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The Age Of High Mass Is Over - The Time of Infantry Has Begun

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  • PocmanPocman Registered Users Posts: 4,114
    edited November 2020
    I do think this fix is great.


    I also think, that until next patch the game is going to be a snoozefest were only infantry is used, barely any monster is viable, etc. Add to that the "fire from the forest" mechanic and this patch is going to be, almost for sure, bad.

    However, is clearly a change for the better. One that is going, once things stabilize, do marvels to internal balance.

    For example, we have seen lots of concerns about heroblobs. Well, most factions did have tools to counter those. But right now, those tools are so useless against anything else and so underpowered in general, than no one in their right mind would use them.

    Now we may see people actually using things like the lore master, anti inf LLs like Hellebron, elite infantry...
    Post edited by Pocman on
  • saweendrasaweendra Registered Users Posts: 9,692

    blindjonn said:

    Morghur is probably going to be terrible now

    I would say adequately shielding such characters has now become important and since infantry now actually has a chance of keeping high mass units from just barreling through, screening with infantry is now an option.
    Morghur is difficult to shield due to the poor morale of most other Beastmen units, he consistently gets isolated and can currently weather the storm till he is reinforced. If he does suddenly start taking tons of damage after this patch, his Spawns still make him great value and he's got Foe-Seeker to put him in safer spots. More lord variety for Beastmen is a good thing, but I'd rather the other lords get buffed rather than Morghur nerfed. Fortunately, the Gorebull should be incredible now, I think it'll be a net gain.
    tbf, one of the biggest bm weakness is big armored monsters so this should also be a meta buff for bm
    Won't gore bulls stop flying now so they could technically be better at killing sem .

    But they need dlc imo.
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc
  • Otters007Otters007 Registered Users Posts: 1,167
    I'm hoping these changes will make Vlad more viable. @CA_Duck did Vlad get any changes aswell? He's been needing more AP and another lick of paint for ages.
  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 8,502
    edited November 2020



    tbf, one of the biggest bm weakness is big armored monsters so this should also be a meta buff for bm

    Won't gore bulls stop flying now so they could technically be better at killing sem .

    But they need dlc imo.

    Glad they fix that damn bug

    Gonna miss my flybull that flies 30m getting countercharged by slann LOLLLL
    Post edited by yst on
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  • mightygloinmightygloin Karaz-a-KarakRegistered Users Posts: 3,818
    the factions that will struggle are the ones with worse stats on chars


    This is totally normal and expected though. Will probably be addressed in future. Now the likes of Queek with 42 amazing MD will be super easy to goon without magical ilvulnerability periods. Maybe he will incrementally get +15 MD in the next 4 years like how Ungrim came to 50 from 35 :D
  • SarmatiannsSarmatianns Registered Users Posts: 4,577
    Pocman said:

    Indo think this fix is great.


    I also think, that until next patch the game is going to be a snoozefest were only infantry is used, barely any monster is viable,

    I can state with almost absolute certainty that this won't happen.

    I have my doubts that this bug fix will be as impactful as people think it will.

    Shooting from the forest can potentially have a huge impact and encourage forest camping with any shooty faction, especially if they have gunpowder weapons.
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 5,819
    Yea I don't think we'll magically turn this into infantry spam (most likely I hope) but there is a real risk that the wincon for foot lord blob is much easier to establish because in the current build you only need like a 20% HP stegadon to counter the hero blob in the late game, but after this change you might need two healthy stegadons to do the same. I am not saying this is the way it should be, but it is the way it is. Importantly, already under these conditions this is a competitive way to play some matchups. Especially Fey-trek-adin, but also other squads. Even solo Gotrek is picked as anti large option in some matchups, in some builds by good players.

    Now, there is not anything fundamentally wrong with tuning down the strength of mass countering not-mass, but what you should question here is the scope of this change in a single leap, and the lack of high level play testing before going live with such a big change. From the looks of it we go from effective 5% resistance to knockdown directly up to 85% plus changes to single entity bracing plus changes to infantry stickyness (which might be minor but it still adds up to the uncertainty), and not to mention the forest camping mechanics.

