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In response to feedback on the Forge of Daith

We’ve heard your feedback regarding the Forge of Daith, and we’re going to work to make various improvements.

Short-term, we’re going to focus on implementing some changes that should deal with some of the most notable pain points raised in the last few days:

- Reforged items will no longer return to their base level upon expiring, and instead will revert to the level they were before being Reforged.
- When you receive Forge of Daith dilemmas that affect a maximum-level item, you will be able to choose to reduce the time until the next Daith’s Gift event – Naestra will no longer walk away without anything (she’s generous, but not that generous!).
- We also want to do a pass on the item effects overall to ensure that they provide interesting and exciting gameplay choices.

Longer term we want to make continued improvements – while we don’t want to make fundamental changes to the underlying gameplay and UI, there are two areas in particular we want to focus on:

- Letting you see in advance which item you receive from the Daith’s Gift dilemma
- Investigating what new visual elements we can create to support the system

We appreciate your feedback and patience so far and are confident that we’ll be able to work together to make the Sisters a truly unique campaign experience. As always, development is subject to change - so while this is currently the plan, we appreciate your patience and understanding if this changes in the future, and we will let you know if that is the case.
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Comments

  • NeodeinosNeodeinos Registered Users Posts: 11,912
    Guess I'll wait before playing them.
    #JusticeForTzeentch
    #JusticeForMonogods
  • MaedrethnirMaedrethnir Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 12,567
    The problem is that this very mechanic is lacklustre. It's a Glorified Rite of Vaul. The underlying gameplay should change in order to provide players with agency and customisation.


    The Forge of Daith rework loose ideas: it's a heavy mix of my own suggestions and SwiftyMcBold's comment on reddit.

    1. Daith - Vaul's Anvil UI where you can forge items the way you want, upgrade your units etc. Since both of the Sisters starts are in Naggarond, it would make sense to give them a quest to retrieve the Hammer of Vaul.


    Winning battles and sacking settlements would provide players with rare metals - new resource for the Sister's faction. Travel the world for rare metals and discover, rediscover smithing recipes.

    Players would be able to:
    1. Create new items the way they want, their costs would depend on their power - expensive option
    2. Get randomised items - cheaper option
    Said items would be upgradeable, with an option to melt them to recover rare metals.
    Better quality armours would slightly change the Sisters appearance by giving them new details, such as gems, small plates/scales etc. Nothing character altering, just refinements.


    As for the units upgrades there could be two choices:
    1. Upgrade one unit by Daith personally: superior quality upgrade, expensive and on a long cooldown
    2. Let one of his apprentices do it: lesser quality upgrade, cheaper and on a shorter cooldown. There is a chance for it to fail and give unit a debuff

    Every unit would have two or three upgrade slots. In order to for the unit to be qualified for an upgrade it would require certain ranks, for example:

    Glade Guard:
    I. Reinforced bow and quiver:
    Rank 1: +x% bonus range
    Rank 4: +x% bonus range, -x% reload speed
    Rank 7: +x% bonus range, -x% reload speed, +x% missile damage and ammo capacity - Daith only upgrade

    II. Reinforced blades and armour:
    Rank 1: +x% melee attack
    Rank 4: +x% melee attack, +x% melee defence
    Rank 7: +x% melee attack, +x% melee defence, +x% weapon strength and missile resistance - Daith only upgrade

    III. Reinforced boots and cloak:
    Rank 1: +x% speed
    Rank 4: +x% speed, stalk
    Rank 7: +x% speed, stalk, snipe and vanguard deployment - Daith only upgrade

    animacja-sygn-3.gif


  • EmeraldThanatosEmeraldThanatos Registered Users Posts: 2,468
    Varinor said:

    The problem is that this very mechanic is lacklustre. It's a Glorified Rite of Vaul. The underlying gameplay should change in order to provide players with agency and customisation.


    The Forge of Daith rework loose ideas: it's a heavy mix of my own suggestions and SwiftyMcBold's comment on reddit.

    1. Daith - Vaul's Anvil UI where you can forge items the way you want, upgrade your units etc. Since both of the Sisters starts are in Naggarond, it would make sense to give them a quest to retrieve the Hammer of Vaul.


    Winning battles and sacking settlements would provide players with rare metals - new resource for the Sister's faction. Travel the world for rare metals and discover, rediscover smithing recipes.

