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The Age Of High Mass Is Over - The Time of Infantry Has Begun

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  • blindjonnblindjonn Registered Users Posts: 870
    edited November 2020
    Amonkhet said:

    blindjonn said:

    Amonkhet said:

    Amonkhet said:

    Amonkhet said:

    Amonkhet said:

    Frook said:

    Concerns about infantry boxing is unfounded, if infantry become strong enough there are plenty of counters against infantry that work particularly well against infantry, some of which were never used because it was never worthwhile to bring dedicated infantry counters.

    I don't think hero-blobbing will become a problem either, simply because this makes killing foot lords easier not harder.

    Some factions have counters yeah.
    All of them do actually. Melee infantry has the most counters in this game.
    Kinda, Kinda not. Where are we talking about on the map? When? Early-Mid-Late game? Versus who? As who? Lotta factors.
    Ranged, magic, abilities, anti-infantry units...the list is endless. The only thing crossed off that list is monsters beating their own counters.
    Even in factions where the monsters were the counter?
    Can you bring up a specific faction this applies to? I'm struggling to think of any that rely only on monsters to counter infantry.
    Tomb Kings. Ushabti, Warsphinx, Tomb Scorpion, etc.
    Kings also have chariots, artillery pieces and Nehekhara units.

    Chariots are pretty naff baring Settra's. Same with the frontline Skellies at the moment. Just good at tarpitting for the monsters.
    The other chariots might not be overtly strong, but they do overtly counter infantry. Same applies to Nehekhara Warriors.

    infantry getting a buff this patch indirectly means that things like Vcoast bombers get a buff too

    Pretty sure bombers will be horrifically nerfed, even if their use-case improves.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 7,084
    Amonkhet said:

    Amonkhet said:

    Amonkhet said:

    Amonkhet said:

    Frook said:

    Concerns about infantry boxing is unfounded, if infantry become strong enough there are plenty of counters against infantry that work particularly well against infantry, some of which were never used because it was never worthwhile to bring dedicated infantry counters.

    I don't think hero-blobbing will become a problem either, simply because this makes killing foot lords easier not harder.

    Some factions have counters yeah.
    All of them do actually. Melee infantry has the most counters in this game.
    Kinda, Kinda not. Where are we talking about on the map? When? Early-Mid-Late game? Versus who? As who? Lotta factors.
    Ranged, magic, abilities, anti-infantry units...the list is endless. The only thing crossed off that list is monsters beating their own counters.
    Even in factions where the monsters were the counter?
    Can you bring up a specific faction this applies to? I'm struggling to think of any that rely only on monsters to counter infantry.
    Tomb Kings. Ushabti, Warsphinx, Tomb Scorpion, etc.
    Ushabti and scorpions don’t rely on pulling through to do their damage.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 7,084
    blindjonn said:

    eumaies said:

    what's easier than ever about ranged builds?

    High mass units won't be able to dance through ranged units, or the infantry used to protect them, anymore. We won't know to what extent till the patch releases, but breaking through chaff to an archer line will be harder and pulling away from an archer unit to avoid a counter will be harder. Boxes and Defense-in-Depth will probably get a big boost from this change. Imagine if Skaven Slave Spears could actually hold up a SE chariot.
    Lol yeah I don’t think archers or even braced chaff spears are going to be holding up chariots any time soon.

    I’ll be pleasantly surprised if a chariot charge into six rank deep heavy infantry takes a little longer to pull through and escape. I’m not expecting any fundamental change.



  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 10,245
    I think a good change overall, if it means some characters prove too good they can be balanced with cost later.....Gotrek im looking your way...
  • another505another505 Registered Users Posts: 2,759

    Amonkhet said:

    Amonkhet said:

    Amonkhet said:

    Frook said:

    Concerns about infantry boxing is unfounded, if infantry become strong enough there are plenty of counters against infantry that work particularly well against infantry, some of which were never used because it was never worthwhile to bring dedicated infantry counters.

    I don't think hero-blobbing will become a problem either, simply because this makes killing foot lords easier not harder.

