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IMO, Cathay might be added mostly to grab the Chinese audience.

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Comments

  • ROMOBOYROMOBOY Registered Users Posts: 3,636

    ROMOBOY said:

    ROMOBOY said:

    I’m pretty sure Chinese people don’t need to see their culture given the Warhammer treatment to buy the game. I’ve never understood this concept.

    "need" vs "want". And "buy" vs "buy in larger numbers".

    Whether or not you personally agree with the concept I think in general the idea that people are more likely to purchase a game if they can see themselves in it. Certainly it's something that's been around for decades. More specific to China I can certainly see it. I'd be interested to know the cold, hard data, but from what I know of China I can definitely see Cathay drawing more numbers than it otherwise would.
    Okay but let’s think about it this way. Are they (with GW’s approval) willing to spend a large amount of money and time in making an entire race from the ground up, just for the chance of attracting more Chinese consumers? It’s already gonna sell well in China. So what’s the point?
    What's the point? I thought that was fairly obvious; So it sells better than it would otherwise.

    You're also assuming it would be costly to make Cathay. I see it as actually pretty darn easy and cheap. The lore we have on them outlines a decent roster. even ignoring what GW might have that it didn't release they could easily make a roster from that with a couple additions. 2 LL's, 2 Heroes, 20ish units of mostly humans and Cavalry.
    Cathay would not be the cheapest. The scarcity of lore is enough to make their development time consuming and expensive.
    "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."

    Cathay > Chaos Dwarfs = Pain

    Justice for Kiwi123, neodeinos and FungusHound, the mighty Troll Slayers.
  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Registered Users Posts: 24,886
    edited December 2020
    JungleElf said:

    ROMOBOY said:

    ROMOBOY said:

    I’m pretty sure Chinese people don’t need to see their culture given the Warhammer treatment to buy the game. I’ve never understood this concept.

    "need" vs "want". And "buy" vs "buy in larger numbers".

    Whether or not you personally agree with the concept I think in general the idea that people are more likely to purchase a game if they can see themselves in it. Certainly it's something that's been around for decades. More specific to China I can certainly see it. I'd be interested to know the cold, hard data, but from what I know of China I can definitely see Cathay drawing more numbers than it otherwise would.
    Okay but let’s think about it this way. Are they (with GW’s approval) willing to spend a large amount of money and time in making an entire race from the ground up, just for the chance of attracting more Chinese consumers? It’s already gonna sell well in China. So what’s the point?
    What's the point? I thought that was fairly obvious; So it sells better than it would otherwise.

    You're also assuming it would be costly to make Cathay. I see it as actually pretty darn easy and cheap. The lore we have on them outlines a decent roster. even ignoring what GW might have that it didn't release they could easily make a roster from that with a couple additions. 2 LL's, 2 Heroes, 20ish units of mostly humans and Cavalry.
    How are they hypothetically cheap? They might actually be the most expensive one, as CA would need to draw up new concept arts, work in tandem with GW for approval and even design the culture from the ground up. Then it also needs its own unique campaign mechanics like any other faction and presumably a large dose of monstrous units to set it apart from the other human factions. Even its map-locations need to be fleshed-out. So, no, it will most certainly not be cheap if it's included at all. Almost everything needs to be made from scratch, no models for inspiration, nothing.

    It's just not happening with CA's recent statements and the like. They're far too busy with the core stuff, and even that's far from finished.
    I'm confused. You ask how they can be cheap then claim they need a "large dose of monstrous units", something they absolutely don't. If you add expensive things into a roster of course it'll be expensive. As to your question I answered it in the comment you quoted.

    Yes they need to draw up concepts but that's how CA works, everything gets a concept. And they've just spent years working on Fantasy China. It's hardly a new or unfamiliar concept for them. Mechanics, CA's got a library of them now, pick a couple. And the map? It should extend to Cathay at the minimum anyway. Game 2 covered half the world, I don't see why game 3 can't cover a much smaller portion of the world than game 2.
    I apologize in for everything I say till around 29/04
  • JungleElfJungleElf Registered Users Posts: 3,906
    edited December 2020

    JungleElf said:

    ROMOBOY said:

    ROMOBOY said:

    I’m pretty sure Chinese people don’t need to see their culture given the Warhammer treatment to buy the game. I’ve never understood this concept.

    "need" vs "want". And "buy" vs "buy in larger numbers".

    Whether or not you personally agree with the concept I think in general the idea that people are more likely to purchase a game if they can see themselves in it. Certainly it's something that's been around for decades. More specific to China I can certainly see it. I'd be interested to know the cold, hard data, but from what I know of China I can definitely see Cathay drawing more numbers than it otherwise would.
    Okay but let’s think about it this way. Are they (with GW’s approval) willing to spend a large amount of money and time in making an entire race from the ground up, just for the chance of attracting more Chinese consumers? It’s already gonna sell well in China. So what’s the point?
    What's the point? I thought that was fairly obvious; So it sells better than it would otherwise.

    You're also assuming it would be costly to make Cathay. I see it as actually pretty darn easy and cheap. The lore we have on them outlines a decent roster. even ignoring what GW might have that it didn't release they could easily make a roster from that with a couple additions. 2 LL's, 2 Heroes, 20ish units of mostly humans and Cavalry.
    How are they hypothetically cheap? They might actually be the most expensive one, as CA would need to draw up new concept arts, work in tandem with GW for approval and even design the culture from the ground up. Then it also needs its own unique campaign mechanics like any other faction and presumably a large dose of monstrous units to set it apart from the other human factions. Even its map-locations need to be fleshed-out. So, no, it will most certainly not be cheap if it's included at all. Almost everything needs to be made from scratch, no models for inspiration, nothing.

    It's just not happening with CA's recent statements and the like. They're far too busy with the core stuff, and even that's far from finished.
    I'm confused. You ask how they can be cheap then claim they need a "large dose of monstrous units", something they absolutely don't. If you add expensive things into a roster of course it'll be expensive. As to your question I answered it in the comment you quoted.

    Yes they need to draw up concepts but that's how CA works, everything gets a concept. And they've just spent years working on Fantasy China. It's hardly a new or unfamiliar concept for them. Mechanics, CA's got a library of them now, pick a couple. And the map? It should extend to Cathay at the minimum anyway. Game 2 covered half the world, I don't see why game 3 can't cover a much smaller portion of the world than game 2.
    Half of the written inspiration for Cathay comes from the Tamurkhan book mentioning lots of monstrous units, like Oni-like Ogres, Raven statues, Jade warriors, Heavenly dragons, etc. Also, 3K art is not applicable to Warhammer and the concept art of other established factions is based on the miniatures (they paint themself) and art of GW, making the work a bit easier for them as there already are concept arts to work with.

    Cathay doesn't have that. And we haven't even been promised the full map (which is ludicrous, anyway).

    You're really downplaying the work it would cost. A lot.
  • FerestorFerestor Registered Users Posts: 623
    If Cathay will come (I really hope for it) then it's already in development.
    I don't think that the TK development had begone after WH2 was released. Most likely the Develpoment-Team will be split the more WH3 will be finished. so a small part of the Team is most likey already in progress to make the race packs.
  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Registered Users Posts: 24,886
    edited December 2020
    JungleElf said:

    JungleElf said:

    ROMOBOY said:

    ROMOBOY said:

    I’m pretty sure Chinese people don’t need to see their culture given the Warhammer treatment to buy the game. I’ve never understood this concept.

    "need" vs "want". And "buy" vs "buy in larger numbers".

    Whether or not you personally agree with the concept I think in general the idea that people are more likely to purchase a game if they can see themselves in it. Certainly it's something that's been around for decades. More specific to China I can certainly see it. I'd be interested to know the cold, hard data, but from what I know of China I can definitely see Cathay drawing more numbers than it otherwise would.
    Okay but let’s think about it this way. Are they (with GW’s approval) willing to spend a large amount of money and time in making an entire race from the ground up, just for the chance of attracting more Chinese consumers? It’s already gonna sell well in China. So what’s the point?
    What's the point? I thought that was fairly obvious; So it sells better than it would otherwise.

