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The Discourse around this DLC is unpleasant (from both sides)

SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 3,106
edited November 21 in Off Topic General
We have yet to see everything this DLC has to offer, as CA keep Drycha's units/variants under wraps, yet the reveal of the Twisted and the Twilight has upset many people (myself included) in one way or another and I'd argue there are many reasons to be concerned or disappointed.

- This DLC took 7 months.

- We had the usual communication issues, unless Drycha is hiding a ton of stuff CA may have straight up lied to us.

- Reports are coming in that the Wood Elves have received a big nerf in campaign and possibly MP as well.

- CA has tried to fix Footlords but thrown the baby out with the bathwater and potentially nerfed squishy characters into the dirt.

- The units and generic heroes we're getting, love them or hate them, are mostly re-skins, even the Zoats seemingly.

- Many of the Wood Elves problems and parts of their lore have been straight up ignored from what we know right now.

- They still don't have all their lores.

- This could very well be the final content for the Wood Elves ever (if it is that's really bad, even if what we got here ends up being a net-good).


Naturally when people get upset online they freak out or lash out and online discourse is notoriously toxic (though I've yet to see any straight up abuse personally) people are getting angry and turning on CA big time, going all out against them, saying they were never good, etc.

However, on the otherside (as I've seen happen every single time new content is released) people are Simping for CA HARD! calling all people with issues whining entitled babies, saying this is the best **** we've ever seen, demanding other people buy it even if they don't want it simply because they think it will increase the likelihood of a Beastmen DLC in the future, etc.

I plan on making a measured response to the DLC after the Drycha's free stuff, an attempt to reasonably and respectfully voice concerns about the bad and preach about the good, but I wanted to make this post before then because I just can't stand all this bs back and forth.


So I just wanna make a public service announcement to everyone and say:

- Stop apologising for and blindly defending the games industry! they're here to exploit you first and foremost.

- Remember the devs are humans that have been working very hard under lockdown conditions to provide us this content.

- Remember that any and all problems with the coming content, with the choice of characters or units, dodgy execution etc are 9 times out of 10 going to be GamesWorkshop or Sega or CA execs fault because they're the ones dictating what's allowed, what budget and dev time they get, they're the ones who impose crunch, etc. Grace and the Devs aren't the ones to be blamed (the devs even came out and said they'd love to commit time and resources to updating all the stuff they've already made, but that the higher ups would prefer they focus on making new content and thus more money).

- Regardless of how bad a DLC is, its not worth abusing people over.

- Just because you got what you wanted, doesn't mean everyone else did and doesn't automatically make all criticism about the coming content null and void (also doesn't mean you should victory dance all over others).

- Never strawman and brush of criticism as entitled baby **** because it mostly isn't (even if it is conveyed with hyperbole). Consumer advocacy and a strong vocal community are the only thing standing between us getting good content that we want and us getting microtransactions and race packs that cost £30 for the same amount of content.

- Remember not everyone is as rich as you. I see alot of people advocating for bigger and better things at a much higher cost or laughing at the price tag of DLC's and games because its a pittance to them. Money is tight for many, especially now and when talking about improvising stuff or adjusting price you always need to think from the perspective of those to whom money means alot more.

- CA listens to our criticism (remember the Knights of Morr, Silverin Guard, etc) and the more respectful, composed and coherent it is, the more likely they are to respond positively to it.

Apologies if this seems to preachy or like grand standing, Its just really been bothering me.
Post edited by dge1 on
«1345

Comments

  • CaesarSahlertzCaesarSahlertz Registered Users Posts: 3,273
    What imaginary lie has CA told us this time around?
  • ERICdbsERICdbs Registered Users Posts: 423
    edited November 21
    Decent post.

    In any case, be like Pestilence my friend.

    Post edited by BillyRuffian on
  • eomateomat Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,722
    I'm interested to see the extra stuff that they are adding if we own all the DLC and game. So far CA have not only managed to make a DLC but a full magnificent rework and add extra stuff to a Race that was pretty much considered complete.

