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Bladesingers' HP

outrage4outrage4 master engineerRegistered Users Posts: 416
Bladesingers' stats looked reasonable overall and i did not share the concern with other people who thought this unit is too strong.

Usually such unit(s elite unarmored inf) are being held back by being generally easy to eliminate with spells, missiles, cav charges.

Then i looked at their HP wich is 6300 in QB settings and i thought that this unit doesn't not exactly share these weaknesses with units like wardancers(5100 hp), witch elves(4875 hp), sisters of slauther (5625). Such HP difference is pretty insane and it will greatly increase their surviveablity and will make them perform better in melee compared to those units. Important to note that the more HP such units have the more the benefit from physical resistance.

So bladesingers are the infantry with the most HP in WE roster on par with WWR who also have 25 more armor. And in many cases bladesingers even going to be tankier due to that phys res and 8 speed difference.

Here are some other examples of HP on elf and non elf units to get the picture: White lions (5625),silverin guard (6120) Swordmasters(6300),Phoenix guard (6300),execs(6300), Chaos warriors(6750),Foot squers(6210),Giant Slayers(6480)

So unless all infantry units got HP buff in the new patch i believe bladesingers should not have 6300 HP.
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Comments

  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 8,361
    Whats their resist value, stronger than dancers or equal
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  • outrage4outrage4 master engineerRegistered Users Posts: 416
    yst said:

    Whats their resist value, stronger than dancers or equal

    20%, same as dancers
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 7,002
    Guys.... one burning head. Seriously.
  • innerpinnerp Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 909
    eumaies said:

    Guys.... two skaven slave slingers. Seriously.

  • Loupi_Loupi_ Registered Users Posts: 2,264
    lol guys its the same as other elite elf infantry, WWR, sword masters etc, i.e. its still low HP on no-armour unit.
  • Loupi_Loupi_ Registered Users Posts: 2,264
    edited November 2020
    eumaies said:

    Guys.... one burning head. Seriously.

    it really surprises me that bladesingers of all things are getting all this crying. I suspect that zerkovich "test" has something to do with it.
  • PocmanPocman Registered Users Posts: 4,059
    It's the same HP value as every elite elven infantry, 84 per model, except sisters (slightly lower) and black guard (90).

    It's still very low HP, specially compared to elites in any other army (except depth guard, lol).




  • mightygloinmightygloin Karaz-a-KarakRegistered Users Posts: 3,624
    So these beautiful ladies are tougher than Giant Slayers. Totally loreful i guess :p
  • NightOfTheDeadNightOfTheDead Member Registered Users Posts: 678
    eumaies said:

    Guys.... one burning head. Seriously.

    This is so reductionist. Surely there must be some other indicators how we compare and evaluate units. Sisters of slaughter, silverin guard threads, i remember, were getting a lot more effort put into them.

    Phoenix guard, one burning head.
    Tomb guard, one burning head.
    Skaven slaves, one burning head.

    that is not an indicator. Not saying they need nerfs, not at least for now, but they definitely seem very good.
  • SarmatiannsSarmatianns Registered Users Posts: 4,498
    edited November 2020

    So these beautiful ladies are tougher than Giant Slayers. Totally loreful i guess :p

    How are they tougher than Giant Slayers when they have 84 HP, while Giant Slayers have 108?

    They are more beautiful than Giant Slayers, I'll give you that.
  • Loupi_Loupi_ Registered Users Posts: 2,264

    So these beautiful ladies are tougher than Giant Slayers. Totally loreful i guess :p

    How are they tougher than Giant Slayers when they have 84 HP, while Giant Slayers have 108?
    oopsy
  • y4g3ry4g3r Registered Users Posts: 371
    I'll give him a benefit of the doubt and say with a 20% physical resist and 15 armour they might be equal to giant slayers?...
  • WojmirVonCarsteinWojmirVonCarstein Registered Users Posts: 1,224

    So these beautiful ladies are tougher than Giant Slayers. Totally loreful i guess :p

    How are they tougher than Giant Slayers when they have 84 HP, while Giant Slayers have 108?

