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The Age Of High Mass Is Over - The Time of Infantry Has Begun

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  • another505another505 Registered Users Posts: 2,759
    I also hope this change meant that melee cav characters dont get stun as often too
  • Lord_DistamorfinLord_Distamorfin Registered Users Posts: 1,250
    Green0 said:

    awful changes and completely unwarranted, will upset MP balancing heavily and many units will need 100s of gold worth of nerfs to become balanced after this choice.

    Ungrim, Grombrindal & Co. are basically now full-fledged SEMs without the M part, meaning that even traditional counters like missiles and AL cav won't work against them, making the only reliable counters either elite infantry (which not all factions have) or other duelist characters (yay RNG!)

    There's nothing wrong with upsetting MP balance. Metas are meant to change with time and a big content update is supposed to upset the balance. People make new strategies, old ones get shelved: that's the nature of an ever changing multiplayer game.

    Besides, foot lords have been abject garbage for the entire life of this game. The fact that CA is finally doing something to rectify the situation is a good thing.
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 5,819
    You only dive into a foot lord blob with flash bomb if you have a death wish though, or use a summon. I really really hope they got this right but from the looks of it it's virtually immunity to knockdowns for practical purposes, and I have a really bad feeling about what this can do to game play dynamics together with the other changes. If we get competitive camping this game is dead to me. Please let me be wrong and please tell me CA tested this really thoroughly at comp level before releasing it.
  • WojmirVonCarsteinWojmirVonCarstein Registered Users Posts: 1,359

    You only dive into a foot lord blob with flash bomb if you have a death wish though, or use a summon. I really really hope they got this right but from the looks of it it's virtually immunity to knockdowns for practical purposes, and I have a really bad feeling about what this can do to game play dynamics together with the other changes. If we get competitive camping this game is dead to me. Please let me be wrong and please tell me CA tested this really thoroughly at comp level before releasing it.

    Didn't Skarsnik already have this before this incoming patch?
  • DaBoyzAreBackInTownDaBoyzAreBackInTown Registered Users Posts: 325
    Looks like it is shaking up to be a massive meta-shift this patch. And we haven't even seen unit changes yet, so could be a lot more to come.

    In regards to the changes to knockdown immunity and bracing for infantry, all of the concerns about excessive boxing are completely warranted. This change seems almost guaranteed to buff box/camping strategies, no longer being able to knockover hero squads as easily or penetrate backlines will lead to a huge meta change and realistically not all for the better.

    But it is worthwhile to remember that the reason this change has occurred is that these mechanics were bugged. They weren't working as intended and the game has been balanced to close to 5 years around a bugged mechanic. Changing that was always going to massively upset the established apple cart. But at least now the game actually has full interaction between unit types. If CA create new units ALL their stats will mean something, and crazy animations aren't just a get out of jail free card for some units.

    Props to Duck and the other devs who bit the bullet and made the change as soon as they were able in one fell swoop, existing balance be damned. Imagine if this wasn't discovered or actioned until the end of game 3 life cycle, broken mechanics could have been locked in to the game for perpetuity. Whereas now there is more time and patches to tweak units to get the game to a satisfying balance of mobility/interaction.

    In my opinion, a big part of what keeps any multiplayer game fresh is changes to the meta and so I think this patch will lead to a lot of fun games and entertaining viewing. I can easily see nerfs to infantry and footlords being on the cards after this patch, but the game will still be in a much better spot overall.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    The shooting out of/into the forest thing seems like an okay change, so long as it only effects arrows. Artillery/grenades/etc should not benefit from this.
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 29,161
    Yeah, CA could have played it safe and just preserved the current meta, bugs and all. That they actually decided to risk this major upheaval deserves some kudos.

  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 5,819

    Yeah, CA could have played it safe and just preserved the current meta, bugs and all. That they actually decided to risk this major upheaval deserves some kudos.

