Fixing the mistakes of WH1 - Altering old DLCs?

TheWattman#7460

All in all, the Warhammer series is shaping up to be an amazing trilogy of games, but as we approach the climax of game 3, the apparent and less-apparent mistakes of game 1 are becoming more and more troublesome. For instance, game 1 had a heavy emphasis on multiple lord choices in one starting location, such as the tripple Franz/Volkmar/Gelt in Reikland for the Empire, the double-doubles in Sylvania for the Vampires and the shared position of Grimgor and Azhag for the Greenskins. In fact, the only playable race to not have a double among the base ones was Bretonnia, an FLC race. The Dwarfs had it too with Grombrindal. But that is not the only type of mistake made in the early days. Most prominent otherwise are some very questionable choices for lords and heroes, specifically concerning the Vampires with Helman Ghorst and the non-recruitable summon Krell.

This raises the question: Can these mistakes be fixed? Well, some already has. Gelt has been moved to Solland, Azhag up to Karak Ungor and Kemmler was put in the Grey Mountains. Even Ungrim at first started in Karaz-a-Karak, but was later moved to Karak Kadrin. This is consistent with the theme of game 2 to provide interesting and new start positions with every addition, even to the point they hardly make any sense at all. In any case, some mistakes have been remedied, but certainly not all of them. And some of them might be very difficult to solve, depending on how far CA and even the fanbase are willing to go. Specifically Im thinking of 2 major issues, concerning the aforementioned Ghorst, but also the future of Sigvald the Magnificent.

Problem 1: Ghorst shouldn't be here
Solution: Replace him with Konrad von Carstein or W'Soran/Zacharias?
Complication: Are old released DLCs even possible to edit?
Description:

I think 99% of all of us even remotely familiar with Warhammer lore can agree on that Ghorst should never have been picked as a lord for the Vampires. He doesn't even come close to holding a candle to some other characters and he certainly DOES NOT hold a place in any of their armybooks. This is a real problem for the future if CA wants to really flesh out the Vampire bloodlines, because right now, with only 1 of them represented, they stand at 5 lords. Now, what number of lords for each race will land on is up for debate, but I personally feel if we go above 8, then the full ME becomes just too large to handle and people would just get lost. Still, if we limit ourselves to 8, that still only makes room for 3 other lines and if it came down to it, the Necrarchs would probably lose out on representation, as Neferata, Ushoran and Abhorash would easily distinguish themselves more than any Necrarch ever could.

Now, what should we do about this? Well we obviously can't just remove him entirely, because then WH1 would find itself having a DLC without a 2nd "unique" LL in the Grim & the Grave. That DLC itself has nothing overly thematic about itself, adding only the Strigoi Ghoul King, the Corpse Cart and the Mortis Engine otherwise. So how can we fix this, if its possible to start poking at a DLC now over 4 years old? If the answer is yes, then I would propose replacing Ghorst with either Konrad von Carstein, if we wanna keep the Sylvania faction (and thus change the DLC's name to the Grim & the Butcher/Bloody), or with a Necrarch, either W'Soran or Zacharias the Everliving. If we do the later option, then it requires more work in giving them a start in the Forest of Shadows, either in both WH1 and ME or just in ME, but honestly its less work than doing a fully-themed Necrarch DLC for either WH2 or 3. It would also be a logical pairing, since its still Empire vs Vampires and lots of especially Zacharias's activities were directed against the Empire, even it was specifically against Middenheim, Volkmar is still a more than adequate foe for him to face down. Now obviously, the old trailer has to be redone as well. This way, we would have 3 Carsteins, a Necrarch and Kemmler until the other bloodlines are added, thus ending up with 8 lords, depending on how Nagash is handled. I don't know if this is even possible or acceptable buisness practice, but it would be the most simple way to fix one of Total War Warhammer's biggest problems. Oh and make Krell recruitable while you're at it k thanks? Would you accept such a remake guys?

