4 “get Gud cav is actually good, cav is good, you actually have to use it right, play mp bro”. Like alright, play med 2 and tell me warhammer cav is “good” LMAO.

    Except it's true. Cavalry in this game is capable enough, the real issue is that cavalry is overshadowed massively by ranged units in campaign. Cavalry requires maneuvering, spacing and the accompanying micro management to be effective, ranged units require pointing and clicking and have higher DPS on top of that. And the AI ignore the player's skirmishers in almost all battles but will try and ruin cavalry if it can.

  • jamesbluewavejamesbluewave Registered Users Posts: 531

    Inb4 “get Gud cav is actually good, cav is good, you actually have to use it right, play mp bro”. Like alright, play med 2 and tell me warhammer cav is “good” LMAO.

    Except it's true. Cavalry in this game is capable enough, the real issue is that cavalry is overshadowed massively by ranged units in campaign. Cavalry requires maneuvering, spacing and the accompanying micro management to be effective, ranged units require pointing and clicking and have higher DPS on top of that. And the AI ignore the player's skirmishers in almost all battles but will try and ruin cavalry if it can.

    I don’t think so, cavalry just doesn’t feel strong or sturdy. These are Supposed to be literal tanks moving fast with heavy armor and have a dude, in heavier armor with deadly weapons. They tend to knock down units on the charge but not actually kill anything which is kinda weird and then they die Quickly if you leave them there.

    They should also, literally be able to charge right through weaker sword/axe infantry , like the “ride of the rohirrim” scene from LotR, awe that scene is so epic!!!! In this game, cav just feel like light infantry. They move a little faster, have a weak charge, can’t survive in Melee for long, idk, they just don’t feel like actual heavy cavalry, they feel like fragile, gentle creatures that prefer to push things instead of kill them. They had cav perfect in Rome 1/ medieval 2.

  • veresh1989veresh1989 Russia, Saint-PetersburgRegistered Users Posts: 4,451
    cold one dread knights they die too fast for an elite squad
  • Pocman#6295Pocman#6295 Registered Users Posts: 5,760

    Inb4 “get Gud cav is actually good, cav is good, you actually have to use it right, play mp bro”. Like alright, play med 2 and tell me warhammer cav is “good” LMAO.

    Except it's true. Cavalry in this game is capable enough, the real issue is that cavalry is overshadowed massively by ranged units in campaign. Cavalry requires maneuvering, spacing and the accompanying micro management to be effective, ranged units require pointing and clicking and have higher DPS on top of that. And the AI ignore the player's skirmishers in almost all battles but will try and ruin cavalry if it can.

    I don’t think so, cavalry just doesn’t feel strong or sturdy. These are Supposed to be literal tanks moving fast with heavy armor and have a dude, in heavier armor with deadly weapons. They tend to knock down units on the charge but not actually kill anything which is kinda weird and then they die Quickly if you leave them there.

    They should also, literally be able to charge right through weaker sword/axe infantry , like the “ride of the rohirrim” scene from LotR, awe that scene is so epic!!!! In this game, cav just feel like light infantry. They move a little faster, have a weak charge, can’t survive in Melee for long, idk, they just don’t feel like actual heavy cavalry, they feel like fragile, gentle creatures that prefer to push things instead of kill them. They had cav perfect in Rome 1/ medieval 2.

    What difficulty are you playing in?
  • jamesbluewavejamesbluewave Registered Users Posts: 531
    Pocman said:

    Inb4 “get Gud cav is actually good, cav is good, you actually have to use it right, play mp bro”. Like alright, play med 2 and tell me warhammer cav is “good” LMAO.

    Except it's true. Cavalry in this game is capable enough, the real issue is that cavalry is overshadowed massively by ranged units in campaign. Cavalry requires maneuvering, spacing and the accompanying micro management to be effective, ranged units require pointing and clicking and have higher DPS on top of that. And the AI ignore the player's skirmishers in almost all battles but will try and ruin cavalry if it can.

    I don’t think so, cavalry just doesn’t feel strong or sturdy. These are Supposed to be literal tanks moving fast with heavy armor and have a dude, in heavier armor with deadly weapons. They tend to knock down units on the charge but not actually kill anything which is kinda weird and then they die Quickly if you leave them there.

    They should also, literally be able to charge right through weaker sword/axe infantry , like the “ride of the rohirrim” scene from LotR, awe that scene is so epic!!!! In this game, cav just feel like light infantry. They move a little faster, have a weak charge, can’t survive in Melee for long, idk, they just don’t feel like actual heavy cavalry, they feel like fragile, gentle creatures that prefer to push things instead of kill them. They had cav perfect in Rome 1/ medieval 2.