    Players would be able to:
    1. Create new items the way they want, their costs would depend on their power - expensive option
    2. Get randomised items - cheaper option
    Said items would be upgradeable, with an option to melt them to recover rare metals.
    Better quality armours would slightly change the Sisters appearance by giving them new details, such as gems, small plates/scales etc. Nothing character altering, just refinements.


    As for the units upgrades there could be two choices:
    1. Upgrade one unit by Daith personally: superior quality upgrade, expensive and on a long cooldown
    2. Let one of his apprentices do it: lesser quality upgrade, cheaper and on a shorter cooldown. There is a chance for it to fail and give unit a debuff

    Every unit would have two or three upgrade slots. In order to for the unit to be qualified for an upgrade it would require certain ranks, for example:

    Glade Guard:
    I. Reinforced bow and quiver:
    Rank 1: +x% bonus range
    Rank 4: +x% bonus range, -x% reload speed
    Rank 7: +x% bonus range, -x% reload speed, +x% missile damage and ammo capacity - Daith only upgrade

    II. Reinforced blades and armour:
    Rank 1: +x% melee attack
    Rank 4: +x% melee attack, +x% melee defence
    Rank 7: +x% melee attack, +x% melee defence, +x% weapon strength and missile resistance - Daith only upgrade

    III. Reinforced boots and cloak:
    Rank 1: +x% speed
    Rank 4: +x% speed, stalk
    Rank 7: +x% speed, stalk, snipe and vanguard deployment - Daith only upgrade

    The concept is great, the execution was just lackluster. Not every mechanic needs to be super deep and unique. It just needs to be fun and useful, in its current form the forge of daith looks to be neither.
    Ranking of all Total War games I've played:
    1. Three kingdoms
    2. Shogun 2
    3. Warhammer
    4. Medieval 2
    5. Thrones
    6. Attila
    7. Rome 2
    8. Napoleon
    9. Empire
    10. Troy (haven't actually played it, I'm just still salty)

  • AkhuAkhu Registered Users Posts: 107
    Are those changes going to be implemented right now? or?
  • EmeraldThanatosEmeraldThanatos Registered Users Posts: 2,468
    Akhu said:

    Are those changes going to be implemented right now? or?

    They will probably be added in either a hotfix or a patch in January/February
    Ranking of all Total War games I've played:
    1. Three kingdoms
    2. Shogun 2
    3. Warhammer
    4. Medieval 2
    5. Thrones
    6. Attila
    7. Rome 2
    8. Napoleon
    9. Empire
    10. Troy (haven't actually played it, I'm just still salty)

  • Eliak_The_Rat_MercEliak_The_Rat_Merc Registered Users Posts: 702

    Akhu said:

    Are those changes going to be implemented right now? or?

    January/February
    Funny way of wrriting "march or april"


    Also, they had 2 weeks for it, why admit to it just now? Why not post this kind of message earlier and at least attempt to rework the mechanic before relase?
  • MaedrethnirMaedrethnir Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 12,567

    Varinor said:

    The problem is that this very mechanic is lacklustre. It's a Glorified Rite of Vaul. The underlying gameplay should change in order to provide players with agency and customisation.


    The Forge of Daith rework loose ideas: it's a heavy mix of my own suggestions and SwiftyMcBold's comment on reddit.

    1. Daith - Vaul's Anvil UI where you can forge items the way you want, upgrade your units etc. Since both of the Sisters starts are in Naggarond, it would make sense to give them a quest to retrieve the Hammer of Vaul.


    Winning battles and sacking settlements would provide players with rare metals - new resource for the Sister's faction. Travel the world for rare metals and discover, rediscover smithing recipes.

    Players would be able to:
    1. Create new items the way they want, their costs would depend on their power - expensive option
    2. Get randomised items - cheaper option
    Said items would be upgradeable, with an option to melt them to recover rare metals.
    Better quality armours would slightly change the Sisters appearance by giving them new details, such as gems, small plates/scales etc. Nothing character altering, just refinements.


