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WE changes so far

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  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 10,146

    Bastilean said:

    yst said:

    Lol poor hawks getting nerfed with 360

    ? nerfed ?
    oh 360 shooting cap, can't take lot of them like in the past.
    Its nto a nerf u never had need for 7 such units in WE army.
  • SarmatiannsSarmatianns Registered Users Posts: 4,492
    Well, Hawks now fall into same cap with Sisters, Glade Riders, Scouts, Waywatchers...

    So, while it may be annoying that they're 360, at least you're forced to make a choice.
  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 8,356
    edited November 2020
    Actually, should hold that thought. Theres pro and cons to it, fact is we never has a 140m 360 on air before. Frikking 140m lol could be something. Still not a pure buff when ure losing 360 slots

    They have garbage shooting “animation” before so will need to actually test it out first
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  • outrage4outrage4 master engineerRegistered Users Posts: 416

    Well, Hawks now fall into same cap with Sisters, Glade Riders, Scouts, Waywatchers...

    So, while it may be annoying that they're 360, at least you're forced to make a choice.

    This choise is realated to gold limit and has nothing to do with 360 cap though. In realistic scenarios WE going to have 4-5 360 units and they usually will not take more because it costs too much. Waywatchers are basically the same so the biggest amount of 360 units for WE in competitive games would be some variation of this.




    That is huge gold investment. Replace glade lord with sisters and you get 6 360 units (sister probably cost even more). Taking more than that is madness and most or the time its going to be 4 or 5 360 units.

  • outrage4outrage4 master engineerRegistered Users Posts: 416
    By the way from what i understood waywathers got +50 gold and the rest is unchaged so no Deepwods scouts meta any time soon.
  • WitchbladeWitchblade Registered Users Posts: 843
    360 Hawks is a really, really bad idea. WE air spam can easily become super cancerous. 4+ hawks and Sisters of Twilight can easily take out most lords and casters and they can dodge most incoming arrows. This is basically the gyro problem but in a faction that can kite: you're forced to prepare every build under the assumption the enemy may have 4+ hawks.

    And don't hawks outrange almost all skirmish cav? So they can kite all chaos factions to crap with almost no counterplay.
  • SarmatiannsSarmatianns Registered Users Posts: 4,492
    Well, downside is that Hawks have really low damage output.

    Total potential damage output of hawks is 10 692, and suffer more from overkill due having low model count and higher damage per a single missile.

    For comparison, Glade Riders have 19 800.
    Deepwood Scouts have over 29 000
    Goblin Wolf Rider Archers have 11 800
    Gunbats with handguns have 14 250
  • SarmatiannsSarmatianns Registered Users Posts: 4,492
    Anyway, the age of pew pew for Wood Elves is over. The time of glorious Great Stag rushes has come
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 5,741
    From the look of it you can now make a vanguarded hidden tree blob behind the opponent even while pewpewing with hawks and sisters.... The tree blob just became harder to find, it might be right behind you!
  • outrage4outrage4 master engineerRegistered Users Posts: 416
    Agaisnt the factions WE picked waywathcers previously not much going to change.
  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 8,356
    Them shooting out of forest now gonna be a pain to deal with
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  • IMayboIMaybo Registered Users Posts: 457
    ye, hopefully, there will be fewer waywatchers
    something like skaven's jezzails, 1-2 max

    from the videos we got so far, new cavalry doesn't seem OP as the usual DLC stuff, everybody expects
    its too early to make any conclusions, though

    but some of the changes are disturbing

    shooting-flyers abuse and treeblob abuse are the most obvious

    seems like CA doesn't know what to do with treekin
    they seem to go in the direction of making them more offensive, but at the same time they have too many abilities and stats that scream "defense" + they are slow

    so far it looks like a messy business
  • tank3487tank3487 Member Registered Users Posts: 2,116

    This is basically the gyro problem but in a faction that can kite

    Gyro cannot shoot 360. So if you has a same number of melee flyers as gyros, it is not that hard to counter them.
  • tank3487tank3487 Member Registered Users Posts: 2,116

    Well, downside is that Hawks have really low damage output.
    Total potential damage output of hawks is 10 692

    Not many Lords can sustain 10k damage in the face. Even if you add misses.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 7,001
    As sarmatian mentioned units with quite limited ammo are inherently limited in how annoying they can be. Screen your army, have some counter fire, ride it out.
  • tank3487tank3487 Member Registered Users Posts: 2,116
    eumaies said:

    As sarmatian mentioned units with quite limited ammo are inherently limited in how annoying they can be. Screen your army, have some counter fire, ride it out.

    Screening flying units are not that easy as you mention it. Especially with now having 360.
  • hanenhanen Registered Users Posts: 497
    Or if you lack ranged attacks...
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 7,001
    tank3487 said:

    eumaies said:

    As sarmatian mentioned units with quite limited ammo are inherently limited in how annoying they can be. Screen your army, have some counter fire, ride it out.

    Screening flying units are not that easy as you mention it. Especially with now having 360.
    You can usually protect your vulnerable unit in the center. And 360 doesn’t change the difficulty of that much. Unless you’re VC and your only way to screen is by chasing the 360 unit - there I agree it’s tougher.

    But the broader point is similar - low damage output for high cost. Can’t A faction with heals just trade ammo for heals when screening?