    You're also assuming it would be costly to make Cathay. I see it as actually pretty darn easy and cheap. The lore we have on them outlines a decent roster. even ignoring what GW might have that it didn't release they could easily make a roster from that with a couple additions. 2 LL's, 2 Heroes, 20ish units of mostly humans and Cavalry.
    How are they hypothetically cheap? They might actually be the most expensive one, as CA would need to draw up new concept arts, work in tandem with GW for approval and even design the culture from the ground up. Then it also needs its own unique campaign mechanics like any other faction and presumably a large dose of monstrous units to set it apart from the other human factions. Even its map-locations need to be fleshed-out. So, no, it will most certainly not be cheap if it's included at all. Almost everything needs to be made from scratch, no models for inspiration, nothing.

    It's just not happening with CA's recent statements and the like. They're far too busy with the core stuff, and even that's far from finished.
    I'm confused. You ask how they can be cheap then claim they need a "large dose of monstrous units", something they absolutely don't. If you add expensive things into a roster of course it'll be expensive. As to your question I answered it in the comment you quoted.

    Yes they need to draw up concepts but that's how CA works, everything gets a concept. And they've just spent years working on Fantasy China. It's hardly a new or unfamiliar concept for them. Mechanics, CA's got a library of them now, pick a couple. And the map? It should extend to Cathay at the minimum anyway. Game 2 covered half the world, I don't see why game 3 can't cover a much smaller portion of the world than game 2.
    Half of the written inspiration for Cathay comes from the Tamurkhan book mentioning lots of monstrous units, like Oni-like Ogres, Raven statues, Jade warriors, Heavenly dragons, etc. Also, 3K art is not applicable to Warhammer and the concept art of other established factions is based on the miniatures (they paint themself) and art of GW, making the work a bit easier for them as there already are concept arts to work with.

    Cathay doesn't have that. And we haven't even been promised the full map (which is ludicrous, anyway).
    Do them with 2 LLs, 2 heroes, 20ish units, 2-3 monster units. Jade Warriors are literally human shaped warriors, they've got lots of human shaped warrior assets. Throw in some mechanics and bing bang papa shango there's Cathay.

    Correct, 3K isn't Warhammer. It is however fantasy China. CA literally have current experience working on fantasy China. It's pretty easy to see how that's transferable to working on fantasy China even if they can't reuse the assets.
    I apologize in for everything I say till around 29/04
  • FerestorFerestor Registered Users Posts: 623

    JungleElf said:

    JungleElf said:

    ROMOBOY said:

    ROMOBOY said:

    I’m pretty sure Chinese people don’t need to see their culture given the Warhammer treatment to buy the game. I’ve never understood this concept.

    "need" vs "want". And "buy" vs "buy in larger numbers".

    Whether or not you personally agree with the concept I think in general the idea that people are more likely to purchase a game if they can see themselves in it. Certainly it's something that's been around for decades. More specific to China I can certainly see it. I'd be interested to know the cold, hard data, but from what I know of China I can definitely see Cathay drawing more numbers than it otherwise would.
    Okay but let’s think about it this way. Are they (with GW’s approval) willing to spend a large amount of money and time in making an entire race from the ground up, just for the chance of attracting more Chinese consumers? It’s already gonna sell well in China. So what’s the point?
    What's the point? I thought that was fairly obvious; So it sells better than it would otherwise.

    You're also assuming it would be costly to make Cathay. I see it as actually pretty darn easy and cheap. The lore we have on them outlines a decent roster. even ignoring what GW might have that it didn't release they could easily make a roster from that with a couple additions. 2 LL's, 2 Heroes, 20ish units of mostly humans and Cavalry.
    How are they hypothetically cheap? They might actually be the most expensive one, as CA would need to draw up new concept arts, work in tandem with GW for approval and even design the culture from the ground up. Then it also needs its own unique campaign mechanics like any other faction and presumably a large dose of monstrous units to set it apart from the other human factions. Even its map-locations need to be fleshed-out. So, no, it will most certainly not be cheap if it's included at all. Almost everything needs to be made from scratch, no models for inspiration, nothing.

    It's just not happening with CA's recent statements and the like. They're far too busy with the core stuff, and even that's far from finished.
    I'm confused. You ask how they can be cheap then claim they need a "large dose of monstrous units", something they absolutely don't. If you add expensive things into a roster of course it'll be expensive. As to your question I answered it in the comment you quoted.

    Yes they need to draw up concepts but that's how CA works, everything gets a concept. And they've just spent years working on Fantasy China. It's hardly a new or unfamiliar concept for them. Mechanics, CA's got a library of them now, pick a couple. And the map? It should extend to Cathay at the minimum anyway. Game 2 covered half the world, I don't see why game 3 can't cover a much smaller portion of the world than game 2.
    Half of the written inspiration for Cathay comes from the Tamurkhan book mentioning lots of monstrous units, like Oni-like Ogres, Raven statues, Jade warriors, Heavenly dragons, etc. Also, 3K art is not applicable to Warhammer and the concept art of other established factions is based on the miniatures (they paint themself) and art of GW, making the work a bit easier for them as there already are concept arts to work with.

    Cathay doesn't have that. And we haven't even been promised the full map (which is ludicrous, anyway).
    Do them with 2 LLs, 2 heroes, 20ish units, 2-3 monster units. Jade Warriors are literally human shaped warriors, they've got lots of human shaped warrior assets.

    Correct, 3K isn't Warhammer. It is however fantasy China. CA literally have current experience working on fantasy China. It's pretty easy to see how that's transferable to working on fantasy China even if they can't reuse the assets.
    CA stated that they don't want to do more 2 LL race packs. So 4 LL is the number we should expect.
  • JungleElfJungleElf Registered Users Posts: 3,906
    edited December 2020

    JungleElf said:

    JungleElf said:

    ROMOBOY said:

    ROMOBOY said:

    I’m pretty sure Chinese people don’t need to see their culture given the Warhammer treatment to buy the game. I’ve never understood this concept.

    "need" vs "want". And "buy" vs "buy in larger numbers".

    Whether or not you personally agree with the concept I think in general the idea that people are more likely to purchase a game if they can see themselves in it. Certainly it's something that's been around for decades. More specific to China I can certainly see it. I'd be interested to know the cold, hard data, but from what I know of China I can definitely see Cathay drawing more numbers than it otherwise would.
    Okay but let’s think about it this way. Are they (with GW’s approval) willing to spend a large amount of money and time in making an entire race from the ground up, just for the chance of attracting more Chinese consumers? It’s already gonna sell well in China. So what’s the point?
    What's the point? I thought that was fairly obvious; So it sells better than it would otherwise.

    You're also assuming it would be costly to make Cathay. I see it as actually pretty darn easy and cheap. The lore we have on them outlines a decent roster. even ignoring what GW might have that it didn't release they could easily make a roster from that with a couple additions. 2 LL's, 2 Heroes, 20ish units of mostly humans and Cavalry.
    How are they hypothetically cheap? They might actually be the most expensive one, as CA would need to draw up new concept arts, work in tandem with GW for approval and even design the culture from the ground up. Then it also needs its own unique campaign mechanics like any other faction and presumably a large dose of monstrous units to set it apart from the other human factions. Even its map-locations need to be fleshed-out. So, no, it will most certainly not be cheap if it's included at all. Almost everything needs to be made from scratch, no models for inspiration, nothing.