Problem 2: Sigvald in game 3, either base or DLC again?
Solution: Just remove him in game 1? WoC can manage without him?
Complication: Again, can old DLCs be altered?
Description:

This problem is similar to the first problem, but surprisingly its probably much easier to solve. To be completely honest, I think Undivided Chaos can manage perfectly fine without Sigvald and his mirror guard. Archaon and Kholek are perfect mortal representations and when joined with Be'lakor in game 3, with obvious gameplay and roster updates, they would form a perfectly fine race on their own. Fortunately, the Chaos Warriors trailer, atleast the one on the DLC page, has no reference to Sigvald or Slaanesh at all, so it should be a simple matter of simply removing Sigvald, the mirror guard and their campaign to instead have them in WH3. This would make WoC on par with the other race-packs of WH1, Norsca, Beastmen (Morgur was added half a year after CoB was released) and Wood Elves. I would be fine with this deal to see him again in WH3 with a proper Slaanesh faction, if altering in past DLCs is possible, but what do you guys think?

#254403

Volkmar should stay with Franz in Reikland. It’s bad enough that Gelt isn’t in Altdorf aiding the Emperor.

Crossil

Fixing WE is necessary as it is an entire race. So it's not so much fixing a DLC as much as it is fixing an entire race. Lord Packs are not and there's little to indicate those would ever be fixed.

Pocman#6295

Why?

Daruwind

-Krell and Isabellla should be proper LH and Grombrindal...well should too but i can live with that. Gotrek...Felix should be changed too...

TheWattman#7460

LordTorquemado said:

Volkmar should stay with Franz in Reikland. It’s bad enough that Gelt isn’t in Altdorf aiding the Emperor.

Yeah Im fine with him being there, not a huge problem. Its the capital of the Empire, so multiple lords can be warranted, but not more than 2.

damon40000#7640

Yeah Grombrindal should mash druchi skulls somewhere north, Ungrim is also too close to Karaz-a-Karak, his only difference to game 1 dwarf route(greenskins all day) is abusing Manfred (as if he isnt already in sorry state)

davedave1124#4773

I don’t agree with getting rid of a LL. I know people like LoTW prefer Ghorst and find him fun. You can add Conrad without getting rid of Ghorst.

Malruir#2663

I hope they move Volkmar for game 3, so he can fight the chaos that will be coming from the north.

RamsesIII#4621

Removing LLs makes zero sense. Why replace Ghorst with Konrad when simply adding Konrad would use the same amount of resources without removing content and causing controversy? Taking away Sigvald I understand more, but there's still zero chance of him being removed from the pre-order because then players who only bought WH1 or WH1+2 would have their paid content stolen. Making Sigvald available to WH3 users while still offering him as part of the WH1 pre-order is immensely less problematic.

eomat#7953

Old LL's need to stay put. Gelt should never have been moved. We should have rather got Marius Leitdorf instead. Volkar should stay with KF as one day we should get Boris as a full LL with Emil Valgeir both starting at Middenheim.

sasori1548#7252

I would love to see ghorst and volkmar getting moved to southlands.

Ghorst: replace the vampire faction in the southlands. His ultimate goal would be to find powerful necrach artifacts that will make him a powerful lich or maybe a necrach vampire lord

Volkmar: he is on a holy crusade and he starts at sudenburg. His goal is to clense the undead in the name of sigmar. Sigmar fought with nagash in the lore so they could justify this very easily. Volkmars units (flaggelants and knights of the blazing sun) would be very effective in that region aganist tomb kings and vampires

I would love to see this as a mod personally because i dont think CA will ever do this.

saweendra#3399

not going to happen . proof they have not removed any unloreful mount.


and removing them is stupid.

Harkovast#1792

Removing Ghorst doesn't make sense.
If you want another lord just have them in the game as well.

Mogwai_Man#4978

CA will alter their old dlc's by selling you more dlc.

UberReptilian

Ingr8 said:

These are not mistakes, they are creative decisions.

Creative decisions can be mistakes too. Ghorst will always be a blight on this game. Because of him it's doubtful we'll ever see all V Count bloodlines represented.