    As for the units upgrades there could be two choices:
    1. Upgrade one unit by Daith personally: superior quality upgrade, expensive and on a long cooldown
    2. Let one of his apprentices do it: lesser quality upgrade, cheaper and on a shorter cooldown. There is a chance for it to fail and give unit a debuff

    Every unit would have two or three upgrade slots. In order to for the unit to be qualified for an upgrade it would require certain ranks, for example:

    Glade Guard:
    I. Reinforced bow and quiver:
    Rank 1: +x% bonus range
    Rank 4: +x% bonus range, -x% reload speed
    Rank 7: +x% bonus range, -x% reload speed, +x% missile damage and ammo capacity - Daith only upgrade

    II. Reinforced blades and armour:
    Rank 1: +x% melee attack
    Rank 4: +x% melee attack, +x% melee defence
    Rank 7: +x% melee attack, +x% melee defence, +x% weapon strength and missile resistance - Daith only upgrade

    III. Reinforced boots and cloak:
    Rank 1: +x% speed
    Rank 4: +x% speed, stalk
    Rank 7: +x% speed, stalk, snipe and vanguard deployment - Daith only upgrade

    The concept is great, the execution was just lackluster. Not every mechanic needs to be super deep and unique. It just needs to be fun and useful, in its current form the forge of daith looks to be neither.
    The concept of the Forge of Daith itself is great, I agree, but it shouldn't be a Rite of Vaul item dispenser, because it is bland as bland can be. That's where I disagree, especially considering the fact that the WE might never again get new DLC. It was probably their only chance to get mechanics on the same level as Eltharion, Grom and Throt.

    I've heard people saying that the Skaven mechanics write themselves. I find it to be the kind of statement that speaks more about the people saying it than the actual reality, what I mean by that is a poor grasp of lore and lacking imagination.

    It's not rocket science. It is all about budget and goodwill.

    Throt's laboratory could have been made into incidents and dilemmas, with pop out windows giving players choice of mutations. I think that the first ever LP for DLC should have provided the WE with bespoke, elaborate mechanics.
    animacja-sygn-3.gif


  • TulajMnieTulajMnie Registered Users Posts: 9
    Great to see that you saw feedback and embrace it :smile: looking forward to see what you will come up with!
  • ErathilErathil Registered Users Posts: 1,107
    It is really great to see CA recognizing and addressing this. Really well done!
  • FossowayFossoway Registered Users Posts: 4,625

    I am happy but.....


    CA COMEONE GIVE tehenhauin his lets tweek, (own ror and buff his highest reward)


    Or at the very least, replace the RoR with Blessed Spawning units, just like Nakai. It's an easy fix, but Tehen can absolutely use those.
  • FossowayFossoway Registered Users Posts: 4,625
    Really glad to see that you're taking the feedback in. It's good to know you'll look into it.
  • korradokortokorradokorto Registered Users Posts: 415
    reddit 1 - this forum 0

    i guess ....
  • EmrysorEmrysor Registered Users Posts: 499
    Varinor said:

    Varinor said:

    The problem is that this very mechanic is lacklustre. It's a Glorified Rite of Vaul. The underlying gameplay should change in order to provide players with agency and customisation.


    The Forge of Daith rework loose ideas: it's a heavy mix of my own suggestions and SwiftyMcBold's comment on reddit.

    1. Daith - Vaul's Anvil UI where you can forge items the way you want, upgrade your units etc. Since both of the Sisters starts are in Naggarond, it would make sense to give them a quest to retrieve the Hammer of Vaul.


    Winning battles and sacking settlements would provide players with rare metals - new resource for the Sister's faction. Travel the world for rare metals and discover, rediscover smithing recipes.

    Players would be able to:
    1. Create new items the way they want, their costs would depend on their power - expensive option
    2. Get randomised items - cheaper option
    Said items would be upgradeable, with an option to melt them to recover rare metals.
    Better quality armours would slightly change the Sisters appearance by giving them new details, such as gems, small plates/scales etc. Nothing character altering, just refinements.


