The Discourse around this DLC is unpleasant (from both sides)

MadDemiurg

I'll address your main points:

- We had the usual communication issues, unless Drycha is hiding a ton of stuff CA may have straight up lied to us.
You misinterpreting what CA said the way you want doesn't mean CA is lying. Anyways you will have full info now and can decide if the DLC is worth your money, so it's not like you've been deceived into buying something you don't want.


- Reports are coming in that the Wood Elves have received a big nerf in campaign and possibly MP as well.
What I've seen about WE MP looks like huge buffs so far. As far as LOTW complaining about WE getting nerfed in SP, he's a cheeser who can't play the game normally (before you try to put me in place saying that he's a much better player I've beaten a large number of Legendary campaigns myself not resorting to even 10% of the cheese he uses). Oh noes, they removed Talon of Kurnous stacking and I can't have 300 range waywatches now. Woe is me. I have to actually play the game to win the campaign now. I would wait and see for yourself how the new WE campaign plays. Since you don't need amber anymore you only need to defend a handful of forests, so you might not even need as many armies as other races to win the campaign easily.

- CA has tried to fix Footlords but thrown the baby out with the bathwater and potentially nerfed squishy characters into the dirt.
Another premature jumping to conclusions, we haven't seen much, wait and see how it is in game.

- The units and generic heroes we're getting, love them or hate them, are mostly re-skins, even the Zoats seemingly.
I would say it's in line with previous dlcs, Great stag models are great, Zoats do seem to use dragon ogre chasis but still look nice. I would only be disappointed if I had unrealistic expectations about this dlc surpassing all the previous ones.

- Many of the Wood Elves problems and parts of their lore have been straight up ignored from what we know right now.
I see them addressing a lot of them, like amber, having to defend outposts and paint the map.

- They still don't have all their lores.
It looks like it's not CA's intention to give them all their lores, as well as DE. At least it's a legit complaint, although it doesn't seem like a major deal to me if you don't play MP and lore of light will be brokenly OP on WE in MP.

- This could very well be the final content for the Wood Elves ever (if it is that's really bad, even if what we got here ends up being a net-good).
You don't know that. Even if it is, a year ago most people thought that DLC races will at best be updated through FLCs. The fact that this happened is already a big deal and better than most expected.

SeanJeanquoi

Selakah said:

I don't understand why people are up in arms about the faction being broken based on the opinion of >ONE< YouTuber who is notorious for playing in the most cheesiest way possible, and who flat out admitted at the beginning of his stream that he still didn't get the faction.

I said in my OP that there are reasons to be concerned and listed that as one potential reason. If correct, it is a genuine flaw with what we're getting. I'm not saying any of these points are 100% confirmed or legit.

I myself don't go near Legendary or Very Hard most of the time so it won't affect me but its a legit thing to be concerned about if true.

Vanilla_Gorilla

If we look at the WE LP it's considerably better than what was predicted beforehand. 3 LLs, good new units, a solid looking rework.

veresh1989

CaesarSahlertz said:

veresh1989 said:

CaesarSahlertz said:

veresh1989 said:

I'm willing to forgive them if they give Scarloc in Laurelorn Forest or Bowmen of Oreon

You are gonna have to hold on to that "foregiveness" (as if CA has wronged you *rolls eyes*), since Scarloc is never going to be included in the game, since he is a pathetic character with nothing going for him..

Skaven are boring to me. I don't want to play as mutant rats and evil trees, I want an elf shooter, an elite commando punishing enemies outside the forest. That's what's fun, not sad rats with trees.

If the CA fulfills this need, there is still time, they will gain credibility and recognition.

The Twins are both "elite archers" and have infinitely more background and gravitas than Scarloc could ever have... Also, ALL Wood Elves are by definition elite... Araloth is more interesting than Scarloc... And both of those characters can effectively be made by recruiting a Glade Lord... So basically asking for Scarloc is setting yourself up for disappointment since he is never going to be included, until ALL other Wood Elf options are exhausted..