    These changes together puts food lord stats into play vs monsters while previously they would not matter near as much due to the impact damage, stun-lock and continiously renewed CB. So suddenly we will now have plenty of tiny hitbox, near un-puntable, 110-120 armor, 55-60 MD chars with good ws/ap, some unbreakable, ITP, regen, healproc etc, some with pretty huge self buffs, no penalty for forest camping :smile:. All of these cost like 1200-1400 gold or so, but do in theory potentially fill the same role in a build that a Hierotitan does for 2000 gold but with a tiny hitbox and better stats for 600-800 less gold. There are some drawbacks too for sure like less vivid animations, no bound spells, less HP etc, but they are both tanky and slow, and we could potentially be faced with many characters being quite severely undercosted, like 200+ gold I could imagine in practice (in defensive builds or slow push builds where speed is not as important), which will again put the mount cost in a really weird spot. If they did the same change to hit reaction resistance, which we can assume I hope, we could end up with also cav-mounted characters like horses, pegs, hellsteeds etc getting a big buff from this in effective performance too.

    The point is that you can "fix this bug" without blindly assigning the full old value of 85% knockdown resistance to the most resilient, unbreakable foot chars. This 85% value was buffed from 75% for example entirely based on that the old 75% value resulting in an effective <5% was too low. <b class="Bold">There is absolutely no reason why an effective 75% would be too low. This is just the direct effect of the game being balanced based on a different knockdown mechanics. It's not justification for that 85% is the "correct" value, it's actually justification for that 85% is the wrong value. I think there should be a discussion about that the proper value is tbh. I have suggested before that I think the appropriate value should be very different depending on which character and which monster are interacting. I'll copy paste it here again:

    Slayer lord vs Medusa.............10% base chance of knockdown
    Slayer lord vs Vargulf...............20%
    Slayer lord vs Stegadon...........40%
    Slayer lord vs Dread saurian....60%

    Foot lord vs Medusa...........20%
    Foot lord vs Vargulf.............40%
    Foot lord vs Stegadon.........60%
    Foot lord vs Dread saurian..80%

    Foot mage vs Medusa..........40%
    Foot mage vs Vargulf............60%
    Foot mage vs Stegadon........80%
    Foot mage vs Dread saurian.90%

    Something along these lines would feel much more reasonable, it would also make foot mages less susceptible to gooning while letting melee chars fight more. They said there was some effect of mass into this in the video but from the looks of it I have to say it looked very much like it was effectively very high as ungrim took like 10 hits in a row without falling and grimgor got knocked over on hit nr 13 or so. Maybe it only considers the mass of the character and ignore the monster mass? To me it doesn't feel right that a dread saurian gets resisted 9 out of 10 times by any foot character. Not a dread saurian! Helping foot melee chars is fine because nobody enjoys stunlock in any game, but making momentum largely irrelevant is pushing way too far to the other side of the sweet spot imo. I think momentum should matter and be part of rock-scissor-paper relations between units.

    There's just so many unknowns here that this feels pretty wrecklessly but with good intentions thrown into the deep end of the pool and hope for the best. It had made a lot of sense to test this in a beta build and try to meet this change balancewise with adjustments to cost/md based on both tests and predictions in order to get a better starting point for further balancing. I get that people are eager but it makes no sense to me to deliberately launch this in it's crudest form and live with imbalances that you could easily mitigate with a more responsible rollout. Sure we will get a hotfix, but the prospect of a single hotfix landing this in a good balanced state is kind of optimistic, especially since the hotfix will also be clouded by 2 potentially bugged and imbalanced dlcs.
  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 8,502
    edited November 2020
    ^ yea its pretty epic level of fail for ppl to actually believe a 3k hp character = 9.5k hp titan

    Not sure where to begin but it sure is hilarious comparing a foot captain to a monster slot titan

    I do agree with the underpriced point tho, units like tyrion prolly need +$400 with that level of stats
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  • MitechMitech Registered Users Posts: 32
    yst said:

    ^ yea its pretty epic level of fail for ppl to actually believe a 3k hp character = 9.5k hp titan

    Not sure where to begin but it sure is hilarious comparing a foot captain to a monster slot titan

    I do agree with the underpriced point tho, units like tyrion prolly need +$400 with that level of stats

    Agree its hilarious.
    We had this bug for so long that some seem to think it had to do with Balance.

