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The Age Of High Mass Is Over - The Time of Infantry Has Begun

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  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 7,084



    Just for perspective, this is a screenshot from a competitive game this patch DWF vs CHAOS featuring useless footlords and useless elite infantry. This is one kind of build that we are buffing this patch. Hyped? Worried? I am worried.

    I don't want to scream wolf but a healthy amount of realism doesn't hurt here. Be aware that this is what we are heading towards. It's great and all that we are moving away from some things that are unwanted too, but also keep in mind that what we see here is a 90% nerf to mass acting as a counter to hero squad while at the same time making disengaging harder. Not to mention how this may affect cavalry and chariot units.

    I sometimes
    Take
    That build
    Because
    Chariots
    Kill
    Other builds.

    Just wanted to check if you’ve internalized that yet. Chariots do not counter that build.
  • TennisgolfbollTennisgolfboll Registered Users Posts: 10,332
    edited November 2020
    Finally!!

    Been asking for having foot lords being able to stay on their feet for YEARS!!
    It needs to be pointed out that what people call "cheese" is just playing the game the way it actually exists not in some fictional way they think it is supposed to work.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 7,084
    Green0 said:

    eumaies said:

    I’m referring to tourney games Vs top opponents green of course.
    .

    ah yes the mysterious top opponents, never seen you break anything better than top 8 (don't take this as an insult there are good players around and not everyone devotes extensive time to tournaments), let alone be a regular, let alone seen you play HE regularly but somehow you make HE chariots work in matchups where they are objectively awful and not even veterans like Xiphos, Lotus, or mains like me, Disposable and so on use them... you know better of course... yeah...

    Green0 said:


    There is nothing lol about raising concerns about this. It will shake up the meta and it will feel fresh for a week or two but after that we are stuck with a new meta that may very well be worse than what we have today.

    If this patch goes live based on what we saw without further changes, it might very well kill this game for me for a while and I'm sure it will do for many other veterans, too.
    Wow give up so easily? That ain't no way a true dawi behaves lad. Do you know how many years Ungrim have waited just to be able to have the smallest chance against petty monsters he should be slaughtering left and right? Shame.
    this is not an issue since not all Dawi are stubborn and pick bad units into counters. Us innovators pick Thorgrim or Gromby, they are quite good and cost-effective even in live patch.
    eumaies said:

    Green any star dragon would first of all breathe on noctilus or another expensive immobile target which is where a lot of its cost comes from.

    Second it I’ll cycle charge noctilus from the rear while he’s tied up with other units.

    In other words yes he’s paying for mobility and is wasted on a static duel Vs an anti large character. Is that really no obvious to you?

    not sure if we are playing the same game, you can dodge breath attacks, secondly cycle charging is ineffective as when you turn your Dragon, Noctilus gets 3-4 free attacks in the rear so you suffer some 1000 dmg as you are disengaging, awful idea.

    But more to the point, a 1400g has no business beating a 2600g.
    Dude didn’t I just beat you in the most recent hw tourney or are you not the green one? If not I’ve never seen you in a tourney. I beat the mysterious green player and many others and got to the semifinals; sadly was unable to play due to family obligations, but that’s just one example of a recent tourney I managed to find time to play in. When I have time to play in them I regularly do well.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 7,084
    This here is a master class in rubbish. Not even worth refuting this weak sauce. But I agree we are not playing the same game if cycle charging doesn’t work for you.

    “not sure if we are playing the same game, you can dodge breath attacks, secondly cycle charging is ineffective as when you turn your Dragon, Noctilus gets 3-4 free attacks in the rear so you suffer some 1000 dmg as you are disengaging, awful idea.

    But more to the point, a 1400g has no business beating a 2600g.”
  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 7,512
    edited November 2020
    eumaies said:



    Just for perspective, this is a screenshot from a competitive game this patch DWF vs CHAOS featuring useless footlords and useless elite infantry. This is one kind of build that we are buffing this patch. Hyped? Worried? I am worried.