    What difficulty are you playing in?
    Everything from normal to very hard. But this doesn’t affect cavs effectiveness that much as their main job is kill archers/flank and run down units where 95% of their kills actually come from.

    They’re just not effective, that charge bonus needs a huge buff to actually kill things instead of just knock them over and they need to have a bit of survivabilty in combat if they’re heavy cav.

    Constant cycle charging is ridiculous and rather tedious gameplay , it not hard or complicated or rewarding, any Shmuck can click move forward and back 10 times...... you should just charge it in2 the rear or flank and the infantry unit should flat out die or rout, just like old TW games
  • TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001

    Inb4 “get Gud cav is actually good, cav is good, you actually have to use it right, play mp bro”. Like alright, play med 2 and tell me warhammer cav is “good” LMAO.

    Except it's true. Cavalry in this game is capable enough, the real issue is that cavalry is overshadowed massively by ranged units in campaign. Cavalry requires maneuvering, spacing and the accompanying micro management to be effective, ranged units require pointing and clicking and have higher DPS on top of that. And the AI ignore the player's skirmishers in almost all battles but will try and ruin cavalry if it can.

    I don’t think so, cavalry just doesn’t feel strong or sturdy. These are Supposed to be literal tanks moving fast with heavy armor and have a dude, in heavier armor with deadly weapons. They tend to knock down units on the charge but not actually kill anything which is kinda weird and then they die Quickly if you leave them there.

    They should also, literally be able to charge right through weaker sword/axe infantry , like the “ride of the rohirrim” scene from LotR, awe that scene is so epic!!!! In this game, cav just feel like light infantry. They move a little faster, have a weak charge, can’t survive in Melee for long, idk, they just don’t feel like actual heavy cavalry, they feel like fragile, gentle creatures that prefer to push things instead of kill them. They had cav perfect in Rome 1/ medieval 2.

    OK, you just have very unrealistic opinions of what cavalry should be capable of doing and they should definitely not just ride through infantry. Monsters already do that thanks to a bug and it's absolutely terrible.
  • jamesbluewavejamesbluewave Registered Users Posts: 531

    Inb4 “get Gud cav is actually good, cav is good, you actually have to use it right, play mp bro”. Like alright, play med 2 and tell me warhammer cav is “good” LMAO.

    Except it's true. Cavalry in this game is capable enough, the real issue is that cavalry is overshadowed massively by ranged units in campaign. Cavalry requires maneuvering, spacing and the accompanying micro management to be effective, ranged units require pointing and clicking and have higher DPS on top of that. And the AI ignore the player's skirmishers in almost all battles but will try and ruin cavalry if it can.

    I don’t think so, cavalry just doesn’t feel strong or sturdy. These are Supposed to be literal tanks moving fast with heavy armor and have a dude, in heavier armor with deadly weapons. They tend to knock down units on the charge but not actually kill anything which is kinda weird and then they die Quickly if you leave them there.

    They should also, literally be able to charge right through weaker sword/axe infantry , like the “ride of the rohirrim” scene from LotR, awe that scene is so epic!!!! In this game, cav just feel like light infantry. They move a little faster, have a weak charge, can’t survive in Melee for long, idk, they just don’t feel like actual heavy cavalry, they feel like fragile, gentle creatures that prefer to push things instead of kill them. They had cav perfect in Rome 1/ medieval 2.

    OK, you just have very unrealistic opinions of what cavalry should be capable of doing and they should definitely not just ride through infantry. Monsters already do that thanks to a bug and it's absolutely terrible.
    So, you think if you stood there and a horse in full armor, ran at you full speed with a dude with a huge sword or lance You would still be standing? Or even the 3 or 4 guys behind you??? You think that formation would hold??? Like even for 5 seconds??? I think your approach is a bunch more unrealistic.
  • TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001

    Inb4 “get Gud cav is actually good, cav is good, you actually have to use it right, play mp bro”. Like alright, play med 2 and tell me warhammer cav is “good” LMAO.

    Except it's true. Cavalry in this game is capable enough, the real issue is that cavalry is overshadowed massively by ranged units in campaign. Cavalry requires maneuvering, spacing and the accompanying micro management to be effective, ranged units require pointing and clicking and have higher DPS on top of that. And the AI ignore the player's skirmishers in almost all battles but will try and ruin cavalry if it can.

    I don’t think so, cavalry just doesn’t feel strong or sturdy. These are Supposed to be literal tanks moving fast with heavy armor and have a dude, in heavier armor with deadly weapons. They tend to knock down units on the charge but not actually kill anything which is kinda weird and then they die Quickly if you leave them there.

