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The Discourse around this DLC is unpleasant (from both sides)

124

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  • MaedrethnirMaedrethnir Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 9,805
    Laindesh said:

    Laindesh said:

    Zekerath said:

    In defence of Great Stag Knights and Zoats: both have new animations*, but yes, both are also remodels. It is especially visible on the Zoat model, it should be bulkier and its legs structure is all wrong - it is a Dragon Ogre in a cosplay after all.

    *idle and charge for GSK and casting animation for a Zoat(I don't remember Dragon Ogres and Shaggots having it, but I might be not-right)


    What pains me the most is the lack of Spites unit and Shadowdancer hero. The Sisters are air focused faction, yet there is not even one air unit in the LP. Bat sized Spites would add a lot to them, and to Drycha too.


    eomat said:

    I'm interested to see the extra stuff that they are adding if we own all the DLC and game. So far CA have not only managed to make a DLC but a full magnificent rework and add extra stuff to a Race that was pretty much considered complete.

    Personally the only thing I still want is the Shadowdancer and it looks like we won't get that.

    I think they are far from completed.

    H: Shadowdancer

    Units:
    1. Spites
    2. Meadow Chariots
    3. Hounds
    4. And the other animals, especially Wild Cats
    5. Laith-Kourn
    6. Naiads - I would prefer them for th Bretonnia, but they are a valid option

    Variants:
    1. Arrow variants
    2. Visually distinctive Dryad variants
    Seeing how the glade captain has skills named after Loec, and one skill in particular that seems to give them a dance not unlike what wardancers have and gives wardancers and bladesingers vanguard, I think CA has simply merged shadowdancer with the glade captain. And as I have said in another thread, I don't think wood elves particularly need another spellcaster hero, especially since branchwraiths have access to lore of shadow spells that would be fitting to shadowdancer (in that respect, shadowdancer has been split between branchwraith and glade captain).

    So as much as I'd love to see shadowdancers too, I'm not particularly holding my breath.
    If that's true then it is a mistake. Shadowdancers should come with dances and lore of shadows.



    - The units and generic heroes we're getting, love them or hate them, are mostly re-skins, even the Zoats seemingly.
    I would say it's in line with previous dlcs, Great stag models are great, Zoats do seem to use dragon ogre chasis but still look nice. I would only be disappointed if I had unrealistic expectations about this dlc surpassing all the previous ones.

    No, absolutely not. Let's look at P&W:

    LL: Grom - new animations

    H: Giant River Hag Troll - new animations beyond those used by River Trolls

    1. Snotling Pump Wagons - new model and new animations
    2. River Trolls - new model and new animations
    3. Rogue Idol - new model and new animations
    4. Stone Dragons - recolour

    This LP is the first ever DLC for DLC, it should convince customers that paying twice will be worth it. So far every WE unit is a remodel and the Sisters new mechanic appears to be extremely lacklustre in comparison to Throt's labolatory.

    It should be better than the best LP ever, but it is not. It is in fact worse than the GS side of the last LP.


    This is a good reasonable post with no bloodshed. But i disagree, if this is all Woodies have left to offer, they are doner than done.

    I must disagree. Most of these units would flesh out the forest spirit side of the WE.
    You do not need to own game one nor RotWE to play this DLC though. So no they don't have to put more effort into the twilight DLC than usual. (Also: Sisters, Ariel, Throt and Ghoritch all with new animations etc makes up for whats missing with units).

    Drycha and rework is where they have to prove its worth getting game 1 and RotWE for.
    Only on the Vortex map. Yes, they do have to put more effort into the Twilight DLC because they are selling the WE for the second time, it's a matter of business practice, treatment of those who already own the WE DLC. It was CA's golden opportunity to show their customers that paying twice is worth it. DLC for DLC is a controversial subject for a reason.
    " DLC for DLC is a controversial subject for a reason." I won't disagree on that.

    If sisters really is just vortex (if you dont have RotWE) then fair point.
    Personally the quality of the FLC and rework also plays in though and can make up for it to an extent.
    I don't know if their ME access requires RotWE but it for sure requires Game1.


    No, absolutely not. Let's look at P&W:

    LL: Grom - new animations

    H: Giant River Hag Troll - new animations beyond those used by River Trolls

    1. Snotling Pump Wagons - new model and new animations
    2. River Trolls - new model and new animations
    3. Rogue Idol - new model and new animations
    4. Stone Dragons - recolour

    This LP is the first ever DLC for DLC, it should convince customers that paying twice will be worth it. So far every WE unit is a remodel and the Sisters new mechanic appears to be extremely lacklustre in comparison to Throt's labolatory.

    It should be better than the best LP ever, but it is not. It is in fact worse than the GS side of the last LP.

    By these standards any non monster unit is not a new unit and should come for free, right? But WE are not a monster heavy faction. And humanoid units are not free to make. I'm pretty sure Empire fans would be super happy to get Knights of the White Wolf, Teutogen Guard or Warrior Priests of Ulrik, with no monstrous models attached.

    Bladesingers, Glade Captains, Spellweavers might or might not have new animations, we don't know that.

    Even then Sisters, Ariel, Great Stag mounts, Great Stag knights are completely new models with new animations and while Zoats do use Dragon Ogre chassis (you can argue about River Trolls also being just reskinned Trolls tbh) they do seem to have new animations. So on the unit side it seems close to me, of course who got the better deal is always subjective.

    I can sort of agree about lord mechanics (at least the effort that seemingly went into them) although I can't say I'm a fan of easy mode OP mechanics and hope Throt's lab is not an "I win" button. To me the more important part about the new lords are how fun they are to play and how different they are to other lords of the faction in terms of playstyle (and also preferably that they are challenging). We don't know that about sisters yet.

    WE did get a ton of core mechanics changes though.
    Non monster units too can get new animations and models. For an example Spellweaver and Bladesinger could have been male characters. The WE are Elf/Forest Spirit faction and they don't have many forest spirits.

    From what I have seen, I doubt it.

    LLs are given to receive new animations, or at least that should be the case. Great Stag Knights do have new animations yes, but not all of them are new, and it is not a new model. Yes, Zoats have spell casting animation, that being said they should have been new models in order to look good, they don't look like Zoats proper. River Trolls might use the same rig but their animations are fresh. I don't think it is subjective at all.

    I don't know about easy, but Throt's lab appears to be interactive, and to offer replayability. It's simply fun at first glance.

    Eh, their new mechanics are decent but pretty lacklustre. The Weave, seasons and wild hunts have not been expanded, and offices remain the same. I would say that the Empire rework was better.
    animacja-sygn-3.gif


  • LaindeshLaindesh Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,840

    Laindesh said:

    Laindesh said:

    Zekerath said:

    In defence of Great Stag Knights and Zoats: both have new animations*, but yes, both are also remodels. It is especially visible on the Zoat model, it should be bulkier and its legs structure is all wrong - it is a Dragon Ogre in a cosplay after all.

    *idle and charge for GSK and casting animation for a Zoat(I don't remember Dragon Ogres and Shaggots having it, but I might be not-right)


    What pains me the most is the lack of Spites unit and Shadowdancer hero. The Sisters are air focused faction, yet there is not even one air unit in the LP. Bat sized Spites would add a lot to them, and to Drycha too.


    eomat said:

    I'm interested to see the extra stuff that they are adding if we own all the DLC and game. So far CA have not only managed to make a DLC but a full magnificent rework and add extra stuff to a Race that was pretty much considered complete.

    Personally the only thing I still want is the Shadowdancer and it looks like we won't get that.

    I think they are far from completed.

    H: Shadowdancer

    Units:
    1. Spites
    2. Meadow Chariots
    3. Hounds
    4. And the other animals, especially Wild Cats
    5. Laith-Kourn
    6. Naiads - I would prefer them for th Bretonnia, but they are a valid option

    Variants:
    1. Arrow variants
    2. Visually distinctive Dryad variants
    Seeing how the glade captain has skills named after Loec, and one skill in particular that seems to give them a dance not unlike what wardancers have and gives wardancers and bladesingers vanguard, I think CA has simply merged shadowdancer with the glade captain. And as I have said in another thread, I don't think wood elves particularly need another spellcaster hero, especially since branchwraiths have access to lore of shadow spells that would be fitting to shadowdancer (in that respect, shadowdancer has been split between branchwraith and glade captain).

    So as much as I'd love to see shadowdancers too, I'm not particularly holding my breath.
    If that's true then it is a mistake. Shadowdancers should come with dances and lore of shadows.



    - The units and generic heroes we're getting, love them or hate them, are mostly re-skins, even the Zoats seemingly.
    I would say it's in line with previous dlcs, Great stag models are great, Zoats do seem to use dragon ogre chasis but still look nice. I would only be disappointed if I had unrealistic expectations about this dlc surpassing all the previous ones.

    No, absolutely not. Let's look at P&W:

    LL: Grom - new animations

    H: Giant River Hag Troll - new animations beyond those used by River Trolls

    1. Snotling Pump Wagons - new model and new animations
    2. River Trolls - new model and new animations
    3. Rogue Idol - new model and new animations
    4. Stone Dragons - recolour

    This LP is the first ever DLC for DLC, it should convince customers that paying twice will be worth it. So far every WE unit is a remodel and the Sisters new mechanic appears to be extremely lacklustre in comparison to Throt's labolatory.

    It should be better than the best LP ever, but it is not. It is in fact worse than the GS side of the last LP.


    This is a good reasonable post with no bloodshed. But i disagree, if this is all Woodies have left to offer, they are doner than done.

    I must disagree. Most of these units would flesh out the forest spirit side of the WE.
    You do not need to own game one nor RotWE to play this DLC though. So no they don't have to put more effort into the twilight DLC than usual. (Also: Sisters, Ariel, Throt and Ghoritch all with new animations etc makes up for whats missing with units).

    Drycha and rework is where they have to prove its worth getting game 1 and RotWE for.
    Only on the Vortex map. Yes, they do have to put more effort into the Twilight DLC because they are selling the WE for the second time, it's a matter of business practice, treatment of those who already own the WE DLC. It was CA's golden opportunity to show their customers that paying twice is worth it. DLC for DLC is a controversial subject for a reason.
    " DLC for DLC is a controversial subject for a reason." I won't disagree on that.

    If sisters really is just vortex (if you dont have RotWE) then fair point.
    Personally the quality of the FLC and rework also plays in though and can make up for it to an extent.
    You can play them in ME even if you don't have RotWE
    If thats the case, the DLC is just fine :)
  • RamsesIIIRamsesIII Registered Users Posts: 210
    I feel like the 2 LHs included aren't given their due weight when comparing this lord pack to the previous one. It's clear there's been a lot of effort put into them model and animation wise, and they have a unique skill tree too. If Drycha gets Coeddil as a LH then it's an even better deal.

    As for all the gameplay changes, LoTW has great knowledge of the game's mechanics, but he certainly doesn't play like most people or debatably the "right" way, so I don't think his impressions on their own are worth worrying about so much, specially for a race that isn't supposed to play the traditional way. I think it's fine to feel some concern, but a lot of people are jumping the gun in my opinion.
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 3,307
  • jamesbluewavejamesbluewave Registered Users Posts: 487
    Ofcourse, you have tabletop and CA fanboys who are used to paying an insane amount of money for their hobby. There’s people literally asking for cut content pre order DLC in this forum, don’t expect normal people here, this is the crazy of the crazy.

