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i agree, esp vortice spells should be much more punishing for the SE,guess thats the reason why nobody takes them competetively
vortices with their unpredictablity are still pretty bad on their own. would be nice if i could give the vortice at least an initial direction and then make it random
I don't really want to see large aoe spells to be able to kill SE super well. It reminds me too much of WH1 last meta where one final transmutation would win you the game thanks to its ability to kill absolutly everything in one cast. Of course I know that no one here is asking for something that extreme but still if the magic play end up being about casting your big AoE like 3 times I don't see the fun in that. On vortices in may remain ok because the aoe is smaller and moves.
I think spells who are actually supposed to kill SE got some of their damages turned into percentage damage based on the max HP of the unit. That way those spells would damage big SE while those with less hit points (mainly characters etc) wont get destroyed too hard. Aka Skrolk wont risk to get 3 shots by fireballs (like it did pre-nerf), vindictive glare killing in 2 shots mounted mages. At the same time maybe spirit leech will cease to be the most effective against cav (currently 1 SL=7 models killed) and start to be cast on big SE again while not becoming the universal lord snipe tool of early WH1.
But is talking about what is appropriate to talk about in this thread appropriate to be talked about in this thread ?
Skip to 8:47 to see a Steam Tank and a Luminark get oneshotted by a Foot of Gork.
It does seem hard to balance right, though, and giving large SEM multiple hit box mechanics could open up a horrible can of worms.
Giving projectile spells (Shem's, Vindictive Glare etc) way more damage per missile in order to whoop SEM's just opens up for the awful Vindictive Glare lord-snipe meta that existed a while ago.
Skip to 8:47 to see a Steam Tank and a Luminark get oneshotted by a Foot of Gork.
It does seem hard to balance right, though, and giving large SEM multiple hit box mechanics could open up a horrible can of worms.
Giving projectile spells (Shem's, Vindictive Glare etc) way more damage per missile in order to whoop SEM's just opens up for the awful Vindictive Glare lord-snipe meta that existed a while ago.
Yeah I mean the difference with vortex/area spells is they can generally be dodged (while vindictive glare not so much) and its easier to dodge with a single entity than multi entity.
But I think this is a hit box design issue that is not easy for ca to fix.
I don’t argue that a AoE spells should do 3000 damages to a SE but it should do more than 50.
A few hundred, like maybe between 400-600 could be better.
Making AoE spells hurt SE enough that consider making them retreat could be a good thing or questioning if blobing is a good idea in a particular instance.
I don’t argue that a AoE spells should do 3000 damages to a SE but it should do more than 50.
A few hundred, like maybe between 400-600 could be better.
Making AoE spells hurt SE enough that consider making them retreat could be a good thing or questioning if blobing is a good idea in a particular instance.
i think that's exactly the right goal, but i suspect it's hard for CA to actually pull that off in practice. Would love to be wrong.
But there is Spirit leech and arcane unforging. They do almost nothing to units with high modelcounts. I mean different spells are meant to be used on different Targets.
Vortexes are not op, they are to unreliable in Mp. If they are, as you say op, explain why people bring burning head instead of Flamestorm?
Singleplayer is not the gamemode to base spellbalance on. AI performance should never be the basis for balance changes.
But there is Spirit leech and arcane unforging. They do almost nothing to units with high modelcounts. I mean different spells are meant to be used on different Targets.
Vortexes are not op, they are to unreliable in Mp. If they are, as you say op, explain why people bring burning head instead of Flamestorm?
Singleplayer is not the gamemode to base spellbalance on. AI performance should never be the basis for balance changes.
There are no spells that do high burst damage against SEs.
And SP needs to be balanced too, no matter what anyone says. Stupid, degenerate tactics need to be discouraged or outright destroyed.
How's this justifiable? A monster or hero standing at ground zero of a Flamestorm or other AoE attacks should take tons of damage, not be ultra-resistant to. And now with the minimum casting range dumbing down Wurzzag can just Foot of Gork himself when push comes to shove and somehow come out just fine while all of his attackers get creamed.