    They should also, literally be able to charge right through weaker sword/axe infantry , like the “ride of the rohirrim” scene from LotR, awe that scene is so epic!!!! In this game, cav just feel like light infantry. They move a little faster, have a weak charge, can’t survive in Melee for long, idk, they just don’t feel like actual heavy cavalry, they feel like fragile, gentle creatures that prefer to push things instead of kill them. They had cav perfect in Rome 1/ medieval 2.

    OK, you just have very unrealistic opinions of what cavalry should be capable of doing and they should definitely not just ride through infantry. Monsters already do that thanks to a bug and it's absolutely terrible.
    So, you think if you stood there and a horse in full armor, ran at you full speed with a dude with a huge sword or lance You would still be standing? Or even the 3 or 4 guys behind you??? You think that formation would hold??? Like even for 5 seconds??? I think your approach is a bunch more unrealistic.
    It's not one dude, it's a block of dudes, potentially clad in heavy armor and if they stand their ground, it's like running into a wall.

    You know, horses don't tend to ride straight into solid obstacles because they're not unfeeling, steel-hard robots. A horse with a broken leg is a horse ripe for the knacker.
  • Jman5#8318Jman5#8318 Registered Users Posts: 2,167
    Part of the problem with the campaign is that because there are no serious cost or supply constraints on armies, you're always going to progress into using the ultra-expensive units. Why bother with an Ellyrian Reaver or any other cost-effective unit, when you can slot in a Star Dragon, or Sister, or a level 40 noble instead?

    The second problem (I know I sound like a broken record here) is that because the AI is so bad against range and difficulty modifiers discourage using melee, it makes cavalry look even less impressive comparatively.
  • jamesbluewavejamesbluewave Registered Users Posts: 531

    Inb4 “get Gud cav is actually good, cav is good, you actually have to use it right, play mp bro”. Like alright, play med 2 and tell me warhammer cav is “good” LMAO.

    Except it's true. Cavalry in this game is capable enough, the real issue is that cavalry is overshadowed massively by ranged units in campaign. Cavalry requires maneuvering, spacing and the accompanying micro management to be effective, ranged units require pointing and clicking and have higher DPS on top of that. And the AI ignore the player's skirmishers in almost all battles but will try and ruin cavalry if it can.

    I don’t think so, cavalry just doesn’t feel strong or sturdy. These are Supposed to be literal tanks moving fast with heavy armor and have a dude, in heavier armor with deadly weapons. They tend to knock down units on the charge but not actually kill anything which is kinda weird and then they die Quickly if you leave them there.

    They should also, literally be able to charge right through weaker sword/axe infantry , like the “ride of the rohirrim” scene from LotR, awe that scene is so epic!!!! In this game, cav just feel like light infantry. They move a little faster, have a weak charge, can’t survive in Melee for long, idk, they just don’t feel like actual heavy cavalry, they feel like fragile, gentle creatures that prefer to push things instead of kill them. They had cav perfect in Rome 1/ medieval 2.

    OK, you just have very unrealistic opinions of what cavalry should be capable of doing and they should definitely not just ride through infantry. Monsters already do that thanks to a bug and it's absolutely terrible.
    So, you think if you stood there and a horse in full armor, ran at you full speed with a dude with a huge sword or lance You would still be standing? Or even the 3 or 4 guys behind you??? You think that formation would hold??? Like even for 5 seconds??? I think your approach is a bunch more unrealistic.
    It's not one dude, it's a block of dudes, potentially clad in heavy armor and if they stand their ground, it's like running into a wall.

    You know, horses don't tend to ride straight into solid obstacles because they're not unfeeling, steel-hard robots. A horse with a broken leg is a horse ripe for the knacker.
    And it’s not one horse.....it’s a block of horses.......and yes they do, that’s why they kept cavalry around up until literally world war 1...... the nobles and leaders always fought on horseback because it was OP. So yea they’ll ride straight through infantry. No problem.

    Solid objects or formations, sure, they’ll struggle, but there’s none of that in warhammer. I don’t recall ever having access to stakes or spear wall in this game. If a unit has this, enlighten me.
  • TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001

    Inb4 “get Gud cav is actually good, cav is good, you actually have to use it right, play mp bro”. Like alright, play med 2 and tell me warhammer cav is “good” LMAO.

    Except it's true. Cavalry in this game is capable enough, the real issue is that cavalry is overshadowed massively by ranged units in campaign. Cavalry requires maneuvering, spacing and the accompanying micro management to be effective, ranged units require pointing and clicking and have higher DPS on top of that. And the AI ignore the player's skirmishers in almost all battles but will try and ruin cavalry if it can.

    I don’t think so, cavalry just doesn’t feel strong or sturdy. These are Supposed to be literal tanks moving fast with heavy armor and have a dude, in heavier armor with deadly weapons. They tend to knock down units on the charge but not actually kill anything which is kinda weird and then they die Quickly if you leave them there.

