SEs Need To Lose Their Resistance to AoE Damage

TheShiroOfDalton

Send monster/character forward, watch AI blob, rain magic down, blob dies, monster/character unharmed.

How's this justifiable? A monster or hero standing at ground zero of a Flamestorm or other AoE attacks should take tons of damage, not be ultra-resistant to. And now with the minimum casting range dumbing down Wurzzag can just Foot of Gork himself when push comes to shove and somehow come out just fine while all of his attackers get creamed.

The BS resistance to AoE damage of SEs needs to be removed.

Ninaran#8122

I remember the time when Piercing Bolts of Burning did ridiculous SE damage.

That got nerfed quickly.

Completely for that change.

Pocman#6295

In general terms? No. It makes complete sense to have some spells be more effective to some types of units than to others.

In more specific terms? Yeah more spells that punish SEMs, and in general, large units, are needed.

TheShiroOfDalton

Pocman said:

In general terms? No. It makes complete sense to have some spells be more effective to some types of units than to others.

In more specific terms? Yeah more spells that punish SEMs, and in general, large units, are needed.

There's no justification for SEs to be near immune to AoE damage. A Stegadon or Empire General or whatever standing inside a Flamestorm or Pit of Shades should get obliterated.

Pocman#6295

ShiroAmakusa75 said:

Pocman said:

In general terms? No. It makes complete sense to have some spells be more effective to some types of units than to others.

In more specific terms? Yeah more spells that punish SEMs, and in general, large units, are needed.

There's no justification for SEs to be near immune to AoE damage. A Stegadon or Empire General or whatever standing inside a Flamestorm or Pit of Shades should get obliterated.

Except there are a lot both in gameplay terms, TT terms, lorewise terms...

BovineKing#8781

In gameplay terms it’s justified I know that seems unfair but it would mean say morathi flying could pit of shades some 1 like throgg twice and have free reign the rest of the match.

yst#1879

BovineKing said:

In gameplay terms it’s justified I know that seems unfair but it would mean say morathi flying could pit of shades some 1 like throgg twice and have free reign the rest of the match.

Just walk away lol...

Even if throg stand on the pit sucking his trollish souls away, he should still frikking lose at least 3000 hp on it. A lousy awake woods already do 1k+ on infantry. This is a higher grade like double the not only the costs to bring it but almost mana. It should drain the crap out of any monsters and not do like stupid 50 dmg.

Frikking stupid to see treeman bathing in firestorm and it does nothing to him.

Worst is the failure to destroy spells like this before, coz apparent some frikking noob got his monster bruised by piercing bolts. And that got into a youtube vid. Boom.

It is god damn stupid right now, u can stand there and just take like -50hp or something really, really stupid. Where it shouldve been even at the worst cost ineffective way, take at least 500 dmg when infantry gets wiped out. They arent even taking 200-300 dmg to begin with, like what the frikking zog is that.

We r not talking about taking -5000 hp here, they should at the very least take 1 spirit leech worth of dmg ****. Especially frikking hit by comet, they should bloody be so serverely wounded. Units like eagle should really just die, if someone can hit an eagle with comet, man that would be justice

BovineKing#8781

200 gold for 3000 hp on single unit is not reasonable at all.

yst#1879

BovineKing said:

200 gold for 3000 hp on single unit is not reasonable at all.

Its seriously NOT REASONABLE to get hit and lose like 50hp

NoSkill4U#6552

If this is the case I do think that we need a proper dispell mechanic.

Not something that outright cancels the spell but something that reduces its active time.

How much less useful would pendulum be if it only did like 1 swing because the spell druation was cut down by countermagic?



Regardless of that tho, I think it is unreasonable that vortexes (not winds!) are that useless against sems. I also think bombardments could be strengthend a bit more in so that the hit better.

I got off 1700 hp with a oovercast comet from a giant and the same with overcast urannons;

Previously the comet didn t even hit, even tho the giant was EXACTLY in the crosshairs.

I do think allowing bombardments to have a target lock on units would help here. Mind you, no homing like doombolt has.

BovineKing#8781

See that’s more reasonable response that they should be taking more damage from spells I agree with but that doesn’t make removing the resistance to aoe altogether a solution reduced sure.

TheShiroOfDalton

OK, someone gotta' justify why they even have it.

And no, saying they're expensive is NOT a justification, not unless they'd pay for that resistance with having less resistance to damage overall...which is of course not the case.

NoSkill4U#6552

ShiroAmakusa75 said:

OK, someone gotta' justify why they even have it.

And no, saying they're expensive is NOT a justification, not unless they'd pay for that resistance with having less resistance to damage overall...which is of course not the case.

Or at least significantly lowered.

goremand#5046

Realistically a larger creature would take more damage from an AoE attack due to more surface area. Foot lords and heroes though are more difficult to justify.