    I don't want to scream wolf but a healthy amount of realism doesn't hurt here. Be aware that this is what we are heading towards. It's great and all that we are moving away from some things that are unwanted too, but also keep in mind that what we see here is a 90% nerf to mass acting as a counter to hero squad while at the same time making disengaging harder. Not to mention how this may affect cavalry and chariot units.

    I sometimes
    Take
    That build
    Because
    Chariots
    Kill
    Other builds.

    Just wanted to check if you’ve internalized that yet. Chariots do not counter that build.
    lol the delusion in thinking

    a) that army is not abusive

    b) you HAVE TO play it, cuz chariots too strong REEE

    it's DW vs CH btw not DW vs HE, don't see DW having an issue with Chaos chariots at all.

    Not to mention that I don't know who could think this is engaging gameplay worthy of being meta and seen in tournaments, a door knob could pilot that Dwarf army.
    mightygloin_fan_1
  • Cadia101Cadia101 Registered Users Posts: 1,273
    edited November 2020
    CA_Duck said:

    These changes are largely thanks to the feedback and testing from the Ungrim vs Stegadon thread

    hanen said:

    eumaies said:

    You don't understand me, fixing the mechanics is golden good, but assigning the new working knockdown resist value to 85% is wreckless while simultaneously making it harder to disengage.

    This could turn out being a big fat bore after the first few weeks of freshness. Consider it.

    How about you consider that key foot characters like the fey are now all easier to goon.

    Or you know wait and see it’s all speculation at this point.
    How is she easier to goon in a blob tho? From what I understand the changes make it harder to get to her inside the blob and harder to get away from her blob.
    Fay blob is a hero blob, their is no problem running away from it, it won’t keep you stuck.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 7,084
    Green0 said:

    eumaies said:



    Just for perspective, this is a screenshot from a competitive game this patch DWF vs CHAOS featuring useless footlords and useless elite infantry. This is one kind of build that we are buffing this patch. Hyped? Worried? I am worried.

    I don't want to scream wolf but a healthy amount of realism doesn't hurt here. Be aware that this is what we are heading towards. It's great and all that we are moving away from some things that are unwanted too, but also keep in mind that what we see here is a 90% nerf to mass acting as a counter to hero squad while at the same time making disengaging harder. Not to mention how this may affect cavalry and chariot units.

    I sometimes
    Take
    That build
    Because
    Chariots
    Kill
    Other builds.

    Just wanted to check if you’ve internalized that yet. Chariots do not counter that build.
    lol the delusion in thinking

    a) that army is not abusive

    b) you HAVE TO play it, cuz chariots too strong REEE

    it's DW vs CH btw not DW vs HE, don't see DW having an issue with Chaos chariots at all.

    Not to mention that I don't know who could think this is engaging gameplay worthy of being meta and seen in tournaments, a door knob could pilot that Dwarf army.
    I obviously don’t have to play it. I’m merely incentivized to play it due to chariots. A change to chariots will only make that build less useful to me for beating chaos.

    As for abusing don’t be silly. Almost every faction will periodically attempt a box play. It’s just one of many tactics people regularly do. Has pros and cons, usually more cons than pros.

  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 7,084
    edited November 2020
    Anyway not to be derailed I’m trying to get across to disposable that the reason dwarfs sometimes take a anvil/thorgrim gotrek box is precisely because chariots are so strong versus infantry right now. You want your very limited slow counters to be in practical range of your whole army. Because infantry in isolation are prey right now.
  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 7,512
    eumaies said:

    Green0 said:

    eumaies said:



    Just for perspective, this is a screenshot from a competitive game this patch DWF vs CHAOS featuring useless footlords and useless elite infantry. This is one kind of build that we are buffing this patch. Hyped? Worried? I am worried.

    I don't want to scream wolf but a healthy amount of realism doesn't hurt here. Be aware that this is what we are heading towards. It's great and all that we are moving away from some things that are unwanted too, but also keep in mind that what we see here is a 90% nerf to mass acting as a counter to hero squad while at the same time making disengaging harder. Not to mention how this may affect cavalry and chariot units.

    I sometimes
    Take
    That build
    Because
    Chariots
    Kill
    Other builds.