    They are more beautiful than Giant Slayers, I'll give you that.
    Let's not discriminate here and define beauty too narrowly. Giant Slayers can be beautiful as well.
  • SarmatiannsSarmatianns Registered Users Posts: 4,498

    So these beautiful ladies are tougher than Giant Slayers. Totally loreful i guess :p

    How are they tougher than Giant Slayers when they have 84 HP, while Giant Slayers have 108?

    They are more beautiful than Giant Slayers, I'll give you that.
    Let's not discriminate here and define beauty too narrowly. Giant Slayers can be beautiful as well.
    I'm a shallow bastard. I only see outer physical beauty.
  • turrehundturrehund Registered Users Posts: 282
    I have a hard time believing that a unit that can be hard countered by some of the cheapest units in the game while costing 1200 will be OP.
  • vizareshvizaresh Registered Users Posts: 161
    eumaies said:

    Guys.... one burning head. Seriously.

    the issue is that other units who get destroyed by one burning head and have relatively the same cost can't do
    what these ladies do. so until units like sisters of slather exist these blade dancers need nerf or others like SoS needs a buff.

    easy concept :)

  • Loupi_Loupi_ Registered Users Posts: 2,264
    edited November 2020
    vizaresh said:

    eumaies said:

    Guys.... one burning head. Seriously.

    the issue is that other units who get destroyed by one burning head and have relatively the same cost can't do
    what these ladies do. so until units like sisters of slather exist these blade dancers need nerf or others like SoS needs a buff.

    easy concept :)

    well firstly you have no idea what bladesingers can do, the DLC hasnt released yet and only thing people have seen is some wonky badly done tests.

    Secondly yeah sisters need a little buffing after all the nerfs they got patch after patch.
  • PocmanPocman Registered Users Posts: 4,059
    vizaresh said:

    eumaies said:

    Guys.... one burning head. Seriously.

    the issue is that other units who get destroyed by one burning head and have relatively the same cost can't do
    what these ladies do. so until units like sisters of slather exist these blade dancers need nerf or others like SoS needs a buff.

    easy concept :)

    Agree that sisters need buffs. They were okay at release and were nerfed without reasaon because people thought they outperformed v chaff.

    Having said that, They do have the advantage in base MA and MD, poison and shields and cost 100 less. The real problem with them is that they are super bugged.

  • PocmanPocman Registered Users Posts: 4,059

    So these beautiful ladies are tougher than Giant Slayers. Totally loreful i guess :p

    How are they tougher than Giant Slayers when they have 84 HP, while Giant Slayers have 108?

    They are more beautiful than Giant Slayers, I'll give you that.
    To be fair, GS come in units of 60, not 75. And have no physical resistance nor even 15 armor.

    So, yeah, this ladies will be glass cannons but not as glassy as giant slayers. Giant slayers do have a BvL of 30 plus a base damage of 43, for a total v large of 70, while bladesingers wont even come close to that potential of hurt Vs infantry.

  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 7,002
    vizaresh said:

    eumaies said:

    Guys.... one burning head. Seriously.

    the issue is that other units who get destroyed by one burning head and have relatively the same cost can't do
    what these ladies do. so until units like sisters of slather exist these blade dancers need nerf or others like SoS needs a buff.

    easy concept :)

    Easy concept indeed. They are lower md, no shield, no poison, higher cost. Loose formation? All factors in how risky the glass cannon is.

    Sisters do indeed get melted in many matchups and you have to be very careful how and where you use them to get value.

    Now a big difference is wood elves virtually always have low armour infantry; for dark elves you have to plan for low and high armour. You won’t always bring a low armour infantry killer spell Vs dark elves but you should most of the time Vs wood elves.