The sisters are a flying monster squad. Araloth is a duelist ruler. Only Scarloc is an Archer, master of ambushes, special forces exterminating enemies outside the forest. Its uniqueness and importance as a Lord is obvious and we need to get it in advance, before the next rework.

lucibuis

I don’t think the content is bad per se, but it’s clearly lower effort compared to the previous dlc and that’s really odd... they had so much time to work on this

Vanilla_Gorilla

lucibuis said:

I don’t think the content is bad per se, but it’s clearly lower effort compared to the previous dlc and that’s really odd... they had so much time to work on this

Effort is super hard to quantify.

We just don't know what affect work from home has had on them, or the situation. You can claim it has less content than prior LPs, but effort? Can't quantify that.

Fraxinus

I appreciate your measured and reasonable response. It's a breath of fresh air on here.

Meanwhile I'm over here just sad because the announcement of more dlc for WH2 means WH3 is still a ways off...

SeanJeanquoi

@MadDemiurg

This was not intended to be something you can or should attempt to debunk. I'm saying these are genuine concerns that, if true, would be a negative or have already contributed negatively to the discourse and peoples expectations.

Basically every response you gave was seeped in your own bias and your interpretation of what you maybe thought I was meaning rather than what I actually said.

This blind white knighting for a company is exactly one of the things I'm advocating against in my OP.

Laindesh

veresh1989 said:

CaesarSahlertz said:

veresh1989 said:

CaesarSahlertz said:

veresh1989 said:

I'm willing to forgive them if they give Scarloc in Laurelorn Forest or Bowmen of Oreon

You are gonna have to hold on to that "foregiveness" (as if CA has wronged you *rolls eyes*), since Scarloc is never going to be included in the game, since he is a pathetic character with nothing going for him..

Skaven are boring to me. I don't want to play as mutant rats and evil trees, I want an elf shooter, an elite commando punishing enemies outside the forest. That's what's fun, not sad rats with trees.

If the CA fulfills this need, there is still time, they will gain credibility and recognition.

The Twins are both "elite archers" and have infinitely more background and gravitas than Scarloc could ever have... Also, ALL Wood Elves are by definition elite... Araloth is more interesting than Scarloc... And both of those characters can effectively be made by recruiting a Glade Lord... So basically asking for Scarloc is setting yourself up for disappointment since he is never going to be included, until ALL other Wood Elf options are exhausted..

The sisters are a flying monster squad. Araloth is a duelist ruler. Only Scarloc is an Archer, master of ambushes, special forces exterminating enemies outside the forest. Its uniqueness and importance as a Lord is obvious and we need to get it in advance, before the next rework.

Can you guys stop spilling that topic all over the forum? Make a thread on it and discuss it there.

This thread is about how the community behaves and responded after CA unleashed info on part of the content on us.

CaesarSahlertz

veresh1989 said:

CaesarSahlertz said:

veresh1989 said:

CaesarSahlertz said:

veresh1989 said:

I'm willing to forgive them if they give Scarloc in Laurelorn Forest or Bowmen of Oreon

You are gonna have to hold on to that "foregiveness" (as if CA has wronged you *rolls eyes*), since Scarloc is never going to be included in the game, since he is a pathetic character with nothing going for him..

Skaven are boring to me. I don't want to play as mutant rats and evil trees, I want an elf shooter, an elite commando punishing enemies outside the forest. That's what's fun, not sad rats with trees.

If the CA fulfills this need, there is still time, they will gain credibility and recognition.

The Twins are both "elite archers" and have infinitely more background and gravitas than Scarloc could ever have... Also, ALL Wood Elves are by definition elite... Araloth is more interesting than Scarloc... And both of those characters can effectively be made by recruiting a Glade Lord... So basically asking for Scarloc is setting yourself up for disappointment since he is never going to be included, until ALL other Wood Elf options are exhausted..

The sisters are a flying monster squad. Araloth is a duelist ruler. Only Scarloc is an Archer, master of ambushes, special forces exterminating enemies outside the forest. Its uniqueness and importance as a Lord is obvious and we need to get it in advance, before the next rework.

I should know better than to try and enlighten people with no grasp of the lore... Oh well...

lucibuis

Vanilla_Gorilla said:

lucibuis said:

I don’t think the content is bad per se, but it’s clearly lower effort compared to the previous dlc and that’s really odd... they had so much time to work on this

Effort is super hard to quantify.