    Some footlords will get buffs and some will get nerfs, but i expect Tyrion and Archaon to be 2 of the biggest winners this patch.
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 5,819
    yst said:

    ^ yea its pretty epic level of fail for ppl to actually believe a 3k hp character = 9.5k hp titan

    Not sure where to begin but it sure is hilarious comparing a foot captain to a monster slot titan

    I do agree with the underpriced point tho, units like tyrion prolly need +$400 with that level of stats

    As epic fail as to not factor in the other things like not being vulnerable to ranged fire or artillery, or having better stats. If you remove knockdowns and duel foot Archaon vs Hierotitan I would expect a rather even fight due to stats, and archaon costs 1450 gold of which 100 is mage tax, and can't effectively be targetted or hit by artillery/ranged. If you duel foot Tyrion vs Hierotitan with todays patch he wins very clearly even though he is knocked down like 20 times, but he has 40% fire resist but still he wins very clearly low hp vs high hp. Stats will matter much more, and foot Tyrion will be very hard to kill after patch. Maybe you'll agree on Tyrion, he's an elf.
  • DaBoyzAreBackInTownDaBoyzAreBackInTown Registered Users Posts: 325
    Artillery shooting out of the trees is much more concerning in a balance sense than the knockback change. Would be 100% comfortable prior to seeing any other evidence beyond the Indypride video that it should be removed as an effect from artillery. Imo it should only apply to units that have woodsmen/strider and maybe tweak the value down a little. Definitely not to any form of artillery or magic.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    @Disposable Hero End of the day it has taken 5 years to get to this point, no point in delaying any further. How much more cautious and incremental a rollout can there be? Maybe do it slowly over another ten years? Making the change and letting the cards fall where they may is the best way forward, especially because all factions have footlords who will benefit substantially from this. Sure it will be a massive meta shift but when you've got 5 years of balancing that has evolved around a meta that is now gone for good, you need new data and lots of it ASAP in order to get the game back to a comfortable point of unit interaction. Doing it slowly and piecemeal would cause more harm than good.

    The varying chance for knockdown based on different sized monsters doesn't really make much sense either. If I use myself as an example, it makes no difference if I'm hit by a car, a bus, or a plane, I'm going down and going down hard. All a system like that would do is add a lot of unneeded complexity and hidden stats, and lead to the same frustrating situation of the last 5 years where anti-large specialist Orion can't fight a feral manticore reliably. Attempting to apply realism in this one scenario has virtually no upsides, it would be like applying realism to cavalry so that they can't move like a school of fish and turn on a dime from a full charge without breaking their ankles. Would it be more realistic, yes, would it be more fun to play with cavalry, no.

    The way to balance this is the same way everything else in this game is balanced; stats changes and cost.
  • PippingtonPippington Registered Users Posts: 2,172
    edited November 2020

    Helping foot melee chars is fine because nobody enjoys stunlock in any game, but making momentum largely irrelevant is pushing way too far to the other side of the sweet spot imo. I think momentum should matter and be part of rock-scissor-paper relations between units.

    Momentum will still have huge tactical significance. The high-mass, high-speed monster is still the unit in this asymmetric duel with the greatest power to choose its engagements. It's still the unit that can chase its opponent through a screen, break off to pursue another unit, or just cycle round to renew its charge bonus with the most ease. Meanwhile the foot character is still the unit that can be completely blocked by a $100 unit of chaff infantry. This is where the comparison to a hierotitan falls down (as well as HP) - you can't stop a hierotitan getting contact with its target with a zombie summon.

    What this is changing is not really the importance of momentum - it's changing the fact that the high-mass unit's choice to take the fight against the foot character was risk-free (at least assuming the controlling player didn't go AFK after the first attack order). That was always bad gameplay and always deserved a root-and-branch change.

    I welcome the change, and if any unpleasant builds arise, then they should be easy to nerf on a case-by-case basis. I'd much rather live in a world where sometimes certain melee foot characters need nerfs than one in which no buff they receive can ever make them competitive.