    Personally the only thing I still want is the Shadowdancer and it looks like we won't get that.
  • veresh1989veresh1989 Russia, Saint-PetersburgRegistered Users Posts: 948
    I'm willing to forgive them if they give Scarloc in Laurelorn Forest or Bowmen of Oreon
  • CaesarSahlertzCaesarSahlertz Registered Users Posts: 3,273

    I'm willing to forgive them if they give Scarloc in Laurelorn Forest or Bowmen of Oreon

    You are gonna have to hold on to that "foregiveness" (as if CA has wronged you *rolls eyes*), since Scarloc is never going to be included in the game, since he is a pathetic character with nothing going for him..
  • Arcani_4_EverArcani_4_Ever Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,520
    Actually most of the complains are not regarding the DLC itself.

    But the actual Patch Changes (and apparent nerfs to Wood Elves best unit and economy)
  • HondlisHondlis Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 561
    Agree with all of it. But in the end its 8 bucks. I waste tripple that amount every friday.

    So yeah... but do i even care by this point?

    Btw it almost seems CA tried to cut off funds to get better return as it is unclear how succesful this DLC for DLC will be. Kind of Beastmen 2.0.
  • Theo91Theo91 Registered Users Posts: 1,998
    Hondlis said:

    Agree with all of it. But in the end its 8 bucks. I waste tripple that amount every friday.

    So yeah... but do i even care by this point?

    Btw it almost seems CA tried to cut off funds to get better return as it is unclear how succesful this DLC for DLC will be. Kind of Beastmen 2.0.

    This guys is spot on. It’s £7. Everyone needs to chill. No one is forcing you to buy it
  • RikRiorikRikRiorik Registered Users Posts: 9,310
    So far on what I’ve seen I’m placing this LP in 5th place out of 8 but could even slip down to 6th. Which is a shame seeing as it was going to be the one to promote DLC for DLC. For something that is supposedly to sell the idea of DLC for DLC it does seem a little low effort.

    The FLC portions centered around the campaign rework are excellent. The forest healing and new magical forests are a nice addition. Tech still seems a bit shallow. Remains to be seen if the additions that are as of yet unrevealed will make the FLC portion feel like it beefs up and sells the idea of the original Race Pack DLC well enough as that is really it’s job. But going off of the current information I actually think it falls just a little short. This doesn’t seem quite on par with the Empire or Greenskin rework.

    All in all it feels, so far, like CA are playing this a little bit more to keep from losing than they are to win.
    Lord of the Undermountain and your friendly neighbourhood giant (Dwarf)
    Favourite campaigns: Clan Angrund, Followers of Nagash and the new Huntsmarshall’s Expedition
  • makar55makar55 Registered Users Posts: 2,295
    Now post it on reddit and get downvoted.
  • Quasar2299Quasar2299 Registered Users Posts: 95
    I think you should add a line saying we should also wait till everything is revealed before criticizing. A lot of people are throwing fits over stuff that might be in the game, just not yet revealed. Once they reveal everything, then we can criticize it as much as we want, especially if they've broken promises, many people are complaining about the lack of the free units/variants, but we still haven't seen what they're bringing with Drycha.
  • ROMOBOYROMOBOY Registered Users Posts: 2,166
    I don’t get why people think Wood Elves should have a booming economy. They’re hippies who devote themselves entirely to saving forests. That’s not exactly a wealthy industry.
  • MaedrethnirMaedrethnir Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 9,228
    edited November 21
    In defence of Great Stag Knights and Zoats: both have new animations*, but yes, both are also remodels. It is especially visible on the Zoat model, it should be bulkier and its legs structure is all wrong - it is a Dragon Ogre in a cosplay after all.


    What pains me the most is the lack of Spites unit and Shadowdancer hero. The Sisters are air focused faction, yet there is not even one air unit in the LP. Bat sized Spites would add a lot to them, and to Drycha too.