    It's just not happening with CA's recent statements and the like. They're far too busy with the core stuff, and even that's far from finished.
    I'm confused. You ask how they can be cheap then claim they need a "large dose of monstrous units", something they absolutely don't. If you add expensive things into a roster of course it'll be expensive. As to your question I answered it in the comment you quoted.

    Yes they need to draw up concepts but that's how CA works, everything gets a concept. And they've just spent years working on Fantasy China. It's hardly a new or unfamiliar concept for them. Mechanics, CA's got a library of them now, pick a couple. And the map? It should extend to Cathay at the minimum anyway. Game 2 covered half the world, I don't see why game 3 can't cover a much smaller portion of the world than game 2.
    Half of the written inspiration for Cathay comes from the Tamurkhan book mentioning lots of monstrous units, like Oni-like Ogres, Raven statues, Jade warriors, Heavenly dragons, etc. Also, 3K art is not applicable to Warhammer and the concept art of other established factions is based on the miniatures (they paint themself) and art of GW, making the work a bit easier for them as there already are concept arts to work with.

    Cathay doesn't have that. And we haven't even been promised the full map (which is ludicrous, anyway).
    Do them with 2 LLs, 2 heroes, 20ish units, 2-3 monster units. Jade Warriors are literally human shaped warriors, they've got lots of human shaped warrior assets.

    Correct, 3K isn't Warhammer. It is however fantasy China. CA literally have current experience working on fantasy China. It's pretty easy to see how that's transferable to working on fantasy China even if they can't reuse the assets.
    Again, you're really downplaying the work it would cost and not even tackling the work needed to flesh them out on the map, the culture, etc. 2-3 monstrous units is not cheap, and the faction would probably need some new skeleton-frames for its units. They can't be all copypasted, as that would mean it's a simple reskin faction.

    CA uses miniatures and lorebooks/armybooks for its inspiration, Cathay has a severe lack of those. Work on 3K can be impossibly copied to Warhammer.

    That, coupled with the statements made by CA regarding new original content, makes it very hard for Cathay.
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 10,054
    edited December 2020
    JungleElf said:

    JungleElf said:

    ROMOBOY said:

    ROMOBOY said:

    I’m pretty sure Chinese people don’t need to see their culture given the Warhammer treatment to buy the game. I’ve never understood this concept.

    "need" vs "want". And "buy" vs "buy in larger numbers".

    Whether or not you personally agree with the concept I think in general the idea that people are more likely to purchase a game if they can see themselves in it. Certainly it's something that's been around for decades. More specific to China I can certainly see it. I'd be interested to know the cold, hard data, but from what I know of China I can definitely see Cathay drawing more numbers than it otherwise would.
    Okay but let’s think about it this way. Are they (with GW’s approval) willing to spend a large amount of money and time in making an entire race from the ground up, just for the chance of attracting more Chinese consumers? It’s already gonna sell well in China. So what’s the point?
    What's the point? I thought that was fairly obvious; So it sells better than it would otherwise.

    You're also assuming it would be costly to make Cathay. I see it as actually pretty darn easy and cheap. The lore we have on them outlines a decent roster. even ignoring what GW might have that it didn't release they could easily make a roster from that with a couple additions. 2 LL's, 2 Heroes, 20ish units of mostly humans and Cavalry.
    How are they hypothetically cheap? They might actually be the most expensive one, as CA would need to draw up new concept arts, work in tandem with GW for approval and even design the culture from the ground up. Then it also needs its own unique campaign mechanics like any other faction and presumably a large dose of monstrous units to set it apart from the other human factions. Even its map-locations need to be fleshed-out. So, no, it will most certainly not be cheap if it's included at all. Almost everything needs to be made from scratch, no models for inspiration, nothing.

    It's just not happening with CA's recent statements and the like. They're far too busy with the core stuff, and even that's far from finished.
    I'm confused. You ask how they can be cheap then claim they need a "large dose of monstrous units", something they absolutely don't. If you add expensive things into a roster of course it'll be expensive. As to your question I answered it in the comment you quoted.

    Yes they need to draw up concepts but that's how CA works, everything gets a concept. And they've just spent years working on Fantasy China. It's hardly a new or unfamiliar concept for them. Mechanics, CA's got a library of them now, pick a couple. And the map? It should extend to Cathay at the minimum anyway. Game 2 covered half the world, I don't see why game 3 can't cover a much smaller portion of the world than game 2.
    Half of the written inspiration for Cathay comes from the Tamurkhan book mentioning lots of monstrous units, like Oni-like Ogres, Raven statues, Jade warriors, Heavenly dragons, etc. Also, 3K art is not applicable to Warhammer and the concept art of other established factions is based on the miniatures (they paint themself) and art of GW, making the work a bit easier for them as there already are concept arts to work with.

    Cathay doesn't have that. And we haven't even been promised the full map (which is ludicrous, anyway).

    You're really downplaying the work it would cost. A lot.
    From an animation perspective, possibly not. What we're looking at are likely things that can be modelled on existing rigs - ogres (will be needed for Ogre Kingdoms anyway), birdlike winged humanoid (between harpies, Furies, and the Lord of Change, there'd be something), terracotta soldiers would be on a humanoid rig (not sure where you're getting jade warriors from) and dragons would probably use the dragon rig, maybe with the wings removed but GW never established that Far East dragons were wingless as far as I recall. From an animation perspective, there are races they've already done, and daemons yet to come, that probably required more.

    There is the element that they don't have official models available, nor is there much publicly-released art, but CA does do their own concept art. The concept stage certainly would be more involved than it has been with previous races, but I don't think having a little more trial and error at the concept art stage is going to break the budget. What seems to eat up the Charlemagnes are unique rigs with complex animations, and I don't see much potential for those in what we know of the Cathayan forces.
  • ArneSoArneSo Hamburg, Germany Registered Users Posts: 20,130
    ROMOBOY said:

    I’m pretty sure Chinese people don’t need to see their culture given the Warhammer treatment to buy the game. I’ve never understood this concept.

    Most Chinese people are not interested in western fantasy or history. TW:3k underlines that perfectly.
    Nurgle is love, Nurgle is life
  • JungleElfJungleElf Registered Users Posts: 3,906
    Draxynnic said:

    JungleElf said:

    JungleElf said:

    ROMOBOY said:

    ROMOBOY said:

    I’m pretty sure Chinese people don’t need to see their culture given the Warhammer treatment to buy the game. I’ve never understood this concept.

    "need" vs "want". And "buy" vs "buy in larger numbers".

    Whether or not you personally agree with the concept I think in general the idea that people are more likely to purchase a game if they can see themselves in it. Certainly it's something that's been around for decades. More specific to China I can certainly see it. I'd be interested to know the cold, hard data, but from what I know of China I can definitely see Cathay drawing more numbers than it otherwise would.
    Okay but let’s think about it this way. Are they (with GW’s approval) willing to spend a large amount of money and time in making an entire race from the ground up, just for the chance of attracting more Chinese consumers? It’s already gonna sell well in China. So what’s the point?
    What's the point? I thought that was fairly obvious; So it sells better than it would otherwise.

    You're also assuming it would be costly to make Cathay. I see it as actually pretty darn easy and cheap. The lore we have on them outlines a decent roster. even ignoring what GW might have that it didn't release they could easily make a roster from that with a couple additions. 2 LL's, 2 Heroes, 20ish units of mostly humans and Cavalry.
    How are they hypothetically cheap? They might actually be the most expensive one, as CA would need to draw up new concept arts, work in tandem with GW for approval and even design the culture from the ground up. Then it also needs its own unique campaign mechanics like any other faction and presumably a large dose of monstrous units to set it apart from the other human factions. Even its map-locations need to be fleshed-out. So, no, it will most certainly not be cheap if it's included at all. Almost everything needs to be made from scratch, no models for inspiration, nothing.

