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CA Please fix Tehenhauin's Sacrifices of Sotek RoR unlock. Just replace them with Blessed Spawn

MrMecHMrMecH Registered Users Posts: 2,358


RoR shouldn't be unlock by this mechanic.
SHUT UP GIVE US GHORGON!!!!!

Comments

  • NeodeinosNeodeinos Registered Users Posts: 9,894
    Ideally it should be new RoRs like Ikit's unique ones but if that's too much to ask then Blessed Spawn are good enough.

  • ReyDReyD Registered Users Posts: 288
    edited December 2020
    Yeah I think a big rework of LM is needed in WH3 .

    Nakai is messy (even if the ideas behind his campaign are cool)
    Tehen is a bit disapointed and fell flat in that sacrifice system

    I wouldn't that they are a failure, but it lacks a lot of things.



    And overall they lack an interesting and proper unique mechanic which is fun during all the campaign (honestly the geomantic web is really meh)

    Not expecting it anytime soon tho
    But before the trilogy end, Lizardmen need a big boost :)
  • FlyingWarPigWithPawsFlyingWarPigWithPaws Registered Users Posts: 817
    Great idea
    Ungrim is no longer homesick.
  • Sir_GodspeedSir_Godspeed Registered Users Posts: 3,120
  • Arcani_4_EverArcani_4_Ever Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,655
    He should get Unique RoRs IMO

    I would add an unique Dread Saurian at the top the pyramid.
  • GeorgeTrumanGeorgeTruman Registered Users Posts: 65
  • KN_GarsKN_Gars Registered Users Posts: 607
    His campaign is supposed to be more difficult and challenging than other LM campaigns, locking away the RoRs behind the sacrifices is clearly a part of that. Tehen is not the powerfantasy faction or the easy faction, you will have to go to Ikit or Gor-Rok for those.
  • GeorgeTrumanGeorgeTruman Registered Users Posts: 65
    KN_Gars said:

    His campaign is supposed to be more difficult and challenging than other LM campaigns, locking away the RoRs behind the sacrifices is clearly a part of that. Tehen is not the powerfantasy faction or the easy faction, you will have to go to Ikit or Gor-Rok for those.

    Isn't cult of sotek the most powerful lizard man faction? Like hands down? Its tougher for the first 30 to 40 turns but then he is hands down the strongest. Changing the pyramid like OP suggests just gives the player more interesting choices to spend their sacrifices on rather than just spamming the follower rite for the nutty followers.
  • MiniaArMiniaAr Registered Users Posts: 769
    No blessed spawning please, this would be a slap in the face for lizardmen players: still inferior to Ikkit special units and same mechanic as another LP (Nakai).

    When instead, he should get special units as well and they're actually plenty of them from the Red Host of Sotek list in the end times (ET units are ok for LP lords, see Eltharion):

    Red shields - melee red crested skinks with shields. Should be recruitable multiple times, to allow for a thematic frontline. Wouldn't be too strong (better than melee skinks but on par with saurus, after then buffs)

    Eyes of the canopy - special chameleon slinks.

    Living Bastions - special bastiladons with ark of sorel (permanent effect)

    Fire Lizard - could be either a special salamanders or even special ancient salamander.

    Wind that hunger - special Ripperdactyls. Ok we already have a RoR unit but Ikkit also have a special unit when there is a RoR of the same unit.

    Mauls of Sotek - special kroxygors ( make them red!).

    Redhorns - trio of feral stegadon. Could be similar to Norsca three mammoths unit.

    See, enough to replace the RoR with loreful special units on par with Ikkit's.

    Then the sacrifices should maybe get reworked to have a cost per turn instead of having to come each turn to see which buffs are on or not ( with the same normalised cost as now). And the Avatar should probably permanent (but still 1000 cost), to reward the player for finishing the campaign.

    Do that and Tehen has a very distinct campaign.
  • Mr_Finley7Mr_Finley7 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 5,927
    KN_Gars said:

    His campaign is supposed to be more difficult and challenging than other LM campaigns, locking away the RoRs behind the sacrifices is clearly a part of that. Tehen is not the powerfantasy faction or the easy faction, you will have to go to Ikit or Gor-Rok for those.