    Some factions have counters yeah.
    All of them do actually. Melee infantry has the most counters in this game.
    Kinda, Kinda not. Where are we talking about on the map? When? Early-Mid-Late game? Versus who? As who? Lotta factors.
    Ranged, magic, abilities, anti-infantry units...the list is endless. The only thing crossed off that list is monsters beating their own counters.
    Even in factions where the monsters were the counter?
    Can you bring up a specific faction this applies to? I'm struggling to think of any that rely only on monsters to counter infantry.
    Bret, Norsca, BM. (Norscan and BM inf struggles against armored inf)

    they have some range, but not good enough when forest boxed.
  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 7,512

    I think a good change overall, if it means some characters prove too good they can be balanced with cost later.....Gotrek im looking your way...

    yeah looking forward to 6 months of foot character meta given how that's the pacing of patch drops.
    mightygloin_fan_1
  • WojmirVonCarsteinWojmirVonCarstein Registered Users Posts: 1,359
    foot characters still can be focused by missiles, can be kited and can be avoided.
  • blindjonnblindjonn Registered Users Posts: 870


    The specific fix is detailed here, for anyone who's interested.
  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 7,512
    edited November 2020

    foot characters still can be focused by missiles

    foot characters are about as resilient to missiles as it gets in this game. If you think missiles are a counter to foot characters, you probably think missiles are good vs any unit category in this game, silver shielded infantry, cavalry, artillery.

    can be kited

    unless you mean draw kiting which only some people in these forums routinely like to do, you gotta fight them eventually... too bad it looks like they will beat already-worn-down monsters, endless infantry (due to small hitbox and the characters forming a blob of 2-3 heroes to guard each other's flanks), knockback animations (each foot character knocks down pretty much a # of models equal to their splash max targets generally speaking), which means the only counter would seem to pick like 2 units of super elite infantry (Swordmasters, Chosen), which not all factions might even have available. Or you could pick a counter foot character squad (but that's the definition of broken when the counter to something is the same unit/class type).
    blindjonn said:



    The specific fix is detailed here, for anyone who's interested.

    toward the end of the video, dedicated combat lord for 2600g losing to 1400g foot lord who is a hybrid mage/combatant is just sad. CA really has 0 clue abut balancing it would seem. Awful patch catering to average players.
    mightygloin_fan_1
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 7,084
    I’ve always wanted to be an average player. I’ll keep working and maybe someday I’ll get there.
  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 7,512
    eumaies said:

    I’ve always wanted to be an average player. I’ll keep working and maybe someday I’ll get there.

    well looks like this will be your dream patch then. You can faceroll on the keyboard and still win. CA is making it as easy as possible to win for people who love minimalistic clicking policies and infantry spam.
    mightygloin_fan_1
  • blindjonnblindjonn Registered Users Posts: 870
    edited November 2020
    Green0 said:

    CA is making it as easy as possible to win for people who love minimalistic clicking policies and infantry spam.

    Christmas really is coming!
  • WojmirVonCarsteinWojmirVonCarstein Registered Users Posts: 1,359
    Green0 said:

    foot characters still can be focused by missiles

    foot characters are about as resilient to missiles as it gets in this game. If you think missiles are a counter to foot characters, you probably think missiles are good vs any unit category in this game, silver shielded infantry, cavalry, artillery.

    can be kited

    unless you mean draw kiting which only some people in these forums routinely like to do, you gotta fight them eventually... too bad it looks like they will beat already-worn-down monsters, endless infantry (due to small hitbox and the characters forming a blob of 2-3 heroes to guard each other's flanks), knockback animations (each foot character knocks down pretty much a # of models equal to their splash max targets generally speaking), which means the only counter would seem to pick like 2 units of super elite infantry (Swordmasters, Chosen), which not all factions might even have available. Or you could pick a counter foot character squad (but that's the definition of broken when the counter to something is the same unit/class type).
    blindjonn said:



    The specific fix is detailed here, for anyone who's interested.

    toward the end of the video, dedicated combat lord for 2600g losing to 1400g foot lord who is a hybrid mage/combatant is just sad. CA really has 0 clue abut balancing it would seem. Awful patch catering to average players.
    This actually proves how great this patch is! thanks for posting!
  • mightygloinmightygloin Karaz-a-KarakRegistered Users Posts: 3,818
    Green0 said:

    I think a good change overall, if it means some characters prove too good they can be balanced with cost later.....Gotrek im looking your way...

    yeah looking forward to 6 months of foot character meta given how that's the pacing of patch drops.
    S'all good mate, you could use a big pause anyway!
  • another505another505 Registered Users Posts: 2,759
    eumaies said:

    I’ve always wanted to be an average player. I’ll keep working and maybe someday I’ll get there.