    They should also, literally be able to charge right through weaker sword/axe infantry , like the “ride of the rohirrim” scene from LotR, awe that scene is so epic!!!! In this game, cav just feel like light infantry. They move a little faster, have a weak charge, can’t survive in Melee for long, idk, they just don’t feel like actual heavy cavalry, they feel like fragile, gentle creatures that prefer to push things instead of kill them. They had cav perfect in Rome 1/ medieval 2.

    OK, you just have very unrealistic opinions of what cavalry should be capable of doing and they should definitely not just ride through infantry. Monsters already do that thanks to a bug and it's absolutely terrible.
    So, you think if you stood there and a horse in full armor, ran at you full speed with a dude with a huge sword or lance You would still be standing? Or even the 3 or 4 guys behind you??? You think that formation would hold??? Like even for 5 seconds??? I think your approach is a bunch more unrealistic.
    It's not one dude, it's a block of dudes, potentially clad in heavy armor and if they stand their ground, it's like running into a wall.

    You know, horses don't tend to ride straight into solid obstacles because they're not unfeeling, steel-hard robots. A horse with a broken leg is a horse ripe for the knacker.
    And it’s not one horse.....it’s a block of horses.......and yes they do, that’s why they kept cavalry around up until literally world war 1...... the nobles and leaders always fought on horseback because it was OP. So yea they’ll ride straight through infantry. No problem.

    Solid objects or formations, sure, they’ll struggle, but there’s none of that in warhammer. I don’t recall ever having access to stakes or spear wall in this game. If a unit has this, enlighten me.
    Sorry, but LotR is definitely not an accurate depiction of how cavalry was used in warfare. Cavalry dominated the battlefields in exactly one small section of history, the early and high middle ages when armies consisted for the most part of feudal levies who'd break as soon as they saw heavy horse charging at them. Any time professional infantry was on the field, this sort of tactic was out of the question because you can't charge into soldiers holding their ground.

    You know what happens when a block of horses runs into a solid wall? O yeah, they'll run into each other and cause even more injury.
  • saweendra#3399saweendra#3399 Registered Users Posts: 19,583

    Inb4 “get Gud cav is actually good, cav is good, you actually have to use it right, play mp bro”. Like alright, play med 2 and tell me warhammer cav is “good” LMAO.





    here you go probably the two best players of TWW playing each other see how much cav they use. and learn how to use them







    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc


  • HowTheStarsBurn#4488HowTheStarsBurn#4488 Registered Users Posts: 771
    edited November 2020
    Cav does not ride through infantry formations IRL, lol what world are you living in bro? Here's how a medieval warfare historian sums it up:

    "The answer is that cavalry really isn't all that effective against disciplined infantry, emphasis on disciplined. Generally. what we see when we look at ancient and medieval battles is that commanders who order cavalry charges into infantry formations who hold together and are bracing for the charge lose horribly."

    Exactly like we see in game.

    Here is a quote from the wiki on cav charges:

    Historians such as John Keegan have shown that when correctly prepared against (such as by improvising fortifications) and, especially, by standing firm in face of the onslaught, cavalry charges often failed against infantry, with horses refusing to gallop into the dense mass of enemies,[4] or the charging unit itself breaking up.
  • elkappelkapp Registered Users Posts: 1,237
    You guys are missing a big point.
    Cav is **** not only because battle modifiers. Yes, they nerf melee badly, but actually this game have for meta both ranged and monster, so technically monsters should suck in VH, but actually they don't (at least, the good ones). Monsters are good in VH and even better in N, so by logic if a cavalry unit would be really good in N therefore in VH it's decent or good. Generally, for my experience, this law is correct, aka melee units that perform good in VH perform really well in N, so, the question to ask is "cav is good in N?". And the answer is no. They are mediocre at best, but not good enough.

    I can tell you from my experience one of the hardest thing i tried to do in my first N/N campaign as HE was to create a decent cav based army. The problem was that it underperformed my base armies (which were lothern seaguard spam because i didn't have the dlc since that was my first TWW2 campaign). I even tried to search online for guides on how to use cav properly, because it felt wrong that a T3 unit would be so powerful compared to a T5 unit, and didn't found a ****. The only thing everyone said was "shock cav good to cycle charge" which was what i already was doing all the time (you don't need to be a genius to understand that good charge bonus = better to charge again and again).
    Only later, by watching other people play, i understood that the problem was not me but the game that shitted on cav like it was getting paid for it.
  • elkappelkapp Registered Users Posts: 1,237
    AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
    THIS GAME IS NOT REALISTIC DON'T TRY TO JUSTIFY THE LACK OF BALANCE THROUGH REALISM.
    ALSO, I SPECIFICALLY WROTE CAMPAIGN ONLY AT THE TOP OF THE MAIN POST, SO PLEASE, REMAIN COHERENT TO THE TOPIC PLEASE.
  • fan3982173917524862fan3982173917524862 Registered Users Posts: 1,584
    Extremely small maps that do not give enough room to maneuver. AI only engaging in field battles if they outnumber you, leaving you unable to flank, as their units will usually be spread to the whole width of the map. Bugged interactions of cav charges when chasing units and attacking units that aren't in tight formations. The existence of Monsters and Magic, which overshadow cavalry.
  • saweendra#3399saweendra#3399 Registered Users Posts: 19,583
    i mean the whole campagain balance is currently f up, its not Cav issue, cav work fine in MP.