Bogdanov89#9316

Ghorst is the strangest thing in the game i think.

Even the banshee opera singer somewhat... resembled some funny design.

Ghorst is just... what in the name of holy sigmar were they thinking?
I loved when they "improved" ghorst by giving his corpse carts charge bonuses

These days ghorst actually has kinda interesting bonuses though:
- All units in Helman Ghorst's army receive poison attacks
- Casualty replenishment rates: +20%
- bonus 15 Armour for Zombie units (Lord's army)
- bonus 25% Research
- bonus 3 Corpse cart recruit rank
- Corpse Cart units receive bound spell "Lesser Raise Dead"

Perhaps Ghorst would better serve as a unique hero with powerful faction/army buffs instead of a legendary lord as he is now?

griffithx#1314

TheWattman said:

All in all, the Warhammer series is shaping up to be an amazing trilogy of games, but as we approach the climax of game 3, the apparent and less-apparent mistakes of game 1 are becoming more and more troublesome. For instance, game 1 had a heavy emphasis on multiple lord choices in one starting location, such as the tripple Franz/Volkmar/Gelt in Reikland for the Empire, the double-doubles in Sylvania for the Vampires and the shared position of Grimgor and Azhag for the Greenskins. In fact, the only playable race to not have a double among the base ones was Bretonnia, an FLC race. The Dwarfs had it too with Grombrindal. But that is not the only type of mistake made in the early days. Most prominent otherwise are some very questionable choices for lords and heroes, specifically concerning the Vampires with Helman Ghorst and the non-recruitable summon Krell.

This raises the question: Can these mistakes be fixed? Well, some already has. Gelt has been moved to Solland, Azhag up to Karak Ungor and Kemmler was put in the Grey Mountains. Even Ungrim at first started in Karaz-a-Karak, but was later moved to Karak Kadrin. This is consistent with the theme of game 2 to provide interesting and new start positions with every addition, even to the point they hardly make any sense at all. In any case, some mistakes have been remedied, but certainly not all of them. And some of them might be very difficult to solve, depending on how far CA and even the fanbase are willing to go. Specifically Im thinking of 2 major issues, concerning the aforementioned Ghorst, but also the future of Sigvald the Magnificent.

Problem 1: Ghorst shouldn't be here
Solution: Replace him with Konrad von Carstein or W'Soran/Zacharias?
Complication: Are old released DLCs even possible to edit?
Description:

I think 99% of all of us even remotely familiar with Warhammer lore can agree on that Ghorst should never have been picked as a lord for the Vampires. He doesn't even come close to holding a candle to some other characters and he certainly DOES NOT hold a place in any of their armybooks. This is a real problem for the future if CA wants to really flesh out the Vampire bloodlines, because right now, with only 1 of them represented, they stand at 5 lords. Now, what number of lords for each race will land on is up for debate, but I personally feel if we go above 8, then the full ME becomes just too large to handle and people would just get lost. Still, if we limit ourselves to 8, that still only makes room for 3 other lines and if it came down to it, the Necrarchs would probably lose out on representation, as Neferata, Ushoran and Abhorash would easily distinguish themselves more than any Necrarch ever could.

Now, what should we do about this? Well we obviously can't just remove him entirely, because then WH1 would find itself having a DLC without a 2nd "unique" LL in the Grim & the Grave. That DLC itself has nothing overly thematic about itself, adding only the Strigoi Ghoul King, the Corpse Cart and the Mortis Engine otherwise. So how can we fix this, if its possible to start poking at a DLC now over 4 years old? If the answer is yes, then I would propose replacing Ghorst with either Konrad von Carstein, if we wanna keep the Sylvania faction (and thus change the DLC's name to the Grim & the Butcher/Bloody), or with a Necrarch, either W'Soran or Zacharias the Everliving. If we do the later option, then it requires more work in giving them a start in the Forest of Shadows, either in both WH1 and ME or just in ME, but honestly its less work than doing a fully-themed Necrarch DLC for either WH2 or 3. It would also be a logical pairing, since its still Empire vs Vampires and lots of especially Zacharias's activities were directed against the Empire, even it was specifically against Middenheim, Volkmar is still a more than adequate foe for him to face down. Now obviously, the old trailer has to be redone as well. This way, we would have 3 Carsteins, a Necrarch and Kemmler until the other bloodlines are added, thus ending up with 8 lords, depending on how Nagash is handled. I don't know if this is even possible or acceptable buisness practice, but it would be the most simple way to fix one of Total War Warhammer's biggest problems. Oh and make Krell recruitable while you're at it k thanks? Would you accept such a remake guys?