    You also, have people like me, who saw CA turn in2 €A, just for reference all the DLC they printed for Warhammer 2 cost WAY more than the base game and the base game is trash vortex campaign and what? 3 LL per major faction? . This is the franchise of nickel and diming. So that’s the fanbase that gets cultivated.
  • BonutzBonutz Registered Users Posts: 2,904
    This is the same exact discourse that comes with every DLC release. Some people love it. Some people hate it.

    And I got news for you: that isn’t stopping anytime soon.
  • davedave1124davedave1124 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 10,698
    Argument seems like a sledge hammer and misses the point.

    People don't believe CA is 100% bad or 100% good, the problem is finding the reality that exists in the middle.
  • John_KimbleJohn_Kimble Registered Users Posts: 781
    edited November 2020
    I find it baffling how people who are criticizing the quality of the units we are getting, completely glance over this tiny little detail: we are getting TWO legendary heroes who are on the same quality (if not arguably higher) of the two flagship LLs and are 100% part of the DLC.
    Ariel and Ghorritch are completely new models with completely new animations. The work what went in them is on-par if not even GREATER than the work that went into developing and modeling the two flagship LL's.
    These two LH are 100% part of this DLC (Kroak was FLC), and this has never happened in the past. Thus, its completely pointless to compare the "quality" of the units in this DLC with previous ones. There are no 1-to-1 comparable situations. Budgets are finite and limited. And CA decided, with what they could utilize budget-wise, to actually give us two additional completely new and unique Legendary lords. God it's so annoying being so hyped that we're getting 4 unique characters from the lore and then reading about people complaining that Zoats share Dragon Ogre animations...

    Also, as with every DLC, once again the age old discussion of reskin (Zoats) vs recolor (Stone Trolls). Zoats have completely unique textures and completely unique weapons (those are new models). What do you want CA to do? Come up with a set of unique and slightly different animations for quadruped centaur-like creatures holding 2-handed weapons essentially identical in morphology to Dragon Ogres? Of course thats not going to happen. They're inevitably going to share animations. Is it really that big of a deal? I'll agree that recolors are a bit cheap (really disliked the Stone Troll thing) but Zoats look great...
    Actually you know what, i bet they DO have unique animations, since they cast spells. So there you go.

    Great Stags are 100% new models with a brand new set of completely new animations, from idle to charge.

    Of course there's some things that i wish CA would have done slightly differently. I wish they would have gone for a male Spellweaver for example, who had an amazing TT model. Moreso, i wish they would have gone with male Bladesingers with their classic 4th ed. crazy red hair, to set them apart from all the female blade dancers we have already (especially because the Glade Captain is a kitbashed blade dancer as well).
    But whatever, we're getting so much content that i get over it.

    And dont get me started on the whole Legend thing with WE economy. He's literally the only single early-access dude that has said anything about it. Just him, notoriously a cheeser who constantly finds exploits he can use to insta-win his campaigns (got nothing wrong with him i enjoy some of his content once in a while). Bohoo he cant spam 300-range waywatchers stack to AFK his way to victory... big deal.
    There's actually a very well thought out post on reddit that theorycrafts with proper data (can't be bothered to look up) that compeletly debunks everything he said...




  • NyxilisNyxilis Registered Users Posts: 4,221
    Okay, reading this conclusions.

    Player makes complaints, some might even be fair. That's okay.

    Then basically uses every point of debate that is contrary as personal bias. What point do we get to point the finger at you for your blatantly obvious personal bias?

    Use crutch of defenders just being sycophants. Can we use the crutch of only using cynicism?

    This is not a discussion of those points, this is not a discussion really even on the WE. This is just ego stroking while completely dismissing anything anyone else has to say without really truly addressing their points.
  • ArsenicArsenic Registered Users Posts: 6,037
    Well, I've been highly critical of CA recently, and so far the Lord Pack looks alright to me. I would have personally swapped Drycha and Ariel around, but I confess I do "get" the reasons they've given for that decision. The units that have come are the units I expected, although giving Throt a mount seems a bit like Pecklis; uncalled for.

    The problem I have is I don't trust the YouTubers after last time, so won't be watching their streams. I'll be relying on you dear people to tel me if it's a buggy mess or just a bit overpowered and in need of tinkering.
    "Ours is a world of fleeting glory. But it is glory, nonetheless."
  • MaedrethnirMaedrethnir Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 9,805

    I find it baffling how people who are criticizing the quality of the units we are getting, completely glance over this tiny little detail: we are getting TWO legendary heroes who are on the same quality (if not arguably higher) of the two flagship LLs and are 100% part of the DLC.
    Ariel and Ghorritch are completely new models with completely new animations. The work what went in them is on-par if not even GREATER than the work that went into developing and modeling the two flagship LL's.
    These two LH are 100% part of this DLC (Kroak was FLC), and this has never happened in the past. Thus, its completely pointless to compare the "quality" of the units in this DLC with previous ones. There are no 1-to-1 comparable situations. Budgets are finite and limited. And CA decided, with what they could utilize budget-wise, to actually give us two additional completely new and unique Legendary lords. God it's so annoying being so hyped that we're getting 4 unique characters from the lore and then reading about people complaining that Zoats share Dragon Ogre animations...

    Also, as with every DLC, once again the age old discussion of reskin (Zoats) vs recolor (Stone Trolls). Zoats have completely unique textures and completely unique weapons (those are new models). What do you want CA to do? Come up with a set of unique and slightly different animations for quadruped centaur-like creatures holding 2-handed weapons essentially identical in morphology to Dragon Ogres? Of course thats not going to happen. They're inevitably going to share animations. Is it really that big of a deal? I'll agree that recolors are a bit cheap (really disliked the Stone Troll thing) but Zoats look great...
    Actually you know what, i bet they DO have unique animations, since they cast spells. So there you go.

    Great Stags are 100% new models with a brand new set of completely new animations, from idle to charge.

    Of course there's some things that i wish CA would have done slightly differently. I wish they would have gone for a male Spellweaver for example, who had an amazing TT model. Moreso, i wish they would have gone with male Bladesingers with their classic 4th ed. crazy red hair, to set them apart from all the female blade dancers we have already (especially because the Glade Captain is a kitbashed blade dancer as well).
    But whatever, we're getting so much content that i get over it.

    And dont get me started on the whole Legend thing with WE economy. He's literally the only single early-access dude that has said anything about it. Just him, notoriously a cheeser who constantly finds exploits he can use to insta-win his campaigns (got nothing wrong with him i enjoy some of his content once in a while). Bohoo he cant spam 300-range waywatchers stack to AFK his way to victory... big deal.
    There's actually a very well thought out post on reddit that theorycrafts with proper data (can't be bothered to look up) that compeletly debunks everything he said...




    Two legendary heroes still don't make it even, not to mention Ariel should have been FLC LL, and she doesn't fly. That being said, considering that it was meant to be the WE LP first and foremost(promotion of DLC for DLC format), CA could have ignored Ghoritch and give the WE a new unit in its place Controversial, I know, but the Skaven already got two top LPs.

    I want CA to give Zoats new models. They don't have identical morphology to Dragon Ogres, they have different legs structure and body mass, in TW:WH they look scrawny because of being a remodel.

    Great Stags are a remodel with some new animations. Grass sniffing animation for an example comes from a regular stag.

    We aren't really getting 'so much content', not to mention that quality>quantity.
    animacja-sygn-3.gif


  • IamNotArobotIamNotArobot Registered Users Posts: 2,455

    I don't see any evidence of the forum being worse than usual. It's a DLC. Some people get upset, it's how that works.

    I've had my income cut in half by Covid. I'm not poor but I'm not exactly financially thriving. This DLC is still 11 bucks. It's not much. And frankly it's not that big a deal, it wouldn't be a big deal if it was 15.

    Are you low key accepting you are not completely ok with the DLC?

    I haven't talk about the DLC yet cause I want to see it all, I hope each one of you buys it so we get Beastmen DLC and a new race pre order.

    I for example totally hate the fact of getting LL as LH. Like Ariel is a LH and Ghorst a LL...

    That's over now cause it looks like it is now even more evident that they will add more names characters as heroes.

    I only like the treemen aspect of the WE so I'm waiting for Drycha and Coendrill.

    Throt looks just ok.. I imagined him more flashy and fleshy.

    Goritch was a surprise for me and I'm really looking forward to play him.

    I hate the new unit portraits, look bland like the last 2 DLCs (It shows the main team stopped doing WH2 stuff after Prophet/Warlock DLC.

    The rework sounds good and brings WE gameplay to another more enjoyable level. Teleporting and having like different fronts of wars and expansion is a new one.

    Moulder mechanic is ok, it was expected that way.

    Brood horrors I wish they where more pink and white almost transparent.

    What I'm most excited about is that new province in the dark lands. Norther darklands and southern darklands ,odd name though because I hope the darklands are more than that.

    The chaos option is also a nice addition.

    Abandon settlement is also an amazing surprise.

    New minor factions added ok.

    I would say 7/10 for the content.

    I imagine the 7 month wait is not only because of covid, they are not our monthly workforce, as a company they can do whatever they want, their charts will tell them what to do and right now they are telling them to keep doing DLCs while completing WH3.




    Justice and CONFEDERATION for the Tomb Kings and Vampire Coast!

    Exclusive DLCs for Tomb Kings, Vampire Coast, BM, CW and WE! #DLCsAreRacesToo

    Remaster all WH1 and WH2 faction icons for WH3!




  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Registered Users Posts: 22,843
    edited November 2020
    To sum up this thread

    > OP Declares forum is toxic and outlines problems they have
    > OP Declares that no one can disagree with their points
    > OP Insults people who disagree, calling them "blind white knights"
    > OP Declares their insults aren't actual insults, and denies saying people can't disagree.
    > Irony
    > Random discussions break out.
    Thanks CA for working with Epic Games to give us Troy for free!
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 3,307
    edited November 2020
    delete
    Post edited by SeanJeanquoi on
  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Registered Users Posts: 22,843
    edited November 2020
    @IamNotArobot

    I'm not super enthused by it, but overall I'm quite content with it. I'll get a Throt campaign and a sisters campaign out of it no problemo.

    I do wish Ghoritch or however you spell it was a LL instead of a LH. He is after all a proper General, and I don't particularly want to have him under Throt because they're enemies.

    In terms of the campaign updates they do sound pretty solid. CA's definitely slowly working away at making the campaigns themselves better which is always a big plus beyond new units or whatever.
    Thanks CA for working with Epic Games to give us Troy for free!
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 3,307
    edited November 2020
    @Vanilla_Gorilla

    My comment was banished to the warp for verification, so I'll repeat it here.

    White knight isn't an insult to me, I said that to one person (Whiteknighting is what I said in regards to a kind of behaviour, not the person themselves) and I already explained how I did not mean it as derogatory.

    I also didn't say people cant disagree with me, I said people are attacking a strawman of what I said by inferring my meaning and attacking what they thought I meant rather than what I actually meant.

    I also said that most of my "Points" weren't deal breakers or monumental issues, more like concerns or things people want to fix.

    I also said that not all of these points are set in stone or 100% true for sure, but that people are right to be concerned based on what we know and have been told right now.

    It was stupid of me to think I could stop the fighting. The real story of this post is one of a complete failure to communicate between the two sides.
    Post edited by SeanJeanquoi on
  • MadDemiurgMadDemiurg Registered Users Posts: 3,405
    edited November 2020

    I find it baffling how people who are criticizing the quality of the units we are getting, completely glance over this tiny little detail: we are getting TWO legendary heroes who are on the same quality (if not arguably higher) of the two flagship LLs and are 100% part of the DLC.
    Ariel and Ghorritch are completely new models with completely new animations. The work what went in them is on-par if not even GREATER than the work that went into developing and modeling the two flagship LL's.
    These two LH are 100% part of this DLC (Kroak was FLC), and this has never happened in the past. Thus, its completely pointless to compare the "quality" of the units in this DLC with previous ones. There are no 1-to-1 comparable situations. Budgets are finite and limited. And CA decided, with what they could utilize budget-wise, to actually give us two additional completely new and unique Legendary lords. God it's so annoying being so hyped that we're getting 4 unique characters from the lore and then reading about people complaining that Zoats share Dragon Ogre animations...