    what need to happen nerf buff stacking
    add soft caps
    make difficulty modifiers mean some thing
    remove AI cheats
    Improve AI both battle field wise and camapagin wise,
    and nerf range as a whole
    add ways to stop casting magic.

    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc


  • jamesbluewavejamesbluewave Registered Users Posts: 531

    Inb4 “get Gud cav is actually good, cav is good, you actually have to use it right, play mp bro”. Like alright, play med 2 and tell me warhammer cav is “good” LMAO.

    Except it's true. Cavalry in this game is capable enough, the real issue is that cavalry is overshadowed massively by ranged units in campaign. Cavalry requires maneuvering, spacing and the accompanying micro management to be effective, ranged units require pointing and clicking and have higher DPS on top of that. And the AI ignore the player's skirmishers in almost all battles but will try and ruin cavalry if it can.

    I don’t think so, cavalry just doesn’t feel strong or sturdy. These are Supposed to be literal tanks moving fast with heavy armor and have a dude, in heavier armor with deadly weapons. They tend to knock down units on the charge but not actually kill anything which is kinda weird and then they die Quickly if you leave them there.

    They should also, literally be able to charge right through weaker sword/axe infantry , like the “ride of the rohirrim” scene from LotR, awe that scene is so epic!!!! In this game, cav just feel like light infantry. They move a little faster, have a weak charge, can’t survive in Melee for long, idk, they just don’t feel like actual heavy cavalry, they feel like fragile, gentle creatures that prefer to push things instead of kill them. They had cav perfect in Rome 1/ medieval 2.

    OK, you just have very unrealistic opinions of what cavalry should be capable of doing and they should definitely not just ride through infantry. Monsters already do that thanks to a bug and it's absolutely terrible.
    So, you think if you stood there and a horse in full armor, ran at you full speed with a dude with a huge sword or lance You would still be standing? Or even the 3 or 4 guys behind you??? You think that formation would hold??? Like even for 5 seconds??? I think your approach is a bunch more unrealistic.
    It's not one dude, it's a block of dudes, potentially clad in heavy armor and if they stand their ground, it's like running into a wall.

    You know, horses don't tend to ride straight into solid obstacles because they're not unfeeling, steel-hard robots. A horse with a broken leg is a horse ripe for the knacker.
    And it’s not one horse.....it’s a block of horses.......and yes they do, that’s why they kept cavalry around up until literally world war 1...... the nobles and leaders always fought on horseback because it was OP. So yea they’ll ride straight through infantry. No problem.

    Solid objects or formations, sure, they’ll struggle, but there’s none of that in warhammer. I don’t recall ever having access to stakes or spear wall in this game. If a unit has this, enlighten me.
    Sorry, but LotR is definitely not an accurate depiction of how cavalry was used in warfare. Cavalry dominated the battlefields in exactly one small section of history, the early and high middle ages when armies consisted for the most part of feudal levies who'd break as soon as they saw heavy horse charging at them. Any time professional infantry was on the field, this sort of tactic was out of the question because you can't charge into soldiers holding their ground.

    You know what happens when a block of horses runs into a solid wall? O yeah, they'll run into each other and cause even more injury.
    Nope! It dominated the classical era and possibly b4 all the way up until late medieval period and remained effective up until a little after the Napoleonic.


    Do you really think countries would keep horse regiments around and take them to battle just to look pretty?? No! They kept them because they were effective . It’s why horses, spears, swords, etc are all gone from modern combat, they lost effectiveness as time goes.