The BS resistance to AoE damage of SEs needs to be removed.
there is Spirit leech and arcane unforging. They do almost nothing to units with high modelcounts. I mean different spells are meant to be used on different Targets.
Vortexes are not op, they are to unreliable in Mp. If they are, as you say op, explain why people bring burning head instead of Flamestorm? Or why sprit leech and healing are so good? Or why they decided to nerf Seafang and Pendelum and Burning head, and left vortexes untouched? If as you say, vortexes are the problem?
Noone ever uses vortexes, except Volkmars and Mazdamundis bound banishments.
Singleplayer is not the gamemode to base spellbalance on. AI performance should never be the basis for balance changes. They are to easily exploited
Spirit Leech and Arcane Unforging don't do high burst damage. You need to keep applying them to actually have a noticeable effect.
Also, you seem to have missed the point of the discussion. This is about SEs losing any and all immunity to AoE damage because nothing justified them having it.
Vortexes are used also in mp actually and can be powerful. Especially the ones with short duration of ~10s are pretty much fine, the main problem with many vortices is that when you overcast them you double their duration, which is for most part not useful and completely dictated by rng. If overcast added some other effect they would be more useful over all.
Don't fear the knockdown. Control it. Embrace it. Love it!
Vortexes are used also in mp actually and can be powerful. Especially the ones with short duration of ~10s are pretty much fine, the main problem with many vortices is that when you overcast them you double their duration, which is for most part not useful and completely dictated by rng. If overcast added some other effect they would be more useful over all.
Yeah i know. Sorry i made them up to be totally useless. Their unreliability seems to me be their achilles heel though, if you use it early in the fight vs a elite infantry unit. It has a pretty big chance of being mostly dodged. And when lines have clashed, using them is like playing russian roulette. Spagetti formations also do them no favours.
Their reliability vs inf could be increased first, And after that their interaction with SEMs could be looked at. They cost a fair bit of mana too, so it is hard not to prefer using your mana on something more likely to justify you spending it.
How's this justifiable? A monster or hero standing at ground zero of a Flamestorm or other AoE attacks should take tons of damage, not be ultra-resistant to. And now with the minimum casting range dumbing down Wurzzag can just Foot of Gork himself when push comes to shove and somehow come out just fine while all of his attackers get creamed.
The BS resistance to AoE damage of SEs needs to be removed.
My favourite is Tree kind and Treeman bathing in flamstorm and taking no damage.
Meanwhile, a unit of ironbreakers with 25% magic resistance will get absolutely demolished by a flamestorm.
How's this justifiable? A monster or hero standing at ground zero of a Flamestorm or other AoE attacks should take tons of damage, not be ultra-resistant to. And now with the minimum casting range dumbing down Wurzzag can just Foot of Gork himself when push comes to shove and somehow come out just fine while all of his attackers get creamed.
The BS resistance to AoE damage of SEs needs to be removed.
My favourite is Tree kind and Treeman bathing in flamstorm and taking no damage.
Meanwhile, a unit of ironbreakers with 25% magic resistance will get absolutely demolished by a flamestorm.
How's this justifiable? A monster or hero standing at ground zero of a Flamestorm or other AoE attacks should take tons of damage, not be ultra-resistant to. And now with the minimum casting range dumbing down Wurzzag can just Foot of Gork himself when push comes to shove and somehow come out just fine while all of his attackers get creamed.
The BS resistance to AoE damage of SEs needs to be removed.
My favourite is Tree kind and Treeman bathing in flamstorm and taking no damage.
Meanwhile, a unit of ironbreakers with 25% magic resistance will get absolutely demolished by a flamestorm.
Which is completely intended, and accurate to TT.
It is still stupid, even if it was done on TT. Running around in a Flamestorm should be as devastating to a Treeman as it is to a formation of Ironbreakers. If not more so, because it's a tree.
How's this justifiable? A monster or hero standing at ground zero of a Flamestorm or other AoE attacks should take tons of damage, not be ultra-resistant to. And now with the minimum casting range dumbing down Wurzzag can just Foot of Gork himself when push comes to shove and somehow come out just fine while all of his attackers get creamed.