    An average player can at least deal with foot lords and hero squads. Unlike someone here who cant even deal with gotrek
  • another505another505 Registered Users Posts: 2,759
    CA duck, you said you will take a look at cav characters getting stun too much too.

    Any changes or no? Plans for the future?
  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 7,512
    edited November 2020

    Green0 said:

    foot characters still can be focused by missiles

    foot characters are about as resilient to missiles as it gets in this game. If you think missiles are a counter to foot characters, you probably think missiles are good vs any unit category in this game, silver shielded infantry, cavalry, artillery.

    can be kited

    unless you mean draw kiting which only some people in these forums routinely like to do, you gotta fight them eventually... too bad it looks like they will beat already-worn-down monsters, endless infantry (due to small hitbox and the characters forming a blob of 2-3 heroes to guard each other's flanks), knockback animations (each foot character knocks down pretty much a # of models equal to their splash max targets generally speaking), which means the only counter would seem to pick like 2 units of super elite infantry (Swordmasters, Chosen), which not all factions might even have available. Or you could pick a counter foot character squad (but that's the definition of broken when the counter to something is the same unit/class type).
    blindjonn said:



    The specific fix is detailed here, for anyone who's interested.

    toward the end of the video, dedicated combat lord for 2600g losing to 1400g foot lord who is a hybrid mage/combatant is just sad. CA really has 0 clue abut balancing it would seem. Awful patch catering to average players.
    This actually proves how great this patch is! thanks for posting!
    yeah, looking forward to 2 average players line rushing each other and the outcome of the game being decided largely in army select and by the RNG of character duels. The better player wins.

    Like I said, it looks like in next patch, ANYONE could get top 1 in a tournament or do well on ladder, so I guess guys this is your big chance.
    mightygloin_fan_1
  • glosskilosglosskilos Registered Users Posts: 1,236

    Amonkhet said:

    Amonkhet said:

    Amonkhet said:

    Frook said:

    Concerns about infantry boxing is unfounded, if infantry become strong enough there are plenty of counters against infantry that work particularly well against infantry, some of which were never used because it was never worthwhile to bring dedicated infantry counters.

    I don't think hero-blobbing will become a problem either, simply because this makes killing foot lords easier not harder.

    Some factions have counters yeah.
    All of them do actually. Melee infantry has the most counters in this game.
    Kinda, Kinda not. Where are we talking about on the map? When? Early-Mid-Late game? Versus who? As who? Lotta factors.
    Ranged, magic, abilities, anti-infantry units...the list is endless. The only thing crossed off that list is monsters beating their own counters.
    Even in factions where the monsters were the counter?
    Can you bring up a specific faction this applies to? I'm struggling to think of any that rely only on monsters to counter infantry.
    Tomb kings, lizardmen, Norsca
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 10,245
    i dont know why people stress about it too much, im sure some foot chareters will be too good with it and those can get a cost nerf, others who were very bad on the other hand might be worth it now, if there is something to be concerned about it likely be foot hybrids, such as noctulius who was already very good pick and now has potential to be OP, but once again if thats the case just up some base cost of certain charecters in a hotfix. even if some overperfom i dont think it be super OP, the only really OP situation i have is in the match-ups where foot blob is OP already this will make it cancer but maybe thats good it will push CA to fix the silly blobs.
  • Totentanz777Totentanz777 Registered Users Posts: 280

    i dont know why people stress about it too much, im sure some foot chareters will be too good with it and those can get a cost nerf, others who were very bad on the other hand might be worth it now, if there is something to be concerned about it likely be foot hybrids, such as noctulius who was already very good pick and now has potential to be OP, but once again if thats the case just up some base cost of certain charecters in a hotfix. even if some overperfom i dont think it be super OP, the only really OP situation i have is in the match-ups where foot blob is OP already this will make it cancer but maybe thats good it will push CA to fix the silly blobs.