    It's just not happening with CA's recent statements and the like. They're far too busy with the core stuff, and even that's far from finished.
    I'm confused. You ask how they can be cheap then claim they need a "large dose of monstrous units", something they absolutely don't. If you add expensive things into a roster of course it'll be expensive. As to your question I answered it in the comment you quoted.

    Yes they need to draw up concepts but that's how CA works, everything gets a concept. And they've just spent years working on Fantasy China. It's hardly a new or unfamiliar concept for them. Mechanics, CA's got a library of them now, pick a couple. And the map? It should extend to Cathay at the minimum anyway. Game 2 covered half the world, I don't see why game 3 can't cover a much smaller portion of the world than game 2.
    Half of the written inspiration for Cathay comes from the Tamurkhan book mentioning lots of monstrous units, like Oni-like Ogres, Raven statues, Jade warriors, Heavenly dragons, etc. Also, 3K art is not applicable to Warhammer and the concept art of other established factions is based on the miniatures (they paint themself) and art of GW, making the work a bit easier for them as there already are concept arts to work with.

    Cathay doesn't have that. And we haven't even been promised the full map (which is ludicrous, anyway).

    You're really downplaying the work it would cost. A lot.
    From an animation perspective, possibly not. What we're looking at are likely things that can be modelled on existing rigs - ogres (will be needed for Ogre Kingdoms anyway), birdlike winged humanoid (between harpies, Furies, and the Lord of Change, there'd be something), terracotta soldiers would be on a humanoid rig (not sure where you're getting jade warriors from) and dragons would probably use the dragon rig, maybe with the wings removed but GW never established that Far East dragons were wingless as far as I recall. From an animation perspective, there are races they've already done, and daemons yet to come, that probably required more.

    There is the element that they don't have official models available, nor is there much publicly-released art, but CA does do their own concept art. The concept stage certainly would be more involved than it has been with previous races, but I don't think having a little more trial and error at the concept art stage is going to break the budget. What seems to eat up the Charlemagnes are unique rigs with complex animations, and I don't see much potential for those in what we know of the Cathayan forces.
    It would be a cheap rip-off it if was just an army of reskins. I also don't think half of those proposed reskins you wrote are that obvious. Anyway, GW would need to be heavily involved, costing a lot more. CA's statements on 'original' content are ignored by you, as well.
  • WyvaxWyvax Registered Users Posts: 4,176
    ArneSo said:

    ROMOBOY said:

    I’m pretty sure Chinese people don’t need to see their culture given the Warhammer treatment to buy the game. I’ve never understood this concept.

    Most Chinese people are not interested in western fantasy or history. TW:3k underlines that perfectly.
    While I agree that the Chinese culture at large is extremely dismissive of ideas and people not native to it, I'd say the disparity between 3K and the other TW titles has to do with the sheer popularity of the Romance of the Three Kingdoms itself. It's basically their Odyssey, the Legend of King Arthur and the complete works of Shakespeare all rolled up into one, as far as how important it's considered to their culture.
    Tomes read: The Great Betrayal, Master of Dragons, Curse of the Phoenix Crown, Trollslayer, Skavenslayer, Daemonslayer, Dragonslayer, Beastslayer, Vampireslayer, Malekith, The Bloody Handed, Shadow King
    Bring back proper naval battles CA!!!
    Me when I see a LL character implemented as a LH.

  • sykallsykall Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,264
    edited December 2020
    ROMOBOY said:

    JungleElf said:

    aMint1 said:

    The question was whether you could see why adding parts of a culture to something increases the interest in that to people from that region.

    Do you think TW:3K sold, by %, the same volume in China vs TW:Empire? What about vice versa for people from the US? Do you think there was no appreciable uptick in TW sales in Japan when they made Shogun?

    The cultural impact of 3K can't be possibly compared to the stereotypical setting of Cathay.

    3K is Chinese literature which has been known for hundreds of years.
    ^this
    @aMint1

    Not to mention, I’m pretty sure Shogun 2 sold better in the U.S. than Empire. Despite being a game surrounded by a totally different culture.

    Also, what you’re suggesting may actually have an opposite effect. People want something “fresh” when they watch a movie or play a game. If everything I consumed was the same culture, it’d be bland and boring.
    Oh yes. As a european I am so sick of games set in medival europe or fantasy medival europe. Its been done to death years ago...
    Thats why I enjoy lustria and the southland so much and whish GWs would have given the areas outside of the old world more attention.
    And I dearly hope that the far east will at one point be playable in TWWH
    Post edited by sykall on
  • ArneSoArneSo Hamburg, Germany Registered Users Posts: 20,130
    Wyvax said:

    ArneSo said:

    ROMOBOY said:

    I’m pretty sure Chinese people don’t need to see their culture given the Warhammer treatment to buy the game. I’ve never understood this concept.

    Most Chinese people are not interested in western fantasy or history. TW:3k underlines that perfectly.
    While I agree that the Chinese culture at large is extremely dismissive of ideas and people not native to it, I'd say the disparity between 3K and the other TW titles has to do with the sheer popularity of the Romance of the Three Kingdoms itself. It's basically their Odyssey, the Legend of King Arthur and the complete works of Shakespeare all rolled up into one, as far as how important it's considered to their culture.
    It’s a cultural difference. Westerners are way more tolerant to foreign history and fantasy than Chinese People who Are mainly interested in Chinese history or fantasy.

    I don’t want to go to deep into that topic now but that’s something I experienced when living in Asia.

    LotR and GoT are completely unknown in Asia and the people also don’t care about Romans, Spartans, Vikings, Knights, Aztecs or anything else that is not related to China and its history or culture.

    If you as a game developer like CA want to enter the Chinese marked to have to pick up the customers and give them something they can relate to. Cathay would do that.

    Without Cathay, CA and GW won’t be able to enter the Chinese marked to a level where it is profitable.
    Nurgle is love, Nurgle is life
  • WarriorofahuraWarriorofahura Registered Users Posts: 144
    ArneSo said:

    Wyvax said:

    ArneSo said:

    ROMOBOY said:

    I’m pretty sure Chinese people don’t need to see their culture given the Warhammer treatment to buy the game. I’ve never understood this concept.

    Most Chinese people are not interested in western fantasy or history. TW:3k underlines that perfectly.
    While I agree that the Chinese culture at large is extremely dismissive of ideas and people not native to it, I'd say the disparity between 3K and the other TW titles has to do with the sheer popularity of the Romance of the Three Kingdoms itself. It's basically their Odyssey, the Legend of King Arthur and the complete works of Shakespeare all rolled up into one, as far as how important it's considered to their culture.
    It’s a cultural difference. Westerners are way more tolerant to foreign history and fantasy than Chinese People who Are mainly interested in Chinese history or fantasy.

    I don’t want to go to deep into that topic now but that’s something I experienced when living in Asia.

    LotR and GoT are completely unknown in Asia and the people also don’t care about Romans, Spartans, Vikings, Knights, Aztecs or anything else that is not related to China and its history or culture.

    If you as a game developer like CA want to enter the Chinese marked to have to pick up the customers and give them something they can relate to. Cathay would do that.

    Without Cathay, CA and GW won’t be able to enter the Chinese marked to a level where it is profitable.
    By asia you mean, east asia?? Cause LOTR, GOAT , Romans, vikings and these stuff are like super popular in iran atleast
  • ArneSoArneSo Hamburg, Germany Registered Users Posts: 20,130

    ArneSo said:

    Wyvax said:

    ArneSo said:

    ROMOBOY said:

    I’m pretty sure Chinese people don’t need to see their culture given the Warhammer treatment to buy the game. I’ve never understood this concept.