    And no, the avg unit in warhammer should stand no chance against cavalry charge. 1)yes, weak horses wouldn’t always Charge a formation, but you know what? Historically nations didn’t breed these or put them in heavy cavalry regiments that needed to charge. 2)the more armor on the horse, the more devastating the charge, 3) a lot of units in this game have no business surviving a cav charge. There aren’t even formations like spear wall ....probably the most streamlined relationship ever depicted between cavalry/infantry engagements which is why it looks and feels so wrong.
  • jamesbluewavejamesbluewave Registered Users Posts: 531
    OP, there was a thread similar to this like a few days ago, and the general answer you’ll get is 1) they’ll blame supply lines 2) say there’s better options like SEMS therefore Units need Caps 3) cavalry actually works, get good scrub. 4)my answer, which is they don’t actually feel like heavy cavalry and the relationship between cavalry/infantry is streamlined due to lack of formations/obstacles so now cav just act generally weird.
  • HowTheStarsBurn#4488HowTheStarsBurn#4488 Registered Users Posts: 771

    Inb4 “get Gud cav is actually good, cav is good, you actually have to use it right, play mp bro”. Like alright, play med 2 and tell me warhammer cav is “good” LMAO.

    Except it's true. Cavalry in this game is capable enough, the real issue is that cavalry is overshadowed massively by ranged units in campaign. Cavalry requires maneuvering, spacing and the accompanying micro management to be effective, ranged units require pointing and clicking and have higher DPS on top of that. And the AI ignore the player's skirmishers in almost all battles but will try and ruin cavalry if it can.

    I don’t think so, cavalry just doesn’t feel strong or sturdy. These are Supposed to be literal tanks moving fast with heavy armor and have a dude, in heavier armor with deadly weapons. They tend to knock down units on the charge but not actually kill anything which is kinda weird and then they die Quickly if you leave them there.

    They should also, literally be able to charge right through weaker sword/axe infantry , like the “ride of the rohirrim” scene from LotR, awe that scene is so epic!!!! In this game, cav just feel like light infantry. They move a little faster, have a weak charge, can’t survive in Melee for long, idk, they just don’t feel like actual heavy cavalry, they feel like fragile, gentle creatures that prefer to push things instead of kill them. They had cav perfect in Rome 1/ medieval 2.

    OK, you just have very unrealistic opinions of what cavalry should be capable of doing and they should definitely not just ride through infantry. Monsters already do that thanks to a bug and it's absolutely terrible.
    So, you think if you stood there and a horse in full armor, ran at you full speed with a dude with a huge sword or lance You would still be standing? Or even the 3 or 4 guys behind you??? You think that formation would hold??? Like even for 5 seconds??? I think your approach is a bunch more unrealistic.
    It's not one dude, it's a block of dudes, potentially clad in heavy armor and if they stand their ground, it's like running into a wall.

    You know, horses don't tend to ride straight into solid obstacles because they're not unfeeling, steel-hard robots. A horse with a broken leg is a horse ripe for the knacker.
    And it’s not one horse.....it’s a block of horses.......and yes they do, that’s why they kept cavalry around up until literally world war 1...... the nobles and leaders always fought on horseback because it was OP. So yea they’ll ride straight through infantry. No problem.

    Solid objects or formations, sure, they’ll struggle, but there’s none of that in warhammer. I don’t recall ever having access to stakes or spear wall in this game. If a unit has this, enlighten me.
    Sorry, but LotR is definitely not an accurate depiction of how cavalry was used in warfare. Cavalry dominated the battlefields in exactly one small section of history, the early and high middle ages when armies consisted for the most part of feudal levies who'd break as soon as they saw heavy horse charging at them. Any time professional infantry was on the field, this sort of tactic was out of the question because you can't charge into soldiers holding their ground.

    You know what happens when a block of horses runs into a solid wall? O yeah, they'll run into each other and cause even more injury.
    Nope! It dominated the classical era and possibly b4 all the way up until late medieval period and remained effective up until a little after the Napoleonic.


    Do you really think countries would keep horse regiments around and take them to battle just to look pretty?? No! They kept them because they were effective . It’s why horses, spears, swords, etc are all gone from modern combat, they lost effectiveness as time goes.

    And no, the avg unit in warhammer should stand no chance against cavalry charge. 1)yes, weak horses wouldn’t always Charge a formation, but you know what? Historically nations didn’t breed these or put them in heavy cavalry regiments that needed to charge. 2)the more armor on the horse, the more devastating the charge, 3) a lot of units in this game have no business surviving a cav charge. There aren’t even formations like spear wall ....probably the most streamlined relationship ever depicted between cavalry/infantry engagements which is why it looks and feels so wrong.
    Did you ignore all the parts where I gave you actual expert opinions that completely disagreed with you?
  • jamesbluewavejamesbluewave Registered Users Posts: 531

    Inb4 “get Gud cav is actually good, cav is good, you actually have to use it right, play mp bro”. Like alright, play med 2 and tell me warhammer cav is “good” LMAO.