    Just wanted to check if you’ve internalized that yet. Chariots do not counter that build.
    lol the delusion in thinking

    a) that army is not abusive

    b) you HAVE TO play it, cuz chariots too strong REEE

    it's DW vs CH btw not DW vs HE, don't see DW having an issue with Chaos chariots at all.

    Not to mention that I don't know who could think this is engaging gameplay worthy of being meta and seen in tournaments, a door knob could pilot that Dwarf army.
    I obviously don’t have to play it. I’m merely incentivized to play it due to chariots. A change to chariots will only make that build less useful to me for beating chaos.

    As for abusing don’t be silly. Almost every faction will periodically attempt a box play. It’s just one of many tactics people regularly do. Has pros and cons, usually more cons than pros.

    you can flip this argument and make a case for if Dwarves were fair to play against, people wouldn't resort to chariot abuse. Looking forward to picking Bolt Throwers, Swordmasters, Dragon Princes, Spearmen... oh wait, most of those are not actually viable vs Dwarves because you just get outgrinded.
    mightygloin_fan_1
  • mightygloinmightygloin Karaz-a-KarakRegistered Users Posts: 3,818
    eumaies said:

    Green any star dragon would first of all breathe on noctilus or another expensive immobile target which is where a lot of its cost comes from.

    Second it I’ll cycle charge noctilus from the rear while he’s tied up with other units.

    In other words yes he’s paying for mobility and is wasted on a static duel Vs an anti large character. Is that really no obvious to you?

    Besides if Noctilus misses the bracing, the dragon will do massive double attack on landing which will both land due to no knockdown/fly away. Combined with the breath it's not hard to delete half of Noctilus' HP in one oppurtunistic fell swoop. Woe to those that can't heal through that. Dudes like Queek with bad MD, no heal, no CD would melt in seconds.
  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 8,502

    Finally!!

    Been asking for having foot lords being able to stay on their feet for YEARS!!

    The greatest joy of this patch is actually not the changes. But the wailing death of those abusers, havent u heard, they r petitioning for a revert hahaha

    Once again, silverins dejavu, completely crushed. They really need to learn about balance or it will happen over and over and over again
    https://imgur.com/a/Cj4b9
    Top #3 Leaderboard on Warhammer Totalwar.
  • Totentanz777Totentanz777 Registered Users Posts: 280
    There is so much wild speculation in this thread on how chariots will be useless, every dwarf will box, foot lords will become the meta..

    Literally no one knows how all these changes will truly affect the meta. Like I said earlier, take a deep breath and wait for the release. Does anyone honestly believe that the current way foot lords work when facing a unit with high mass is great? They just get knocked over, never take damage, never can deal damage, and consequently take an eternity to kill. Are people seriously advocating for keeping this gameplay?
  • blindjonnblindjonn Registered Users Posts: 870

    Are people seriously advocating for keeping this gameplay?

    Players who get advantages from certain mechanics will fight to keep them. The exception is Yst, who aggressively criticises what he sees as OP but will still abuse the hell out of it in quickbattles, which I think is great.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 7,084
    Green0 said:

    eumaies said:

    Green0 said:

    eumaies said:



    Just for perspective, this is a screenshot from a competitive game this patch DWF vs CHAOS featuring useless footlords and useless elite infantry. This is one kind of build that we are buffing this patch. Hyped? Worried? I am worried.

    I don't want to scream wolf but a healthy amount of realism doesn't hurt here. Be aware that this is what we are heading towards. It's great and all that we are moving away from some things that are unwanted too, but also keep in mind that what we see here is a 90% nerf to mass acting as a counter to hero squad while at the same time making disengaging harder. Not to mention how this may affect cavalry and chariot units.

    I sometimes
    Take
    That build
    Because
    Chariots
    Kill
    Other builds.

    Just wanted to check if you’ve internalized that yet. Chariots do not counter that build.
    lol the delusion in thinking

    a) that army is not abusive

    b) you HAVE TO play it, cuz chariots too strong REEE

    it's DW vs CH btw not DW vs HE, don't see DW having an issue with Chaos chariots at all.