    Most Chinese people are not interested in western fantasy or history. TW:3k underlines that perfectly.
    While I agree that the Chinese culture at large is extremely dismissive of ideas and people not native to it, I'd say the disparity between 3K and the other TW titles has to do with the sheer popularity of the Romance of the Three Kingdoms itself. It's basically their Odyssey, the Legend of King Arthur and the complete works of Shakespeare all rolled up into one, as far as how important it's considered to their culture.
    It’s a cultural difference. Westerners are way more tolerant to foreign history and fantasy than Chinese People who Are mainly interested in Chinese history or fantasy.

    I don’t want to go to deep into that topic now but that’s something I experienced when living in Asia.

    LotR and GoT are completely unknown in Asia and the people also don’t care about Romans, Spartans, Vikings, Knights, Aztecs or anything else that is not related to China and its history or culture.

    If you as a game developer like CA want to enter the Chinese marked to have to pick up the customers and give them something they can relate to. Cathay would do that.

    Without Cathay, CA and GW won’t be able to enter the Chinese marked to a level where it is profitable.
    By asia you mean, east asia?? Cause LOTR, GOAT , Romans, vikings and these stuff are like super popular in iran atleast
    Yes sorry I meant East Asia.
    Nurgle is love, Nurgle is life
  • HighPriest_AstragothHighPriest_Astragoth Registered Users Posts: 392
    ROMOBOY said:

    I’m pretty sure Chinese people don’t need to see their culture given the Warhammer treatment to buy the game. I’ve never understood this concept.

    I haven't read the whole thread, I apologies for that. but im in a bit of a rush.

    I remember over a decade ago, this Warhammer event, cosplayers I think is the word, and oh my Hashut, was it GOOD. I was rather new with the hobby, so I was kinda left unsure what all I was seeing, but man was it cool, near the end, and I mean the very end of all the pictures and videos(YouTube had them back then, but YouTube was, a much different company then, Im unsure if they are still hosted), I found out the cosplayers were all Chinese! HAH! I swear they looked the part(European, please don't start any debate on this, I mean nothing political, but both settings were very Eurocentric back then). I found out the Chinese and Japanese were into Warhammer, especially China, and Korea and even Mongolia was getting into it too! How awesome is that?

    Then Gamesworkshop did something awful, while trying to do something right, they created "Asians in Space", aka, shortsighted, short heighted, physically weak, slanted eyed, who go around spreading the "Greater Good" incorporating other xeno species, rather through force, or treaties, they also moved their own people into said allies land and in some cases, out breed them, sometimes from chemically castrating species they saw as breeding to quickly, they had to rely on their superior technology just to compete and could lose a melee fight to a goblin, oh and they had Gundams, a caste system, and- I think you are getting the idea, and if not, a picture is worth a thousand words.

    FYI I played the Tau Empire, Farsight Enclaves mind you, as I wanted melee gundams, but the point to this is, it backfired and bad, nearly all Games Workshop shops in Japan had to close, as their customers seemed to be, rather offended, and the military base alone wasn't enough income to keep a profit.

    The point here is, Cathay, sure I would love to see it, but don't force it, people from all over the world love Warhammer, ill have you know, the Russians, the damn Russians are the BIGGEST cosplayers of, drum roll please... The Empire, they even made their own functioning Steam Tank, no joke go look it up, so yeah, if the Not-Kislev guys would favor The Not-Holy Roman Empire(Deus Lo Vult my fellow Teutonic brother, shall we go convert the Orthodox Heretics, Ja?) for cosplay, why wouldn't the Not-Cathay favor them too?



    So I guess in short what I am trying to say is, add Cathay, sure, but don't just add it for the Chinese Market, do that and you will most likely repeat the mistake of the past, also don't go putting it on a pedestal, Cathay should be apart of the Warhammer Fantasy Setting, and not appear as if it would better fit in a different setting, don't leave other factions out to dry which have existed for 30+Years(established 1983), do the setting justice as a whole, and add Cathay as a piece of the puzzle, and not a separate piece which would look like it belonged to a chess game instead, and I promise you, you will get the Chinese Market, but now you will also grabbed more of a lasting appeal, and it will spread to other parts of SEA, and generate a lasting fanbase for both Creative Assembly and Games Workshop.

    P,S, try not to follow Blizzards approach please
  • Phoenix99Phoenix99 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,061
    Btw, is TW:WH series available at all in China?
  • ArneSoArneSo Hamburg, Germany Registered Users Posts: 20,130
    Phoenix99 said:

    Btw, is TW:WH series available at all in China?

    Not sure to be honest. Skeletons and Zombies are forbidden in China so not sure. Other East Asian countries don’t have these regulations as far as I know.

    Nurgle is love, Nurgle is life
  • LunaticprinceLunaticprince Registered Users Posts: 2,226
    edited December 2020
    The literally only thing CA could do with 3k as asset for them is literally the lord animation.

    Because the are so over the top they would fit warhammer just fine.

    But else no, CA have to remodel, do voice work, invent lore, do asthetic for towns.

    Have to do the most creatures and construct from scratch, and make at least 4 legendary Lords happen with dlc and flc material.

    Yes yes few put out (just the dlc team say they not want to try it again in any future)

    But here comes the point of the flawed logic.

    WHO all thinking gonna do the LORD PACKS?

    YES exactly the dlc team! behind the lordpacks and the campagne packs.

    So if Cathay not come as core they really not come at all, not as dlc or other things.


    I can imagine they maybe try another "oc" chrachter when they want to flesh out lets big faction in game three.

    But literally pull out a core race where they have to invent everything by themself and gw.

    I really not see happening.
  • Rob18446Rob18446 Registered Users Posts: 1,376
    ArneSo said:

    Wyvax said:

    ArneSo said:

    ROMOBOY said:

    I’m pretty sure Chinese people don’t need to see their culture given the Warhammer treatment to buy the game. I’ve never understood this concept.

    Most Chinese people are not interested in western fantasy or history. TW:3k underlines that perfectly.
    While I agree that the Chinese culture at large is extremely dismissive of ideas and people not native to it, I'd say the disparity between 3K and the other TW titles has to do with the sheer popularity of the Romance of the Three Kingdoms itself. It's basically their Odyssey, the Legend of King Arthur and the complete works of Shakespeare all rolled up into one, as far as how important it's considered to their culture.
    It’s a cultural difference. Westerners are way more tolerant to foreign history and fantasy than Chinese People who Are mainly interested in Chinese history or fantasy.

    I don’t want to go to deep into that topic now but that’s something I experienced when living in Asia.

    LotR and GoT are completely unknown in Asia and the people also don’t care about Romans, Spartans, Vikings, Knights, Aztecs or anything else that is not related to China and its history or culture.

    If you as a game developer like CA want to enter the Chinese marked to have to pick up the customers and give them something they can relate to. Cathay would do that.

    Without Cathay, CA and GW won’t be able to enter the Chinese marked to a level where it is profitable.
    Here's the thing, you're missing what the target audience of TWWH is which is "whales". They dont care about breaking into a new foreign market who are only going to buy WH3 and leave it at that, they want customers who are going to buy every single piece of content they release, which is us, Warhammer fans. All they need to do is keep releasing warhammer content and they're basically printing money, no need to waste time and resources on trying to create something completely from scratch.
  • ArneSoArneSo Hamburg, Germany Registered Users Posts: 20,130
    Rob18446 said:

    ArneSo said:

    Wyvax said:

    ArneSo said:

    ROMOBOY said:

    I’m pretty sure Chinese people don’t need to see their culture given the Warhammer treatment to buy the game. I’ve never understood this concept.

    Most Chinese people are not interested in western fantasy or history. TW:3k underlines that perfectly.
    While I agree that the Chinese culture at large is extremely dismissive of ideas and people not native to it, I'd say the disparity between 3K and the other TW titles has to do with the sheer popularity of the Romance of the Three Kingdoms itself. It's basically their Odyssey, the Legend of King Arthur and the complete works of Shakespeare all rolled up into one, as far as how important it's considered to their culture.
    It’s a cultural difference. Westerners are way more tolerant to foreign history and fantasy than Chinese People who Are mainly interested in Chinese history or fantasy.