    *idle and charge for GSK and casting animation for a Zoat(I don't remember Dragon Ogres and Shaggots having it, but I might be not-right)

    eomat said:

    I'm interested to see the extra stuff that they are adding if we own all the DLC and game. So far CA have not only managed to make a DLC but a full magnificent rework and add extra stuff to a Race that was pretty much considered complete.

    Personally the only thing I still want is the Shadowdancer and it looks like we won't get that.

    I think they are far from completed.

    H: Shadowdancer

    Units:
    1. Spites
    2. Meadow Chariots
    3. Hounds
    4. And the other animals, especially Wild Cats
    5. Laith-Kourn
    6. Naiads - I would prefer them for the Bretonnia, but they are a valid option

    Variants:
    1. Arrow variants
    2. Visually distinctive Dryad variants
    Post edited by Maedrethnir on
    Drowned in stars, bloated we shine.
    ... .... .... --··-- -. --- - . .- .-. ... ·-·-·- --- -. .-.. -.-- -.. .-. . .- -- ... -. --- .-- ·-·-·-

  • RikRiorikRikRiorik Registered Users Posts: 9,310
    ROMOBOY said:

    I don’t get why people think Wood Elves should have a booming economy. They’re hippies who devote themselves entirely to saving forests. That’s not exactly a wealthy industry.

    And still, they have three income buildings now, can trade immediately and there’s still a fair bit of upkeep reduction floating about.

    I think they’ll be fine.
    Lord of the Undermountain and your friendly neighbourhood giant (Dwarf)
    Favourite campaigns: Clan Angrund, Followers of Nagash and the new Huntsmarshall’s Expedition
  • 55JoNNo55JoNNo Registered Users Posts: 856
    Lord packs have always been very economical with assets you already own in the base games - ( e.g. high elf rangers are archers with swords and the dark elf Corsair rig) seems odd everyone being so upset with that now
  • CaesarSahlertzCaesarSahlertz Registered Users Posts: 3,273
    Claiming disappointment is fine, and you can vote with your money. Crying foul and whining that CA has somehow lied and/or betrayed you, means you get called a whiney little kid. Go figure..
  • LaindeshLaindesh Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,680
    I've always advocated a "wait until all have been revealed before you judge" stance.
    We can discuss about bits and pieces that we've seen, but that ain't the entire picture.
    So hold your complaints, your criticism, until everyhting is revealed and we truly know how things plays out. Only then should we point critism, complaints, praises and whatsnot toward CA.





  • sykallsykall Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 703
    edited November 21
    I have yet to see unpleasantness in the discussions, or maybe I missed them due to the sheer amount of new threads over the last two days.

    But what I can say about what I have seen so far, is that the dlc and update are behind my expectations, and it made quite a lot of compromises.
    But I must also say that the WE appear to be more fun than ever and I can't wait to play them.
    So there is some good, some bad, but in the end I leave with a good feeling.
    Post edited by BillyRuffian on
  • GreatGreyWolfSifGreatGreyWolfSif Registered Users Posts: 44
    All of the criticism about the economy seems to stem from the playthrough that LOTW put out saying that the Wood Elves are weaker than the Beastmen. All the other streamers I've watched seem to be having no issue with the new way the woodelves play. It's most likely to do with the fact that LOTW plays on legendary difficulty and with that difficulty comes the usual artificial increases to upkeep and costs ect so I imagine if the economy has been 'nerfed' then it will be felt more keenly in that difficulty. Surely though if you play on legendary you expect the game to be difficult and punish you. The majority of people won't play on legendary difficulty.
  • ZekerathZekerath Registered Users Posts: 301

    In defence of Great Stag Knights and Zoats: both have new animations*, but yes, both are also remodels. It is especially visible on the Zoat model, it should be bulkier and its legs structure is all wrong - it is a Dragon Ogre in a cosplay after all.