    Not to mention that I don't know who could think this is engaging gameplay worthy of being meta and seen in tournaments, a door knob could pilot that Dwarf army.
    I obviously don’t have to play it. I’m merely incentivized to play it due to chariots. A change to chariots will only make that build less useful to me for beating chaos.

    As for abusing don’t be silly. Almost every faction will periodically attempt a box play. It’s just one of many tactics people regularly do. Has pros and cons, usually more cons than pros.

    you can flip this argument and make a case for if Dwarves were fair to play against, people wouldn't resort to chariot abuse. Looking forward to picking Bolt Throwers, Swordmasters, Dragon Princes, Spearmen... oh wait, most of those are not actually viable vs Dwarves because you just get outgrinded.
    sorry i may have missed it did you respond to my questions about your tourney name?

    and no that argument makes no sense. If something is strong people will use it. They don't "resort" to anything, they simply use the best tool in the toolkit. if they improved chariot interactions slightly of course that's not a bad thing - interacting more reasonably with other units is a good thing.
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 5,819
    eumaies said:

    Anyway not to be derailed I’m trying to get across to disposable that the reason dwarfs sometimes take a anvil/thorgrim gotrek box is precisely because chariots are so strong versus infantry right now. You want your very limited slow counters to be in practical range of your whole army. Because infantry in isolation are prey right now.

    So you bring Ellie infantry box because chariots are so strong vs infantry? That's not the way I see it, I see it as something that enables you to use as much ammo as possible of your gyros and then bomb infantry engaging your box. That's not the point though, neither is the point how often you use this build.

    The point is that this is just an example of that elite infantry hero squad is already a part of the meta rotation and this type of build is undeniably being buffed double up. Competitive builds that get buffs are expected to become more common. There are many examples, this is just one.
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 5,819
    blindjonn said:

    Are people seriously advocating for keeping this gameplay?

    Players who get advantages from certain mechanics will fight to keep them. The exception is Yst, who aggressively criticises what he sees as OP but will still abuse the hell out of it in quickbattles, which I think is great.
    Oh you have faith, did you miss him defending skink chief abuse?
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 7,084
    edited November 2020

    eumaies said:

    Anyway not to be derailed I’m trying to get across to disposable that the reason dwarfs sometimes take a anvil/thorgrim gotrek box is precisely because chariots are so strong versus infantry right now. You want your very limited slow counters to be in practical range of your whole army. Because infantry in isolation are prey right now.

    So you bring Ellie infantry box because chariots are so strong vs infantry? That's not the way I see it, I see it as something that enables you to use as much ammo as possible of your gyros and then bomb infantry engaging your box. That's not the point though, neither is the point how often you use this build.

    The point is that this is just an example of that elite infantry hero squad is already a part of the meta rotation and this type of build is undeniably being buffed double up. Competitive builds that get buffs are expected to become more common. There are many examples, this is just one.
    "You keep using that word, i do not think it means what you think it means."

    It is not "undeniable" that they are being buffed up. We've repeatedly pointed out to you there are pros and cons to this change, specifically for elite hero squads. We in the process of denying each other here so we'll just have to see on that one.

    As for my build, since you apparently have never played such a build, perhaps you should defer to me as to how and why I designed it and sometimes use it? The intuition is that elite infantry are indeed terrible vs any chariot faction, UNLESS you keep them in a really tight blob and right next to heroes who can back them up with mass.

    In other words, in my expert experience as the designer of that build, the whole reason I use elite infantry in tiny boxes as dwarfs is because they are not currently viable outside of tiny boxes. I hope that makes some sense to you.

    Separately, the elite infantry are a counterpick to chaff infantry, so that's part of the benefit. But the reason they're being taken in a box is because they are not very viable outside of a box. If they did something to change that, you will see less boxes. Because while boxes have some advantages, they also have real liabilities and are a gamble. I would much rather be using elite infantry in a way that is less static and able to adapt to more situations better.
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 5,819

    There is so much wild speculation in this thread on how chariots will be useless, every dwarf will box, foot lords will become the meta..