Pocman#6295

Green0 said:

Pocman said:

In general terms? No. It makes complete sense to have some spells be more effective to some types of units than to others.

In more specific terms? Yeah more spells that punish SEMs, and in general, large units, are needed.

spells that punish monster infantry and chaff are also needed and a higher priority than anti-SEM spells as SEMs are not as spammed as those other 2 unit types.

ShiroAmakusa75 said:

OK, someone gotta' justify why they even have it.

And no, saying they're expensive is NOT a justification, not unless they'd pay for that resistance with having less resistance to damage overall...which is of course not the case.

Them being more expensive is exactly one of the causes

User_Clue

Someone not too long ago mentioned adding hit boxes to single entities that were inside the model. If they had more then they would obviously take more damage from things like firestorm which pierce models but it wouldn't effect things like arrows which don't (in theory).

I think that would be quickest way to address some things without having to rebalance the spell itself.


It could also come with the secondary benefit of reducing "randomness" in SE fights because you could then apply splash damage to SE and have them roll MD several times and get hit with with split WS rather than the all or nothing the game has now.

TheShiroOfDalton

Pocman said:

Green0 said:

Pocman said:

In general terms? No. It makes complete sense to have some spells be more effective to some types of units than to others.

In more specific terms? Yeah more spells that punish SEMs, and in general, large units, are needed.

spells that punish monster infantry and chaff are also needed and a higher priority than anti-SEM spells as SEMs are not as spammed as those other 2 unit types.

ShiroAmakusa75 said:

OK, someone gotta' justify why they even have it.

And no, saying they're expensive is NOT a justification, not unless they'd pay for that resistance with having less resistance to damage overall...which is of course not the case.

Them being more expensive is exactly one of the causes

You can drop a Pit of Shades on a unit of Stormvermin and they'll get effed up almost as much as a unit of Skavenslaves despite costing almost seven times as much, so nope, not a justified correlation.

AoE damage immunity is another unjustified perk SEs pay nothing for and which encourages degenerate tactics, so it needs to go. Wurzzag calls that Foot of Gork down on himself, he goes splat, end of story.

Pocman#6295

User_Clue said:

Someone not too long ago mentioned adding hit boxes to single entities that were inside the model. If they had more then they would obviously take more damage from things like firestorm which pierce models but it wouldn't effect things like arrows which don't (in theory).

That would be a great buff... for cannons.


Spells like Flamestorm or Pit of Shades did almost no damage to monsters in TT. For example, those two did a 1 strength 4 hit to any model in contact. Meaning they wold destroy infantry and do almost nothing to SEMs.


The problem is not pendulum, flamestorm and the like not dealing damage to SEMS. The problem is not having a single spell that actually does.



Make bombardment spells actually deal decent damage to SEMs, make projectile spells skill shots.

Ninaran#8122

Just because TT did it differently doesn't mean we have to do it like that in TW as well.

If I see another Treeman walk around in a Flamestorm like it is a warm summer breeze I'll get even more brain damage.

Uagrim#4644

I remember the last time missile spells were good against single entities. Forum screamed up a storm.

But yhea we need more spells that are good against monsters. Meteors falling from orbit should do a lot of damage no matter if you're a simple dude or not.

NoSkill4U#6552

Uagrim said:

I remember the last time missile spells were good against single entities. Forum screamed up a storm.

But yhea we need more spells that are good against monsters. Meteors falling from orbit should do a lot of damage no matter if you're a simple dude or not.

To be fair, they were really, REALLY strong.

TheShiroOfDalton

Uagrim said:

I remember the last time missile spells were good against single entities. Forum screamed up a storm.

But yhea we need more spells that are good against monsters. Meteors falling from orbit should do a lot of damage no matter if you're a simple dude or not.

Well, the parts that thought the old character-bowling meta was A-OK did. PBoB was actually very unproblematic since its has such a long casting time. Vindictive Glare ruffled some feathers since they couldn't just dodge those projectiles.

That's also another thing that needs to be toned down, no more dodging projectiles for SEMs.

Disposable Hero

Nobody likes to have their characters sniped 15 seconds into the game, which you could do with vg on an horse mages for example. Nobody also likes to have a 3k+ gold lord netted and dumpstered by one spell. That ought to go without saying that too strong such abilities destroys the game.

outrage4

This part of the game is working as intended.

There are bunch of spells that have better affect on SEs than on infantry. Not to mention usually SEs cost much more that any other unit type.

There is absolutely no reason to break game balance to implements something like that.

TheShiroOfDalton

Disposable Hero said:

Nobody likes to have their characters sniped 15 seconds into the game, which you could do with vg on an horse mages for example. Nobody also likes to have a 3k+ gold lord netted and dumpstered by one spell. That ought to go without saying that too strong such abilities destroys the game.

Then tone down magic. I'd support that in a heartbeat.