    From the vid it looked like 85% actual flat resist which is bloody far from the old 5% vs the aggressive animations, and iirc it was vs a saurian so it indicates no significant scaling from the monster mass in question. Any foot lord vs saurian should not be above 50% imo, but they could have 85% vs a medusa that's fine. There's a lot of room here for a softer and more sensible and immersive implementation.
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 29,161

    Yeah, CA could have played it safe and just preserved the current meta, bugs and all. That they actually decided to risk this major upheaval deserves some kudos.

    From the vid it looked like 85% actual flat resist which is bloody far from the old 5% vs the aggressive animations, and iirc it was vs a saurian so it indicates no significant scaling from the monster mass in question. Any foot lord vs saurian should not be above 50% imo, but they could have 85% vs a medusa that's fine. There's a lot of room here for a softer and more sensible and immersive implementation.
    A few patches with monsters incapable of playing character bowling won't hurt.

  • hanenhanen Registered Users Posts: 512
    One good thing about the change to knockdown is that CA can finally nerf dawi mass.
  • TlaxtlanSoothsayerTlaxtlanSoothsayer Registered Users Posts: 2,710
    edited November 2020
    I like the title of this thread. Although it probably doesn't make a lot of sense. It's probably one of these bold predictions which make these forums entertaining to read from time to time.



    But at least it reminds me of this handsome fella:


  • WojmirVonCarsteinWojmirVonCarstein Registered Users Posts: 1,359
    If you look at a game like Starcraft II which has a much larger focus on the competitive environment, patches often shake the meta up quite a lot and certain key units get buffed or nerfed to the point where entire strategies could change from patch to patch.

    So like some others have said, Kudos to CA for not being afraid to change more than usual.
  • FrookFrook Registered Users Posts: 184
    Concerns about infantry boxing is unfounded, if infantry become strong enough there are plenty of counters against infantry that work particularly well against infantry, some of which were never used because it was never worthwhile to bring dedicated infantry counters.

    I don't think hero-blobbing will become a problem either, simply because this makes killing foot lords easier not harder.
  • RheingoldRheingold Registered Users Posts: 793
    Yes, finally. Took a crazy amount of time to fix, but maybe footlords and infantry might finally be useful.
  • AmonkhetAmonkhet Registered Users Posts: 3,981
    Frook said:

    Concerns about infantry boxing is unfounded, if infantry become strong enough there are plenty of counters against infantry that work particularly well against infantry, some of which were never used because it was never worthwhile to bring dedicated infantry counters.

    I don't think hero-blobbing will become a problem either, simply because this makes killing foot lords easier not harder.

    Some factions have counters yeah.
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 29,161
    edited November 2020
    Amonkhet said:

    Frook said:

    Concerns about infantry boxing is unfounded, if infantry become strong enough there are plenty of counters against infantry that work particularly well against infantry, some of which were never used because it was never worthwhile to bring dedicated infantry counters.

    I don't think hero-blobbing will become a problem either, simply because this makes killing foot lords easier not harder.

    Some factions have counters yeah.
    All of them do actually. Melee infantry has the most counters in this game.

  • AmonkhetAmonkhet Registered Users Posts: 3,981
    edited November 2020

    Amonkhet said:

    Frook said:

    Concerns about infantry boxing is unfounded, if infantry become strong enough there are plenty of counters against infantry that work particularly well against infantry, some of which were never used because it was never worthwhile to bring dedicated infantry counters.

    I don't think hero-blobbing will become a problem either, simply because this makes killing foot lords easier not harder.

    Some factions have counters yeah.
    All of them do actually. Melee infantry has the most counters in this game.
    Kinda, Kinda not. Where are we talking about on the map? When? Early-Mid-Late game? Versus who? As who? Lotta factors.
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 29,161
    Amonkhet said:

    Amonkhet said:

    Frook said:

    Concerns about infantry boxing is unfounded, if infantry become strong enough there are plenty of counters against infantry that work particularly well against infantry, some of which were never used because it was never worthwhile to bring dedicated infantry counters.

    I don't think hero-blobbing will become a problem either, simply because this makes killing foot lords easier not harder.

    Some factions have counters yeah.
    All of them do actually. Melee infantry has the most counters in this game.
    Kinda, Kinda not. Where are we talking about on the map? When? Early-Mid-Late game? Versus who? As who? Lotta factors.
    Ranged, magic, abilities, anti-infantry units...the list is endless. The only thing crossed off that list is monsters beating their own counters.