    Get on, Kroq-Gar, we're going shopping

  • SarmatiannsSarmatianns Registered Users Posts: 4,577
    Maybe Tyrion will finally be worth picking. And be a better fighter than Teclis, perchance ?
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 5,819

    Artillery shooting out of the trees is much more concerning in a balance sense than the knockback change. Would be 100% comfortable prior to seeing any other evidence beyond the Indypride video that it should be removed as an effect from artillery. Imo it should only apply to units that have woodsmen/strider and maybe tweak the value down a little. Definitely not to any form of artillery or magic.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    @Disposable Hero End of the day it has taken 5 years to get to this point, no point in delaying any further. How much more cautious and incremental a rollout can there be? Maybe do it slowly over another ten years? Making the change and letting the cards fall where they may is the best way forward, especially because all factions have footlords who will benefit substantially from this. Sure it will be a massive meta shift but when you've got 5 years of balancing that has evolved around a meta that is now gone for good, you need new data and lots of it ASAP in order to get the game back to a comfortable point of unit interaction. Doing it slowly and piecemeal would cause more harm than good.

    The varying chance for knockdown based on different sized monsters doesn't really make much sense either. If I use myself as an example, it makes no difference if I'm hit by a car, a bus, or a plane, I'm going down and going down hard. All a system like that would do is add a lot of unneeded complexity and hidden stats, and lead to the same frustrating situation of the last 5 years where anti-large specialist Orion can't fight a feral manticore reliably. Attempting to apply realism in this one scenario has virtually no upsides, it would be like applying realism to cavalry so that they can't move like a school of fish and turn on a dime from a full charge without breaking their ankles. Would it be more realistic, yes, would it be more fun to play with cavalry, no.

    The way to balance this is the same way everything else in this game is balanced; stats changes and cost.

    I agree on the ranged forest camping mechanics, it's just broken.

    The rest though, you don't have to delay it much you can play it much more safe by simple inserting the number 50 instead of 85 into the resistance column and you are doing a much more gentle introduction if you want to see how it plays out. Very quick more conservative approach. That would be going from Mass = op to Mass = relevant in duels instead of Mass = op to Mass = irrelevant. Best would still be to not rush out changes of this magnitude without testing it and sure that takes some time. What do they have to gain and what do they have to lose? There is much more to lose than there is to gain from rushing this out. I can easily wait a month or two for a successful introduction while I play a functional game with a brand new dlc, but am I willing to play a broken game for a month or two? If I play another game for 2 months, will I come back? I would, but everyone wouldn't.

    As for the other examples, the foot lords are actually being hit because they take damage so he is not sidestepping anything, he is taking a charging dread saurian to the chest and goes... *bump*. Not everything has to be realistic of course but when things break immersion it's a bit meh... but that's a side note, the main reason for me is anyways that I think that high mass should be a relevant bonus vs low mass, for gameplay reasons, for the simple fact that high mass comes with big hitbox so there are drawbacks with high mass. It makes sense that momentum can also be used to disrupt and knock over.

    (Pulling out helps with mass, but it's the ratio that matters and also smaller units have good mass/footprint area that allows them to waddle in infantry well.)

    So far we have limited insight, I hope some youtuber do some duels. I'd be very interested in seeing Archaon vs Hierotitan, Tyrion vs Arachnoc etc.

    Helping foot melee chars is fine because nobody enjoys stunlock in any game, but making momentum largely irrelevant is pushing way too far to the other side of the sweet spot imo. I think momentum should matter and be part of rock-scissor-paper relations between units.

    Momentum will still have huge tactical significance. The high-mass, high-speed monster is still the unit in this asymmetric duel with the greatest power to choose its engagements. It's still the unit that can chase its opponent through a screen, break off to pursue another unit, or just cycle round to renew its charge bonus with the most ease. Meanwhile the foot character is still the unit that can be completely blocked by a $100 unit of chaff infantry. This is where the comparison to a hierotitan falls down (as well as HP) - you can't stop a hierotitan getting contact with its target with a zombie summon.

    What this is changing is not really the importance of momentum - it's changing the fact that the high-mass unit's choice to take the fight against the foot character was risk-free (at least assuming the controlling player didn't go AFK after the first attack order). That was always bad gameplay and always deserved a root-and-branch change.

    I welcome the change, and if any unpleasant builds arise, then they should be easy to nerf on a case-by-case basis. I'd much rather live in a world where sometimes certain melee foot characters need nerfs than one in which no buff they receive can ever make them competitive.
    That's the effect of speed, not of mass though. A hierotitan doesn't choose it's engagements any more than Ungrim does and iirc they are the same speed.