    Also, as with every DLC, once again the age old discussion of reskin (Zoats) vs recolor (Stone Trolls). Zoats have completely unique textures and completely unique weapons (those are new models). What do you want CA to do? Come up with a set of unique and slightly different animations for quadruped centaur-like creatures holding 2-handed weapons essentially identical in morphology to Dragon Ogres? Of course thats not going to happen. They're inevitably going to share animations. Is it really that big of a deal? I'll agree that recolors are a bit cheap (really disliked the Stone Troll thing) but Zoats look great...
    Actually you know what, i bet they DO have unique animations, since they cast spells. So there you go.

    Great Stags are 100% new models with a brand new set of completely new animations, from idle to charge.

    Of course there's some things that i wish CA would have done slightly differently. I wish they would have gone for a male Spellweaver for example, who had an amazing TT model. Moreso, i wish they would have gone with male Bladesingers with their classic 4th ed. crazy red hair, to set them apart from all the female blade dancers we have already (especially because the Glade Captain is a kitbashed blade dancer as well).
    But whatever, we're getting so much content that i get over it.

    And dont get me started on the whole Legend thing with WE economy. He's literally the only single early-access dude that has said anything about it. Just him, notoriously a cheeser who constantly finds exploits he can use to insta-win his campaigns (got nothing wrong with him i enjoy some of his content once in a while). Bohoo he cant spam 300-range waywatchers stack to AFK his way to victory... big deal.
    There's actually a very well thought out post on reddit that theorycrafts with proper data (can't be bothered to look up) that compeletly debunks everything he said...




    Two legendary heroes still don't make it even, not to mention Ariel should have been FLC LL, and she doesn't fly. That being said, considering that it was meant to be the WE LP first and foremost(promotion of DLC for DLC format), CA could have ignored Ghoritch and give the WE a new unit in its place Controversial, I know, but the Skaven already got two top LPs.

    I want CA to give Zoats new models. They don't have identical morphology to Dragon Ogres, they have different legs structure and body mass, in TW:WH they look scrawny because of being a remodel.

    Great Stags are a remodel with some new animations. Grass sniffing animation for an example comes from a regular stag.

    We aren't really getting 'so much content', not to mention that quality>quantity.
    I mean, if we go by your standards, Skaven LPs:

    Jezzails - just rats with sniper rifles, reskin
    Ratling guns - just rats with machine guns, reskin
    Doomflayers - ok, a new model maybe, although potentially they took something from the doomwheel
    Poison wind mortars - rats with mortars, reskin
    Warp grinders - rats with drills, reskin
    Eshin triads - rats with pokey sticks, reskin
    Brood horror - new model
    Mutant rat ogre - just a big rat ogre, reskin
    Wolf rats - chaos warhound reskin

    (I don't think any of the above btw, just applying the same logic).

    Team Daemons of Chaos

    Team Skaven

    Team Orcs & Goblins

  • MaedrethnirMaedrethnir Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 9,805

    I find it baffling how people who are criticizing the quality of the units we are getting, completely glance over this tiny little detail: we are getting TWO legendary heroes who are on the same quality (if not arguably higher) of the two flagship LLs and are 100% part of the DLC.
    Ariel and Ghorritch are completely new models with completely new animations. The work what went in them is on-par if not even GREATER than the work that went into developing and modeling the two flagship LL's.
    These two LH are 100% part of this DLC (Kroak was FLC), and this has never happened in the past. Thus, its completely pointless to compare the "quality" of the units in this DLC with previous ones. There are no 1-to-1 comparable situations. Budgets are finite and limited. And CA decided, with what they could utilize budget-wise, to actually give us two additional completely new and unique Legendary lords. God it's so annoying being so hyped that we're getting 4 unique characters from the lore and then reading about people complaining that Zoats share Dragon Ogre animations...

    Also, as with every DLC, once again the age old discussion of reskin (Zoats) vs recolor (Stone Trolls). Zoats have completely unique textures and completely unique weapons (those are new models). What do you want CA to do? Come up with a set of unique and slightly different animations for quadruped centaur-like creatures holding 2-handed weapons essentially identical in morphology to Dragon Ogres? Of course thats not going to happen. They're inevitably going to share animations. Is it really that big of a deal? I'll agree that recolors are a bit cheap (really disliked the Stone Troll thing) but Zoats look great...
    Actually you know what, i bet they DO have unique animations, since they cast spells. So there you go.

    Great Stags are 100% new models with a brand new set of completely new animations, from idle to charge.

    Of course there's some things that i wish CA would have done slightly differently. I wish they would have gone for a male Spellweaver for example, who had an amazing TT model. Moreso, i wish they would have gone with male Bladesingers with their classic 4th ed. crazy red hair, to set them apart from all the female blade dancers we have already (especially because the Glade Captain is a kitbashed blade dancer as well).
    But whatever, we're getting so much content that i get over it.

    And dont get me started on the whole Legend thing with WE economy. He's literally the only single early-access dude that has said anything about it. Just him, notoriously a cheeser who constantly finds exploits he can use to insta-win his campaigns (got nothing wrong with him i enjoy some of his content once in a while). Bohoo he cant spam 300-range waywatchers stack to AFK his way to victory... big deal.
    There's actually a very well thought out post on reddit that theorycrafts with proper data (can't be bothered to look up) that compeletly debunks everything he said...




    Two legendary heroes still don't make it even, not to mention Ariel should have been FLC LL, and she doesn't fly. That being said, considering that it was meant to be the WE LP first and foremost(promotion of DLC for DLC format), CA could have ignored Ghoritch and give the WE a new unit in its place Controversial, I know, but the Skaven already got two top LPs.

    I want CA to give Zoats new models. They don't have identical morphology to Dragon Ogres, they have different legs structure and body mass, in TW:WH they look scrawny because of being a remodel.

    Great Stags are a remodel with some new animations. Grass sniffing animation for an example comes from a regular stag.

    We aren't really getting 'so much content', not to mention that quality>quantity.
    I mean, if we go by your standards, Skaven LPs:

    Jezzails - just rats with sniper rifles, reskin
    Ratling guns - just rats with machine guns, reskin
    Doomflayers - ok, a new model maybe, although potentially they took something from the doomwheel
    Poison wind mortars - rats with mortars, reskin
    Warp grinders - rats with drills, reskin
    Eshin triads - rats with pokey sticks, reskin
    Brood horror - new model
    Mutant rat ogre - just a big rat ogre, reskin
    Wolf rats - chaos warhound reskin

    (I don't think any of the above btw, just applying the same logic).
    I disagree that this is my line of reasoning.

    Jezzails - remodel with new animations
    Ratling Guns - remodel with new animations
    Doomflayers - new model with new animations
    Poison wind mortars - remodel with new animations
    Warp grinders - remodel with new animations
    Eshin Triads - I don't remember
    Brood Horror - maybe a new model, I'm not sure after Draxxy-chan noticed that it might be a rethemed Dread Saurian
    Mutant rat ogre - remodel
    Wolf rats - remodel

    Most of them are just rats, but they do have new animations that make them special.
    animacja-sygn-3.gif


  • MadDemiurgMadDemiurg Registered Users Posts: 3,405
    edited November 2020

    I find it baffling how people who are criticizing the quality of the units we are getting, completely glance over this tiny little detail: we are getting TWO legendary heroes who are on the same quality (if not arguably higher) of the two flagship LLs and are 100% part of the DLC.
    Ariel and Ghorritch are completely new models with completely new animations. The work what went in them is on-par if not even GREATER than the work that went into developing and modeling the two flagship LL's.
    These two LH are 100% part of this DLC (Kroak was FLC), and this has never happened in the past. Thus, its completely pointless to compare the "quality" of the units in this DLC with previous ones. There are no 1-to-1 comparable situations. Budgets are finite and limited. And CA decided, with what they could utilize budget-wise, to actually give us two additional completely new and unique Legendary lords. God it's so annoying being so hyped that we're getting 4 unique characters from the lore and then reading about people complaining that Zoats share Dragon Ogre animations...

    Also, as with every DLC, once again the age old discussion of reskin (Zoats) vs recolor (Stone Trolls). Zoats have completely unique textures and completely unique weapons (those are new models). What do you want CA to do? Come up with a set of unique and slightly different animations for quadruped centaur-like creatures holding 2-handed weapons essentially identical in morphology to Dragon Ogres? Of course thats not going to happen. They're inevitably going to share animations. Is it really that big of a deal? I'll agree that recolors are a bit cheap (really disliked the Stone Troll thing) but Zoats look great...
    Actually you know what, i bet they DO have unique animations, since they cast spells. So there you go.

    Great Stags are 100% new models with a brand new set of completely new animations, from idle to charge.

    Of course there's some things that i wish CA would have done slightly differently. I wish they would have gone for a male Spellweaver for example, who had an amazing TT model. Moreso, i wish they would have gone with male Bladesingers with their classic 4th ed. crazy red hair, to set them apart from all the female blade dancers we have already (especially because the Glade Captain is a kitbashed blade dancer as well).
    But whatever, we're getting so much content that i get over it.

    And dont get me started on the whole Legend thing with WE economy. He's literally the only single early-access dude that has said anything about it. Just him, notoriously a cheeser who constantly finds exploits he can use to insta-win his campaigns (got nothing wrong with him i enjoy some of his content once in a while). Bohoo he cant spam 300-range waywatchers stack to AFK his way to victory... big deal.
    There's actually a very well thought out post on reddit that theorycrafts with proper data (can't be bothered to look up) that compeletly debunks everything he said...




    Two legendary heroes still don't make it even, not to mention Ariel should have been FLC LL, and she doesn't fly. That being said, considering that it was meant to be the WE LP first and foremost(promotion of DLC for DLC format), CA could have ignored Ghoritch and give the WE a new unit in its place Controversial, I know, but the Skaven already got two top LPs.

    I want CA to give Zoats new models. They don't have identical morphology to Dragon Ogres, they have different legs structure and body mass, in TW:WH they look scrawny because of being a remodel.

    Great Stags are a remodel with some new animations. Grass sniffing animation for an example comes from a regular stag.

    We aren't really getting 'so much content', not to mention that quality>quantity.
    I mean, if we go by your standards, Skaven LPs:

    Jezzails - just rats with sniper rifles, reskin
    Ratling guns - just rats with machine guns, reskin
    Doomflayers - ok, a new model maybe, although potentially they took something from the doomwheel
    Poison wind mortars - rats with mortars, reskin
    Warp grinders - rats with drills, reskin
    Eshin triads - rats with pokey sticks, reskin
    Brood horror - new model
    Mutant rat ogre - just a big rat ogre, reskin
    Wolf rats - chaos warhound reskin

    (I don't think any of the above btw, just applying the same logic).
    I disagree that this is my line of reasoning.