    Except it's true. Cavalry in this game is capable enough, the real issue is that cavalry is overshadowed massively by ranged units in campaign. Cavalry requires maneuvering, spacing and the accompanying micro management to be effective, ranged units require pointing and clicking and have higher DPS on top of that. And the AI ignore the player's skirmishers in almost all battles but will try and ruin cavalry if it can.

    I don’t think so, cavalry just doesn’t feel strong or sturdy. These are Supposed to be literal tanks moving fast with heavy armor and have a dude, in heavier armor with deadly weapons. They tend to knock down units on the charge but not actually kill anything which is kinda weird and then they die Quickly if you leave them there.

    They should also, literally be able to charge right through weaker sword/axe infantry , like the “ride of the rohirrim” scene from LotR, awe that scene is so epic!!!! In this game, cav just feel like light infantry. They move a little faster, have a weak charge, can’t survive in Melee for long, idk, they just don’t feel like actual heavy cavalry, they feel like fragile, gentle creatures that prefer to push things instead of kill them. They had cav perfect in Rome 1/ medieval 2.

    OK, you just have very unrealistic opinions of what cavalry should be capable of doing and they should definitely not just ride through infantry. Monsters already do that thanks to a bug and it's absolutely terrible.
    So, you think if you stood there and a horse in full armor, ran at you full speed with a dude with a huge sword or lance You would still be standing? Or even the 3 or 4 guys behind you??? You think that formation would hold??? Like even for 5 seconds??? I think your approach is a bunch more unrealistic.
    It's not one dude, it's a block of dudes, potentially clad in heavy armor and if they stand their ground, it's like running into a wall.

    You know, horses don't tend to ride straight into solid obstacles because they're not unfeeling, steel-hard robots. A horse with a broken leg is a horse ripe for the knacker.
    And it’s not one horse.....it’s a block of horses.......and yes they do, that’s why they kept cavalry around up until literally world war 1...... the nobles and leaders always fought on horseback because it was OP. So yea they’ll ride straight through infantry. No problem.

    Solid objects or formations, sure, they’ll struggle, but there’s none of that in warhammer. I don’t recall ever having access to stakes or spear wall in this game. If a unit has this, enlighten me.
    Sorry, but LotR is definitely not an accurate depiction of how cavalry was used in warfare. Cavalry dominated the battlefields in exactly one small section of history, the early and high middle ages when armies consisted for the most part of feudal levies who'd break as soon as they saw heavy horse charging at them. Any time professional infantry was on the field, this sort of tactic was out of the question because you can't charge into soldiers holding their ground.

    You know what happens when a block of horses runs into a solid wall? O yeah, they'll run into each other and cause even more injury.
    Nope! It dominated the classical era and possibly b4 all the way up until late medieval period and remained effective up until a little after the Napoleonic.


    Do you really think countries would keep horse regiments around and take them to battle just to look pretty?? No! They kept them because they were effective . It’s why horses, spears, swords, etc are all gone from modern combat, they lost effectiveness as time goes.

    And no, the avg unit in warhammer should stand no chance against cavalry charge. 1)yes, weak horses wouldn’t always Charge a formation, but you know what? Historically nations didn’t breed these or put them in heavy cavalry regiments that needed to charge. 2)the more armor on the horse, the more devastating the charge, 3) a lot of units in this game have no business surviving a cav charge. There aren’t even formations like spear wall ....probably the most streamlined relationship ever depicted between cavalry/infantry engagements which is why it looks and feels so wrong.
    Did you ignore all the parts where I gave you actual expert opinions that completely disagreed with you?
    I didn’t see it, sorry , But anyways I don’t want to persist in the derailment of the thread so I just left the OP an answer as to why I think cav sucks in this game and the answers he’ll likely get because this was covered not long ago. Clearly there’s disagreements and I’d rather see cav be awesome, while others like seeing them run back and forth(cycle charging). To each their own.
  • Vanilla_Gorilla#8529Vanilla_Gorilla#8529 Registered Users Posts: 39,780
    They aren't.
    There are only two people better than me, and I'm both of them" - Vanilla Gorilla I am The Beast, Descendant of Guanyin, The one who beasts 25 hours a day, 8 days a week, The Vanilla Gorilla, The great bright delight, Conqueror of Mountains, Purveyor of wisdom, Official forum historian, Master Tamer of energy, the one they fear to name, Beastradamus, The Teacher, Master Unbiased Pollster, The Avatar of Tuesday, Chief hype Train Conductor, Uwu Usurper, Pog Wog Warrior, Poggers Patroller, Alpha of the species, Apex protector, Praetor of Positivity, Drybrush Disciple, Sophisticated Savage.
  • Surge_2#1464Surge_2#1464 Registered Users Posts: 11,954

    cold one dread knights they die too fast for an elite squad

    Yep. I just weep when I play DE because Cold One Knights are so poor.