    Are you joking? The start of his campaign is awesomely tough but as soon as you hit the race war and the lizardmen factions all start tag teaming the Skaven the game is over. That mechanic alone makes his campaign so easy it’s stupid.

    Tehenhuain needs a rework something fierce.
  • saweendrasaweendra Registered Users Posts: 11,914
    +1
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc
  • SzemisSzemis Registered Users Posts: 134
    Definitely would love to see some specific Red Host units. Campaign exclusive for Tehenhuain.
  • BiesBies Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 3,163
    neodeinos said:

    Ideally it should be new RoRs like Ikit's unique ones but if that's too much to ask then Blessed Spawn are good enough.

    its never to much

    "I shivered at the sight of her - her beauty far beyond that of mortal man. But her soul glowed with an inner darkness that chilled my very core."









  • MiniaArMiniaAr Registered Users Posts: 769
    edited December 2020
    If Ikkit got them, it's not too much to ask for Tehenauin to get them as well (special campaign unit distinct from regular RoRs).
    This would be a great way to acknowledge the feedback on unbalanced LPs AND solve the issue at the same time.
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 10,226
    I can definitely recognise that Tehenhauin getting unique RoRs like Ikit does would be the "fairer" option, but the Blessed Spawning option doesn't ask CA to make a whole new set of units, and thus might be something they're more willing to do. Furthermore, if it's possible to keep spending sacrifices to get more of that Blessed Spawning, it might actually be more impactful to the overall campaign - you could potentially have those Blessed Spawnings in all your armies, rather than having one RoR in one army.
    ReyD said:

    And overall they lack an interesting and proper unique mechanic which is fun during all the campaign (honestly the geomantic web is really meh)

    Not expecting it anytime soon tho
    But before the trilogy end, Lizardmen need a big boost :)

    Now that Wood Elves have the worldroots system, I really want Lizardmen to get some sort of mechanic for teleporting between geomantic loci, with the cooldown being determined by the strength of the links used. For instance, teleporting between two adjacent nexuses with a level 5 connection might incur a 1-turn cooldown (travelling across a single strength 5 link), while following that up by traveling down a strength 2 link might add another 4 turns to the cooldown, while, hypothetically, teleporting across five strength 1 links might incur a 25-turn cooldown. Essentially, the formula is that each link traveled incurs a cooldown of six minus the link strength - short hops across strong links are almost free, while conversely, you CAN use it to send a stack deep into hostile territory (there are mentions in the fluff suggesting that the Lizardmen have used teleportation through the geomantic web to send expeditions to the Old World), but doing so is likely to shut down your ability to teleport stacks for a long time.

    As well as reflecting the fluff (that the Lizardmen typically travelled over oceans through some kind of magical passage rather than using fleets), this could also address the problem that Lizardmen often (counterintuitively) find traversing the jungle fairly difficult, while races with a teleport stance can just ignore much of the terrain. However, it does so in a way that requires them to actually invest in the Geomantic Web, rather than having every stack being able to teleport short distances freely. It also limits where they can teleport to, as they'd only be able to teleport to the province capitals, and they'd then need to travel by conventional means from there to get to lesser settlements.
  • TheGuardianOfMetalTheGuardianOfMetal Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 13,719
    edited December 2020
    KN_Gars said:

    His campaign is supposed to be more difficult and challenging than other LM campaigns, locking away the RoRs behind the sacrifices is clearly a part of that. Tehen is not the powerfantasy faction or the easy faction, you will have to go to Ikit or Gor-Rok for those.

    is it? Wait... the Hunter and the bEast ROR are NOT locked away. CA isn't consistent here.

    Give him unique Cult of Sotek ROR, like the Living Bastion etc. Maybe throw in Tichi-Huichi's Raiders as well (no connection to the Cult, but Skinks riding Horned Ones!) and use them as ROR there.
    Every wrong is recorded. Every slight against us, page after page, ETCHED IN BLOOD! Clan Gunnisson! Karak Eight Peaks! JOSEF BUGMAN!

    #PrayForBorisBokha (don't you dare kill of one of the 2 bigname Kislev characters in Backstory... he's the Bear guy!)

    The Empire still hasn't gotten their FLC LL. We need Marius Leitdorf of Averland!

    Where is Boris Todbringer? Have you seen him? For a Middenland DLC with Boris and the Ar-Ulric!