    Jezzails - remodel with new animations
    Ratling Guns - remodel with new animations
    Doomflayers - new model with new animations
    Poison wind mortars - remodel with new animations
    Warp grinders - remodel with new animations
    Eshin Triads - I don't remember
    Brood Horror - maybe a new model, I'm not sure after Draxxy-chan noticed that it might be a rethemed Dread Saurian
    Mutant rat ogre - remodel
    Wolf rats - remodel

    Most of them are just rats, but they do have new animations that make them special.
    Then I don't see how Great Stags aren't a new model with new animations. And Zoats are at least a "remodel with new animations". I can agree that bladesingers were probably low effort cause they use the same dual swords as the wardancers but asset reuse isn't bad where it makes sense. Just making them different for the sake of difference doesn't make sense to me.

    Team Daemons of Chaos

    Team Skaven

    Team Orcs & Goblins

  • MaedrethnirMaedrethnir Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 9,805

    I find it baffling how people who are criticizing the quality of the units we are getting, completely glance over this tiny little detail: we are getting TWO legendary heroes who are on the same quality (if not arguably higher) of the two flagship LLs and are 100% part of the DLC.
    Ariel and Ghorritch are completely new models with completely new animations. The work what went in them is on-par if not even GREATER than the work that went into developing and modeling the two flagship LL's.
    These two LH are 100% part of this DLC (Kroak was FLC), and this has never happened in the past. Thus, its completely pointless to compare the "quality" of the units in this DLC with previous ones. There are no 1-to-1 comparable situations. Budgets are finite and limited. And CA decided, with what they could utilize budget-wise, to actually give us two additional completely new and unique Legendary lords. God it's so annoying being so hyped that we're getting 4 unique characters from the lore and then reading about people complaining that Zoats share Dragon Ogre animations...

    Also, as with every DLC, once again the age old discussion of reskin (Zoats) vs recolor (Stone Trolls). Zoats have completely unique textures and completely unique weapons (those are new models). What do you want CA to do? Come up with a set of unique and slightly different animations for quadruped centaur-like creatures holding 2-handed weapons essentially identical in morphology to Dragon Ogres? Of course thats not going to happen. They're inevitably going to share animations. Is it really that big of a deal? I'll agree that recolors are a bit cheap (really disliked the Stone Troll thing) but Zoats look great...
    Actually you know what, i bet they DO have unique animations, since they cast spells. So there you go.

    Great Stags are 100% new models with a brand new set of completely new animations, from idle to charge.

    Of course there's some things that i wish CA would have done slightly differently. I wish they would have gone for a male Spellweaver for example, who had an amazing TT model. Moreso, i wish they would have gone with male Bladesingers with their classic 4th ed. crazy red hair, to set them apart from all the female blade dancers we have already (especially because the Glade Captain is a kitbashed blade dancer as well).
    But whatever, we're getting so much content that i get over it.

    And dont get me started on the whole Legend thing with WE economy. He's literally the only single early-access dude that has said anything about it. Just him, notoriously a cheeser who constantly finds exploits he can use to insta-win his campaigns (got nothing wrong with him i enjoy some of his content once in a while). Bohoo he cant spam 300-range waywatchers stack to AFK his way to victory... big deal.
    There's actually a very well thought out post on reddit that theorycrafts with proper data (can't be bothered to look up) that compeletly debunks everything he said...




    Two legendary heroes still don't make it even, not to mention Ariel should have been FLC LL, and she doesn't fly. That being said, considering that it was meant to be the WE LP first and foremost(promotion of DLC for DLC format), CA could have ignored Ghoritch and give the WE a new unit in its place Controversial, I know, but the Skaven already got two top LPs.

    I want CA to give Zoats new models. They don't have identical morphology to Dragon Ogres, they have different legs structure and body mass, in TW:WH they look scrawny because of being a remodel.

    Great Stags are a remodel with some new animations. Grass sniffing animation for an example comes from a regular stag.

    We aren't really getting 'so much content', not to mention that quality>quantity.
    I mean, if we go by your standards, Skaven LPs:

    Jezzails - just rats with sniper rifles, reskin
    Ratling guns - just rats with machine guns, reskin
    Doomflayers - ok, a new model maybe, although potentially they took something from the doomwheel
    Poison wind mortars - rats with mortars, reskin
    Warp grinders - rats with drills, reskin
    Eshin triads - rats with pokey sticks, reskin
    Brood horror - new model
    Mutant rat ogre - just a big rat ogre, reskin
    Wolf rats - chaos warhound reskin

    (I don't think any of the above btw, just applying the same logic).
    I disagree that this is my line of reasoning.

    Jezzails - remodel with new animations
    Ratling Guns - remodel with new animations
    Doomflayers - new model with new animations
    Poison wind mortars - remodel with new animations
    Warp grinders - remodel with new animations
    Eshin Triads - I don't remember
    Brood Horror - maybe a new model, I'm not sure after Draxxy-chan noticed that it might be a rethemed Dread Saurian
    Mutant rat ogre - remodel
    Wolf rats - remodel

    Most of them are just rats, but they do have new animations that make them special.
    Then I don't see how Great Stags aren't a new model with new animations. And Zoats are at least a "remodel with new animations". I can agree that bladesingers were probably low effort cause they use the same dual swords as the wardancers but asset reuse isn't bad where it makes sense. Just making them different for the sake of difference doesn't make sense to me.
    Great Stag isn't a new model with new animations, it is a remodel with a mixed old and new animations, and I agree that it is majestic. I agree, I have said the very same thing in their defence on the first page of this thread. I just can't get over their scrawny looks. It would add flavourful variety, create a sense of amazement. Unique units simply better taste. For an example BoBB is awesome thanks to his appearance.
    animacja-sygn-3.gif


  • John_KimbleJohn_Kimble Registered Users Posts: 781

    I find it baffling how people who are criticizing the quality of the units we are getting, completely glance over this tiny little detail: we are getting TWO legendary heroes who are on the same quality (if not arguably higher) of the two flagship LLs and are 100% part of the DLC.
    Ariel and Ghorritch are completely new models with completely new animations. The work what went in them is on-par if not even GREATER than the work that went into developing and modeling the two flagship LL's.
    These two LH are 100% part of this DLC (Kroak was FLC), and this has never happened in the past. Thus, its completely pointless to compare the "quality" of the units in this DLC with previous ones. There are no 1-to-1 comparable situations. Budgets are finite and limited. And CA decided, with what they could utilize budget-wise, to actually give us two additional completely new and unique Legendary lords. God it's so annoying being so hyped that we're getting 4 unique characters from the lore and then reading about people complaining that Zoats share Dragon Ogre animations...

    Also, as with every DLC, once again the age old discussion of reskin (Zoats) vs recolor (Stone Trolls). Zoats have completely unique textures and completely unique weapons (those are new models). What do you want CA to do? Come up with a set of unique and slightly different animations for quadruped centaur-like creatures holding 2-handed weapons essentially identical in morphology to Dragon Ogres? Of course thats not going to happen. They're inevitably going to share animations. Is it really that big of a deal? I'll agree that recolors are a bit cheap (really disliked the Stone Troll thing) but Zoats look great...
    Actually you know what, i bet they DO have unique animations, since they cast spells. So there you go.

    Great Stags are 100% new models with a brand new set of completely new animations, from idle to charge.

    Of course there's some things that i wish CA would have done slightly differently. I wish they would have gone for a male Spellweaver for example, who had an amazing TT model. Moreso, i wish they would have gone with male Bladesingers with their classic 4th ed. crazy red hair, to set them apart from all the female blade dancers we have already (especially because the Glade Captain is a kitbashed blade dancer as well).
    But whatever, we're getting so much content that i get over it.

    And dont get me started on the whole Legend thing with WE economy. He's literally the only single early-access dude that has said anything about it. Just him, notoriously a cheeser who constantly finds exploits he can use to insta-win his campaigns (got nothing wrong with him i enjoy some of his content once in a while). Bohoo he cant spam 300-range waywatchers stack to AFK his way to victory... big deal.
    There's actually a very well thought out post on reddit that theorycrafts with proper data (can't be bothered to look up) that compeletly debunks everything he said...




    Two legendary heroes still don't make it even, not to mention Ariel should have been FLC LL, and she doesn't fly. That being said, considering that it was meant to be the WE LP first and foremost(promotion of DLC for DLC format), CA could have ignored Ghoritch and give the WE a new unit in its place Controversial, I know, but the Skaven already got two top LPs.

    I want CA to give Zoats new models. They don't have identical morphology to Dragon Ogres, they have different legs structure and body mass, in TW:WH they look scrawny because of being a remodel.

    Great Stags are a remodel with some new animations. Grass sniffing animation for an example comes from a regular stag.

    We aren't really getting 'so much content', not to mention that quality>quantity.
    I mean, if we go by your standards, Skaven LPs:

    Jezzails - just rats with sniper rifles, reskin
    Ratling guns - just rats with machine guns, reskin
    Doomflayers - ok, a new model maybe, although potentially they took something from the doomwheel
    Poison wind mortars - rats with mortars, reskin
    Warp grinders - rats with drills, reskin
    Eshin triads - rats with pokey sticks, reskin
    Brood horror - new model
    Mutant rat ogre - just a big rat ogre, reskin
    Wolf rats - chaos warhound reskin

    (I don't think any of the above btw, just applying the same logic).
    I disagree that this is my line of reasoning.

    Jezzails - remodel with new animations
    Ratling Guns - remodel with new animations
    Doomflayers - new model with new animations
    Poison wind mortars - remodel with new animations
    Warp grinders - remodel with new animations
    Eshin Triads - I don't remember
    Brood Horror - maybe a new model, I'm not sure after Draxxy-chan noticed that it might be a rethemed Dread Saurian
    Mutant rat ogre - remodel
    Wolf rats - remodel

    Most of them are just rats, but they do have new animations that make them special.
    Yea, no sorry. You cant say Ratling and Warp Grinders are a remodel when you say Zoat is just a reskin.
    Ratling teams and Warp Grinders are to Warp-fire throwers what Zoat is to Dragon Ogres.

    Ratlings and Warp Grinders: Warpfire Thrower skeleton, reskinned rats, new weapon models, couple of new animations.
    Zoats: Dragon Ogre skeleton, reskinned, new weapon model, couple of new animations (casting).

    Mutant Rat Ogre is absolutely not a remodel. Did you even see the screenshots? It's a glorified Rat Ogre, larger, same exact skeleton and model, and animations im willing to bet. Just reskinned with a couple of new warp-stone assets.

    Wolf rats are a remodel? Wolf rats will just be reskinned Warhounds, with exact animations. Its speculation since we havent seen anything in proper close-up motion, but yea.

    Guess we should define what a remodel is for you. Saying Mutant Rat Ogres, Wolf Rats, Ratlings and Warp Grinders are "remodels" and Zoats arent doesnt make any sense at all.

    Double standards much?
  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Registered Users Posts: 22,843
    I maintain my summary.
    Thanks CA for working with Epic Games to give us Troy for free!
  • NyxilisNyxilis Registered Users Posts: 4,221

    I find it baffling how people who are criticizing the quality of the units we are getting, completely glance over this tiny little detail: we are getting TWO legendary heroes who are on the same quality (if not arguably higher) of the two flagship LLs and are 100% part of the DLC.
    Ariel and Ghorritch are completely new models with completely new animations. The work what went in them is on-par if not even GREATER than the work that went into developing and modeling the two flagship LL's.
    These two LH are 100% part of this DLC (Kroak was FLC), and this has never happened in the past. Thus, its completely pointless to compare the "quality" of the units in this DLC with previous ones. There are no 1-to-1 comparable situations. Budgets are finite and limited. And CA decided, with what they could utilize budget-wise, to actually give us two additional completely new and unique Legendary lords. God it's so annoying being so hyped that we're getting 4 unique characters from the lore and then reading about people complaining that Zoats share Dragon Ogre animations...