    As for the units upgrades there could be two choices:
    1. Upgrade one unit by Daith personally: superior quality upgrade, expensive and on a long cooldown
    2. Let one of his apprentices do it: lesser quality upgrade, cheaper and on a shorter cooldown. There is a chance for it to fail and give unit a debuff

    Every unit would have two or three upgrade slots. In order to for the unit to be qualified for an upgrade it would require certain ranks, for example:

    Glade Guard:
    I. Reinforced bow and quiver:
    Rank 1: +x% bonus range
    Rank 4: +x% bonus range, -x% reload speed
    Rank 7: +x% bonus range, -x% reload speed, +x% missile damage and ammo capacity - Daith only upgrade

    II. Reinforced blades and armour:
    Rank 1: +x% melee attack
    Rank 4: +x% melee attack, +x% melee defence
    Rank 7: +x% melee attack, +x% melee defence, +x% weapon strength and missile resistance - Daith only upgrade

    III. Reinforced boots and cloak:
    Rank 1: +x% speed
    Rank 4: +x% speed, stalk
    Rank 7: +x% speed, stalk, snipe and vanguard deployment - Daith only upgrade

    The concept is great, the execution was just lackluster. Not every mechanic needs to be super deep and unique. It just needs to be fun and useful, in its current form the forge of daith looks to be neither.
    The concept of the Forge of Daith itself is great, I agree, but it shouldn't be a Rite of Vaul item dispenser, because it is bland as bland can be. That's where I disagree, especially considering the fact that the WE might never again get new DLC. It was probably their only chance to get mechanics on the same level as Eltharion, Grom and Throt.

    I've heard people saying that the Skaven mechanics write themselves. I find it to be the kind of statement that speaks more about the people saying it than the actual reality, what I mean by that is a poor grasp of lore and lacking imagination.

    It's not rocket science. It is all about budget and goodwill.

    Throt's laboratory could have been made into incidents and dilemmas, with pop out windows giving players choice of mutations. I think that the first ever LP for DLC should have provided the WE with bespoke, elaborate mechanics.
    I kinda agree with you. They failed big time with the forge of daith and now they are in a massive damage control to salvage it to some degree. I am not programmer, but I have a vivid imagination about how they could create mechanics. To make it unique what you need is a new ui and create different groups. For example one group could be dedicated to increasing the combat capabilities, and the second group increase the effectiveness of the army, I mean there are weapon slots in these groups. And Daith could have giving you the option to increase one at a time for example. I fail to see how it is so hard to create such mechanics to other races, when they certainly nailed it with Skaven, Grom and I would argue Eltharion. Just feels they dedicated most resources to the skaven mechanic and the updated wood elves faction mechanic, but figured out they needed something for the sisters in the last hour and patched something together. There is no excuse for that.
  • GuTaiYPGuTaiYP Registered Users Posts: 417
    Dear @CA_Danial

    It is obvious that CA, in regard of player feedbacks, is becoming responsive more than ever thanks to you. Please do keep up the healty communication line with us so we may have more confidence in you and the game you guys deliver.

    Sincere Thanks.
    Some people are not known for questioning the things they've paid for. Is it a virtue one must have in Modern Times?
  • ITA_Vae_VictisITA_Vae_Victis Senior Member ItalyRegistered Users Posts: 1,769
    Akhu said:

    Are those changes going to be implemented right now? or?

    On Reddit Grace said the short-term changes are aimed for December, but might slip into January.

    No words on the timeline for the long-term changes AFAIK, but realistically not before the next major patch+DLC, possibly later.
  • Phoenix99Phoenix99 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,061
    Before game 3
  • Eliak_The_Rat_MercEliak_The_Rat_Merc Registered Users Posts: 702
    edited December 2020
    Isn't it interesting how CA responded to this only after ytbers were allowed to review the dlc freely.
    Which i also find quite...assholish how ytbers can't really speak their opinion about the dlc until like 2 days before the relase.
  • MiniaArMiniaAr Registered Users Posts: 1,173
    Yes, let's not go too hard on CA when they actually communicate and take players feedback into account.

    Let's see how they rework the mechanic, both short term and long term, but the mechanic has potential.

    Furthermore, if CA wants to take a look at previous LPs, we should only encourage them. For example:

    Tehenauin: replacing the regular Lizardmen RoRs with campaign specific units (just like Ikkit). There are a lot from the Thanquol book: Red Shields, Living Bastions, Fire Lizards, Eyes of the Canopy. All lore friendly units. Also, sacrifices bonuses could be permanent in exchange for a regular cost in sacrifices per turn, so that you don't have to check every turn if your buffs are up or not.