    For norsca chaos and beastmen you might just have to soak it while protecting your core with your limited ranged. But being high hp factions I’m not sure the payoff is too bad if the hawks are mostly shooting up your archer cav with their ammo.
  • saweendrasaweendra Registered Users Posts: 8,403
    Orion meta incoming i wounder how much damage great stags can do with horn of the wild hunt active
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc
  • IMayboIMaybo Registered Users Posts: 457

    Orion meta incoming i wounder how much damage great stags can do with horn of the wild hunt active

    Help me understand, I guess I missed it, great stags are other new cavalry units for WE? despite melee glade riders?
    or you are talking about a new captain on great stag?
  • saweendrasaweendra Registered Users Posts: 8,403
    IMaybo said:

    Orion meta incoming i wounder how much damage great stags can do with horn of the wild hunt active

    Help me understand, I guess I missed it, great stags are other new cavalry units for WE? despite melee glade riders?
    or you are talking about a new captain on great stag?
    Yes great stag knights part of dlc unit.

    They are also a mount as well.
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc
  • PocmanPocman Registered Users Posts: 4,053
    edited November 2020
    yst said:

    What the fork with treekin, 26 dmg? Did they frikking not know treekin can solo pilgrim and squire. Now they can frikking kill 3x pilgrims solo

    And vanguard lmao..... good lord

    A 900 monster inf unit trading well into infantry units half their price that are specifically supposed to trade badly against! treekin Stop the presses! This needs to be put in the newspaper! And that is probably only if you don't micro the infantry! This is unacceptable! Treekin should be always useless!


    Plus, MD becomes more valuable the more you have, so going from 51 to 46 is actually a pretty noticeable nerf. So, in terms of 1v1 performance, unless those extra 26 damage are almost pure AP, this is as much a nerf as it is a buff. Specially in the one MU were they were actually useful (Vampire Counts).

    Again, unless those extra 26 damage are mostly AP, they are going to trade worse, at least against squires. Maybe not against pilgrims.

    They are getting a


    , this will probably be a nerf for them. Don't wanna do the math, by 100% sure they will trade worse against


    1) Orion can shoot while moving.

    2) Glade Riders with spears are here. 550 gold, same as Ellyrian Reavers (Reavers seem straight up better, but that is probably more the case of Reavers being too cheap)


    Reavers do not have shields.


    tank3487 said:

    This is basically the gyro problem but in a faction that can kite

    Gyro cannot shoot 360. So if you has a same number of melee flyers as gyros, it is not that hard to counter them.
    Except gyros actually did damage. Plus the calibration distance of hawk riders is 70. Meaning low accuracy.

    Hawk riders have never been a problem to anyone except vampires, and that stopped being a thing after the Von Carmstein vampire lord.

    Plus this limits the possibility of bringing other 360 units.

    Hawk riders will still be seen in about zero battles after this.
  • PocmanPocman Registered Users Posts: 4,053

    Glade Captain seems like a Waystalker that loses Stalk in exchange for a monstrous mount.

    Nah, it's a handmaiden with better melee ap ratio. Pretty sure her missile attack profile is the same: AP, in theory, but in practice deals so little damage per shoot that the waystalker will be better even against armored targets.

    I'm pretty sure that except the great stag mount, they will share the same animations.
  • SarmatiannsSarmatianns Registered Users Posts: 4,492
    Well, I share the concern of 360 hawk riders. It probably shouldn't have happened. There were far safer buffs. But, we will see how influential they will be now...


    We've yet to see DLC units...

    We know that Stagtain has 60 CB... but maybe Great Stag Knights have even more? Wild Riders have 62 + frenzy.

    Are Stag Knights similar, or more grindy? Stay tuned :)
  • PocmanPocman Registered Users Posts: 4,053

    Well, I share the concern of 360 hawk riders. It probably shouldn't have happened. There were far safer buffs. But, we will see how influential they will be now...


    We've yet to see DLC units...

    We know that Stagtain has 60 CB... but maybe Great Stag Knights have even more? Wild Riders have 62 + frenzy.

    Are Stag Knights similar, or more grindy? Stay tuned :)

    They are supposed to be "linebreakers" whatever that means.

    Imho, they are probably monster cavalry, so a very high CB won't be as problematic due to lack of models.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 10,146
    outrage4 said:

    Well, Hawks now fall into same cap with Sisters, Glade Riders, Scouts, Waywatchers...

    So, while it may be annoying that they're 360, at least you're forced to make a choice.

    This choise is realated to gold limit and has nothing to do with 360 cap though. In realistic scenarios WE going to have 4-5 360 units and they usually will not take more because it costs too much. Waywatchers are basically the same so the biggest amount of 360 units for WE in competitive games would be some variation of this.




    That is huge gold investment. Replace glade lord with sisters and you get 6 360 units (sister probably cost even more). Taking more than that is madness and most or the time its going to be 4 or 5 360 units.

    Charecters dont count to 360* cap
  • glosskilosglosskilos Registered Users Posts: 1,231
    Hawk riders missile attack sucked before though. I always found them to be more useful in melee.
  • saweendrasaweendra Registered Users Posts: 8,403
    So according to new news zoats are ap and BvL so probably drago orgers heavy, rip bretonnia
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc
  • IMayboIMaybo Registered Users Posts: 457
    in video they said that new cav is good vs armored infantry, so maybe BvI

    from 1:05 "puncturing robust formations of heavy infantry"



    p.s. ye i agree, rip Bretonnia's domination over WE, I hope there will be no more one-sided matchups where WE players had to play perfectly or capitalize on Brets player mistakes in order to win
  • saweendrasaweendra Registered Users Posts: 8,403
    I just don't like the fact bret cav loose to other cav, CA should have gone with a different approach to fix this. But oh well.
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc
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