The BS resistance to AoE damage of SEs needs to be removed.
My favourite is Tree kind and Treeman bathing in flamstorm and taking no damage.
Meanwhile, a unit of ironbreakers with 25% magic resistance will get absolutely demolished by a flamestorm.
Which is completely intended, and accurate to TT.
No, because you get that Flamestorm out 100% of the time you try and there's no dispelling of any kind. So it's actually not accurate to the TT at all.
And on the TT SEMs could be one shot by artillery, so no cherrypicking.
How's this justifiable? A monster or hero standing at ground zero of a Flamestorm or other AoE attacks should take tons of damage, not be ultra-resistant to. And now with the minimum casting range dumbing down Wurzzag can just Foot of Gork himself when push comes to shove and somehow come out just fine while all of his attackers get creamed.
The BS resistance to AoE damage of SEs needs to be removed.
My favourite is Tree kind and Treeman bathing in flamstorm and taking no damage.
Meanwhile, a unit of ironbreakers with 25% magic resistance will get absolutely demolished by a flamestorm.
Which is completely intended, and accurate to TT.
It is still stupid, even if it was done on TT. Running around in a Flamestorm should be as devastating to a Treeman as it is to a formation of Ironbreakers. If not more so, because it's a tree.
Except is not.
1. Gameplay wise, it makes perfect sense: this game works as a scissor stone paper game. Making a tool that works against everything is stupid.
2. Reality wise, it does too. There is a reason why controlled fire is used by mountain firefighting. What would burn a small creature/bush in seconds would do very little to a big creature/old tree.
3. TT wise, it also does. Most of those spells dealt very little damage to monsters, mostly due to reason 1.
I agree that currently, magic is not good enough at killing monsters. But the solution to that is making spells that are great at killing SEMs, not making vortex and winds good against everything.
Imho the perfect candidates are bombardment spells, as it is pretty easy to buff them against monsterss without making them OP v infantry, are dodgeable (so no "sniping" meta) and are useless as they are right now.
Imho the perfect candidates are bombardment spells, as it is pretty easy to buff them against monsterss without making them OP v infantry, are dodgeable (so no "sniping" meta) and are useless as they are right now.
Problem is that Bombardment spells are easier to dodge with Monsters than with infantry. So if you make them strong against SEM they are gone chunck infantry particularly the elite kind pretty hard.
Imho the perfect candidates are bombardment spells, as it is pretty easy to buff them against monsterss without making them OP v infantry, are dodgeable (so no "sniping" meta) and are useless as they are right now.
Problem is that Bombardment spells are easier to dodge with Monsters than with infantry. So if you make them strong against SEM they are gone chunck infantry particularly the elite kind pretty hard.
Don t they already do that?
In this case the splash shold be lowereda bit and the actual missle strength increased.
Imho the perfect candidates are bombardment spells, as it is pretty easy to buff them against monsterss without making them OP v infantry, are dodgeable (so no "sniping" meta) and are useless as they are right now.
Problem is that Bombardment spells are easier to dodge with Monsters than with infantry. So if you make them strong against SEM they are gone chunck infantry particularly the elite kind pretty hard.
No. You can increase projectile damage and reduce explosion radius and explosion damage. There is a point were no matter how powerful the projectile becomes, it wont matter against infantry because each will only kill one model.
Imho the perfect candidates are bombardment spells, as it is pretty easy to buff them against monsterss without making them OP v infantry, are dodgeable (so no "sniping" meta) and are useless as they are right now.
Problem is that Bombardment spells are easier to dodge with Monsters than with infantry. So if you make them strong against SEM they are gone chunck infantry particularly the elite kind pretty hard.
No. You can increase projectile damage and reduce explosion radius and explosion damage. There is a point were no matter how powerful the projectile becomes, it wont matter against infantry because each will only kill one model.