    I don’t want to go to deep into that topic now but that’s something I experienced when living in Asia.

    LotR and GoT are completely unknown in Asia and the people also don’t care about Romans, Spartans, Vikings, Knights, Aztecs or anything else that is not related to China and its history or culture.

    If you as a game developer like CA want to enter the Chinese marked to have to pick up the customers and give them something they can relate to. Cathay would do that.

    Without Cathay, CA and GW won’t be able to enter the Chinese marked to a level where it is profitable.
    Here's the thing, you're missing what the target audience of TWWH is which is "whales". They dont care about breaking into a new foreign market who are only going to buy WH3 and leave it at that, they want customers who are going to buy every single piece of content they release, which is us, Warhammer fans. All they need to do is keep releasing warhammer content and they're basically printing money, no need to waste time and resources on trying to create something completely from scratch.
    That’s wrong. The main audience of TWWH players are not WH fans in the first place and never played TT. The majority are casual players with very little knowledge about Warhammer.
    Nurgle is love, Nurgle is life
  • jdidjdjjdidjdj Registered Users Posts: 96
  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Registered Users Posts: 24,886
    edited December 2020
    JungleElf said:

    JungleElf said:

    JungleElf said:

    ROMOBOY said:

    ROMOBOY said:

    I’m pretty sure Chinese people don’t need to see their culture given the Warhammer treatment to buy the game. I’ve never understood this concept.

    "need" vs "want". And "buy" vs "buy in larger numbers".

    Whether or not you personally agree with the concept I think in general the idea that people are more likely to purchase a game if they can see themselves in it. Certainly it's something that's been around for decades. More specific to China I can certainly see it. I'd be interested to know the cold, hard data, but from what I know of China I can definitely see Cathay drawing more numbers than it otherwise would.
    Okay but let’s think about it this way. Are they (with GW’s approval) willing to spend a large amount of money and time in making an entire race from the ground up, just for the chance of attracting more Chinese consumers? It’s already gonna sell well in China. So what’s the point?
    What's the point? I thought that was fairly obvious; So it sells better than it would otherwise.

    You're also assuming it would be costly to make Cathay. I see it as actually pretty darn easy and cheap. The lore we have on them outlines a decent roster. even ignoring what GW might have that it didn't release they could easily make a roster from that with a couple additions. 2 LL's, 2 Heroes, 20ish units of mostly humans and Cavalry.
    How are they hypothetically cheap? They might actually be the most expensive one, as CA would need to draw up new concept arts, work in tandem with GW for approval and even design the culture from the ground up. Then it also needs its own unique campaign mechanics like any other faction and presumably a large dose of monstrous units to set it apart from the other human factions. Even its map-locations need to be fleshed-out. So, no, it will most certainly not be cheap if it's included at all. Almost everything needs to be made from scratch, no models for inspiration, nothing.

    It's just not happening with CA's recent statements and the like. They're far too busy with the core stuff, and even that's far from finished.
    I'm confused. You ask how they can be cheap then claim they need a "large dose of monstrous units", something they absolutely don't. If you add expensive things into a roster of course it'll be expensive. As to your question I answered it in the comment you quoted.

    Yes they need to draw up concepts but that's how CA works, everything gets a concept. And they've just spent years working on Fantasy China. It's hardly a new or unfamiliar concept for them. Mechanics, CA's got a library of them now, pick a couple. And the map? It should extend to Cathay at the minimum anyway. Game 2 covered half the world, I don't see why game 3 can't cover a much smaller portion of the world than game 2.
    Half of the written inspiration for Cathay comes from the Tamurkhan book mentioning lots of monstrous units, like Oni-like Ogres, Raven statues, Jade warriors, Heavenly dragons, etc. Also, 3K art is not applicable to Warhammer and the concept art of other established factions is based on the miniatures (they paint themself) and art of GW, making the work a bit easier for them as there already are concept arts to work with.

    Cathay doesn't have that. And we haven't even been promised the full map (which is ludicrous, anyway).
    Do them with 2 LLs, 2 heroes, 20ish units, 2-3 monster units. Jade Warriors are literally human shaped warriors, they've got lots of human shaped warrior assets.

    Correct, 3K isn't Warhammer. It is however fantasy China. CA literally have current experience working on fantasy China. It's pretty easy to see how that's transferable to working on fantasy China even if they can't reuse the assets.
    Again, you're really downplaying the work it would cost and not even tackling the work needed to flesh them out on the map, the culture, etc. 2-3 monstrous units is not cheap, and the faction would probably need some new skeleton-frames for its units. They can't be all copypasted, as that would mean it's a simple reskin faction.

    CA uses miniatures and lorebooks/armybooks for its inspiration, Cathay has a severe lack of those. Work on 3K can be impossibly copied to Warhammer.

    That, coupled with the statements made by CA regarding new original content, makes it very hard for Cathay.
    Half the content, half the cost. It's simple logic.

    CA hasn't said anything about Cathay. If anything the Mobile games Developers recent comment on it make it more likely.
    I apologize in for everything I say till around 29/04
  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Registered Users Posts: 24,886
    Ferestor said:

    JungleElf said:

    JungleElf said:

    ROMOBOY said:

    ROMOBOY said:

    I’m pretty sure Chinese people don’t need to see their culture given the Warhammer treatment to buy the game. I’ve never understood this concept.

    "need" vs "want". And "buy" vs "buy in larger numbers".

    Whether or not you personally agree with the concept I think in general the idea that people are more likely to purchase a game if they can see themselves in it. Certainly it's something that's been around for decades. More specific to China I can certainly see it. I'd be interested to know the cold, hard data, but from what I know of China I can definitely see Cathay drawing more numbers than it otherwise would.
    Okay but let’s think about it this way. Are they (with GW’s approval) willing to spend a large amount of money and time in making an entire race from the ground up, just for the chance of attracting more Chinese consumers? It’s already gonna sell well in China. So what’s the point?
    What's the point? I thought that was fairly obvious; So it sells better than it would otherwise.

    You're also assuming it would be costly to make Cathay. I see it as actually pretty darn easy and cheap. The lore we have on them outlines a decent roster. even ignoring what GW might have that it didn't release they could easily make a roster from that with a couple additions. 2 LL's, 2 Heroes, 20ish units of mostly humans and Cavalry.
    How are they hypothetically cheap? They might actually be the most expensive one, as CA would need to draw up new concept arts, work in tandem with GW for approval and even design the culture from the ground up. Then it also needs its own unique campaign mechanics like any other faction and presumably a large dose of monstrous units to set it apart from the other human factions. Even its map-locations need to be fleshed-out. So, no, it will most certainly not be cheap if it's included at all. Almost everything needs to be made from scratch, no models for inspiration, nothing.

    It's just not happening with CA's recent statements and the like. They're far too busy with the core stuff, and even that's far from finished.
    I'm confused. You ask how they can be cheap then claim they need a "large dose of monstrous units", something they absolutely don't. If you add expensive things into a roster of course it'll be expensive. As to your question I answered it in the comment you quoted.

    Yes they need to draw up concepts but that's how CA works, everything gets a concept. And they've just spent years working on Fantasy China. It's hardly a new or unfamiliar concept for them. Mechanics, CA's got a library of them now, pick a couple. And the map? It should extend to Cathay at the minimum anyway. Game 2 covered half the world, I don't see why game 3 can't cover a much smaller portion of the world than game 2.
    Half of the written inspiration for Cathay comes from the Tamurkhan book mentioning lots of monstrous units, like Oni-like Ogres, Raven statues, Jade warriors, Heavenly dragons, etc. Also, 3K art is not applicable to Warhammer and the concept art of other established factions is based on the miniatures (they paint themself) and art of GW, making the work a bit easier for them as there already are concept arts to work with.