But certain units being immune to damage types for no good reason is bad game design. Why should Wurzzag not feel that giant foot stomping down on him?

Pocman#6295

outrage4 said:

There are bunch of spells that have better affect on SEs than on infantry. Not to mention usually SEs cost much more that any other unit type.

Name 1

ShiroAmakusa75 said:

Disposable Hero said:

Nobody likes to have their characters sniped 15 seconds into the game, which you could do with vg on an horse mages for example. Nobody also likes to have a 3k+ gold lord netted and dumpstered by one spell. That ought to go without saying that too strong such abilities destroys the game.

Then tone down magic. I'd support that in a heartbeat.

But certain units being immune to damage types for no good reason is bad game design. Why should Wurzzag not feel that giant foot stomping down on him?

Why should Wurzag be able to withstand 50 or so sword attacks more than a black orc?

TheShiroOfDalton

Pocman said:

outrage4 said:

There are bunch of spells that have better affect on SEs than on infantry. Not to mention usually SEs cost much more that any other unit type.

Name 1

ShiroAmakusa75 said:

Disposable Hero said:

Nobody likes to have their characters sniped 15 seconds into the game, which you could do with vg on an horse mages for example. Nobody also likes to have a 3k+ gold lord netted and dumpstered by one spell. That ought to go without saying that too strong such abilities destroys the game.

Then tone down magic. I'd support that in a heartbeat.

But certain units being immune to damage types for no good reason is bad game design. Why should Wurzzag not feel that giant foot stomping down on him?

Why should Wurzag be able to withstand 50 or so sword attacks more than a black orc?

LoL, if you leave Wurzzag in combat he will go down faster than a Black Ork.

The whole price argument is moot anyway considering there are SEs that don't cost all that much or are in fact cheaper than elite infantry that gets squished by cheap magic.

Also, since SEs don't pay for their perks of always being at 100% strength regardless of health and having 100% healing synergy, they can lose some survivability in return.

Disposable Hero

Different spells just have different damage profiles. You have vortices (including winds who are directional vortex damage, foot of gork is also a short vortex), phase damage (sl, fob etc) and projectile damage (with direct and explosion damage components, including magic missiles and bombardments).

Vortices deal little damage per model (ie little vs single entities), but both phase damage and projectile damage deal good damage to any target but depends on damage profile. Phase damage that has a hit chance like sl has 50% mitigates damage to units with very few models but overkill models of they have few hp per model. Projectile damage depends on number of projectiles and distribution between direct and explosion damage.

It's all designed to have different efficiencies towards different targets and in different situations so that not all spells fill the same role.

Imo there is no problem that its more difficult to snipe lords and casters than it is to deal damage to units. It kind of has to be like that, but it does give protection to "feral" monsters and war machines in a way I guess but rather that than having op sniping spells. If you want to move around that you'd have to give all chars magic resist which would mess up other units.

All in all tweaks go a long way, lots of spells need tweaked casting times because they have too long graphical windup.

Pocman#6295

ShiroAmakusa75 said:

Pocman said:

outrage4 said:

There are bunch of spells that have better affect on SEs than on infantry. Not to mention usually SEs cost much more that any other unit type.

Name 1

ShiroAmakusa75 said:

Disposable Hero said:

Nobody likes to have their characters sniped 15 seconds into the game, which you could do with vg on an horse mages for example. Nobody also likes to have a 3k+ gold lord netted and dumpstered by one spell. That ought to go without saying that too strong such abilities destroys the game.

Then tone down magic. I'd support that in a heartbeat.

But certain units being immune to damage types for no good reason is bad game design. Why should Wurzzag not feel that giant foot stomping down on him?

Why should Wurzag be able to withstand 50 or so sword attacks more than a black orc?

LoL, if you leave Wurzzag in combat he will go down faster than a Black Ork.

The whole price argument is moot anyway considering there are SEs that don't cost all that much or are in fact cheaper than elite infantry that gets squished by cheap magic.

Also, since SEs don't pay for their perks of always being at 100% strength regardless of health and having 100% healing synergy, they can lose some survivability in return.

Yeah, i am sure than the 3k HP, 31% physical resistance wurzag goes doen quicker than a single black orc model with 120 HP.

The price argument is perfectly valid if we go by actual averages. Cheapest SEM: 800. Cheapest infantry: 100. More expensive SEM, RORs excluded: 3100. Most expensive infantry: 1450.


Again, magic needs to be better v SEM. Howeverm ,making AOE magic counter everything is just bad gameplay design.

TheShiroOfDalton

If Wurzzag gets punched for 50% damage, he can still function just as fine as before. If a Black Ork unit gets bombed to 50% health and half models, it's diminished massively in value and that's with them having a higher base cost to boot.

Where's the logic in that?

There's none. Ergo it needs to be removed.