We just don't know what affect work from home has had on them, or the situation. You can claim it has less content than prior LPs, but effort? Can't quantify that.

That’s true, might have been harder to code the rework, who knows. Content wise though, it seems light, just check the warden and the paunch steam page, it adds like double the content

CaesarSahlertz

SeanJeanquoi said:

@MadDemiurg

This was not intended to be something you can or should attempt to debunk. I'm saying these are genuine concerns that, if true, would be a negative or have already contributed negatively to the discourse and peoples expectations.

Basically every response you gave was seeped in your own bias and your interpretation of what you maybe thought I was meaning rather than what I actually said.

This blind white knighting for a company is exactly one of the things I'm advocating against in my OP.

And yet here you are, claiming that reasonable arguements against all of your "concerns" are white knighting. All the while you try to cover yourself in rethorical kevlar by saying "oh these are just my feeeeeeelings on the matter! My feeeeeelings can't be wrong!"...

SeanJeanquoi

55JoNNo said:

Lord packs have always been very economical with assets you already own in the base games - ( e.g. high elf rangers are archers with swords and the dark elf Corsair rig) seems odd everyone being so upset with that now

That's something I want to address in the post I'm gonna make after everything is revealed.

The truth is that yes, they do reuse stuff all the time, but people are bothered about it everytime as well. Its a myth that this has only cropped up now, there's always a backlash.

How subdued or severe it is depends greatly on how good or bad the overall package is. I have an equal issue with Stone Trolls as I do HE Rangers and Stag Knights and so on. As do many other people.

The negativity simply gets drowned out or dismissed as childish whining alot as I've pointed out in my OP.

Selakah

lucibuis said:

I don’t think the content is bad per se, but it’s clearly lower effort compared to the previous dlc and that’s really odd... they had so much time to work on this

I don't get how you can say the content is low effort. You are literally getting FOUR named characters: two Legendary Lords and two Legendary Heroes. On top of that, you get a FLC Legendary Lord, and if the Blondie leak on stream is correct, we get a FLC Legendary Hero too. That's SIX NAMED CHARACTERS.

We've never had this much content in a Lord Pack before.

SeanJeanquoi

@Selakah

Untrue, Warden and the Paunch and Hunter and the Beast for example had more in their DLC and updates (again, TBC, could change with more info).

veresh1989

CaesarSahlertz said:

veresh1989 said:

CaesarSahlertz said:

veresh1989 said:

CaesarSahlertz said:

veresh1989 said:

I'm willing to forgive them if they give Scarloc in Laurelorn Forest or Bowmen of Oreon

You are gonna have to hold on to that "foregiveness" (as if CA has wronged you *rolls eyes*), since Scarloc is never going to be included in the game, since he is a pathetic character with nothing going for him..

Skaven are boring to me. I don't want to play as mutant rats and evil trees, I want an elf shooter, an elite commando punishing enemies outside the forest. That's what's fun, not sad rats with trees.

If the CA fulfills this need, there is still time, they will gain credibility and recognition.

The Twins are both "elite archers" and have infinitely more background and gravitas than Scarloc could ever have... Also, ALL Wood Elves are by definition elite... Araloth is more interesting than Scarloc... And both of those characters can effectively be made by recruiting a Glade Lord... So basically asking for Scarloc is setting yourself up for disappointment since he is never going to be included, until ALL other Wood Elf options are exhausted..

The sisters are a flying monster squad. Araloth is a duelist ruler. Only Scarloc is an Archer, master of ambushes, special forces exterminating enemies outside the forest. Its uniqueness and importance as a Lord is obvious and we need to get it in advance, before the next rework.

I should know better than to try and enlighten people with no grasp of the lore... Oh well...

All dwarves have no differences between each other. Queek and Tretch are the same. They can be used according to your logic. A scarloc foot Archer for a faction of archers can not be. There are big problems with your logic and arguments.