    High speed is certainly a big, big boon though.

    I am not saying it should be risk free.
  • PippingtonPippington Registered Users Posts: 2,172
    edited November 2020
    It's a function of momentum, which is the product of speed and mass and the term you yourself used. A hierotitan can walk through a screen because even though it's moving slowly, it has high momentum and the collisions can't stop it. A Loremaster can't because his momentum is much lower and a few collisions will bring him to a halt.

    If you don't think a hieroititan chooses its engagements more than Ungrim, summon a unit of zombies on top of each of them and see which one can escape faster. And if you think only speed matters, see how fast Snikch (speed 54) escapes from a zombie summon as opposed to a Stegadon (speed 50).


    Get on, Kroq-Gar, we're going shopping

  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 7,512

    Maybe Tyrion will finally be worth picking. And be a better fighter than Teclis, perchance ?

    stagger was never the main issue for horse lords, weapon length was. Granted if horse characters don't get pushed back anymore in duels like footlords don't, then he might be worth picking.
    mightygloin_fan_1
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 5,819

    It's a function of momentum, which is the product of speed and mass and the term you yourself used. A hierotitan can walk through a screen because even though it's moving slowly, it has high momentum and the zombies can't stop it. A Loremaster can't because his momentum is much lower and a few collisions will bring him to a halt.

    If you don't think a hieroititan chooses its engagements more than Ungrim, summon a unit of zombies on top of each of them and see which one can escape faster. And if you think only speed matters, see how fast Snikch (speed 54) escapes from a zombie summon as opposed to a Stegadon (speed 50).

    By choosing your engagements I assume you mean that you're faster than the target you want to fight and can catch him, and that the target that you don't want to fight is not faster than you and can't catch you.

    I am not sure waddling speed is too important in this context, and they are probably not identical but also probably not dramatically different. Titan has more momentum for sure, but also needs to shove more mass ahead of him because his footprint is big and will push a higher number of models in front of him. Ungrim has 1500 mass but don't need to shove as many models. I am sure they are not the same but it's not like chaff is really stopping ungrim from going where ungrim wants to go either.

    Snikch is a low mass assassin and a bit of a cherry pick when it comes to momentum, but ironically I would say that he has a much easier time picking his engagement than a Stegadon because the opponent can't see him before it's too late. :smile:

    If I haven't been clear enough, I do look forward to this change of mechanics. It will be enabling for balance. I am just raising warning flags about the way this is introduced, it's really going all-in and good luck instead of using some caution and care. The way I see it this is not introducing new mechanics and see how it plays out, it's more throwing everything at the wall and see what sticks, on the live build.

    I am happy that CA can explicitly decide the probability of a knockdown event taking place, but I am not happy about any foot character resisting 9 out of 10 knockdowns from a charging dread saurian. I think it's downplaying momentum too much. Somewhere in between would have made sense both for immersion and tactical depth.
  • PippingtonPippington Registered Users Posts: 2,172
    edited November 2020

    it's not like chaff is really stopping ungrim from going where ungrim wants to go either.

    ???? It absolutely is. You can't path a foot character through a unit of infantry in any reasonable time. Or most horse characters for that matter. Most monsters can do it trivially.

    What I mean by freedom to choose your engagements is pretty much what it says on the tin. We are looking at two classes of units. One stops when it hits enemy units, the other can pass through them reasonably freely. All else being equal, the unit from class 2 has more freedom.

    Getting into stuff like Snikch's stalk is clearly just trying to muddy the waters. If you want the simplest comparison possible, compare Kroq-Gar on Horned One (speed 78) vs. Kroq-Gar on Grymloq (speed 75), both trying to hunt down e.g. Arkhan the Black. One of these units cares about skeletons in the way, the other doesn't.



    Get on, Kroq-Gar, we're going shopping

  • mightygloinmightygloin Karaz-a-KarakRegistered Users Posts: 3,818

    Helping foot melee chars is fine because nobody enjoys stunlock in any game, but making momentum largely irrelevant is pushing way too far to the other side of the sweet spot imo. I think momentum should matter and be part of rock-scissor-paper relations between units.