    I use sisters but there is no matchup in the game, not even dwarfs who lack magic, where you don’t need a good plan to keep them from getting nuked without getting their value. Any unit with this much cost and risk is not one I’m worried is OP or going to be spammed and break matchups.
  • damon40000damon40000 Registered Users Posts: 156

    So these beautiful ladies are tougher than Giant Slayers. Totally loreful i guess :p

    How are they tougher than Giant Slayers when they have 84 HP, while Giant Slayers have 108?

    They are more beautiful than Giant Slayers, I'll give you that.
    Let's not discriminate here and define beauty too narrowly. Giant Slayers can be beautiful as well.
    I'm a shallow bastard. I only see outer physical beauty.
    what can be more beautiful than naked belly barely covered by magnificent beard
    BFG dwarf kappa
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 7,002

    eumaies said:

    Guys.... one burning head. Seriously.

    This is so reductionist. Surely there must be some other indicators how we compare and evaluate units. Sisters of slaughter, silverin guard threads, i remember, were getting a lot more effort put into them.

    Phoenix guard, one burning head.
    Tomb guard, one burning head.
    Skaven slaves, one burning head.

    that is not an indicator. Not saying they need nerfs, not at least for now, but they definitely seem very good.
    Phoenix guard definitely not killed or meaningfully hurt by one burning head.

    Tomb guard get damaged by burning head but they actually have moderate armour and withstand it pretty well. The unit you’re talking about costs 450 more and has 15 armour.

    Skaven slaves, there you are correct. And makes my point.
  • vizareshvizaresh Registered Users Posts: 161
    eumaies said:

    vizaresh said:

    eumaies said:

    Guys.... one burning head. Seriously.

    the issue is that other units who get destroyed by one burning head and have relatively the same cost can't do
    what these ladies do. so until units like sisters of slather exist these blade dancers need nerf or others like SoS needs a buff.

    easy concept :)

    Easy concept indeed. They are lower md, no shield, no poison, higher cost. Loose formation? All factors in how risky the glass cannon is.

    Sisters do indeed get melted in many matchups and you have to be very careful how and where you use them to get value.

    Now a big difference is wood elves virtually always have low armour infantry; for dark elves you have to plan for low and high armour. You won’t always bring a low armour infantry killer spell Vs dark elves but you should most of the time Vs wood elves.

    I use sisters but there is no matchup in the game, not even dwarfs who lack magic, where you don’t need a good plan to keep them from getting nuked without getting their value. Any unit with this much cost and risk is not one I’m worried is OP or going to be spammed and break matchups.

    SoS has
    around 600 less health
    less MA
    less WS when their chaff clearing ability is active
    magic damage
    10 less armor
    and 10 less CB

    over all the only things SoS has over Blade Singers is 2 more leadership,
    Poison
    20% shield
    15 MD
    and MM

    and if CODK proved anything was that a unit with good stats and no health performs significantly worse than other units with lower stats but higher HP. SoS got too many nerfs but no cost reduction in return. the last -2 MD didn't even make any sense as they were not over-performing in any MU. overall comparing blade dancers to other elite anti-infantry units shows that they are over-performing or the others are not up to par. Executioners are really slow and do not have the ability to clear chaff as BS does and they lose to chosen relatively easily. can you think of any situation that you would want a unit like executioners over BS? as how AP works this game armor is not really worth it over speed and Physica resistance IMO.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 7,002
    vizaresh said:

    eumaies said:

    vizaresh said:

    eumaies said:

    Guys.... one burning head. Seriously.

    the issue is that other units who get destroyed by one burning head and have relatively the same cost can't do
    what these ladies do. so until units like sisters of slather exist these blade dancers need nerf or others like SoS needs a buff.

    easy concept :)

    Easy concept indeed. They are lower md, no shield, no poison, higher cost. Loose formation? All factors in how risky the glass cannon is.

    Sisters do indeed get melted in many matchups and you have to be very careful how and where you use them to get value.

    Now a big difference is wood elves virtually always have low armour infantry; for dark elves you have to plan for low and high armour. You won’t always bring a low armour infantry killer spell Vs dark elves but you should most of the time Vs wood elves.