    Cathay doesn't have that. And we haven't even been promised the full map (which is ludicrous, anyway).
    Do them with 2 LLs, 2 heroes, 20ish units, 2-3 monster units. Jade Warriors are literally human shaped warriors, they've got lots of human shaped warrior assets.

    Correct, 3K isn't Warhammer. It is however fantasy China. CA literally have current experience working on fantasy China. It's pretty easy to see how that's transferable to working on fantasy China even if they can't reuse the assets.
    CA stated that they don't want to do more 2 LL race packs. So 4 LL is the number we should expect.
    It wouldn't be a Race Pack it'd be a 5th or 6th bonus race.
    I apologize in for everything I say till around 29/04
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 10,054
    JungleElf said:

    Draxynnic said:

    JungleElf said:

    JungleElf said:

    ROMOBOY said:

    ROMOBOY said:

    I’m pretty sure Chinese people don’t need to see their culture given the Warhammer treatment to buy the game. I’ve never understood this concept.

    "need" vs "want". And "buy" vs "buy in larger numbers".

    Whether or not you personally agree with the concept I think in general the idea that people are more likely to purchase a game if they can see themselves in it. Certainly it's something that's been around for decades. More specific to China I can certainly see it. I'd be interested to know the cold, hard data, but from what I know of China I can definitely see Cathay drawing more numbers than it otherwise would.
    Okay but let’s think about it this way. Are they (with GW’s approval) willing to spend a large amount of money and time in making an entire race from the ground up, just for the chance of attracting more Chinese consumers? It’s already gonna sell well in China. So what’s the point?
    What's the point? I thought that was fairly obvious; So it sells better than it would otherwise.

    You're also assuming it would be costly to make Cathay. I see it as actually pretty darn easy and cheap. The lore we have on them outlines a decent roster. even ignoring what GW might have that it didn't release they could easily make a roster from that with a couple additions. 2 LL's, 2 Heroes, 20ish units of mostly humans and Cavalry.
    How are they hypothetically cheap? They might actually be the most expensive one, as CA would need to draw up new concept arts, work in tandem with GW for approval and even design the culture from the ground up. Then it also needs its own unique campaign mechanics like any other faction and presumably a large dose of monstrous units to set it apart from the other human factions. Even its map-locations need to be fleshed-out. So, no, it will most certainly not be cheap if it's included at all. Almost everything needs to be made from scratch, no models for inspiration, nothing.

    It's just not happening with CA's recent statements and the like. They're far too busy with the core stuff, and even that's far from finished.
    I'm confused. You ask how they can be cheap then claim they need a "large dose of monstrous units", something they absolutely don't. If you add expensive things into a roster of course it'll be expensive. As to your question I answered it in the comment you quoted.

    Yes they need to draw up concepts but that's how CA works, everything gets a concept. And they've just spent years working on Fantasy China. It's hardly a new or unfamiliar concept for them. Mechanics, CA's got a library of them now, pick a couple. And the map? It should extend to Cathay at the minimum anyway. Game 2 covered half the world, I don't see why game 3 can't cover a much smaller portion of the world than game 2.
    Half of the written inspiration for Cathay comes from the Tamurkhan book mentioning lots of monstrous units, like Oni-like Ogres, Raven statues, Jade warriors, Heavenly dragons, etc. Also, 3K art is not applicable to Warhammer and the concept art of other established factions is based on the miniatures (they paint themself) and art of GW, making the work a bit easier for them as there already are concept arts to work with.

    Cathay doesn't have that. And we haven't even been promised the full map (which is ludicrous, anyway).

    You're really downplaying the work it would cost. A lot.
    From an animation perspective, possibly not. What we're looking at are likely things that can be modelled on existing rigs - ogres (will be needed for Ogre Kingdoms anyway), birdlike winged humanoid (between harpies, Furies, and the Lord of Change, there'd be something), terracotta soldiers would be on a humanoid rig (not sure where you're getting jade warriors from) and dragons would probably use the dragon rig, maybe with the wings removed but GW never established that Far East dragons were wingless as far as I recall. From an animation perspective, there are races they've already done, and daemons yet to come, that probably required more.

    There is the element that they don't have official models available, nor is there much publicly-released art, but CA does do their own concept art. The concept stage certainly would be more involved than it has been with previous races, but I don't think having a little more trial and error at the concept art stage is going to break the budget. What seems to eat up the Charlemagnes are unique rigs with complex animations, and I don't see much potential for those in what we know of the Cathayan forces.
    It would be a cheap rip-off it if was just an army of reskins. I also don't think half of those proposed reskins you wrote are that obvious. Anyway, GW would need to be heavily involved, costing a lot more. CA's statements on 'original' content are ignored by you, as well.
    There's a big difference between 'using a common rig' and 'reskin'. A one-horned ogre would have a different model to a 'regular' ogre (it'll have that horn, after all), but with the possible exception of having a special animation for using that horn as a weapon, it'd have the same animations as a regular ogre (and even then, I wouldn't be surprised to see ogres getting a headbutt animation in general). Why reinvent the wheel?

    Same for all the rest. Reusing rigs, where reasonably practical, is standard practice in the industry. I've known companies who've reused rigs with new animations and a completely different stance that you'd never know they were on the same rig if they hadn't told the fanbase that they are. Why? Because even with mostly new animations, putting new animations on an existing rig is a lot cheaper than starting from scratch.

    And in this case... they wouldn't need all that much in the way of additional animations. An ogre with a horn is still an ogre. A humanoid is still a humanoid (I'm pretty sure elves and humans are on the same rig, even if they have different animations). Winged humanoids both with arms and without are already in the game. If you think CA creates and animates every separate unit from scratch when there are existing rigs with animations that's close to what they're making, there's a bridge in London I'd like to sell you. The design phase would take a little longer and cost a little more, to be sure, but there's nothing in the animation that's likely to pull out the Charlemagnes.

    With regards to statements - the most definitive (apart from the discussion about fanmade stuff, which doesn't apply since there is official Cathay material) are the comments they've made about Clylostra, which was a case of creating a character that had never been mentioned or even hinted at in the fluff.
  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Registered Users Posts: 24,886
    Drax coming in to big brain it. I appreciate you Drax.
    I apologize in for everything I say till around 29/04
  • TheGreatPamphletTheGreatPamphlet Registered Users Posts: 974
    Yeah, and the Lizzardmen were added to pander to the Mexican audience. Anyway, the reasoning of the OP is faulty. Three Kingdoms attracted (and largely failed to retain) quite a few East Asians (disproportionately more Koreans than Chinese), because Dynasty Warriors is extremely popular, something not even remotely true with Cathay.

    Also, CA generally avoids making packs that cater only to a specific group, but instead aims for a wider audience. That's why Spartans were milked so heavily, while Boadicea was completely ignored, despite the fact there are much fewer Greek customers than British. Chaos Dwarfs and Ogres have a much greater potential to generate sales in the Far East than a niche faction, almost nobody has heard of. Anyone, but the most deluded marketing manager, can realise that.
    Nestor.

    Allah, Suriya, Bashar w Bas!

  • JungleElfJungleElf Registered Users Posts: 3,906
    Draxynnic said:

    JungleElf said:

    Draxynnic said:

    JungleElf said:

    JungleElf said:

    ROMOBOY said:

    ROMOBOY said:

    I’m pretty sure Chinese people don’t need to see their culture given the Warhammer treatment to buy the game. I’ve never understood this concept.

    "need" vs "want". And "buy" vs "buy in larger numbers".