Vanilla_Gorilla

lucibuis said:

Vanilla_Gorilla said:

lucibuis said:

I don’t think the content is bad per se, but it’s clearly lower effort compared to the previous dlc and that’s really odd... they had so much time to work on this

Effort is super hard to quantify.

We just don't know what affect work from home has had on them, or the situation. You can claim it has less content than prior LPs, but effort? Can't quantify that.

That’s true, might have been harder to code the rework, who knows. Content wise though, it seems light, just check the warden and the paunch steam page, it adds like double the content

3 LLs, 2 Legendary Heroes. 3 good units each, a hero for each, WE rework.

At minimum that's par.

SeanJeanquoi

@CaesarSahlertz

Not sure why you've come out so hard against one side of the issue, that's not what I'm saying and They weren't good points if they're attacking a misunderstood or assumed version of what I said. Most of his responses didn't even address or counter what I actually think.

Vanilla_Gorilla

SeanJeanquoi said:

@MadDemiurg

This was not intended to be something you can or should attempt to debunk. I'm saying these are genuine concerns that, if true, would be a negative or have already contributed negatively to the discourse and peoples expectations.

Basically every response you gave was seeped in your own bias and your interpretation of what you maybe thought I was meaning rather than what I actually said.

This blind white knighting for a company is exactly one of the things I'm advocating against in my OP.

You can't claim a moral high ground when you're insulting people and claiming your points are beyond counter.

mightygloin

Reports are coming in that the Wood Elves have received a big nerf in campaign and possibly MP as well.

"Big nerf" what? Just because they can cheese less money? Weak in MP despite new units filling roster gaps and new characters? Some funny rumors people are pooping out.

- CA has tried to fix Footlords but thrown the baby out with the bathwater and potentially nerfed squishy characters into the dirt.

Squishy characters will finally be squishy instead of extending their life constantly by ragdolling. A lone mage surrounded by opponent shouldn't live long.

Overall the patch and decision to add more heroes has been great.

MadDemiurg

SeanJeanquoi said:

@MadDemiurg

This was not intended to be something you can or should attempt to debunk. I'm saying these are genuine concerns that, if true, would be a negative or have already contributed negatively to the discourse and peoples expectations.

Basically every response you gave was seeped in your own bias and your interpretation of what you maybe thought I was meaning rather than what I actually said.

This blind white knighting for a company is exactly one of the things I'm advocating against in my OP.

I have no interest in white knighting CA, I just don't see how this DLC is worse than the previous ones.

SeanJeanquoi

@Vanilla_Gorilla

It's not an insult, I'm pointing out that they are behaving in a way my OP was intended to counter. My intention was to call a spade a spade not to be disrespectful.

Heinzu

ROMOBOY said:

I don’t get why people think Wood Elves should have a booming economy. They’re hippies who devote themselves entirely to saving forests. That’s not exactly a wealthy industry.

How exactly would you like to defeat factions with 40 and more settlements? Economy nerf is definitely mistake.

AxiosXiphos

The only thing that is unpleasant is the 3-4 individuals who are determined to make a scene over childish semantics. Similar to this situation;



CA didn't "Lie" to you - it's just absolutely pathetic... If someone wants to make a genuine criticism I will glady listen; but everything I have heard so far has just been utter rubbish...

SeanJeanquoi

@MadDemiurg

This is why in my OP I said I was planning on waiting until we know more to make a proper post on the subject, this was just intended as a plea to stop people engaging in stupid or lazy thinking/arguments on both sides.

I never said LOTW was 100% correct, i said people are correct in being concerned based on what he said, and if what he said is right then that's a legit issue with the DLC/update.

I'm not saying this DLC is flat out worse than those prior either (yet). This plays into my point on communication and what CA said to us, its worse based on what they implied (may even be objectively less than they told us, hence the lie accusation) and its worse based on what one would reasonably expect due to the timeframe.

CA said for months that this DLC is a big risk and they want to make sure players feel properly compensated for the dodgy practice of DLC for DLC and it took longer to make than a Race pack and in their FLC array and July blog they implied a far bigger picture than what we've seen before and a bigger picture than what we ended up getting too.

Even if people end up being technically "unjustified" in their complaints, its totally valid in regards to their atrocious communication, how long it took them and what they said.