    Queek could smell their hatred, ratcheted to a degree that even he could not evoke in their simple hearts. He stepped over the old orange-fur’s body, eager to see for himself what it was they saw. But he heard it first.
    'Waaaaaaaggh! Gorfang!'
  • FossowayFossoway Registered Users Posts: 4,343
    KN_Gars said:

    His campaign is supposed to be more difficult and challenging than other LM campaigns, locking away the RoRs behind the sacrifices is clearly a part of that. Tehen is not the powerfantasy faction or the easy faction, you will have to go to Ikit or Gor-Rok for those.

    There is a difference between a hard campaign, and bad gameplay design. Currently half of Tehen's normal - not campaign specific - RoR is locked behind the Sacrifices mechanic. The other half is recruited normally.

    This is the only campaign where this happens. Rather than making the campaign more challenging, it makes it more frustrating since you would almost never unlock those in the first place, or until the very end of the game. This needs to be changed.
  • vg45vg45 DenmarkRegistered Users Posts: 136
    Agree with OP's suggestion and reasoning with it being a simple and easy change and not asking for too much, even if unique ROR would be cool.

    Anybody got sources for the teleportation or transportation magic that you claim Lizards do? I read the 6th edition rulebook cover to cover but never bothered with the newer ones and never read any novels, but I do not remember a single thing about fast travel. I would be happy to be proven wrong, I have talked with some unfortunate members of the Warhammer community that liked to pull a lot of stuff out of a hat. Lizardmen having lightning reactions to anything that happens around the world seems antithetical to my view of them mostly sitting around in Lustria studying plaques and warding off raiders coming for their riches.
  • GreenColouredGreenColoured Registered Users Posts: 2,148
    edited December 2020

    KN_Gars said:

    His campaign is supposed to be more difficult and challenging than other LM campaigns, locking away the RoRs behind the sacrifices is clearly a part of that. Tehen is not the powerfantasy faction or the easy faction, you will have to go to Ikit or Gor-Rok for those.

    Isn't cult of sotek the most powerful lizard man faction? Like hands down? Its tougher for the first 30 to 40 turns but then he is hands down the strongest. Changing the pyramid like OP suggests just gives the player more interesting choices to spend their sacrifices on rather than just spamming the follower rite for the nutty followers.
    Spoken like someone who clearly haven't played his campaign before.


    A LL with access to Flock of Doom and an Ark of Sotek from the start. Surrounded by Tomb King and Skavens at the start. With significant buffs to Skinks that makes up for the lack of Saurus. Or hell, even need Saurus at all.



    Challenging?
  • MiniaArMiniaAr Registered Users Posts: 769
    Fossoway said:

    KN_Gars said:

    His campaign is supposed to be more difficult and challenging than other LM campaigns, locking away the RoRs behind the sacrifices is clearly a part of that. Tehen is not the powerfantasy faction or the easy faction, you will have to go to Ikit or Gor-Rok for those.

    There is a difference between a hard campaign, and bad gameplay design. Currently half of Tehen's normal - not campaign specific - RoR is locked behind the Sacrifices mechanic. The other half is recruited normally.

    This is the only campaign where this happens. Rather than making the campaign more challenging, it makes it more frustrating since you would almost never unlock those in the first place, or until the very end of the game. This needs to be changed.
    Completely agree with this. Having the RoR behind the sacrifice system doesn't make the campaign harder or easier. RoRs rarely change a campaign outcome, except to save a strategic city once in a while.

    So I went back to the source for the loreful special units from "The End TImes: Thanquol" book:

    Red Host of Sotek (by the way, Tehenauin faction's colour should be red not orange, please fix).
    The Red Host of Tehenauin was known throughout all of Lustria. They moved misteriously through the deep jungles, arriving unbidden at the gates of each of the great cities. In times of need, the Red Host swept out of nowhere and fell upon the foes of the Lizardmen with all the vengeful fury of Sotek.


    The Red Shields (Skink cohort) - 5 Spawnings
    -> Replace the Cohort of Sotek in the Pyramid (still available via regular RoR recruitment for all Lizardmen factions)
    -> Should be close in strength to Saurus with shields, for a lower price
    -> Allows for both regular Red Crested Skinks (available to all Lizardmen) and Red Shields (Tehenauin only) to constitute the Red Host of Sotek frontline.