  • blindjonnblindjonn Registered Users Posts: 870

    In regards to the changes to knockdown immunity and bracing for infantry, all of the concerns about excessive boxing are completely warranted. This change seems almost guaranteed to buff box/camping strategies, no longer being able to knockover hero squads as easily or penetrate backlines will lead to a huge meta change and realistically not all for the better.

    I've said before that fixing the ease of abusing mass could lead to a ranged meta, so many extremely strong ranged units have been dripfed into the game and now it's easier than ever to get value from them. However, if we are extremely lucky, this will be addressed or even dealt with in playtesting. If we aren't lucky, it'll have to wait till the next patch cycle, but since there's a confirmed last Lord Pack on the way, that isn't such a terribly long time.
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 29,161
    edited November 2020
    Ranged units and all those snares, slows and rampage inducing stuff for sure need some looking at depending on how much better infantry becomes at dealing with monsters. That's the mortgage the game had to pay for the broken meta.

  • AmonkhetAmonkhet Registered Users Posts: 3,981

    Amonkhet said:

    Amonkhet said:

    Frook said:

    Concerns about infantry boxing is unfounded, if infantry become strong enough there are plenty of counters against infantry that work particularly well against infantry, some of which were never used because it was never worthwhile to bring dedicated infantry counters.

    I don't think hero-blobbing will become a problem either, simply because this makes killing foot lords easier not harder.

    Some factions have counters yeah.
    All of them do actually. Melee infantry has the most counters in this game.
    Kinda, Kinda not. Where are we talking about on the map? When? Early-Mid-Late game? Versus who? As who? Lotta factors.
    Ranged, magic, abilities, anti-infantry units...the list is endless. The only thing crossed off that list is monsters beating their own counters.
    Even in factions where the monsters were the counter?
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 7,084
    blindjonn said:

    In regards to the changes to knockdown immunity and bracing for infantry, all of the concerns about excessive boxing are completely warranted. This change seems almost guaranteed to buff box/camping strategies, no longer being able to knockover hero squads as easily or penetrate backlines will lead to a huge meta change and realistically not all for the better.

    I've said before that fixing the ease of abusing mass could lead to a ranged meta, so many extremely strong ranged units have been dripfed into the game and now it's easier than ever to get value from them. However, if we are extremely lucky, this will be addressed or even dealt with in playtesting. If we aren't lucky, it'll have to wait till the next patch cycle, but since there's a confirmed last Lord Pack on the way, that isn't such a terribly long time.
    what's easier than ever about ranged builds? ranged builds are wide - infantry being a little harder to pull through or one foot lord being unable to be gooned doesn't change much either way. The counter to ranged builds is going wide.

    nerfing coast on the other hand... sounds good to me.
  • JustSurpriseMeJustSurpriseMe Registered Users Posts: 35
    Amonkhet said:

    Amonkhet said:

    Amonkhet said:

    Frook said:

    Concerns about infantry boxing is unfounded, if infantry become strong enough there are plenty of counters against infantry that work particularly well against infantry, some of which were never used because it was never worthwhile to bring dedicated infantry counters.

    I don't think hero-blobbing will become a problem either, simply because this makes killing foot lords easier not harder.

    Some factions have counters yeah.
    All of them do actually. Melee infantry has the most counters in this game.
    Kinda, Kinda not. Where are we talking about on the map? When? Early-Mid-Late game? Versus who? As who? Lotta factors.
    Ranged, magic, abilities, anti-infantry units...the list is endless. The only thing crossed off that list is monsters beating their own counters.
    Even in factions where the monsters were the counter?
    Can you bring up a specific faction this applies to? I'm struggling to think of any that rely only on monsters to counter infantry.
  • AmonkhetAmonkhet Registered Users Posts: 3,981
    edited November 2020

    Amonkhet said:

    Amonkhet said:

    Amonkhet said:

    Frook said:

    Concerns about infantry boxing is unfounded, if infantry become strong enough there are plenty of counters against infantry that work particularly well against infantry, some of which were never used because it was never worthwhile to bring dedicated infantry counters.