    Whether or not you personally agree with the concept I think in general the idea that people are more likely to purchase a game if they can see themselves in it. Certainly it's something that's been around for decades. More specific to China I can certainly see it. I'd be interested to know the cold, hard data, but from what I know of China I can definitely see Cathay drawing more numbers than it otherwise would.
    Okay but let’s think about it this way. Are they (with GW’s approval) willing to spend a large amount of money and time in making an entire race from the ground up, just for the chance of attracting more Chinese consumers? It’s already gonna sell well in China. So what’s the point?
    What's the point? I thought that was fairly obvious; So it sells better than it would otherwise.

    You're also assuming it would be costly to make Cathay. I see it as actually pretty darn easy and cheap. The lore we have on them outlines a decent roster. even ignoring what GW might have that it didn't release they could easily make a roster from that with a couple additions. 2 LL's, 2 Heroes, 20ish units of mostly humans and Cavalry.
    How are they hypothetically cheap? They might actually be the most expensive one, as CA would need to draw up new concept arts, work in tandem with GW for approval and even design the culture from the ground up. Then it also needs its own unique campaign mechanics like any other faction and presumably a large dose of monstrous units to set it apart from the other human factions. Even its map-locations need to be fleshed-out. So, no, it will most certainly not be cheap if it's included at all. Almost everything needs to be made from scratch, no models for inspiration, nothing.

    It's just not happening with CA's recent statements and the like. They're far too busy with the core stuff, and even that's far from finished.
    I'm confused. You ask how they can be cheap then claim they need a "large dose of monstrous units", something they absolutely don't. If you add expensive things into a roster of course it'll be expensive. As to your question I answered it in the comment you quoted.

    Yes they need to draw up concepts but that's how CA works, everything gets a concept. And they've just spent years working on Fantasy China. It's hardly a new or unfamiliar concept for them. Mechanics, CA's got a library of them now, pick a couple. And the map? It should extend to Cathay at the minimum anyway. Game 2 covered half the world, I don't see why game 3 can't cover a much smaller portion of the world than game 2.
    Half of the written inspiration for Cathay comes from the Tamurkhan book mentioning lots of monstrous units, like Oni-like Ogres, Raven statues, Jade warriors, Heavenly dragons, etc. Also, 3K art is not applicable to Warhammer and the concept art of other established factions is based on the miniatures (they paint themself) and art of GW, making the work a bit easier for them as there already are concept arts to work with.

    Cathay doesn't have that. And we haven't even been promised the full map (which is ludicrous, anyway).

    You're really downplaying the work it would cost. A lot.
    From an animation perspective, possibly not. What we're looking at are likely things that can be modelled on existing rigs - ogres (will be needed for Ogre Kingdoms anyway), birdlike winged humanoid (between harpies, Furies, and the Lord of Change, there'd be something), terracotta soldiers would be on a humanoid rig (not sure where you're getting jade warriors from) and dragons would probably use the dragon rig, maybe with the wings removed but GW never established that Far East dragons were wingless as far as I recall. From an animation perspective, there are races they've already done, and daemons yet to come, that probably required more.

    There is the element that they don't have official models available, nor is there much publicly-released art, but CA does do their own concept art. The concept stage certainly would be more involved than it has been with previous races, but I don't think having a little more trial and error at the concept art stage is going to break the budget. What seems to eat up the Charlemagnes are unique rigs with complex animations, and I don't see much potential for those in what we know of the Cathayan forces.
    It would be a cheap rip-off it if was just an army of reskins. I also don't think half of those proposed reskins you wrote are that obvious. Anyway, GW would need to be heavily involved, costing a lot more. CA's statements on 'original' content are ignored by you, as well.
    There's a big difference between 'using a common rig' and 'reskin'. A one-horned ogre would have a different model to a 'regular' ogre (it'll have that horn, after all), but with the possible exception of having a special animation for using that horn as a weapon, it'd have the same animations as a regular ogre (and even then, I wouldn't be surprised to see ogres getting a headbutt animation in general). Why reinvent the wheel?

    Same for all the rest. Reusing rigs, where reasonably practical, is standard practice in the industry. I've known companies who've reused rigs with new animations and a completely different stance that you'd never know they were on the same rig if they hadn't told the fanbase that they are. Why? Because even with mostly new animations, putting new animations on an existing rig is a lot cheaper than starting from scratch.

    And in this case... they wouldn't need all that much in the way of additional animations. An ogre with a horn is still an ogre. A humanoid is still a humanoid (I'm pretty sure elves and humans are on the same rig, even if they have different animations). Winged humanoids both with arms and without are already in the game. If you think CA creates and animates every separate unit from scratch when there are existing rigs with animations that's close to what they're making, there's a bridge in London I'd like to sell you. The design phase would take a little longer and cost a little more, to be sure, but there's nothing in the animation that's likely to pull out the Charlemagnes.

    With regards to statements - the most definitive (apart from the discussion about fanmade stuff, which doesn't apply since there is official Cathay material) are the comments they've made about Clylostra, which was a case of creating a character that had never been mentioned or even hinted at in the fluff.
    Exactly; More expansive. It seems we agree on that part! Anyway, the Cylostra comment would also apply to Cathay, seeing how they only have some vague character mentions and no actual models or statblocks to base Lords on. It was also regarding the new Bretonnian units, which according to CA was already quite the stretch.
  • Phoenix99Phoenix99 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,061
    edited December 2020
    ArneSo said:

    Phoenix99 said:

    Btw, is TW:WH series available at all in China?

    Not sure to be honest. Skeletons and Zombies are forbidden in China so not sure. Other East Asian countries don’t have these regulations as far as I know.

    Exactly, the whole point about China and Cathay to pander to that audience might be moot, if CA would have to redo or skip quite a few factions.

    Also not sure about chaos related stuff there.
  • ROMOBOYROMOBOY Registered Users Posts: 3,636

    JungleElf said:

    ROMOBOY said:

    ROMOBOY said:

    I’m pretty sure Chinese people don’t need to see their culture given the Warhammer treatment to buy the game. I’ve never understood this concept.

    "need" vs "want". And "buy" vs "buy in larger numbers".

    Whether or not you personally agree with the concept I think in general the idea that people are more likely to purchase a game if they can see themselves in it. Certainly it's something that's been around for decades. More specific to China I can certainly see it. I'd be interested to know the cold, hard data, but from what I know of China I can definitely see Cathay drawing more numbers than it otherwise would.
    Okay but let’s think about it this way. Are they (with GW’s approval) willing to spend a large amount of money and time in making an entire race from the ground up, just for the chance of attracting more Chinese consumers? It’s already gonna sell well in China. So what’s the point?
    What's the point? I thought that was fairly obvious; So it sells better than it would otherwise.

    You're also assuming it would be costly to make Cathay. I see it as actually pretty darn easy and cheap. The lore we have on them outlines a decent roster. even ignoring what GW might have that it didn't release they could easily make a roster from that with a couple additions. 2 LL's, 2 Heroes, 20ish units of mostly humans and Cavalry.
    How are they hypothetically cheap? They might actually be the most expensive one, as CA would need to draw up new concept arts, work in tandem with GW for approval and even design the culture from the ground up. Then it also needs its own unique campaign mechanics like any other faction and presumably a large dose of monstrous units to set it apart from the other human factions. Even its map-locations need to be fleshed-out. So, no, it will most certainly not be cheap if it's included at all. Almost everything needs to be made from scratch, no models for inspiration, nothing.

    It's just not happening with CA's recent statements and the like. They're far too busy with the core stuff, and even that's far from finished.
    I'm confused. You ask how they can be cheap then claim they need a "large dose of monstrous units", something they absolutely don't. If you add expensive things into a roster of course it'll be expensive.
    Because in the very little lore that Cathay has, it specifically states “Many strange creatures are said to live in the land of Cathay, from serpentine dragons to gigantic living stone dogs which guard the temples of the multitudinous gods of Cathay.”
    "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."

    Cathay > Chaos Dwarfs = Pain

    Justice for Kiwi123, neodeinos and FungusHound, the mighty Troll Slayers.
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