    Eyes of the Canopy (Chameleon skinks) - 1 Spawning
    -> Replace the Legion of Chaqua in the Pyramid
    -> Should be slightly better than blessed Chameleon skinks, probably with a stronger poison


    Fire Lizards (Salamander Hunting Pack) - 3 spawnings
    -> Replace the Umbral Tide in the Pyramid
    -> Ideally would have a fire attack similar to Irondrakes to differentiate with regular salamanders and Umbral tide.


    Living Bastions (Bastiladons with Ark of Sotek) - 2 Spawnings
    -> Replace the Pok Hopak Cohort
    -> Should have a permanent or semi-permanent Ark of Sotek effect


    Wind That Hungers (Ripperdactyls) - 1 Spawning
    -> Replace the Colossadon Hunters
    -> Should still be anti-infantry like regular Ripperdactyls but could have the Toad Rage of the Colossadon hunters (who are anti-large), so that both are differentiated.


    The units below are only mentionned in the ET:Thanquol book and don't have a special description, but they exist as well and CA could use them:

    Mauls of Sotek (Kroxygors) - 2 Spawnings
    -> Replace the Star Chambers guardians (Temple guards don't really fit the Red host guerilla theme)
    -> Could have Frenzy and poisoned attacks to match with the heavy Sotek theme.

    The Redhorns (Feral Stegadons) - 1 or 3 Spawnings (see below)
    -> Replace the Thunderous one
    -> Could be either 3 special feral Stegadons, or more interestingly, a trio in one unit, like the trio of feral Mammoths special unit for Norsca.

    Wing of Sotek (Terradons) - 1 Spawning
    -> Replace the Pahaux Sentinels
    -> One idea to differentiate them with the Sentinels and regular Stegadons would be to have them drop snakes instead of rocks.

    The number of Spawning is the one in ET:Thanquol, but this can be further adjusted. The idea would be to have something in between regular RoRs and Electoral special troops in that some of them can be recruited not just a single time.

    Source for the number of Spawnings:


    Below, the Red Host army description in the rules part of the book:


  • SaurianDruidSaurianDruid Registered Users Posts: 1,251
    Draxynnic said:

    I can definitely recognise that Tehenhauin getting unique RoRs like Ikit does would be the "fairer" option, but the Blessed Spawning option doesn't ask CA to make a whole new set of units, and thus might be something they're more willing to do. Furthermore, if it's possible to keep spending sacrifices to get more of that Blessed Spawning, it might actually be more impactful to the overall campaign - you could potentially have those Blessed Spawnings in all your armies, rather than having one RoR in one army.

    This is a very good point. Blessed Spawnings could allow Tehenhauin to have an entire army of blessed units and even start filling other armies with them as well. It is also quite thematic that Tehenhauin, himself a unique spawning, would have mechanics revolving around enhancing the unique spawning mechanic of the Lizardmen.

    I would much prefer this over new RoR, personally. I think the ideal situation would be to give Tehenhauin unique blessed spawnings that relate to Sotek. It could even be a way to make his all-skink armies even better as he'd have early and easy access to some higher quality skink spawnings that could be more competitive with saurus and other top tier infantry. Or maybe his unique special spawnings get double the bonus from Sotek rituals. So +20 armor instead of +10, as an example.

    There's a lot they could do to make Tehenhauin's mechanic more interesting.

    And of course it'd give the player something to spend their sacrifices on aside from just maintaining your faction buffs.
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 10,226
    edited December 2020
    vg45 said:

    Agree with OP's suggestion and reasoning with it being a simple and easy change and not asking for too much, even if unique ROR would be cool.

    Anybody got sources for the teleportation or transportation magic that you claim Lizards do? I read the 6th edition rulebook cover to cover but never bothered with the newer ones and never read any novels, but I do not remember a single thing about fast travel. I would be happy to be proven wrong, I have talked with some unfortunate members of the Warhammer community that liked to pull a lot of stuff out of a hat. Lizardmen having lightning reactions to anything that happens around the world seems antithetical to my view of them mostly sitting around in Lustria studying plaques and warding off raiders coming for their riches.