    I don't think hero-blobbing will become a problem either, simply because this makes killing foot lords easier not harder.

    Some factions have counters yeah.
    All of them do actually. Melee infantry has the most counters in this game.
    Kinda, Kinda not. Where are we talking about on the map? When? Early-Mid-Late game? Versus who? As who? Lotta factors.
    Ranged, magic, abilities, anti-infantry units...the list is endless. The only thing crossed off that list is monsters beating their own counters.
    Even in factions where the monsters were the counter?
    Can you bring up a specific faction this applies to? I'm struggling to think of any that rely only on monsters to counter infantry.
    Tomb Kings. Ushabti, Warsphinx, Tomb Scorpion, etc.
  • blindjonnblindjonn Registered Users Posts: 870
    Amonkhet said:

    Amonkhet said:

    Amonkhet said:

    Amonkhet said:

    Frook said:

    Concerns about infantry boxing is unfounded, if infantry become strong enough there are plenty of counters against infantry that work particularly well against infantry, some of which were never used because it was never worthwhile to bring dedicated infantry counters.

    I don't think hero-blobbing will become a problem either, simply because this makes killing foot lords easier not harder.

    Some factions have counters yeah.
    All of them do actually. Melee infantry has the most counters in this game.
    Kinda, Kinda not. Where are we talking about on the map? When? Early-Mid-Late game? Versus who? As who? Lotta factors.
    Ranged, magic, abilities, anti-infantry units...the list is endless. The only thing crossed off that list is monsters beating their own counters.
    Even in factions where the monsters were the counter?
    Can you bring up a specific faction this applies to? I'm struggling to think of any that rely only on monsters to counter infantry.
    Tomb Kings. Ushabti, Warsphinx, Tomb Scorpion, etc.
    Kings also have chariots, artillery pieces and Nehekhara units.

  • blindjonnblindjonn Registered Users Posts: 870
    edited November 2020
    eumaies said:

    what's easier than ever about ranged builds?

    High mass units won't be able to dance through ranged units, or the infantry used to protect them, anymore. We won't know to what extent till the patch releases, but breaking through chaff to an archer line will be harder and pulling away from an archer unit to avoid a counter will be harder. Boxes and Defense-in-Depth will probably get a big boost from this change. Imagine if Skaven Slave Spears could actually hold up a SE chariot.
  • AmonkhetAmonkhet Registered Users Posts: 3,981
    blindjonn said:

    Amonkhet said:

    Amonkhet said:

    Amonkhet said:

    Amonkhet said:

    Frook said:

    Concerns about infantry boxing is unfounded, if infantry become strong enough there are plenty of counters against infantry that work particularly well against infantry, some of which were never used because it was never worthwhile to bring dedicated infantry counters.

    I don't think hero-blobbing will become a problem either, simply because this makes killing foot lords easier not harder.

    Some factions have counters yeah.
    All of them do actually. Melee infantry has the most counters in this game.
    Kinda, Kinda not. Where are we talking about on the map? When? Early-Mid-Late game? Versus who? As who? Lotta factors.
    Ranged, magic, abilities, anti-infantry units...the list is endless. The only thing crossed off that list is monsters beating their own counters.
    Even in factions where the monsters were the counter?
    Can you bring up a specific faction this applies to? I'm struggling to think of any that rely only on monsters to counter infantry.
    Tomb Kings. Ushabti, Warsphinx, Tomb Scorpion, etc.
    Kings also have chariots, artillery pieces and Nehekhara units.

    Chariots are pretty naff baring Settra's. Same with the frontline Skellies at the moment. Just good at tarpitting for the monsters.

    Artillery is good, though not sure I'm keen on a faction being balanced around countering infantry by having just two artillery pieces as counter.
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 29,161
    Amonkhet said:

    blindjonn said:

    Amonkhet said:

    Amonkhet said:

    Amonkhet said:

    Amonkhet said:

    Frook said:

    Concerns about infantry boxing is unfounded, if infantry become strong enough there are plenty of counters against infantry that work particularly well against infantry, some of which were never used because it was never worthwhile to bring dedicated infantry counters.