    I use sisters but there is no matchup in the game, not even dwarfs who lack magic, where you don’t need a good plan to keep them from getting nuked without getting their value. Any unit with this much cost and risk is not one I’m worried is OP or going to be spammed and break matchups.

    SoS has
    around 600 less health
    less MA
    less WS when their chaff clearing ability is active
    magic damage
    10 less armor
    and 10 less CB

    over all the only things SoS has over Blade Singers is 2 more leadership,
    Poison
    20% shield
    15 MD
    and MM

    and if CODK proved anything was that a unit with good stats and no health performs significantly worse than other units with lower stats but higher HP. SoS got too many nerfs but no cost reduction in return. the last -2 MD didn't even make any sense as they were not over-performing in any MU. overall comparing blade dancers to other elite anti-infantry units shows that they are over-performing or the others are not up to par. Executioners are really slow and do not have the ability to clear chaff as BS does and they lose to chosen relatively easily. can you think of any situation that you would want a unit like executioners over BS? as how AP works this game armor is not really worth it over speed and Physica resistance IMO.
    The only thing that compensates SOS for their extreme vulnerability to magic is their insane MD, +15 higher than this new unit. That means that if you protect them from their counters you get a unit that can dominate all low and medium tier units - it's almost like armour in melee to that extent, except it works vs AP units.

    These more expensive bladeladies have nothing in that extreme range to protect them. They cost more and have similar vulnerability to magic. In other words they're extremely easy to counter by any faction in the game that opts to prepare for them. When 1200 point infantry units have ample counters, there's no issue, nothing to see here.

    When would i want executioners over BS? Most of the time, frankly, especially as wood elves where their armour would be in useful contrast to the rest of the roster. Executioners' armour is useful - it means they actually get to do their job and overwhelm armies that don't take enough armour piercing. All these infantry units gotta stand and get nailed while they do their job, 100 armour means you can't be slaughtered to no effect.
  • Theo91Theo91 Registered Users Posts: 2,043
    Loupi_ said:

    eumaies said:

    Guys.... one burning head. Seriously.

    it really surprises me that bladesingers of all things are getting all this crying. I suspect that zerkovich "test" has something to do with it.
    Would have been interesting if he tested them against sisters of slaughter, witch elf ror, norsca beserkers (and ror version) etc
  • griffithxigriffithxi Registered Users Posts: 1,003
    edited November 2020
    What is really going to be interesting is pairing bladesingers with branchwraith.
    I am looking forward to grabbing a spellweaver and seeing if they can put their stealth on these guys & branchwraith to get them to the front line with branchwraith and mow through everything with their AOE magic resist debuff item from branchwraith that should make them do 22% more damage.
    Should make for interesting build possibilities and potentially incentivize people to try some other lords besides just the legendary lords.

    Hopefully that debuff will allow the unit to work against dwarfs too.
    Post edited by griffithxi on
  • BastileanBastilean Registered Users Posts: 1,349
    I plan on using a wall of treekin for my fragile bbs.
  • NightOfTheDeadNightOfTheDead Member Registered Users Posts: 678
    edited November 2020
    @eumaies Problem is not their counters. It is their performance compared to SoS. They both can get hard countered easily. On the other hand their killing power is very different for some reason just for 100 gold difference

    in TT all those three SOS, swordmasters and wardancers/bladesingers had almost identical stats, with SOS actually have higher leadership.
  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 7,474
    their HP is the standard of all Elf elite infantry including Swordmasters, Phoenix Guards, Executioners and so on. I would say a 1200g unit deserves to have a bit more HP than a 800g, particularly if it's naked.
    mightygloin_fan_1
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 7,002

    @eumaies Problem is not their counters. It is their performance compared to SoS. They both can get hard countered easily. On the other hand their killing power is very different for some reason just for 100 gold difference

    in TT all those three SOS, swordmasters and wardancers/bladesingers had almost identical stats, with SOS actually have higher leadership.

    SOS are cheaper. And yes they are quite good at killing, much worse at staying alive.
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