    The best example I can think of off the top of my head is the combination of the Dark Shadows over Albion campaign book and the 6E Lizardmen book. The former talks about the Lizardmen appearing mysteriously in the Old World and on Albion itself, despite nobody ever seeing any fleets. The 6E book gives the explanation from the perspective of the Lizardmen:

    "The Slann were forced to act more directly to safeguard the ancient fortress of the Old Ones and, using mystical paths left by their creators, they sent a powerful army led y the ancient Saurus Scar-Leader Kroq-Gar to drive away the warm-blooded interlopers." (from Albion)

    I'm pretty sure there are other references floating around, but this was the easiest for me to find - and, incidentally, I'm pretty sure it predates the ideas of both the Worldroots and the Beast-paths. It basically seems to be Games Workshop's go-to explanation for how a normally isolationist faction without a navy can zip around across the world to fight some random enemy when they have to (or the players need to justify their Lizardmen versus Chaos Dwarfs battle or something). Like the Tomb Kings, the Lizardmen can be quite aggressive at retrieving articles they consider valuable (arguably more so, in fact - plaques of the Old Ones are important for reasons beyond pride and greed) and sometimes there are other pressing matters that require intervention. Come to think on it, in fact, this reminds me of another, possibly clearer, example from the 8E army book:

    2502 Slagmire Destroyed: It is foreseen that a device being built by the Skaven in the lair of Slagmire must not be completed. Tehenhauin is chosen to lead the assault and the Slann use magic to transport the Prophet of Sotek and his army into the Skaven den. A three year battle leads to the eventual defeat of the Skaven and the destruction of their rocket invention.

    (An event which, incidentally, is where I think the Vortex campaign timeline diverges from the canon timeline: if the Lizardmen had failed to destroy Slagmire in time, it's plausible that the purpose of the rocket invention was to disrupt the Vortex as shown in the campaign.)

    I don't think we want the Lizardmen to be able to hop around at will through a simple stance (there are plenty of races that can do that already), but the proposal would provide a means of representing these mystical paths, while also providing a real incentive to developing the geomantic web.

    Could also hook other mechanics into a similar system - for instance, Mazdamundi might be able to channel earthquakes through the geomantic web on a similar cooldown.
  • MiniaArMiniaAr Registered Users Posts: 769
    Isn't it in the End Times that Lizardmen teleportation is described pretty explicitly?
  • General_HijaltiGeneral_Hijalti Registered Users Posts: 3,173
    Draxynnic said:

    vg45 said:

    Agree with OP's suggestion and reasoning with it being a simple and easy change and not asking for too much, even if unique ROR would be cool.

    Anybody got sources for the teleportation or transportation magic that you claim Lizards do? I read the 6th edition rulebook cover to cover but never bothered with the newer ones and never read any novels, but I do not remember a single thing about fast travel. I would be happy to be proven wrong, I have talked with some unfortunate members of the Warhammer community that liked to pull a lot of stuff out of a hat. Lizardmen having lightning reactions to anything that happens around the world seems antithetical to my view of them mostly sitting around in Lustria studying plaques and warding off raiders coming for their riches.

    The best example I can think of off the top of my head is the combination of the Dark Shadows over Albion campaign book and the 6E Lizardmen book. The former talks about the Lizardmen appearing mysteriously in the Old World and on Albion itself, despite nobody ever seeing any fleets. The 6E book gives the explanation from the perspective of the Lizardmen:

    "The Slann were forced to act more directly to safeguard the ancient fortress of the Old Ones and, using mystical paths left by their creators, they sent a powerful army led y the ancient Saurus Scar-Leader Kroq-Gar to drive away the warm-blooded interlopers." (from Albion)

    I'm pretty sure there are other references floating around, but this was the easiest for me to find - and, incidentally, I'm pretty sure it predates the ideas of both the Worldroots and the Beast-paths. It basically seems to be Games Workshop's go-to explanation for how a normally isolationist faction without a navy can zip around across the world to fight some random enemy when they have to (or the players need to justify their Lizardmen versus Chaos Dwarfs battle or something). Like the Tomb Kings, the Lizardmen can be quite aggressive at retrieving articles they consider valuable (arguably more so, in fact - plaques of the Old Ones are important for reasons beyond pride and greed) and sometimes there are other pressing matters that require intervention. Come to think on it, in fact, this reminds me of another, possibly clearer, example from the 8E army book:

    2502 Slagmire Destroyed: It is foreseen that a device being built by the Skaven in the lair of Slagmire must not be completed. Tehenhauin is chosen to lead the assault and the Slann use magic to transport the Prophet of Sotek and his army into the Skaven den. A three year battle leads to the eventual defeat of the Skaven and the destruction of their rocket invention.