    I don't think hero-blobbing will become a problem either, simply because this makes killing foot lords easier not harder.

    Some factions have counters yeah.
    All of them do actually. Melee infantry has the most counters in this game.
    Kinda, Kinda not. Where are we talking about on the map? When? Early-Mid-Late game? Versus who? As who? Lotta factors.
    Ranged, magic, abilities, anti-infantry units...the list is endless. The only thing crossed off that list is monsters beating their own counters.
    Even in factions where the monsters were the counter?
    Can you bring up a specific faction this applies to? I'm struggling to think of any that rely only on monsters to counter infantry.
    Tomb Kings. Ushabti, Warsphinx, Tomb Scorpion, etc.
    Kings also have chariots, artillery pieces and Nehekhara units.

    Chariots are pretty naff baring Settra's. Same with the frontline Skellies at the moment. Just good at tarpitting for the monsters.

    Artillery is good, though not sure I'm keen on a faction being balanced around countering infantry by having just two artillery pieces as counter.
    You mean with one of them being one of the best artillery pieces in the game that also doesn't suffer from the downsides of regular artillery due to being an SE?

  • WojmirVonCarsteinWojmirVonCarstein Registered Users Posts: 1,359
    infantry getting a buff this patch indirectly means that things like Vcoast bombers get a buff too
  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 7,512


    There's nothing wrong with upsetting MP balance. Metas are meant to change with time and a big content update is supposed to upset the balance. People make new strategies, old ones get shelved: that's the nature of an ever changing multiplayer game.
    .

    infantry spam has 0 strategy though not looking forward to a meta of 2 line rushes clashing into each other.


    Besides, foot lords have been abject garbage for the entire life of this game. The fact that CA is finally doing something to rectify the situation is a good thing.

    yeah hard disagree on that, this is pretty much your opinion and a wrong one for that matter. Foot lords are extremely good in live patch and have no counters because they can punch as hard as Giants while having 1/50th the hitbox. They are also significantly cheaper, again I get that for some people infantry spam is the apex of gameplay because they like to drink tea and go to the toilet during the battle, for me and other people who like actual strategy it's incredibly boring.
    mightygloin_fan_1
  • AmonkhetAmonkhet Registered Users Posts: 3,981
    edited November 2020

    Amonkhet said:

    blindjonn said:

    Amonkhet said:

    Amonkhet said:

    Amonkhet said:

    Amonkhet said:

    Frook said:

    Concerns about infantry boxing is unfounded, if infantry become strong enough there are plenty of counters against infantry that work particularly well against infantry, some of which were never used because it was never worthwhile to bring dedicated infantry counters.

    I don't think hero-blobbing will become a problem either, simply because this makes killing foot lords easier not harder.

    Some factions have counters yeah.
    All of them do actually. Melee infantry has the most counters in this game.
    Kinda, Kinda not. Where are we talking about on the map? When? Early-Mid-Late game? Versus who? As who? Lotta factors.
    Ranged, magic, abilities, anti-infantry units...the list is endless. The only thing crossed off that list is monsters beating their own counters.
    Even in factions where the monsters were the counter?
    Can you bring up a specific faction this applies to? I'm struggling to think of any that rely only on monsters to counter infantry.
    Tomb Kings. Ushabti, Warsphinx, Tomb Scorpion, etc.
    Kings also have chariots, artillery pieces and Nehekhara units.

    Chariots are pretty naff baring Settra's. Same with the frontline Skellies at the moment. Just good at tarpitting for the monsters.

    Artillery is good, though not sure I'm keen on a faction being balanced around countering infantry by having just two artillery pieces as counter.
    You mean with one of them being one of the best artillery pieces in the game that also doesn't suffer from the downsides of regular artillery due to being an SE?
    No, more that taking one or two artillery pieces won't win you a battle against an infantry heavy army. This change in design will probably push Tomb Kings to focus more on Bows and Artillery to kill infantry when they were supposed to be side aspects.
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