    Momentum will still have huge tactical significance. The high-mass, high-speed monster is still the unit in this asymmetric duel with the greatest power to choose its engagements. It's still the unit that can chase its opponent through a screen, break off to pursue another unit, or just cycle round to renew its charge bonus with the most ease. Meanwhile the foot character is still the unit that can be completely blocked by a $100 unit of chaff infantry. This is where the comparison to a hierotitan falls down (as well as HP) - you can't stop a hierotitan getting contact with its target with a zombie summon.

    What this is changing is not really the importance of momentum - it's changing the fact that the high-mass unit's choice to take the fight against the foot character was risk-free (at least assuming the controlling player didn't go AFK after the first attack order). That was always bad gameplay and always deserved a root-and-branch change.

    I welcome the change, and if any unpleasant builds arise, then they should be easy to nerf on a case-by-case basis. I'd much rather live in a world where sometimes certain melee foot characters need nerfs than one in which no buff they receive can ever make them competitive.

  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 29,161
    edited November 2020
    Heck, it's not just chaff that blocks foot characters, your own troops do that as well. In 3K and Troy your own troops move out of the way when a character moves through. Time this change is ported back to WH.

  • mightygloinmightygloin Karaz-a-KarakRegistered Users Posts: 3,818
    Green0 said:

    Maybe Tyrion will finally be worth picking. And be a better fighter than Teclis, perchance ?

    stagger was never the main issue for horse lords, weapon length was. Granted if horse characters don't get pushed back anymore in duels like footlords don't, then he might be worth picking.
    In what imaginary world footlords don't get pushed back lad? They aren't glued to the ground, they slide back just like mounts, and can suffer from stagger and reach issues just as well if you've paid attention to the recent vids.

    Also they still fall even if rarely. We shall see how much.






  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 5,819
    It's still mostly speed mate, be it inside a unit of zombies or outside it. Of course it's easier for high mass to pull out of infantry, like I also said, but it's just that. It doesn't allow you to pick and choose engagements if you're slow but have high mass. A corpse cart doesn't pick it's engagement even if it had a million mass. It's not like mass allows you to pick engagements in itself if you don't have speed to go with it, but having high mass may make you hard to stop from going in a direction you want to go, that's true. That's basically pulling out of infantry you don't want to be in, like originally mentioned. It's not nothing, we agree on that.

    If you want to argue against what I argue for then argue against what I want. I want a more careful introduction than it appears we're in for. I would not be worried at all if this change when introduced made Gotrek resist every second knockdown roll from a dread saurian. That would mean going from 5% effective resist to 50% effective resist, which is a very big buff but it doesn't effectively remove the foot char knockdown mechanics. But, seeing that he will be resisting like 9 out of 10 resist rolls worries me a lot, especially considering that I believe charge defense is fixed for single entities and infantry is made generally a bit more sticky all at the same time.

    Again, I am not saying it was good the way it was, but I am saying that the change will be almost binary, from mass being completely dominant in melee to mass being almost irrelevant in a melee duel. Important to remember is that it's not only the stunlock we're getting rid off (which is good), but also the renewal of monster CB (which is also good). This together with functional CDvL will really put the high MA and MD of foot characters into play. It's a huge shift from being functionally unimportant in the worst cases to being fully functional. A feral stegadon has 48/32 vs small, while Gotrek has 77/50 vs large and CDvL. This duel will change from 95:5 in stegadon favor to 20:80 or something if braced. Numbers pulled out of my hat, but the point is that it's not a tweak, it's a complete turnaround of unit interaction outcome and it's added for 0 gold cost to dozens of chars. Archaon has 70/60, Tyrion has what? 81/72 or something with MM up?

    Foot chars are restricted still by their speed though and will not be for all builds, but some build types could be very seriously buffed. Maybe the real big winners are horses and flying cav mounts for all we know, but regardless there is more uncertainty how this will play out than there would have needed to be.
  • PippingtonPippington Registered Users Posts: 2,172
    I have argued against what you want, because I've argued against why you want it. You say you think this approach is needed because you want momentum still to be relevant; I think momentum is still going to be highly relevant regardless of this change.

    In any case, this change is coming whether folks like it or not, so I don't feel compelled to argue the point further - there's no chance they are going to overhaul the whole system like you describe in the 10 days between now and release. For sure it will be a step change in some unit vs. unit matchups and could shake up the meta a lot. But I'm willing to gamble that'll be a positive rather than a negative.