Imho the perfect candidates are bombardment spells, as it is pretty easy to buff them against monsterss without making them OP v infantry, are dodgeable (so no "sniping" meta) and are useless as they are right now.
Problem is that Bombardment spells are easier to dodge with Monsters than with infantry. So if you make them strong against SEM they are gone chunck infantry particularly the elite kind pretty hard.
No. You can increase projectile damage and reduce explosion radius and explosion damage. There is a point were no matter how powerful the projectile becomes, it wont matter against infantry because each will only kill one model.
And how do you make it so that the bombardment actually hits the SEM?
Imho the perfect candidates are bombardment spells, as it is pretty easy to buff them against monsterss without making them OP v infantry, are dodgeable (so no "sniping" meta) and are useless as they are right now.
Problem is that Bombardment spells are easier to dodge with Monsters than with infantry. So if you make them strong against SEM they are gone chunck infantry particularly the elite kind pretty hard.
No. You can increase projectile damage and reduce explosion radius and explosion damage. There is a point were no matter how powerful the projectile becomes, it wont matter against infantry because each will only kill one model.
And how do you make it so that the bombardment actually hits the SEM?
That's the interesting part. High risk high reward. A powerful way to get rid of the most powerful units, but that isn't easy to pull off. Meaning no abuse.
Less powerful spells could work like the doombolt.
Single entities need to take alot more dmg from this i agree with OP.
Perhaps not as much as unit but alot more than now. Alot. Perhaps half of what a unit does. It should hurt to stand in a flame storm and you should want to get out of there asap
It needs to be pointed out that what people call "cheese" is just playing the game the way it actually exists not in some fictional way they think it is supposed to work.
Imho the perfect candidates are bombardment spells, as it is pretty easy to buff them against monsterss without making them OP v infantry, are dodgeable (so no "sniping" meta) and are useless as they are right now.
Problem is that Bombardment spells are easier to dodge with Monsters than with infantry. So if you make them strong against SEM they are gone chunck infantry particularly the elite kind pretty hard.
No. You can increase projectile damage and reduce explosion radius and explosion damage. There is a point were no matter how powerful the projectile becomes, it wont matter against infantry because each will only kill one model.
And how do you make it so that the bombardment actually hits the SEM?
That's the interesting part. High risk high reward. A powerful way to get rid of the most powerful units, but that isn't easy to pull off. Meaning no abuse.
Less powerful spells could work like the doombolt.
If its too hard to use no one will use it because it is just a waste of WoM. You need to at least somewhat realiably be able to hit a currently engaged SEM for it to make any sense bringing which depending on animation is unlikely. Unless you want to make it mandatory to bring a light caster with a Net for bombardments to do anything to SEM.
I wouldn’t have a problem with high damage single target spells but they’d need to be really expensive to bring and basically burn your wind of magic to be anywhere near balanced.
I wouldn’t have a problem with high damage single target spells but they’d need to be really expensive to bring and basically burn your wind of magic to be anywhere near balanced.
Nope, you can clean an entire frontline of infantry with a single pendulum, so why should SEMs have any special exemptions...again?
Comments
#givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc
- Report
1 · Disagree Agreevortices with their unpredictablity are still pretty bad on their own. would be nice if i could give the vortice at least an initial direction and then make it random
- Report
3 · Disagree AgreeI think spells who are actually supposed to kill SE got some of their damages turned into percentage damage based on the max HP of the unit.
That way those spells would damage big SE while those with less hit points (mainly characters etc)
wont get destroyed too hard. Aka Skrolk wont risk to get 3 shots by fireballs (like it did pre-nerf), vindictive glare killing in 2 shots mounted mages. At the same time maybe spirit leech will cease to be the most effective against cav (currently 1 SL=7 models killed) and start to be cast on big SE again while not becoming the universal lord snipe tool of early WH1.
- Report
0 · Disagree AgreeSkip to 8:47 to see a Steam Tank and a Luminark get oneshotted by a Foot of Gork.
It does seem hard to balance right, though, and giving large SEM multiple hit box mechanics could open up a horrible can of worms.