    Yea exactly. Seriously people, some of you are freaking out and the DLC isn't even out yet. No one is really gonna have a sense for how all these changes will impact the game until a few weeks after it drops. Take a deep breath, exhale, and be thankful that the stagger stun lock mechanic for foot lords will be gone soon.
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 5,819
    I am not freaking out but I have serious concerns that this shifts the meta towards defensive geometries, because they need less support to win the end game now. In general this is not very entertaining, especially not in the long run.

    There is also balance concerns, how will TK beat dawi this patch? I suspect they won't. Several factions with unfavorable mu into dawi might result in broken mu now. This can be fixed though, but a static meta or linerush meta could kill the game for me, both as player and spectator.
  • SarmatiannsSarmatianns Registered Users Posts: 4,577

    I like the title of this thread. Although it probably doesn't make a lot of sense. It's probably one of these bold predictions which make these forums entertaining to read from time to time.



    But at least it reminds me of this handsome fella:



    Remember - if the title is true, it means Sigvald is the best Chaos lord now.

    That's the only important thing.

    It's not about winning or losing, it's about how good you look during the battle.
  • AnalogAnalog Registered Users Posts: 276
    I think there's a lot of overplay on how strong infantry is about to get.

    Stronger absolutely.

    but i doubt they will be stopping chariots with sheer force of will alone.

    Also worth noting, there is a whole class of AP Anti Infantry units that almost NEVER see the light of day because of how easy it was to trivialise other infantry units with Monsters and to some extent, ranged fire.

    This patch is going to mean one needs to provide much more care in seeing your SEM's into favourable matchups and that they don't overstay their welcome in bad ones. Ya'know, just like every other unit in the game, no more special treatment.

    i don't understand how some have convinced themselves that this is a reduction in the skill required, instead of an increase.



    Infantry can be good now, just like everything else.
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 5,819
    Analog said:

    I think there's a lot of overplay on how strong infantry is about to get.

    Stronger absolutely.

    but i doubt they will be stopping chariots with sheer force of will alone.

    Also worth noting, there is a whole class of AP Anti Infantry units that almost NEVER see the light of day because of how easy it was to trivialise other infantry units with Monsters and to some extent, ranged fire.

    This patch is going to mean one needs to provide much more care in seeing your SEM's into favourable matchups and that they don't overstay their welcome in bad ones. Ya'know, just like every other unit in the game, no more special treatment.

    i don't understand how some have convinced themselves that this is a reduction in the skill required, instead of an increase.



    Infantry can be good now, just like everything else.

    What makes elite infantry risky now is not monsters though, you can protect them from melee without much effort. What you can't protect them from is artillery and spells, to some extent breaths.

    Already now the comp meta in some matchups is a small elite box camping terrain while a mobile force tries to abuse the opposite factions weakness to air or ranged. Such builds are very annoying, some would say toxic, and they certainly do not need to be more popular.

    Some tweaks of sems in this direction is fine but so far I have seen no reason as to why this is not an equally big nerf to cav, horse characters and chariots, who do not need nerfs. I fear making static slow play better, or even pure resist/durability boxes that outlast the opponent, like you can vs vc if black coaches, blood knights, dragon lord, Vargulf can't cycle charge you without being dragged down rather quickly. If mortis is the only threat it sounds unhealthy.
  • AnalogAnalog Registered Users Posts: 276

    Analog said:

    I think there's a lot of overplay on how strong infantry is about to get.

    Stronger absolutely.

    but i doubt they will be stopping chariots with sheer force of will alone.

    Also worth noting, there is a whole class of AP Anti Infantry units that almost NEVER see the light of day because of how easy it was to trivialise other infantry units with Monsters and to some extent, ranged fire.

    This patch is going to mean one needs to provide much more care in seeing your SEM's into favourable matchups and that they don't overstay their welcome in bad ones. Ya'know, just like every other unit in the game, no more special treatment.

    i don't understand how some have convinced themselves that this is a reduction in the skill required, instead of an increase.



    Infantry can be good now, just like everything else.

    What makes elite infantry risky now is not monsters though, you can protect them from melee without much effort. What you can't protect them from is artillery and spells, to some extent breaths.