    Also, as with every DLC, once again the age old discussion of reskin (Zoats) vs recolor (Stone Trolls). Zoats have completely unique textures and completely unique weapons (those are new models). What do you want CA to do? Come up with a set of unique and slightly different animations for quadruped centaur-like creatures holding 2-handed weapons essentially identical in morphology to Dragon Ogres? Of course thats not going to happen. They're inevitably going to share animations. Is it really that big of a deal? I'll agree that recolors are a bit cheap (really disliked the Stone Troll thing) but Zoats look great...
    Actually you know what, i bet they DO have unique animations, since they cast spells. So there you go.

    Great Stags are 100% new models with a brand new set of completely new animations, from idle to charge.

    Of course there's some things that i wish CA would have done slightly differently. I wish they would have gone for a male Spellweaver for example, who had an amazing TT model. Moreso, i wish they would have gone with male Bladesingers with their classic 4th ed. crazy red hair, to set them apart from all the female blade dancers we have already (especially because the Glade Captain is a kitbashed blade dancer as well).
    But whatever, we're getting so much content that i get over it.

    And dont get me started on the whole Legend thing with WE economy. He's literally the only single early-access dude that has said anything about it. Just him, notoriously a cheeser who constantly finds exploits he can use to insta-win his campaigns (got nothing wrong with him i enjoy some of his content once in a while). Bohoo he cant spam 300-range waywatchers stack to AFK his way to victory... big deal.
    There's actually a very well thought out post on reddit that theorycrafts with proper data (can't be bothered to look up) that compeletly debunks everything he said...




    Two legendary heroes still don't make it even, not to mention Ariel should have been FLC LL, and she doesn't fly. That being said, considering that it was meant to be the WE LP first and foremost(promotion of DLC for DLC format), CA could have ignored Ghoritch and give the WE a new unit in its place Controversial, I know, but the Skaven already got two top LPs.

    I want CA to give Zoats new models. They don't have identical morphology to Dragon Ogres, they have different legs structure and body mass, in TW:WH they look scrawny because of being a remodel.

    Great Stags are a remodel with some new animations. Grass sniffing animation for an example comes from a regular stag.

    We aren't really getting 'so much content', not to mention that quality>quantity.
    I mean, if we go by your standards, Skaven LPs:

    Jezzails - just rats with sniper rifles, reskin
    Ratling guns - just rats with machine guns, reskin
    Doomflayers - ok, a new model maybe, although potentially they took something from the doomwheel
    Poison wind mortars - rats with mortars, reskin
    Warp grinders - rats with drills, reskin
    Eshin triads - rats with pokey sticks, reskin
    Brood horror - new model
    Mutant rat ogre - just a big rat ogre, reskin
    Wolf rats - chaos warhound reskin

    (I don't think any of the above btw, just applying the same logic).
    I disagree that this is my line of reasoning.

    Jezzails - remodel with new animations
    Ratling Guns - remodel with new animations
    Doomflayers - new model with new animations
    Poison wind mortars - remodel with new animations
    Warp grinders - remodel with new animations
    Eshin Triads - I don't remember
    Brood Horror - maybe a new model, I'm not sure after Draxxy-chan noticed that it might be a rethemed Dread Saurian
    Mutant rat ogre - remodel
    Wolf rats - remodel

    Most of them are just rats, but they do have new animations that make them special.
    Yea, no sorry. You cant say Ratling and Warp Grinders are a remodel when you say Zoat is just a reskin.
    Ratling teams and Warp Grinders are to Warp-fire throwers what Zoat is to Dragon Ogres.

    Ratlings and Warp Grinders: Warpfire Thrower skeleton, reskinned rats, new weapon models, couple of new animations.
    Zoats: Dragon Ogre skeleton, reskinned, new weapon model, couple of new animations (casting).

    Mutant Rat Ogre is absolutely not a remodel. Did you even see the screenshots? It's a glorified Rat Ogre, larger, same exact skeleton and model, and animations im willing to bet. Just reskinned with a couple of new warp-stone assets.

    Wolf rats are a remodel? Wolf rats will just be reskinned Warhounds, with exact animations. Its speculation since we havent seen anything in proper close-up motion, but yea.

    Guess we should define what a remodel is for you. Saying Mutant Rat Ogres, Wolf Rats, Ratlings and Warp Grinders are "remodels" and Zoats arent doesnt make any sense at all.

    Double standards much?
    When a bias colors the statements. You'll never get an honest model discussion out of Maed.
  • MaedrethnirMaedrethnir Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 9,805
    edited November 2020

    I find it baffling how people who are criticizing the quality of the units we are getting, completely glance over this tiny little detail: we are getting TWO legendary heroes who are on the same quality (if not arguably higher) of the two flagship LLs and are 100% part of the DLC.
    Ariel and Ghorritch are completely new models with completely new animations. The work what went in them is on-par if not even GREATER than the work that went into developing and modeling the two flagship LL's.
    These two LH are 100% part of this DLC (Kroak was FLC), and this has never happened in the past. Thus, its completely pointless to compare the "quality" of the units in this DLC with previous ones. There are no 1-to-1 comparable situations. Budgets are finite and limited. And CA decided, with what they could utilize budget-wise, to actually give us two additional completely new and unique Legendary lords. God it's so annoying being so hyped that we're getting 4 unique characters from the lore and then reading about people complaining that Zoats share Dragon Ogre animations...

    Also, as with every DLC, once again the age old discussion of reskin (Zoats) vs recolor (Stone Trolls). Zoats have completely unique textures and completely unique weapons (those are new models). What do you want CA to do? Come up with a set of unique and slightly different animations for quadruped centaur-like creatures holding 2-handed weapons essentially identical in morphology to Dragon Ogres? Of course thats not going to happen. They're inevitably going to share animations. Is it really that big of a deal? I'll agree that recolors are a bit cheap (really disliked the Stone Troll thing) but Zoats look great...
    Actually you know what, i bet they DO have unique animations, since they cast spells. So there you go.

    Great Stags are 100% new models with a brand new set of completely new animations, from idle to charge.

    Of course there's some things that i wish CA would have done slightly differently. I wish they would have gone for a male Spellweaver for example, who had an amazing TT model. Moreso, i wish they would have gone with male Bladesingers with their classic 4th ed. crazy red hair, to set them apart from all the female blade dancers we have already (especially because the Glade Captain is a kitbashed blade dancer as well).
    But whatever, we're getting so much content that i get over it.

    And dont get me started on the whole Legend thing with WE economy. He's literally the only single early-access dude that has said anything about it. Just him, notoriously a cheeser who constantly finds exploits he can use to insta-win his campaigns (got nothing wrong with him i enjoy some of his content once in a while). Bohoo he cant spam 300-range waywatchers stack to AFK his way to victory... big deal.
    There's actually a very well thought out post on reddit that theorycrafts with proper data (can't be bothered to look up) that compeletly debunks everything he said...




    Two legendary heroes still don't make it even, not to mention Ariel should have been FLC LL, and she doesn't fly. That being said, considering that it was meant to be the WE LP first and foremost(promotion of DLC for DLC format), CA could have ignored Ghoritch and give the WE a new unit in its place Controversial, I know, but the Skaven already got two top LPs.

    I want CA to give Zoats new models. They don't have identical morphology to Dragon Ogres, they have different legs structure and body mass, in TW:WH they look scrawny because of being a remodel.

    Great Stags are a remodel with some new animations. Grass sniffing animation for an example comes from a regular stag.

    We aren't really getting 'so much content', not to mention that quality>quantity.
    I mean, if we go by your standards, Skaven LPs:

    Jezzails - just rats with sniper rifles, reskin
    Ratling guns - just rats with machine guns, reskin
    Doomflayers - ok, a new model maybe, although potentially they took something from the doomwheel
    Poison wind mortars - rats with mortars, reskin
    Warp grinders - rats with drills, reskin
    Eshin triads - rats with pokey sticks, reskin
    Brood horror - new model
    Mutant rat ogre - just a big rat ogre, reskin
    Wolf rats - chaos warhound reskin

    (I don't think any of the above btw, just applying the same logic).
    I disagree that this is my line of reasoning.

    Jezzails - remodel with new animations
    Ratling Guns - remodel with new animations
    Doomflayers - new model with new animations
    Poison wind mortars - remodel with new animations
    Warp grinders - remodel with new animations
    Eshin Triads - I don't remember
    Brood Horror - maybe a new model, I'm not sure after Draxxy-chan noticed that it might be a rethemed Dread Saurian
    Mutant rat ogre - remodel
    Wolf rats - remodel

    Most of them are just rats, but they do have new animations that make them special.
    Yea, no sorry. You cant say Ratling and Warp Grinders are a remodel when you say Zoat is just a reskin.
    Ratling teams and Warp Grinders are to Warp-fire throwers what Zoat is to Dragon Ogres.

    Ratlings and Warp Grinders: Warpfire Thrower skeleton, reskinned rats, new weapon models, couple of new animations.
    Zoats: Dragon Ogre skeleton, reskinned, new weapon model, couple of new animations (casting).

    Mutant Rat Ogre is absolutely not a remodel. Did you even see the screenshots? It's a glorified Rat Ogre, larger, same exact skeleton and model, and animations im willing to bet. Just reskinned with a couple of new warp-stone assets.

    Wolf rats are a remodel? Wolf rats will just be reskinned Warhounds, with exact animations. Its speculation since we havent seen anything in proper close-up motion, but yea.

    Guess we should define what a remodel is for you. Saying Mutant Rat Ogres, Wolf Rats, Ratlings and Warp Grinders are "remodels" and Zoats arent doesnt make any sense at all.

    Double standards much?
    When did I call Zoats as 'reskins'?

    Unlike rats Zoats do have their own unique models.

    Yes, it is a remodel, it has new assets.

    Yes, precisely, they are warhounds with rat heads, a remodel.
    Nyxilis said:

    I find it baffling how people who are criticizing the quality of the units we are getting, completely glance over this tiny little detail: we are getting TWO legendary heroes who are on the same quality (if not arguably higher) of the two flagship LLs and are 100% part of the DLC.
    Ariel and Ghorritch are completely new models with completely new animations. The work what went in them is on-par if not even GREATER than the work that went into developing and modeling the two flagship LL's.
    These two LH are 100% part of this DLC (Kroak was FLC), and this has never happened in the past. Thus, its completely pointless to compare the "quality" of the units in this DLC with previous ones. There are no 1-to-1 comparable situations. Budgets are finite and limited. And CA decided, with what they could utilize budget-wise, to actually give us two additional completely new and unique Legendary lords. God it's so annoying being so hyped that we're getting 4 unique characters from the lore and then reading about people complaining that Zoats share Dragon Ogre animations...

    Also, as with every DLC, once again the age old discussion of reskin (Zoats) vs recolor (Stone Trolls). Zoats have completely unique textures and completely unique weapons (those are new models). What do you want CA to do? Come up with a set of unique and slightly different animations for quadruped centaur-like creatures holding 2-handed weapons essentially identical in morphology to Dragon Ogres? Of course thats not going to happen. They're inevitably going to share animations. Is it really that big of a deal? I'll agree that recolors are a bit cheap (really disliked the Stone Troll thing) but Zoats look great...
    Actually you know what, i bet they DO have unique animations, since they cast spells. So there you go.

    Great Stags are 100% new models with a brand new set of completely new animations, from idle to charge.

    Of course there's some things that i wish CA would have done slightly differently. I wish they would have gone for a male Spellweaver for example, who had an amazing TT model. Moreso, i wish they would have gone with male Bladesingers with their classic 4th ed. crazy red hair, to set them apart from all the female blade dancers we have already (especially because the Glade Captain is a kitbashed blade dancer as well).
    But whatever, we're getting so much content that i get over it.