Giving projectile spells (Shem's, Vindictive Glare etc) way more damage per missile in order to whoop SEM's just opens up for the awful Vindictive Glare lord-snipe meta that existed a while ago.
- Report
0 · Disagree AgreeBut I think this is a hit box design issue that is not easy for ca to fix.
- Report
0 · Disagree AgreeA few hundred, like maybe between 400-600 could be better.
Making AoE spells hurt SE enough that consider making them retreat could be a good thing or questioning if blobing is a good idea in a particular instance.
- Report
2 · Disagree Agree- Report
0 · Disagree AgreeI mean different spells are meant to be used on different Targets.
Vortexes are not op, they are to unreliable in Mp.
If they are, as you say op, explain why people bring burning head instead of Flamestorm?
Singleplayer is not the gamemode to base spellbalance on. AI performance should never be the basis for balance changes.
- Report
1 · Disagree AgreeAnd SP needs to be balanced too, no matter what anyone says. Stupid, degenerate tactics need to be discouraged or outright destroyed.
- Report
3 · Disagree AgreeI mean different spells are meant to be used on different Targets.
Vortexes are not op, they are to unreliable in Mp.
If they are, as you say op, explain why people bring burning head instead of Flamestorm?
Or why sprit leech and healing are so good?
Or why they decided to nerf Seafang and Pendelum and Burning head, and left vortexes untouched?
If as you say, vortexes are the problem?
Noone ever uses vortexes, except Volkmars and Mazdamundis bound banishments.
Singleplayer is not the gamemode to base spellbalance on. AI performance should never be the basis for balance changes. They are to easily exploited
- Report
0 · Disagree AgreeAlso, you seem to have missed the point of the discussion. This is about SEs losing any and all immunity to AoE damage because nothing justified them having it.
SP needs balance, period.
- Report
2 · Disagree Agree- Report
0 · Disagree AgreeTheir reliability vs inf could be increased first, And after that their interaction with SEMs could be looked at.
They cost a fair bit of mana too, so it is hard not to prefer using your mana on something more likely to justify you spending it.
- Report
0 · Disagree Agree- Report
0 · Disagree AgreeMeanwhile, a unit of ironbreakers with 25% magic resistance will get absolutely demolished by a flamestorm.
- Report
2 · Disagree Agree- Report
0 · Disagree Agree- Report
1 · Disagree AgreeAnd on the TT SEMs could be one shot by artillery, so no cherrypicking.
- Report
1 · Disagree Agree1. Gameplay wise, it makes perfect sense: this game works as a scissor stone paper game. Making a tool that works against everything is stupid.
2. Reality wise, it does too. There is a reason why controlled fire is used by mountain firefighting. What would burn a small creature/bush in seconds would do very little to a big creature/old tree.
3. TT wise, it also does. Most of those spells dealt very little damage to monsters, mostly due to reason 1.
I agree that currently, magic is not good enough at killing monsters. But the solution to that is making spells that are great at killing SEMs, not making vortex and winds good against everything.
Imho the perfect candidates are bombardment spells, as it is pretty easy to buff them against monsterss without making them OP v infantry, are dodgeable (so no "sniping" meta) and are useless as they are right now.
- Report
0 · Disagree Agree- Report
0 · Disagree AgreeIn this case the splash shold be lowereda bit and the actual missle strength increased.
- Report
0 · Disagree Agree- Report
1 · Disagree Agree- Report
0 · Disagree Agree- Report
0 · Disagree AgreeThat's the interesting part. High risk high reward. A powerful way to get rid of the most powerful units, but that isn't easy to pull off. Meaning no abuse.
Less powerful spells could work like the doombolt.
- Report
0 · Disagree AgreePerhaps not as much as unit but alot more than now. Alot. Perhaps half of what a unit does. It should hurt to stand in a flame storm and you should want to get out of there asap
- Report
0 · Disagree Agree- Report
1 · Disagree Agree- Report
0 · Disagree AgreeNot unless you nerf magic as a whole.
- Report
0 · Disagree Agree