    Literally no one knows how all these changes will truly affect the meta. Like I said earlier, take a deep breath and wait for the release. Does anyone honestly believe that the current way foot lords work when facing a unit with high mass is great? They just get knocked over, never take damage, never can deal damage, and consequently take an eternity to kill. Are people seriously advocating for keeping this gameplay?

    That's not really it though, we are voicing a big concern because this is a big kneejerk change of 90% knockdown reduction plus synergistic change to unit mass, and we would like to at least see some effort from ca to balance this out or thoroughly play test it before rolling it out. It's a huuuge gamble and you don't need a PhD to predict which direction this will take. Only question is how far and that really should be acknowledged, tested and attempted to get right from the start.
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 5,819
    eumaies said:

    eumaies said:

    Anyway not to be derailed I’m trying to get across to disposable that the reason dwarfs sometimes take a anvil/thorgrim gotrek box is precisely because chariots are so strong versus infantry right now. You want your very limited slow counters to be in practical range of your whole army. Because infantry in isolation are prey right now.

    So you bring Ellie infantry box because chariots are so strong vs infantry? That's not the way I see it, I see it as something that enables you to use as much ammo as possible of your gyros and then bomb infantry engaging your box. That's not the point though, neither is the point how often you use this build.

    The point is that this is just an example of that elite infantry hero squad is already a part of the meta rotation and this type of build is undeniably being buffed double up. Competitive builds that get buffs are expected to become more common. There are many examples, this is just one.
    "You keep using that word, i do not think it means what you think it means."

    It is not "undeniable" that they are being buffed up. We've repeatedly pointed out to you there are pros and cons to this change, specifically for elite hero squads. We in the process of denying each other here so we'll just have to see on that one.

    As for my build, since you apparently have never played such a build, perhaps you should defer to me as to how and why I designed it and sometimes use it? The intuition is that elite infantry are indeed terrible vs any chariot faction, UNLESS you keep them in a really tight blob and right next to heroes who can back them up with mass.

    In other words, in my expert experience as the designer of that build, the whole reason I use elite infantry in tiny boxes as dwarfs is because they are not currently viable outside of tiny boxes. I hope that makes some sense to you.

    Separately, the elite infantry are a counterpick to chaff infantry, so that's part of the benefit. But the reason they're being taken in a box is because they are not very viable outside of a box. If they did something to change that, you will see less boxes. Because while boxes have some advantages, they also have real liabilities and are a gamble. I would much rather be using elite infantry in a way that is less static and able to adapt to more situations better.
    Lol do you think you are the only one who play such builds? That's a very eumaiescentric world view!

    Many factions have varieties and they are competitive already. Obviously they get buffed, don't be a fool. Foot mages are likely nerfed depending on their resistance value, but foot blob is buffed.
  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 7,512

    eumaies said:

    Green any star dragon would first of all breathe on noctilus or another expensive immobile target which is where a lot of its cost comes from.

    Second it I’ll cycle charge noctilus from the rear while he’s tied up with other units.

    In other words yes he’s paying for mobility and is wasted on a static duel Vs an anti large character. Is that really no obvious to you?

    Besides if Noctilus misses the bracing, the dragon will do massive double attack on landing which will both land due to no knockdown/fly away. Combined with the breath it's not hard to delete half of Noctilus' HP in one oppurtunistic fell swoop. Woe to those that can't heal through that. Dudes like Queek with bad MD, no heal, no CD would melt in seconds.
    how long have you not played this game lad? Double attack bug got fixed ages ago.
    eumaies said:

    Green0 said:

    eumaies said:

    Green0 said:

    eumaies said:



    Just for perspective, this is a screenshot from a competitive game this patch DWF vs CHAOS featuring useless footlords and useless elite infantry. This is one kind of build that we are buffing this patch. Hyped? Worried? I am worried.

    I don't want to scream wolf but a healthy amount of realism doesn't hurt here. Be aware that this is what we are heading towards. It's great and all that we are moving away from some things that are unwanted too, but also keep in mind that what we see here is a 90% nerf to mass acting as a counter to hero squad while at the same time making disengaging harder. Not to mention how this may affect cavalry and chariot units.