    Ikkit: Workshop creations should be instable, similar to Flesh laboratory

    Nakai: Should get a choice to give back settlements to Lizardmen factions (in Lustria and Southlands) or taking for the vassal. Vassal should be better at defending settlements and using the armies you spawn for him. Also ennemies should take into account both Nakai and the vassal strength in the calculation.

    Malus: the mechanic should get a forge of Daith like rework.

  • FerestorFerestor Registered Users Posts: 1,085
    Thank you CA for listining to the critisim.

    And i understand that you don't want to risk that the last minute changes may break some ohter things. Looking forward to the changes.
  • Eliak_The_Rat_MercEliak_The_Rat_Merc Registered Users Posts: 702
    MiniaAr said:

    Yes, let's not go too hard on CA when they actually communicate and take players feedback into account.

    Let's see how they rework the mechanic, both short term and long term, but the mechanic has potential.

    Furthermore, if CA wants to take a look at previous LPs, we should only encourage them. For example:

    Tehenauin: replacing the regular Lizardmen RoRs with campaign specific units (just like Ikkit). There are a lot from the Thanquol book: Red Shields, Living Bastions, Fire Lizards, Eyes of the Canopy. All lore friendly units. Also, sacrifices bonuses could be permanent in exchange for a regular cost in sacrifices per turn, so that you don't have to check every turn if your buffs are up or not.

    Ikkit: Workshop creations should be instable, similar to Flesh laboratory

    Nakai: Should get a choice to give back settlements to Lizardmen factions (in Lustria and Southlands) or taking for the vassal. Vassal should be better at defending settlements and using the armies you spawn for him. Also ennemies should take into account both Nakai and the vassal strength in the calculation.

    Malus: the mechanic should get a forge of Daith like rework.

    Unless people create enough outrage on reddit/yt, CA won't rework them because it will generate no $$$
  • sasori1548sasori1548 Registered Users Posts: 436
    Thanks, its much needed. I would love to see what im getting next
  • NinaranNinaran Registered Users Posts: 391
    Guess I'll wait a few months before playing Sisters.
  • ZekerathZekerath Registered Users Posts: 638

    Akhu said:

    Are those changes going to be implemented right now? or?

    January/February
    Funny way of wrriting "march or april"


    Also, they had 2 weeks for it, why admit to it just now? Why not post this kind of message earlier and at least attempt to rework the mechanic before relase?
    Just on the card art debacle Grace had to mention that it takes time to get these sort of things discussed internally, it's not like they just see the first ever reaction to anything, drop whatever else they were doing and start implementing changes according to first feedback.
    I also doubt the developers have just been twiddling their thumbs between reveal of the DLC about two weeks ago and actual release of it, they most likely had things to work on to make at least a working launch for the DLC and had no time to rush changes to the Forge mechanic.
  • LolTHELolLolTHELol Registered Users Posts: 1,102
    I hope this means we can finally get Malus and Tehenauin mechanics also looked at and fixed in future updates.
  • EmeraldThanatosEmeraldThanatos Registered Users Posts: 2,468
    LolTHELol said:

    I hope this means we can finally get Malus and Tehenauin mechanics also looked at and fixed in future updates.

    Malus was apparently changed to only have debuffs on full possession which is good.
    Ranking of all Total War games I've played:
    1. Three kingdoms
    2. Shogun 2
    3. Warhammer
    4. Medieval 2
    5. Thrones
    6. Attila
    7. Rome 2
    8. Napoleon
    9. Empire
    10. Troy (haven't actually played it, I'm just still salty)

  • Sir_GodspeedSir_Godspeed Registered Users Posts: 3,342
    "New visual elements"

    Meaning: y'all need some shiny keys jingling in front of your eyes so I guess we'll have to do that now.
  • Eliak_The_Rat_MercEliak_The_Rat_Merc Registered Users Posts: 702

    "New visual elements"

    Meaning: y'all need some shiny keys jingling in front of your eyes so I guess we'll have to do that now.

    Inb4 CA changes the background art of the forge and recolours the buttons
  • LaindeshLaindesh Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 3,889

    "New visual elements"

    Meaning: y'all need some shiny keys jingling in front of your eyes so I guess we'll have to do that now.

    Jingle bells jingle bells....

    ..I'll see myself out.

    at OP: Nice, looking forward to the changes. Means i can enjoy drycha first :)
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