    Get on, Kroq-Gar, we're going shopping

  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 5,819
    Yea of course it's coming and I want it to come! I tried to help making it happen.

    We need to separate the mechanics change (or bug fix if you want to call it that), which is the introduction of a knockdown grace period during which you are immune to further knockdown rolls, from the balance change, which is assigning the value 85% to knockdown resistance (if this is still unchanged, which it might seem as).

    The first, the mechanics fix, is excellent. It's exactly what I was asking for, I am super happy.

    The second, assigning a new value in the order of 90% effective knockdown resistance, from the former effective 5% resistance, I mean is an extreme balance decision and has absolutely nothing to do with the introduction of a grace period. It's an active balance decision to make some characters effectively immune to momentum. This is a number, and it could be chosen with some care, there is nothing forcing the balance team to throw the game in at the deep end of the pool and hope for the best.

    My suggestion would be to start with 50% and see how that plays out instead of starting at the other extreme.

  • MitechMitech Registered Users Posts: 32
    Give it 4 years it will be balanced in the end.
    Already suggesting a change to something you haven't even tested, where is the good Disposable who wants to see how it plays out before calling foul.
  • The_real_FAUSTThe_real_FAUST Registered Users Posts: 1,260

    Yea of course it's coming and I want it to come! I tried to help making it happen.

    We need to separate the mechanics change (or bug fix if you want to call it that), which is the introduction of a knockdown grace period during which you are immune to further knockdown rolls, from the balance change, which is assigning the value 85% to knockdown resistance (if this is still unchanged, which it might seem as).

    The first, the mechanics fix, is excellent. It's exactly what I was asking for, I am super happy.

    The second, assigning a new value in the order of 90% effective knockdown resistance, from the former effective 5% resistance, I mean is an extreme balance decision and has absolutely nothing to do with the introduction of a grace period. It's an active balance decision to make some characters effectively immune to momentum. This is a number, and it could be chosen with some care, there is nothing forcing the balance team to throw the game in at the deep end of the pool and hope for the best.

    My suggestion would be to start with 50% and see how that plays out instead of starting at the other extreme.

    You've made that very clear. At length. Repeatedly.

    We get it.

    Now let's see what happens with the patch. This is getting dull, both sides have been explained at length so now let's see the proof and end this interminable wailing.
  • saweendrasaweendra Registered Users Posts: 9,692

    Maybe Tyrion will finally be worth picking. And be a better fighter than Teclis, perchance ?

    Nah peclis all the way, why is that nerd riding a creature blessed by assryan him self.
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 5,819

    Yea of course it's coming and I want it to come! I tried to help making it happen.

    We need to separate the mechanics change (or bug fix if you want to call it that), which is the introduction of a knockdown grace period during which you are immune to further knockdown rolls, from the balance change, which is assigning the value 85% to knockdown resistance (if this is still unchanged, which it might seem as).

    The first, the mechanics fix, is excellent. It's exactly what I was asking for, I am super happy.

    The second, assigning a new value in the order of 90% effective knockdown resistance, from the former effective 5% resistance, I mean is an extreme balance decision and has absolutely nothing to do with the introduction of a grace period. It's an active balance decision to make some characters effectively immune to momentum. This is a number, and it could be chosen with some care, there is nothing forcing the balance team to throw the game in at the deep end of the pool and hope for the best.

    My suggestion would be to start with 50% and see how that plays out instead of starting at the other extreme.

    You've made that very clear. At length. Repeatedly.

    We get it.

    Now let's see what happens with the patch. This is getting dull, both sides have been explained at length so now let's see the proof and end this interminable wailing.
    Nobody is happier than me if I don't have to explain I am not against fixing the mechanics. 😉
  • WojmirVonCarsteinWojmirVonCarstein Registered Users Posts: 1,359
    Honestly, I am glad that infantry lords will be better. Now, you will actually have a real choice to make: Put your lord on flying monster with all the benefits/drawkbacks that brings or keep them on foot.

    Maybe finally we will see more variants of characters played! Like, has anyone every seen Boris, or Karl or Chaos Lord or HE prince or Malakeith on foot?
  • another505another505 Registered Users Posts: 2,759
    Cav lords being better will br a huge bonus to HE. Tyrion and imrik noble are solid horse characters already
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