    *idle and charge for GSK and casting animation for a Zoat(I don't remember Dragon Ogres and Shaggots having it, but I might be not-right)


    What pains me the most is the lack of Spites unit and Shadowdancer hero. The Sisters are air focused faction, yet there is not even one air unit in the LP. Bat sized Spites would add a lot to them, and to Drycha too.


    eomat said:

    I'm interested to see the extra stuff that they are adding if we own all the DLC and game. So far CA have not only managed to make a DLC but a full magnificent rework and add extra stuff to a Race that was pretty much considered complete.

    Personally the only thing I still want is the Shadowdancer and it looks like we won't get that.

    I think they are far from completed.

    H: Shadowdancer

    Units:
    1. Spites
    2. Meadow Chariots
    3. Hounds
    4. And the other animals, especially Wild Cats
    5. Laith-Kourn
    6. Naiads - I would prefer them for th Bretonnia, but they are a valid option

    Variants:
    1. Arrow variants
    2. Visually distinctive Dryad variants
    Seeing how the glade captain has skills named after Loec, and one skill in particular that seems to give them a dance not unlike what wardancers have and gives wardancers and bladesingers vanguard, I think CA has simply merged shadowdancer with the glade captain. And as I have said in another thread, I don't think wood elves particularly need another spellcaster hero, especially since branchwraiths have access to lore of shadow spells that would be fitting to shadowdancer (in that respect, shadowdancer has been split between branchwraith and glade captain).

    So as much as I'd love to see shadowdancers too, I'm not particularly holding my breath.
  • CaesarSahlertzCaesarSahlertz Registered Users Posts: 3,273
    LOTW is a **** on legs... He knows how to do one thing and one thing only, and that is to cheese his way to victory. Needless to say then, when possibilities to cheese are taken away, his "skill" with a faction is severely lowered... His words on the gameplay is worth about as much as a toddler's..
  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Registered Users Posts: 21,858
    edited November 21
    I don't see any evidence of the forum being worse than usual. It's a DLC. Some people get upset, it's how that works.

    I've had my income cut in half by Covid. I'm not poor but I'm not exactly financially thriving. This DLC is still 11 bucks. It's not much. And frankly it's not that big a deal, it wouldn't be a big deal if it was 15.
    Post edited by BillyRuffian on
    Thanks CA for working with Epic Games to give us Troy for free!
  • veresh1989veresh1989 Russia, Saint-PetersburgRegistered Users Posts: 948

    I'm willing to forgive them if they give Scarloc in Laurelorn Forest or Bowmen of Oreon

    You are gonna have to hold on to that "foregiveness" (as if CA has wronged you *rolls eyes*), since Scarloc is never going to be included in the game, since he is a pathetic character with nothing going for him..
    Skaven are boring to me. I don't want to play as mutant rats and evil trees, I want an elf shooter, an elite commando punishing enemies outside the forest. That's what's fun, not sad rats with trees.

    If the CA fulfills this need, there is still time, they will gain credibility and recognition.
  • CrossilCrossil Registered Users Posts: 8,697
    It all feels same for me.

    UNLEASH THE EVERCHARIOT

  • MaedrethnirMaedrethnir Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 9,228
    55JoNNo said:

    Lord packs have always been very economical with assets you already own in the base games - ( e.g. high elf rangers are archers with swords and the dark elf Corsair rig) seems odd everyone being so upset with that now

    Hah! I were, I'm and I will be upset with Rangers.
    Laindesh said:

    I've always advocated a "wait until all have been revealed before you judge" stance.
    We can discuss about bits and pieces that we've seen, but that ain't the entire picture.
    So hold your complaints, your criticism, until everyhting is revealed and we truly know how things plays out. Only then should we point critism, complaints, praises and whatsnot toward CA.