    And dont get me started on the whole Legend thing with WE economy. He's literally the only single early-access dude that has said anything about it. Just him, notoriously a cheeser who constantly finds exploits he can use to insta-win his campaigns (got nothing wrong with him i enjoy some of his content once in a while). Bohoo he cant spam 300-range waywatchers stack to AFK his way to victory... big deal.
    There's actually a very well thought out post on reddit that theorycrafts with proper data (can't be bothered to look up) that compeletly debunks everything he said...




    Two legendary heroes still don't make it even, not to mention Ariel should have been FLC LL, and she doesn't fly. That being said, considering that it was meant to be the WE LP first and foremost(promotion of DLC for DLC format), CA could have ignored Ghoritch and give the WE a new unit in its place Controversial, I know, but the Skaven already got two top LPs.

    I want CA to give Zoats new models. They don't have identical morphology to Dragon Ogres, they have different legs structure and body mass, in TW:WH they look scrawny because of being a remodel.

    Great Stags are a remodel with some new animations. Grass sniffing animation for an example comes from a regular stag.

    We aren't really getting 'so much content', not to mention that quality>quantity.
    I mean, if we go by your standards, Skaven LPs:

    Jezzails - just rats with sniper rifles, reskin
    Ratling guns - just rats with machine guns, reskin
    Doomflayers - ok, a new model maybe, although potentially they took something from the doomwheel
    Poison wind mortars - rats with mortars, reskin
    Warp grinders - rats with drills, reskin
    Eshin triads - rats with pokey sticks, reskin
    Brood horror - new model
    Mutant rat ogre - just a big rat ogre, reskin
    Wolf rats - chaos warhound reskin

    (I don't think any of the above btw, just applying the same logic).
    I disagree that this is my line of reasoning.

    Jezzails - remodel with new animations
    Ratling Guns - remodel with new animations
    Doomflayers - new model with new animations
    Poison wind mortars - remodel with new animations
    Warp grinders - remodel with new animations
    Eshin Triads - I don't remember
    Brood Horror - maybe a new model, I'm not sure after Draxxy-chan noticed that it might be a rethemed Dread Saurian
    Mutant rat ogre - remodel
    Wolf rats - remodel

    Most of them are just rats, but they do have new animations that make them special.
    Yea, no sorry. You cant say Ratling and Warp Grinders are a remodel when you say Zoat is just a reskin.
    Ratling teams and Warp Grinders are to Warp-fire throwers what Zoat is to Dragon Ogres.

    Ratlings and Warp Grinders: Warpfire Thrower skeleton, reskinned rats, new weapon models, couple of new animations.
    Zoats: Dragon Ogre skeleton, reskinned, new weapon model, couple of new animations (casting).

    Mutant Rat Ogre is absolutely not a remodel. Did you even see the screenshots? It's a glorified Rat Ogre, larger, same exact skeleton and model, and animations im willing to bet. Just reskinned with a couple of new warp-stone assets.

    Wolf rats are a remodel? Wolf rats will just be reskinned Warhounds, with exact animations. Its speculation since we havent seen anything in proper close-up motion, but yea.

    Guess we should define what a remodel is for you. Saying Mutant Rat Ogres, Wolf Rats, Ratlings and Warp Grinders are "remodels" and Zoats arent doesnt make any sense at all.

    Double standards much?
    When a bias colors the statements. You'll never get an honest model discussion out of Maed.
    I remember when someone said that Zoats can't be made as remodels.
    animacja-sygn-3.gif


  • John_KimbleJohn_Kimble Registered Users Posts: 781
    Alright fair enough. So what you're saying is that you wanted CA to redo Zoats entirely from scratch? As in, to model and entire quadruped-centaur skeleton from zero despite there being Dragon Ogres in the game right?
    That sounds to me like a whole lot of effort for nothing, since the end result is still a quadruped-centaur creature smashing a 2-handed weapon on the ground.
    I' would actually be on board with you if you were making this discussion about Bladesingers. Those could certainly have been made more unique. Ideally, for me, they should have been made male, with their classic old-school look with crazy red hair, and with unique male-blade dancer animations. That would have set them apart from the rest and made them stand out like something unique. Or even the Spellweaver, being made male with unique male-casting animations and what not.

    Zoats are perfectly fine as they are. Resources and budget is limited. Reassets HAVE to get reutilized and recycled all the time. If not, then we'd get half the content we usually get in Lord Packs. You wanted Zoats made entirely from scratch with 100% unique animations? Well then sure, thats cool! But then you cant complain if we loose Ariel, or if we got her as a really cheap reskin of a Spellweaver, and if Great Stags were just slightly bigger Wild Rider stags with nothing unique whatsoever about them.

    Whatever we get, is what we get. Want more quality in one thing? Then loose it in another. That's how it works.
  • MaedrethnirMaedrethnir Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 9,805

    Alright fair enough. So what you're saying is that you wanted CA to redo Zoats entirely from scratch? As in, to model and entire quadruped-centaur skeleton from zero despite there being Dragon Ogres in the game right?
    That sounds to me like a whole lot of effort for nothing, since the end result is still a quadruped-centaur creature smashing a 2-handed weapon on the ground.
    I' would actually be on board with you if you were making this discussion about Bladesingers. Those could certainly have been made more unique. Ideally, for me, they should have been made male, with their classic old-school look with crazy red hair, and with unique male-blade dancer animations. That would have set them apart from the rest and made them stand out like something unique. Or even the Spellweaver, being made male with unique male-casting animations and what not.

    Zoats are perfectly fine as they are. Resources and budget is limited. Reassets HAVE to get reutilized and recycled all the time. If not, then we'd get half the content we usually get in Lord Packs. You wanted Zoats made entirely from scratch with 100% unique animations? Well then sure, thats cool! But then you cant complain if we loose Ariel, or if we got her as a really cheap reskin of a Spellweaver, and if Great Stags were just slightly bigger Wild Rider stags with nothing unique whatsoever about them.

    Whatever we get, is what we get. Want more quality in one thing? Then loose it in another. That's how it works.

    Yes. That's not really true. Zoats and Dragon Ogres have different legs structure, their movements should be different which would also affect their fighting animations. Zoats also have bulkier bodies.





    Me too, I really wanted male Bladesinger and Spellweaver.

    I strongy disagree, because again, the GS side of the last LP shows that a few new models can be made, even if by sacrificing the other side of the LP.

    I expected more quality from the first ever DLC for DLC.
    animacja-sygn-3.gif


  • General_HijaltiGeneral_Hijalti Registered Users Posts: 2,106

    Laindesh said:

    Laindesh said:

    Zekerath said:

    In defence of Great Stag Knights and Zoats: both have new animations*, but yes, both are also remodels. It is especially visible on the Zoat model, it should be bulkier and its legs structure is all wrong - it is a Dragon Ogre in a cosplay after all.

    *idle and charge for GSK and casting animation for a Zoat(I don't remember Dragon Ogres and Shaggots having it, but I might be not-right)


    What pains me the most is the lack of Spites unit and Shadowdancer hero. The Sisters are air focused faction, yet there is not even one air unit in the LP. Bat sized Spites would add a lot to them, and to Drycha too.


    eomat said:

    I'm interested to see the extra stuff that they are adding if we own all the DLC and game. So far CA have not only managed to make a DLC but a full magnificent rework and add extra stuff to a Race that was pretty much considered complete.

    Personally the only thing I still want is the Shadowdancer and it looks like we won't get that.

    I think they are far from completed.

    H: Shadowdancer

    Units:
    1. Spites
    2. Meadow Chariots
    3. Hounds
    4. And the other animals, especially Wild Cats
    5. Laith-Kourn
    6. Naiads - I would prefer them for th Bretonnia, but they are a valid option

    Variants:
    1. Arrow variants
    2. Visually distinctive Dryad variants
    Seeing how the glade captain has skills named after Loec, and one skill in particular that seems to give them a dance not unlike what wardancers have and gives wardancers and bladesingers vanguard, I think CA has simply merged shadowdancer with the glade captain. And as I have said in another thread, I don't think wood elves particularly need another spellcaster hero, especially since branchwraiths have access to lore of shadow spells that would be fitting to shadowdancer (in that respect, shadowdancer has been split between branchwraith and glade captain).

    So as much as I'd love to see shadowdancers too, I'm not particularly holding my breath.
    If that's true then it is a mistake. Shadowdancers should come with dances and lore of shadows.



    - The units and generic heroes we're getting, love them or hate them, are mostly re-skins, even the Zoats seemingly.
    I would say it's in line with previous dlcs, Great stag models are great, Zoats do seem to use dragon ogre chasis but still look nice. I would only be disappointed if I had unrealistic expectations about this dlc surpassing all the previous ones.

    No, absolutely not. Let's look at P&W:

    LL: Grom - new animations

    H: Giant River Hag Troll - new animations beyond those used by River Trolls

    1. Snotling Pump Wagons - new model and new animations
    2. River Trolls - new model and new animations
    3. Rogue Idol - new model and new animations
    4. Stone Dragons - recolour

    This LP is the first ever DLC for DLC, it should convince customers that paying twice will be worth it. So far every WE unit is a remodel and the Sisters new mechanic appears to be extremely lacklustre in comparison to Throt's labolatory.

    It should be better than the best LP ever, but it is not. It is in fact worse than the GS side of the last LP.


    This is a good reasonable post with no bloodshed. But i disagree, if this is all Woodies have left to offer, they are doner than done.

    I must disagree. Most of these units would flesh out the forest spirit side of the WE.
    You do not need to own game one nor RotWE to play this DLC though. So no they don't have to put more effort into the twilight DLC than usual. (Also: Sisters, Ariel, Throt and Ghoritch all with new animations etc makes up for whats missing with units).

    Drycha and rework is where they have to prove its worth getting game 1 and RotWE for.
    Only on the Vortex map. Yes, they do have to put more effort into the Twilight DLC because they are selling the WE for the second time, it's a matter of business practice, treatment of those who already own the WE DLC. It was CA's golden opportunity to show their customers that paying twice is worth it. DLC for DLC is a controversial subject for a reason.
    " DLC for DLC is a controversial subject for a reason." I won't disagree on that.

    If sisters really is just vortex (if you dont have RotWE) then fair point.
    Personally the quality of the FLC and rework also plays in though and can make up for it to an extent.
    I don't know if their ME access requires RotWE but it for sure requires Game1.


    No, absolutely not. Let's look at P&W:

    LL: Grom - new animations

    H: Giant River Hag Troll - new animations beyond those used by River Trolls

    1. Snotling Pump Wagons - new model and new animations
    2. River Trolls - new model and new animations
    3. Rogue Idol - new model and new animations
    4. Stone Dragons - recolour

    This LP is the first ever DLC for DLC, it should convince customers that paying twice will be worth it. So far every WE unit is a remodel and the Sisters new mechanic appears to be extremely lacklustre in comparison to Throt's labolatory.

    It should be better than the best LP ever, but it is not. It is in fact worse than the GS side of the last LP.

    By these standards any non monster unit is not a new unit and should come for free, right? But WE are not a monster heavy faction. And humanoid units are not free to make. I'm pretty sure Empire fans would be super happy to get Knights of the White Wolf, Teutogen Guard or Warrior Priests of Ulrik, with no monstrous models attached.

    Bladesingers, Glade Captains, Spellweavers might or might not have new animations, we don't know that.