    Honestly the only faction I enjoy playing with Cav, is Brets.
    Kneel

  • Neodeinos#5871Neodeinos#5871 Registered Users Posts: 16,118
    Surge_2 said:

    cold one dread knights they die too fast for an elite squad

    Yep. I just weep when I play DE because Cold One Knights are so poor.

    Honestly the only faction I enjoy playing with Cav, is Brets.
    Yeah the Cold One Knights really aren't that good and the only lord that should be THE lord buffing them (Malus) only gives them an upkeep and recruitment cost reduction. I get that CA wanted to focus on the character of Malus but buffing the cold ones was something really obvious for him.
  • DyesevnDyesevn Registered Users Posts: 132
    I had fun using malus and imrik with giant stacks of dragon princes and dread knights. they're definitely not the most effective units though. single entities always perform better because their damage doesn't taper off as they get damaged.

    I would be fine with some type of rework to the charge bonus. temporary damage resistance? temporary weapon damage buff?

    hammer and anvil does have its place but the slow heavy cav just doesn't offer enough benefits over light fast cav for rear charges.

    doomfire warlocks are some of the best cav in the game for hammer and anvil with their poison debuffs,spells, and quick speed
  • Warlord_Lu_Bu#2268Warlord_Lu_Bu#2268 Registered Users Posts: 3,208
    ....? I primarily use Cavalry on all factions with cavalry and find it works fine. It's not great like it is in TW Three Kingdoms, but it's decent enough not to complain about.

    The Shock cavalry does seem worthless in Warhammer, but that's probably because of all that stupid "ward save" bs. The Tomb Kings have pretty solid cavalry and chariots though... I've utterly slaughtered Chaos with Tomb King Cavalry, while my HE cavalry would have much difficulty dealing with.
    "I am the punishment of Tengger, if you had not sinned, he would not have sent me against you." - Chinghis Haan Temujin
  • Eterlik#9017Eterlik#9017 Registered Users Posts: 458
    I only play campaign. I must disagree with your statement OP.
    Cav is super strong. I always try to get them as soon as possible. Ai always recruites a ton of archers which can be killed quickly by 2-3 medium/heavy cav units. Most of the time afterwards having still around 50% hp left. So now your cav is behind the enemy lines and can do some devastating rear charges into the enemys frontline which often results in the enemy fleeing due to burst of incoming damage. We all know how it ends if your try fleeing from cav.

    Also you need to know what the specific cav is good for else they will die quickly.
    Armor piercing damage? Nice you can rear charge enemys with high armor.
    No armor piercing? You can kill archers easly
    Anti-large? Go kill some cav or monstrous infantry
    High charge bonus? Be carfull to not let them long in fights. they tend to have lower overall stats
    low charge bonus low stats, but high unit count? = light cav. Best used to kill fleeing enemys easy kills on some fleeing large units. But can also deal with lightly armored archers
    Chariot? never stop moving around. Deals damage while moving through units.

    Leave the frontal charge to monstrous infantry

    If cav would destroy invantry with one charge, what would be the point in bringing any infantry to the battlefield?
  • Surge_2#1464Surge_2#1464 Registered Users Posts: 11,954
    I think the issue is that in campaign, you don't need cab to do those things.

    Just get more of X and win that way.

    Cav is under powered. Truly.
    Kneel

  • MaleAmazonMaleAmazon Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 717
    The reason cavalry (if by cavalry you mean the garden variety kind with many models per unit) is so bad in WH2, especially on higher difficulties, is a combination of AI morale buffs and simply bad stats.

    Monsters that work like cavalry, such as carnosaurs, are quite a lot better than regular many-model cavalry.

    Cavalry in WH2 often rely on their charge stat to cause casualties, since their actual melee stats are pretty mediocre. However, they just don´t cause that many casualties - they just knock units back, units that then get up again and fight the cavalry in melee. Cycle charging is kind of, but not super, useful.

    Combine this with the fact that AI morale is generally too high in WH2 (the AI essentially always fights to the death on VH battle difficulty), the AI gets disproportionate melee buffs, and lastly that units tire in seconds but take forever to get their stamina back, and you get the result that most cavalry is just bad.

    Contrast this with chariots which are generally much more useful, and fulfil very much the same role.

    Cavalry is much better in TW:Attila and 3 Kingdoms, despite them being very similar to WH2. 3K shock cavalry can absolutely melt a unit on a rear charge, and Attila spear cavalry are real killers too.

    In the end, they are different games. WH2 is not a very good strategy game as such, to be honest... it is more about using OP stuff, abuse rules, and exploiting AI idiocy to win.

    Bretonnia cavalry is pretty decent though, perhaps partly because almost all of their top tier cavalry doesn´t tire in combat.
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