    (An event which, incidentally, is where I think the Vortex campaign timeline diverges from the canon timeline: if the Lizardmen had failed to destroy Slagmire in time, it's plausible that the purpose of the rocket invention was to disrupt the Vortex as shown in the campaign.)

    I don't think we want the Lizardmen to be able to hop around at will through a simple stance (there are plenty of races that can do that already), but the proposal would provide a means of representing these mystical paths, while also providing a real incentive to developing the geomantic web.

    Could also hook other mechanics into a similar system - for instance, Mazdamundi might be able to channel earthquakes through the geomantic web on a similar cooldown.
    I always assumed the thing in slagmire was meant to be the doomsphere that Ikit made as that was destoyed before it could be used.
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 10,226

    Draxynnic said:

    vg45 said:

    Agree with OP's suggestion and reasoning with it being a simple and easy change and not asking for too much, even if unique ROR would be cool.

    Anybody got sources for the teleportation or transportation magic that you claim Lizards do? I read the 6th edition rulebook cover to cover but never bothered with the newer ones and never read any novels, but I do not remember a single thing about fast travel. I would be happy to be proven wrong, I have talked with some unfortunate members of the Warhammer community that liked to pull a lot of stuff out of a hat. Lizardmen having lightning reactions to anything that happens around the world seems antithetical to my view of them mostly sitting around in Lustria studying plaques and warding off raiders coming for their riches.

    The best example I can think of off the top of my head is the combination of the Dark Shadows over Albion campaign book and the 6E Lizardmen book. The former talks about the Lizardmen appearing mysteriously in the Old World and on Albion itself, despite nobody ever seeing any fleets. The 6E book gives the explanation from the perspective of the Lizardmen:

    "The Slann were forced to act more directly to safeguard the ancient fortress of the Old Ones and, using mystical paths left by their creators, they sent a powerful army led y the ancient Saurus Scar-Leader Kroq-Gar to drive away the warm-blooded interlopers." (from Albion)

    I'm pretty sure there are other references floating around, but this was the easiest for me to find - and, incidentally, I'm pretty sure it predates the ideas of both the Worldroots and the Beast-paths. It basically seems to be Games Workshop's go-to explanation for how a normally isolationist faction without a navy can zip around across the world to fight some random enemy when they have to (or the players need to justify their Lizardmen versus Chaos Dwarfs battle or something). Like the Tomb Kings, the Lizardmen can be quite aggressive at retrieving articles they consider valuable (arguably more so, in fact - plaques of the Old Ones are important for reasons beyond pride and greed) and sometimes there are other pressing matters that require intervention. Come to think on it, in fact, this reminds me of another, possibly clearer, example from the 8E army book:

    2502 Slagmire Destroyed: It is foreseen that a device being built by the Skaven in the lair of Slagmire must not be completed. Tehenhauin is chosen to lead the assault and the Slann use magic to transport the Prophet of Sotek and his army into the Skaven den. A three year battle leads to the eventual defeat of the Skaven and the destruction of their rocket invention.

    (An event which, incidentally, is where I think the Vortex campaign timeline diverges from the canon timeline: if the Lizardmen had failed to destroy Slagmire in time, it's plausible that the purpose of the rocket invention was to disrupt the Vortex as shown in the campaign.)

    I don't think we want the Lizardmen to be able to hop around at will through a simple stance (there are plenty of races that can do that already), but the proposal would provide a means of representing these mystical paths, while also providing a real incentive to developing the geomantic web.

    Could also hook other mechanics into a similar system - for instance, Mazdamundi might be able to channel earthquakes through the geomantic web on a similar cooldown.
    I always assumed the thing in slagmire was meant to be the doomsphere that Ikit made as that was destoyed before it could be used.
    The doomsphere showed up in a novel somewhere else, IIRC, although I don't recall which novel it was or precisely where it was except that it was near a dwarfhold and the Lizardmen weren't involved in putting a stop to it.
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