    I sometimes
    Take
    That build
    Because
    Chariots
    Kill
    Other builds.

    Just wanted to check if you’ve internalized that yet. Chariots do not counter that build.
    lol the delusion in thinking

    a) that army is not abusive

    b) you HAVE TO play it, cuz chariots too strong REEE

    it's DW vs CH btw not DW vs HE, don't see DW having an issue with Chaos chariots at all.

    Not to mention that I don't know who could think this is engaging gameplay worthy of being meta and seen in tournaments, a door knob could pilot that Dwarf army.
    I obviously don’t have to play it. I’m merely incentivized to play it due to chariots. A change to chariots will only make that build less useful to me for beating chaos.

    As for abusing don’t be silly. Almost every faction will periodically attempt a box play. It’s just one of many tactics people regularly do. Has pros and cons, usually more cons than pros.

    you can flip this argument and make a case for if Dwarves were fair to play against, people wouldn't resort to chariot abuse. Looking forward to picking Bolt Throwers, Swordmasters, Dragon Princes, Spearmen... oh wait, most of those are not actually viable vs Dwarves because you just get outgrinded.
    sorry i may have missed it did you respond to my questions about your tourney name?

    and no that argument makes no sense. If something is strong people will use it. They don't "resort" to anything, they simply use the best tool in the toolkit. if they improved chariot interactions slightly of course that's not a bad thing - interacting more reasonably with other units is a good thing.
    anyway the take home part is that chariots are bad vs empire, if you managed to pull them out and win most likely it was bad EMP player.
    mightygloin_fan_1
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 7,084
    Lol x2

    Disposable I was merely doing you the courtesy of assuming you had no experience with such nasty nasty tactics.
  • another505another505 Registered Users Posts: 2,759
    edited November 2020
    How about we all shut up


    and just wait




    (im just happy that cav characters might shine better now)
  • mightygloinmightygloin Karaz-a-KarakRegistered Users Posts: 3,818
    edited November 2020
    Green0 said:



    how long have you not played this game lad? Double attack bug got fixed ages ago.

    It's not a bug lmao, it's also called leap attack or whatever which happens instantly after the first attack after charge landing. Pay more attention before pulling out the gun laddie. Save your bullet for the pointy ears.

    Here below an unknockable runelord on anvil example; the massive damage he took happens only in the 1st sec of the dragon landing (note the 300 or so damage breath attack prior to landing and 25% physical res). Feel free to make the same test yourself and get educated.



    There is so much wild speculation in this thread on how chariots will be useless, every dwarf will box, foot lords will become the meta..

    Literally no one knows how all these changes will truly affect the meta. Like I said earlier, take a deep breath and wait for the release. Does anyone honestly believe that the current way foot lords work when facing a unit with high mass is great? They just get knocked over, never take damage, never can deal damage, and consequently take an eternity to kill. Are people seriously advocating for keeping this gameplay?

    this is a big kneejerk change of 90% knockdown reduction plus synergistic change to unit mass, and we would like to at least see some effort from ca to balance this out or thoroughly play test it before rolling it out. It's a huuuge gamble and you don't need a PhD to predict which direction this will take.
    That's a big assumption and a bit disrespectful don't you think? "some effort plz" "playtest plz" This patch has been in development like what, 7 months? And the issue is pretty ancient. Have some faith.



  • WojmirVonCarsteinWojmirVonCarstein Registered Users Posts: 1,359
    Green0 said:

    Green0 said:

    foot characters still can be focused by missiles

    foot characters are about as resilient to missiles as it gets in this game. If you think missiles are a counter to foot characters, you probably think missiles are good vs any unit category in this game, silver shielded infantry, cavalry, artillery.