Vanilla_Gorilla

SeanJeanquoi said:

@Vanilla_Gorilla

It's not an insult, I'm pointing out that they are behaving in a way my OP was intended to counter. My intention was to call a spade a spade not to be disrespectful.

Saying people are "blind white knighting" is an insult. Saying your OP is beyond counter even though that's the entire point of the forum isn't nice and directly contradicts your own message. If you want to claim the moral high ground you don't get to throw insults and tell people they can't disagree with you.

Frankly this thread is a good example of a toxic thread.

GreatGreyWolfSif

Heinzu said:

ROMOBOY said:

I don’t get why people think Wood Elves should have a booming economy. They’re hippies who devote themselves entirely to saving forests. That’s not exactly a wealthy industry.

How exactly would you like to defeat factions with 40 and more settlements? Economy nerf is definitely mistake.

That's not how the Woodelves play anymore. They don't need to defeat factions to win the campaign they need to defend and save the forests. The economy nerf is something that LOTW brought up, but as has been said previously, he plays on legendary where the economy gets nerfed artificially by the game to make it more difficult. As Laindesh said people should get more than one POV before making thier decisions on how bad the changes are. All the other players i've seen don't seem to be having any issues with playing as he Woodelves.

lucibuis

Selakah said:

lucibuis said:

I don’t think the content is bad per se, but it’s clearly lower effort compared to the previous dlc and that’s really odd... they had so much time to work on this

I don't get how you can say the content is low effort. You are literally getting FOUR named characters: two Legendary Lords and two Legendary Heroes. On top of that, you get a FLC Legendary Lord, and if the Blondie leak on stream is correct, we get a FLC Legendary Hero too. That's SIX NAMED CHARACTERS.

We've never had this much content in a Lord Pack before.

I’m talking about the dlc, that’s one lord and 5 units/hero/lord each. I think greenskins had 6?

High elves got a lot of reskins too, but skaven and wood elves nothing so far in the dlc.

Flc wise we have to wait, Drycha might bring more stuff

SeanJeanquoi

@AxiosXiphos

Yours is the behaviour I'm advocating against here. You have a strawman of your opposition in your head, you literally think people are crying like children over this (they aren't) and assuming their criticisms aren't legit (we'll see). Most of the criticisms brought up so far have been genuine, regardless of how important or not important you think they are.

This is a massive issue with online discourse in general: Just because someone mentions something as a problem, doesn't mean they think its THE issue, like its massively important and without this its ruined, no, stop inferring how important people think these issues are, if they're issues, they're issues, worth discussing, bringing up and dealing with.

Lets take the Siverin Guard for example. I like how they looked, but many people didn't because it wasn't reflective of their lore and didn't make much sense for various reasons. Is this a deal-breaker issue? no, but an issue none the less and its one CA acknowledged as legitimate and has fixed in this update.

Enough with the baby pictures and the anti-consumer ****. If you don't want to be a part of the discourse and listen to peoples criticisms on what they think is good and bad, what they think needs changing, etc, what on earth are you doing on this forum in the first place? (not telling you to leave, I'm simply pointing out this is a space designed for such discourse)

EmeraldThanatos

GreatGreyWolfSif said:

Heinzu said:

ROMOBOY said:

I don’t get why people think Wood Elves should have a booming economy. They’re hippies who devote themselves entirely to saving forests. That’s not exactly a wealthy industry.

How exactly would you like to defeat factions with 40 and more settlements? Economy nerf is definitely mistake.

That's not how the Woodelves play anymore. They don't need to defeat factions to win the campaign they need to defend and save the forests. The economy nerf is something that LOTW brought up, but as has been said previously, he plays on legendary where the economy gets nerfed artificially by the game to make it more difficult. As Laindesh said people should get more than one POV before making thier decisions on how bad the changes are. All the other players i've seen don't seem to be having any issues with playing as he Woodelves.

That's a very good point, WE are defensive, not offensive, it is easier to defend against a 40 region empire than to attack a 40 region empire. WE shouldn't expand rapidly, they should expand slowly and only to specific places.