    Then I think we should also advocate to wait with pre-orders. It's only fair.
    Drowned in stars, bloated we shine.
    ... .... .... --··-- -. --- - . .- .-. ... ·-·-·- --- -. .-.. -.-- -.. .-. . .- -- ... -. --- .-- ·-·-·-

  • GreatGreyWolfSifGreatGreyWolfSif Registered Users Posts: 44

    LOTW is a **** on legs... He knows how to do one thing and one thing only, and that is to cheese his way to victory. Needless to say then, when possibilities to cheese are taken away, his "skill" with a faction is severely lowered... His words on the gameplay is worth about as much as a toddler's..

    I just don't see the point of declaring a faction to be broken and unplayable based on the playthrough of the hardest difficulty, that by description, is supposed to hinder the player and make things more difficult. If you play on legendary then sure they might be harder to play as but surely a harder campaign is what you signed up for? :|
  • LaindeshLaindesh Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,680
    edited November 21

    LOTW is a **** on legs... He knows how to do one thing and one thing only, and that is to cheese his way to victory. Needless to say then, when possibilities to cheese are taken away, his "skill" with a faction is severely lowered... His words on the gameplay is worth about as much as a toddler's..

    Judging from one POV is something i advised people from doing. Zerkovich was doing just fine in his stream.
    LoTW on the other hand fell straight back to the tactics he always uses, with a race which no longer play like the usual factions :x

    Hell Loremaster of Sotek seemed to have a ton of fun in his.

    And there you go, i personally got at least 3 POV under my belt. And even then i don't make a heavy judgement.
  • SelakahSelakah Registered Users Posts: 588
    edited November 21
    I don't understand why people are up in arms about the faction being broken based on the opinion of >ONE< YouTuber who is notorious for playing in the most cheesiest way possible, and who flat out admitted at the beginning of his stream that he still didn't get the faction.
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 3,106
    edited November 22
    @Hondlis

    The price is a justified issue to go over as well. Yes it released cheep, but the Wood Elves and Hellpit both arguably required more content.

    The DLC's are kept so cheep to soften the blow of how much DLC content there is in general, but at the same time, the price of all of it combined is insane anyway and we only get about 3 content drops a year so whats the point?

    Releasing Bite-sized DLC's is arguably a bad thing in its own right for this reason. Are CA going to amend the Wood Elves, Clan Moulder, Eshen etc in the future? or is this all we get? because if it is all we get, its done something of a disservice to the faction and game simply so they can disguise how much we have to pay overall.

    If Lord Packs were £14 each and came along 3 times a year, that's still £42 a year? which in the grand scheme of things is a rather small amount.

    and even with that set aside, this DLC took 7 months to make, longer than a Race Pack even, yet in terms of content, unless they're hiding quite a bit, it seems to be even less than what we got with Warden and the Paunch, Hunter and the Beast (Empire and Greenskin update) etc.

    So while at the end of the day it may be good value for money, there are reasons to be skeptical or critical of this business model, what we're getting for the time it took, how factions are being sold short to subsidise the content, etc.
    Post edited by SeanJeanquoi on
  • CaesarSahlertzCaesarSahlertz Registered Users Posts: 3,273

    I'm willing to forgive them if they give Scarloc in Laurelorn Forest or Bowmen of Oreon

    You are gonna have to hold on to that "foregiveness" (as if CA has wronged you *rolls eyes*), since Scarloc is never going to be included in the game, since he is a pathetic character with nothing going for him..
    Skaven are boring to me. I don't want to play as mutant rats and evil trees, I want an elf shooter, an elite commando punishing enemies outside the forest. That's what's fun, not sad rats with trees.

    If the CA fulfills this need, there is still time, they will gain credibility and recognition.
    The Twins are both "elite archers" and have infinitely more background and gravitas than Scarloc could ever have... Also, ALL Wood Elves are by definition elite... Araloth is more interesting than Scarloc... And both of those characters can effectively be made by recruiting a Glade Lord... So basically asking for Scarloc is setting yourself up for disappointment since he is never going to be included, until ALL other Wood Elf options are exhausted..
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