    can be kited

    unless you mean draw kiting which only some people in these forums routinely like to do, you gotta fight them eventually... too bad it looks like they will beat already-worn-down monsters, endless infantry (due to small hitbox and the characters forming a blob of 2-3 heroes to guard each other's flanks), knockback animations (each foot character knocks down pretty much a # of models equal to their splash max targets generally speaking), which means the only counter would seem to pick like 2 units of super elite infantry (Swordmasters, Chosen), which not all factions might even have available. Or you could pick a counter foot character squad (but that's the definition of broken when the counter to something is the same unit/class type).
    blindjonn said:



    The specific fix is detailed here, for anyone who's interested.

    toward the end of the video, dedicated combat lord for 2600g losing to 1400g foot lord who is a hybrid mage/combatant is just sad. CA really has 0 clue abut balancing it would seem. Awful patch catering to average players.
    This actually proves how great this patch is! thanks for posting!
    yeah, looking forward to 2 average players line rushing each other and the outcome of the game being decided largely in army select and by the RNG of character duels. The better player wins.

    Like I said, it looks like in next patch, ANYONE could get top 1 in a tournament or do well on ladder, so I guess guys this is your big chance.
    Finally I will have a chance in a tournament
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 29,161
    Gatekeeping is not a valid justification to leave a bug unfixed.

    Gatekeeping is in fact a very poor excuse to balance a game around.

  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 5,819
    Nobody ever said don't take control over the knockdown probability, what I say is maybe going from effective 95% knockdown vulnerability to 15% vulnerability in one big leap without any attempt at evaluating how this affects competitive play or apply any form of counterbalancing is pretty insane. If you then add that the same patch simultaneously makes it harder to disengage from infantry and buff midtuke units camping forests.... Then it's a really wreckless launch. I would never have dared.
  • AmonkhetAmonkhet Registered Users Posts: 3,980
    Hopefully they've taking a balance pass, even a quick one, at factions this bugfix heavily affects.
  • AnalogAnalog Registered Users Posts: 276
    Wild that one of the arguments here is that this change isn't realistic.

    Magic isn't realistic
    Seeing your own death as a vision from your creator god and being forced to permanent silence isn't realistic
    etc

    That agreement cuts both ways because nothing in the game is realistic relative to real life.
    But yeah, halberds having a chance on chariots is crossing the delicate line of realism,

    eumaies is right about the Box. Boxes are chancy things and will only work into the right kind of matchups, BUT is almost mandated when facing certain others, for which their high mass units can demolish charge defence units and run you down at every turn. I can not believe that it would be intended gameplay that Charge defence units have their formation and ability to fight back so impaired by the mass of what hits them, ESPECIALLY when charge defence is highly directional and often flimsy atm.

    I think disposable, that some of your argument ( And correct me if I'm wrong) is that cahriots are an important tool for cracking boxes and similar tight formations, and that with this change they will not be as effective. This is a fiar concern but the problem is that right now Chariots crack Everything. The time for some adjustment is long due

    Also yeah, the balance is going to shake up a bit but i would posit that most of the big changes are hitting Archetypes that are atm woefully uncompetitive.
    Foot lords and heavy infantry?
    Almost always a joke.
    Will this change the meta?
    you bet.
    Will it make two unit types that probably have the most counters in the entire game suddenly game breaking?
    I very much doubt it

    You might have to actually think about your opponents heavy infantry options now, and consider some of your own a little more. Both in the build screen and on the field. Just like with any other unit.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 10,245
    edited November 2020
    Ill give the advice i was given during the fungi and vindictive glare thread, If chariots kill dwarf melee infantry just dont take any Melee infantry...

    Dwarf chariot problem is way overblown, in saying that i like the mass etc changes and dont worry much about them, only worried about Gotrek and Nuctolius really maybe some other lords also.
  • Lord_DistamorfinLord_Distamorfin Registered Users Posts: 1,250
    Why is nobody calling this what this actually is? It's not a buff or a nerf or a balance overhaul: it's a bug fix. The fact that the game has been balanced around a bug that completely breaks the ability of foot lords to brace against charges for nearly 4 years is not something to defend. That this bug is finally being addressed and the mechanic will function as intended is a universally good thing. The fact that anybody is actually opposed to this fix honestly astounds me.

    Metas change. Find new strategies and deal with it.
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