    Even then Sisters, Ariel, Great Stag mounts, Great Stag knights are completely new models with new animations and while Zoats do use Dragon Ogre chassis (you can argue about River Trolls also being just reskinned Trolls tbh) they do seem to have new animations. So on the unit side it seems close to me, of course who got the better deal is always subjective.

    I can sort of agree about lord mechanics (at least the effort that seemingly went into them) although I can't say I'm a fan of easy mode OP mechanics and hope Throt's lab is not an "I win" button. To me the more important part about the new lords are how fun they are to play and how different they are to other lords of the faction in terms of playstyle (and also preferably that they are challenging). We don't know that about sisters yet.

    WE did get a ton of core mechanics changes though.
    Non monster units too can get new animations and models. For an example Spellweaver and Bladesinger could have been male characters. The WE are Elf/Forest Spirit faction and they don't have many forest spirits.

    From what I have seen, I doubt it.

    LLs are given to receive new animations, or at least that should be the case. Great Stag Knights do have new animations yes, but not all of them are new, and it is not a new model. Yes, Zoats have spell casting animation, that being said they should have been new models in order to look good, they don't look like Zoats proper. River Trolls might use the same rig but their animations are fresh. I don't think it is subjective at all.

    I don't know about easy, but Throt's lab appears to be interactive, and to offer replayability. It's simply fun at first glance.

    Eh, their new mechanics are decent but pretty lacklustre. The Weave, seasons and wild hunts have not been expanded, and offices remain the same. I would say that the Empire rework was better.
    Great stags have more new animations than you think, completely new ideal animations, new charge animations, and attack animations and likely more. Pretty sure I saw what looked like a sync kill of it Smashing some guy into the floor with its antlers.
    Great stags are a least semi new model at least, it's a different shape to the current stags in the game, and I am not just talking about size look at its head and neck.

    As for Zoats we haven't seen enough of them to judge yet, sure they are a remodel of the dragon ogres, but they could still have a lot of new animations.
  • MaedrethnirMaedrethnir Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 9,805
    edited November 2020

    Laindesh said:

    Laindesh said:

    Zekerath said:

    In defence of Great Stag Knights and Zoats: both have new animations*, but yes, both are also remodels. It is especially visible on the Zoat model, it should be bulkier and its legs structure is all wrong - it is a Dragon Ogre in a cosplay after all.

    *idle and charge for GSK and casting animation for a Zoat(I don't remember Dragon Ogres and Shaggots having it, but I might be not-right)


    What pains me the most is the lack of Spites unit and Shadowdancer hero. The Sisters are air focused faction, yet there is not even one air unit in the LP. Bat sized Spites would add a lot to them, and to Drycha too.


    eomat said:

    I'm interested to see the extra stuff that they are adding if we own all the DLC and game. So far CA have not only managed to make a DLC but a full magnificent rework and add extra stuff to a Race that was pretty much considered complete.

    Personally the only thing I still want is the Shadowdancer and it looks like we won't get that.

    I think they are far from completed.

    H: Shadowdancer

    Units:
    1. Spites
    2. Meadow Chariots
    3. Hounds
    4. And the other animals, especially Wild Cats
    5. Laith-Kourn
    6. Naiads - I would prefer them for th Bretonnia, but they are a valid option

    Variants:
    1. Arrow variants
    2. Visually distinctive Dryad variants
    Seeing how the glade captain has skills named after Loec, and one skill in particular that seems to give them a dance not unlike what wardancers have and gives wardancers and bladesingers vanguard, I think CA has simply merged shadowdancer with the glade captain. And as I have said in another thread, I don't think wood elves particularly need another spellcaster hero, especially since branchwraiths have access to lore of shadow spells that would be fitting to shadowdancer (in that respect, shadowdancer has been split between branchwraith and glade captain).

    So as much as I'd love to see shadowdancers too, I'm not particularly holding my breath.
    If that's true then it is a mistake. Shadowdancers should come with dances and lore of shadows.



    - The units and generic heroes we're getting, love them or hate them, are mostly re-skins, even the Zoats seemingly.
    I would say it's in line with previous dlcs, Great stag models are great, Zoats do seem to use dragon ogre chasis but still look nice. I would only be disappointed if I had unrealistic expectations about this dlc surpassing all the previous ones.

    No, absolutely not. Let's look at P&W:

    LL: Grom - new animations

    H: Giant River Hag Troll - new animations beyond those used by River Trolls

    1. Snotling Pump Wagons - new model and new animations
    2. River Trolls - new model and new animations
    3. Rogue Idol - new model and new animations
    4. Stone Dragons - recolour

    This LP is the first ever DLC for DLC, it should convince customers that paying twice will be worth it. So far every WE unit is a remodel and the Sisters new mechanic appears to be extremely lacklustre in comparison to Throt's labolatory.

    It should be better than the best LP ever, but it is not. It is in fact worse than the GS side of the last LP.


    This is a good reasonable post with no bloodshed. But i disagree, if this is all Woodies have left to offer, they are doner than done.

    I must disagree. Most of these units would flesh out the forest spirit side of the WE.
    You do not need to own game one nor RotWE to play this DLC though. So no they don't have to put more effort into the twilight DLC than usual. (Also: Sisters, Ariel, Throt and Ghoritch all with new animations etc makes up for whats missing with units).

    Drycha and rework is where they have to prove its worth getting game 1 and RotWE for.
    Only on the Vortex map. Yes, they do have to put more effort into the Twilight DLC because they are selling the WE for the second time, it's a matter of business practice, treatment of those who already own the WE DLC. It was CA's golden opportunity to show their customers that paying twice is worth it. DLC for DLC is a controversial subject for a reason.
    " DLC for DLC is a controversial subject for a reason." I won't disagree on that.

    If sisters really is just vortex (if you dont have RotWE) then fair point.
    Personally the quality of the FLC and rework also plays in though and can make up for it to an extent.
    I don't know if their ME access requires RotWE but it for sure requires Game1.


    No, absolutely not. Let's look at P&W:

    LL: Grom - new animations

    H: Giant River Hag Troll - new animations beyond those used by River Trolls

    1. Snotling Pump Wagons - new model and new animations
    2. River Trolls - new model and new animations
    3. Rogue Idol - new model and new animations
    4. Stone Dragons - recolour

    This LP is the first ever DLC for DLC, it should convince customers that paying twice will be worth it. So far every WE unit is a remodel and the Sisters new mechanic appears to be extremely lacklustre in comparison to Throt's labolatory.

    It should be better than the best LP ever, but it is not. It is in fact worse than the GS side of the last LP.

    By these standards any non monster unit is not a new unit and should come for free, right? But WE are not a monster heavy faction. And humanoid units are not free to make. I'm pretty sure Empire fans would be super happy to get Knights of the White Wolf, Teutogen Guard or Warrior Priests of Ulrik, with no monstrous models attached.

    Bladesingers, Glade Captains, Spellweavers might or might not have new animations, we don't know that.

    Even then Sisters, Ariel, Great Stag mounts, Great Stag knights are completely new models with new animations and while Zoats do use Dragon Ogre chassis (you can argue about River Trolls also being just reskinned Trolls tbh) they do seem to have new animations. So on the unit side it seems close to me, of course who got the better deal is always subjective.

    I can sort of agree about lord mechanics (at least the effort that seemingly went into them) although I can't say I'm a fan of easy mode OP mechanics and hope Throt's lab is not an "I win" button. To me the more important part about the new lords are how fun they are to play and how different they are to other lords of the faction in terms of playstyle (and also preferably that they are challenging). We don't know that about sisters yet.

    WE did get a ton of core mechanics changes though.
    Non monster units too can get new animations and models. For an example Spellweaver and Bladesinger could have been male characters. The WE are Elf/Forest Spirit faction and they don't have many forest spirits.

    From what I have seen, I doubt it.

    LLs are given to receive new animations, or at least that should be the case. Great Stag Knights do have new animations yes, but not all of them are new, and it is not a new model. Yes, Zoats have spell casting animation, that being said they should have been new models in order to look good, they don't look like Zoats proper. River Trolls might use the same rig but their animations are fresh. I don't think it is subjective at all.

    I don't know about easy, but Throt's lab appears to be interactive, and to offer replayability. It's simply fun at first glance.

    Eh, their new mechanics are decent but pretty lacklustre. The Weave, seasons and wild hunts have not been expanded, and offices remain the same. I would say that the Empire rework was better.
    Great stags have more new animations than you think, completely new ideal animations, new charge animations, and attack animations and likely more. Pretty sure I saw what looked like a sync kill of it Smashing some guy into the floor with its antlers.
    Great stags are a least semi new model at least, it's a different shape to the current stags in the game, and I am not just talking about size look at its head and neck.

    As for Zoats we haven't seen enough of them to judge yet, sure they are a remodel of the dragon ogres, but they could still have a lot of new animations.
    I haven't said that they don't have new animations, only that old ones also were used for them. I know, they look pretty great.

    I think that Zoats do have some new animations.
    animacja-sygn-3.gif


  • NyxilisNyxilis Registered Users Posts: 4,221

    Laindesh said:

    Laindesh said:

    Zekerath said:

    In defence of Great Stag Knights and Zoats: both have new animations*, but yes, both are also remodels. It is especially visible on the Zoat model, it should be bulkier and its legs structure is all wrong - it is a Dragon Ogre in a cosplay after all.

    *idle and charge for GSK and casting animation for a Zoat(I don't remember Dragon Ogres and Shaggots having it, but I might be not-right)


    What pains me the most is the lack of Spites unit and Shadowdancer hero. The Sisters are air focused faction, yet there is not even one air unit in the LP. Bat sized Spites would add a lot to them, and to Drycha too.


    eomat said:

    I'm interested to see the extra stuff that they are adding if we own all the DLC and game. So far CA have not only managed to make a DLC but a full magnificent rework and add extra stuff to a Race that was pretty much considered complete.

    Personally the only thing I still want is the Shadowdancer and it looks like we won't get that.

    I think they are far from completed.

    H: Shadowdancer

    Units:
    1. Spites
    2. Meadow Chariots
    3. Hounds
    4. And the other animals, especially Wild Cats
    5. Laith-Kourn
    6. Naiads - I would prefer them for th Bretonnia, but they are a valid option

    Variants:
    1. Arrow variants
    2. Visually distinctive Dryad variants
    Seeing how the glade captain has skills named after Loec, and one skill in particular that seems to give them a dance not unlike what wardancers have and gives wardancers and bladesingers vanguard, I think CA has simply merged shadowdancer with the glade captain. And as I have said in another thread, I don't think wood elves particularly need another spellcaster hero, especially since branchwraiths have access to lore of shadow spells that would be fitting to shadowdancer (in that respect, shadowdancer has been split between branchwraith and glade captain).

    So as much as I'd love to see shadowdancers too, I'm not particularly holding my breath.
    If that's true then it is a mistake. Shadowdancers should come with dances and lore of shadows.



    - The units and generic heroes we're getting, love them or hate them, are mostly re-skins, even the Zoats seemingly.
    I would say it's in line with previous dlcs, Great stag models are great, Zoats do seem to use dragon ogre chasis but still look nice. I would only be disappointed if I had unrealistic expectations about this dlc surpassing all the previous ones.

    No, absolutely not. Let's look at P&W:

    LL: Grom - new animations

    H: Giant River Hag Troll - new animations beyond those used by River Trolls

    1. Snotling Pump Wagons - new model and new animations
    2. River Trolls - new model and new animations
    3. Rogue Idol - new model and new animations
    4. Stone Dragons - recolour

    This LP is the first ever DLC for DLC, it should convince customers that paying twice will be worth it. So far every WE unit is a remodel and the Sisters new mechanic appears to be extremely lacklustre in comparison to Throt's labolatory.