    Already now the comp meta in some matchups is a small elite box camping terrain while a mobile force tries to abuse the opposite factions weakness to air or ranged. Such builds are very annoying, some would say toxic, and they certainly do not need to be more popular.

    Some tweaks of sems in this direction is fine but so far I have seen no reason as to why this is not an equally big nerf to cav, horse characters and chariots, who do not need nerfs. I fear making static slow play better, or even pure resist/durability boxes that outlast the opponent, like you can vs vc if black coaches, blood knights, dragon lord, Vargulf can't cycle charge you without being dragged down rather quickly. If mortis is the only threat it sounds unhealthy.
    Artillery spells and breaths, and like half a point for normal ranged fire,
    This is not a small list of vulnerabilities given that your investment can still be significant.

    Does this really make them more popular because of infantry being less vulnerable to SEM? I wouldn't have thought so.
    Especially given, that whatever the change, chariots and SEM's will likely still have some level of bunker busting. It just wont be as abusable.

    And if The halberds become so effective, is this not a means to shift meta?
    If everyone is stacking up on halberds, they will suffer on Infantry Vs Infantry heavies. Might be we see more of them as a less useless pick.

    Cav Chariots and Monsters will still gut unbraced infantry and especially non combat specialist infantry.
    They just cant face charge ANti-large specialists so easily.

    If cav/monster charges into infantry that's tough enough to do it some serious harm, and it cant escape and dies, is this the infantries fault? Or a failure of leveraging the inherent mobility and charging bonuses that such units can and should take advantage of.
    Face charging Halberds or any heavy infantry can be a fools errand, Those units are not cheap and can preform well.
    Should it not require some skill and effort to get value on a unit VS Infantry?
    Especially when it can take a disproportionate amount of effort to get value out of heavy infantry.


  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 5,819
    Are you aware of the meta in some mu where infantry box is a part of abusing the opponent and not the ones being abused?
  • AnalogAnalog Registered Users Posts: 276

    Are you aware of the meta in some mu where infantry box is a part of abusing the opponent and not the ones being abused?

    I'm aware that some factions struggle more than others against heavy infantry, but do not strictly lack tools for dealing with them. I cant think of a faction that doesn't at least have two ways/unit types that can deal with heavy infantry.


    I'm not talking about Boxes becoming meta by the way, that's not the case, or the end goal.

    The dream is making Infantry, particularly heavy infantry, a tad less garbage. Because to be perfectly clear. They are pretty bad atm.

    There is a huge difference, between making infantry OP on a whim, and fixing longstanding issues that have had unit types underperform for their intended role for no good reason.

    I don't see how this leads to boxes, most of the factions that can field Elite Halberds don't often have the means to establish superpowered artillery or Ranged power. Very rarely can they do both. And rarer again that such a box allows for a big budget.
  • RheingoldRheingold Registered Users Posts: 793
    Great changes. But people are freaking out as usual. Bear in mind that infantry and footlords can now deal damage, sure, but they also take damage. And from what I've seen, its not an insignificant amount. You can now actually kill a footlord really quickly if its focused down where previously it just wasn't worth it. Particularly if its surrounded. So I'm not sure what the fuss is about. Especially as the usual complainers just didn't want footlords to be able to do anything except roll around on the ground. Well, now they are actually useful but more vulnerable and still have their other weaknesses. Mobility, unable to choose engagements etc.
  • Godefroy_de_BouillonGodefroy_de_Bouillon Registered Users Posts: 2,583
    CA_Duck said:

    These changes are largely thanks to the feedback and testing from the Ungrim vs Stegadon thread. Some of the observations from that really highlighted where our collision mechanics and bracing/charge defense mechanics were breaking. So thanks to all who spent time testing stuff out. :)

    How about horse characters? They were affected by this too.
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 5,819
    To quote discord: if chariots are nerfed dwarves will skyrocket.

    Please ca thoroughly test this before release.

    This could very seriously buff vp, skv, we, dwf, he archer builds, TK boxes while nerfing liz and vc pretty hard. Also TK, nor, BM, chaos could suffer hard in some mu.

    I don't think it's unfounded to be worried about a shift from dynamic meta towards static meta, and that it will reduce the entertainment value of the game. Generally moving pixels > still pixels imo. I don't think the balance between play styles is in a bad spot right now, we see all play styles and all perform.
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