    It should be better than the best LP ever, but it is not. It is in fact worse than the GS side of the last LP.


    This is a good reasonable post with no bloodshed. But i disagree, if this is all Woodies have left to offer, they are doner than done.

    I must disagree. Most of these units would flesh out the forest spirit side of the WE.
    You do not need to own game one nor RotWE to play this DLC though. So no they don't have to put more effort into the twilight DLC than usual. (Also: Sisters, Ariel, Throt and Ghoritch all with new animations etc makes up for whats missing with units).

    Drycha and rework is where they have to prove its worth getting game 1 and RotWE for.
    Only on the Vortex map. Yes, they do have to put more effort into the Twilight DLC because they are selling the WE for the second time, it's a matter of business practice, treatment of those who already own the WE DLC. It was CA's golden opportunity to show their customers that paying twice is worth it. DLC for DLC is a controversial subject for a reason.
    " DLC for DLC is a controversial subject for a reason." I won't disagree on that.

    If sisters really is just vortex (if you dont have RotWE) then fair point.
    Personally the quality of the FLC and rework also plays in though and can make up for it to an extent.
    I don't know if their ME access requires RotWE but it for sure requires Game1.


    No, absolutely not. Let's look at P&W:

    LL: Grom - new animations

    H: Giant River Hag Troll - new animations beyond those used by River Trolls

    1. Snotling Pump Wagons - new model and new animations
    2. River Trolls - new model and new animations
    3. Rogue Idol - new model and new animations
    4. Stone Dragons - recolour

    This LP is the first ever DLC for DLC, it should convince customers that paying twice will be worth it. So far every WE unit is a remodel and the Sisters new mechanic appears to be extremely lacklustre in comparison to Throt's labolatory.

    It should be better than the best LP ever, but it is not. It is in fact worse than the GS side of the last LP.

    By these standards any non monster unit is not a new unit and should come for free, right? But WE are not a monster heavy faction. And humanoid units are not free to make. I'm pretty sure Empire fans would be super happy to get Knights of the White Wolf, Teutogen Guard or Warrior Priests of Ulrik, with no monstrous models attached.

    Bladesingers, Glade Captains, Spellweavers might or might not have new animations, we don't know that.

    Even then Sisters, Ariel, Great Stag mounts, Great Stag knights are completely new models with new animations and while Zoats do use Dragon Ogre chassis (you can argue about River Trolls also being just reskinned Trolls tbh) they do seem to have new animations. So on the unit side it seems close to me, of course who got the better deal is always subjective.

    I can sort of agree about lord mechanics (at least the effort that seemingly went into them) although I can't say I'm a fan of easy mode OP mechanics and hope Throt's lab is not an "I win" button. To me the more important part about the new lords are how fun they are to play and how different they are to other lords of the faction in terms of playstyle (and also preferably that they are challenging). We don't know that about sisters yet.

    WE did get a ton of core mechanics changes though.
    Non monster units too can get new animations and models. For an example Spellweaver and Bladesinger could have been male characters. The WE are Elf/Forest Spirit faction and they don't have many forest spirits.

    From what I have seen, I doubt it.

    LLs are given to receive new animations, or at least that should be the case. Great Stag Knights do have new animations yes, but not all of them are new, and it is not a new model. Yes, Zoats have spell casting animation, that being said they should have been new models in order to look good, they don't look like Zoats proper. River Trolls might use the same rig but their animations are fresh. I don't think it is subjective at all.

    I don't know about easy, but Throt's lab appears to be interactive, and to offer replayability. It's simply fun at first glance.

    Eh, their new mechanics are decent but pretty lacklustre. The Weave, seasons and wild hunts have not been expanded, and offices remain the same. I would say that the Empire rework was better.
    Great stags have more new animations than you think, completely new ideal animations, new charge animations, and attack animations and likely more. Pretty sure I saw what looked like a sync kill of it Smashing some guy into the floor with its antlers.
    Great stags are a least semi new model at least, it's a different shape to the current stags in the game, and I am not just talking about size look at its head and neck.

    As for Zoats we haven't seen enough of them to judge yet, sure they are a remodel of the dragon ogres, but they could still have a lot of new animations.
    I haven't said that they don't have new animations, only that old ones also were used for them. I know, they look pretty great.

    I think that Zoats do have some new animations.
    There is no think about it. Their casters, dragon ogres were not.
  • MaedrethnirMaedrethnir Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 9,805
    Nyxilis said:

    Laindesh said:

    Laindesh said:

    Zekerath said:

    In defence of Great Stag Knights and Zoats: both have new animations*, but yes, both are also remodels. It is especially visible on the Zoat model, it should be bulkier and its legs structure is all wrong - it is a Dragon Ogre in a cosplay after all.

    *idle and charge for GSK and casting animation for a Zoat(I don't remember Dragon Ogres and Shaggots having it, but I might be not-right)


    What pains me the most is the lack of Spites unit and Shadowdancer hero. The Sisters are air focused faction, yet there is not even one air unit in the LP. Bat sized Spites would add a lot to them, and to Drycha too.


    eomat said:

    I'm interested to see the extra stuff that they are adding if we own all the DLC and game. So far CA have not only managed to make a DLC but a full magnificent rework and add extra stuff to a Race that was pretty much considered complete.

    Personally the only thing I still want is the Shadowdancer and it looks like we won't get that.

    I think they are far from completed.

    H: Shadowdancer

    Units:
    1. Spites
    2. Meadow Chariots
    3. Hounds
    4. And the other animals, especially Wild Cats
    5. Laith-Kourn
    6. Naiads - I would prefer them for th Bretonnia, but they are a valid option

    Variants:
    1. Arrow variants
    2. Visually distinctive Dryad variants
    Seeing how the glade captain has skills named after Loec, and one skill in particular that seems to give them a dance not unlike what wardancers have and gives wardancers and bladesingers vanguard, I think CA has simply merged shadowdancer with the glade captain. And as I have said in another thread, I don't think wood elves particularly need another spellcaster hero, especially since branchwraiths have access to lore of shadow spells that would be fitting to shadowdancer (in that respect, shadowdancer has been split between branchwraith and glade captain).

    So as much as I'd love to see shadowdancers too, I'm not particularly holding my breath.
    If that's true then it is a mistake. Shadowdancers should come with dances and lore of shadows.



    - The units and generic heroes we're getting, love them or hate them, are mostly re-skins, even the Zoats seemingly.
    I would say it's in line with previous dlcs, Great stag models are great, Zoats do seem to use dragon ogre chasis but still look nice. I would only be disappointed if I had unrealistic expectations about this dlc surpassing all the previous ones.

    No, absolutely not. Let's look at P&W:

    LL: Grom - new animations

    H: Giant River Hag Troll - new animations beyond those used by River Trolls

    1. Snotling Pump Wagons - new model and new animations
    2. River Trolls - new model and new animations
    3. Rogue Idol - new model and new animations
    4. Stone Dragons - recolour

    This LP is the first ever DLC for DLC, it should convince customers that paying twice will be worth it. So far every WE unit is a remodel and the Sisters new mechanic appears to be extremely lacklustre in comparison to Throt's labolatory.

    It should be better than the best LP ever, but it is not. It is in fact worse than the GS side of the last LP.


    This is a good reasonable post with no bloodshed. But i disagree, if this is all Woodies have left to offer, they are doner than done.

    I must disagree. Most of these units would flesh out the forest spirit side of the WE.
    You do not need to own game one nor RotWE to play this DLC though. So no they don't have to put more effort into the twilight DLC than usual. (Also: Sisters, Ariel, Throt and Ghoritch all with new animations etc makes up for whats missing with units).

    Drycha and rework is where they have to prove its worth getting game 1 and RotWE for.
    Only on the Vortex map. Yes, they do have to put more effort into the Twilight DLC because they are selling the WE for the second time, it's a matter of business practice, treatment of those who already own the WE DLC. It was CA's golden opportunity to show their customers that paying twice is worth it. DLC for DLC is a controversial subject for a reason.
    " DLC for DLC is a controversial subject for a reason." I won't disagree on that.

    If sisters really is just vortex (if you dont have RotWE) then fair point.
    Personally the quality of the FLC and rework also plays in though and can make up for it to an extent.
    I don't know if their ME access requires RotWE but it for sure requires Game1.


    No, absolutely not. Let's look at P&W:

    LL: Grom - new animations

    H: Giant River Hag Troll - new animations beyond those used by River Trolls

    1. Snotling Pump Wagons - new model and new animations
    2. River Trolls - new model and new animations
    3. Rogue Idol - new model and new animations
    4. Stone Dragons - recolour

    This LP is the first ever DLC for DLC, it should convince customers that paying twice will be worth it. So far every WE unit is a remodel and the Sisters new mechanic appears to be extremely lacklustre in comparison to Throt's labolatory.

    It should be better than the best LP ever, but it is not. It is in fact worse than the GS side of the last LP.

    By these standards any non monster unit is not a new unit and should come for free, right? But WE are not a monster heavy faction. And humanoid units are not free to make. I'm pretty sure Empire fans would be super happy to get Knights of the White Wolf, Teutogen Guard or Warrior Priests of Ulrik, with no monstrous models attached.

    Bladesingers, Glade Captains, Spellweavers might or might not have new animations, we don't know that.

    Even then Sisters, Ariel, Great Stag mounts, Great Stag knights are completely new models with new animations and while Zoats do use Dragon Ogre chassis (you can argue about River Trolls also being just reskinned Trolls tbh) they do seem to have new animations. So on the unit side it seems close to me, of course who got the better deal is always subjective.

    I can sort of agree about lord mechanics (at least the effort that seemingly went into them) although I can't say I'm a fan of easy mode OP mechanics and hope Throt's lab is not an "I win" button. To me the more important part about the new lords are how fun they are to play and how different they are to other lords of the faction in terms of playstyle (and also preferably that they are challenging). We don't know that about sisters yet.

    WE did get a ton of core mechanics changes though.
    Non monster units too can get new animations and models. For an example Spellweaver and Bladesinger could have been male characters. The WE are Elf/Forest Spirit faction and they don't have many forest spirits.

    From what I have seen, I doubt it.

    LLs are given to receive new animations, or at least that should be the case. Great Stag Knights do have new animations yes, but not all of them are new, and it is not a new model. Yes, Zoats have spell casting animation, that being said they should have been new models in order to look good, they don't look like Zoats proper. River Trolls might use the same rig but their animations are fresh. I don't think it is subjective at all.

    I don't know about easy, but Throt's lab appears to be interactive, and to offer replayability. It's simply fun at first glance.

    Eh, their new mechanics are decent but pretty lacklustre. The Weave, seasons and wild hunts have not been expanded, and offices remain the same. I would say that the Empire rework was better.
    Great stags have more new animations than you think, completely new ideal animations, new charge animations, and attack animations and likely more. Pretty sure I saw what looked like a sync kill of it Smashing some guy into the floor with its antlers.
    Great stags are a least semi new model at least, it's a different shape to the current stags in the game, and I am not just talking about size look at its head and neck.

    As for Zoats we haven't seen enough of them to judge yet, sure they are a remodel of the dragon ogres, but they could still have a lot of new animations.
    I haven't said that they don't have new animations, only that old ones also were used for them. I know, they look pretty great.

    I think that Zoats do have some new animations.
    There is no think about it. Their casters, dragon ogres were not.
    So far only one new animation has been confirmed, that's why I have said 'think' in the context of 'animations'.


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