Problem 2: Sigvald in game 3, either base or DLC again?
Solution: Just remove him in game 1? WoC can manage without him?
Complication: Again, can old DLCs be altered?
Description:

This problem is similar to the first problem, but surprisingly its probably much easier to solve. To be completely honest, I think Undivided Chaos can manage perfectly fine without Sigvald and his mirror guard. Archaon and Kholek are perfect mortal representations and when joined with Be'lakor in game 3, with obvious gameplay and roster updates, they would form a perfectly fine race on their own. Fortunately, the Chaos Warriors trailer, atleast the one on the DLC page, has no reference to Sigvald or Slaanesh at all, so it should be a simple matter of simply removing Sigvald, the mirror guard and their campaign to instead have them in WH3. This would make WoC on par with the other race-packs of WH1, Norsca, Beastmen (Morgur was added half a year after CoB was released) and Wood Elves. I would be fine with this deal to see him again in WH3 with a proper Slaanesh faction, if altering in past DLCs is possible, but what do you guys think?

"Problem 2: Sigvald in game 3, either base or DLC again?"

.....I don't think I really comprehend the stated problem with sigvald.
Maybe you are saying you would want to see a lord pack with slaneesh units so wish he wasn't already in the game so you could get that lord pack?

ChristianSparta#2551

sasori1548 said:

I would love to see ghorst and volkmar getting moved to southlands.

Ghorst: replace the vampire faction in the southlands. His ultimate goal would be to find powerful necrach artifacts that will make him a powerful lich or maybe a necrach vampire lord

Volkmar: he is on a holy crusade and he starts at sudenburg. His goal is to clense the undead in the name of sigmar. Sigmar fought with nagash in the lore so they could justify this very easily. Volkmars units (flaggelants and knights of the blazing sun) would be very effective in that region aganist tomb kings and vampires

I would love to see this as a mod personally because i dont think CA will ever do this.

It would be a nice way to give life to that area.

Mr_Finley7#4571

You can’t remove LLs once they’ve been added, that’s a ridiculous idea to even entertain. Also removing unique start positions for the Empire is equally ridiculous after how much people clamored for them. You don’t care about Volkmar and Gelt that’s fine, but how would you feel if all your favorite races LLs started together in Lothern/Naggarond/Skavenblight/Itza?
Let’s not be hypocritical here.

And for those who say Ghorst is a waste of a missing vampire LL, who says that CA was planning on adding more vampires? Necromancer lords have always been a major facet of the old world undead, with some of them as important as any vampire apart from maybe Vlad (Kemmler/Van Hel/Drachenfels), and I’m sure that’s something CA wanted to reflect. There’s a very good chance they weren’t going to stop with Kemmler, and that if it wasn’t Ghorst it was going to be someone like Dieter Helsnicht.

UberReptilian

Mr_Finley7 said:

And for those who say Ghorst is a waste of a missing vampire LL, who says that CA was planning on adding more vampires? Necromancer lords have always been a major facet of the old world undead, with some of them as important as any vampire apart from maybe Vlad (Kemmler/Van Hel/Drachenfels), and I’m sure that’s something CA wanted to reflect. There’s a very good chance they weren’t going to stop with Kemmler, and that if it wasn’t Ghorst it was going to be someone like Dieter Helsnicht.

I'd rather Dieter because he was an actual character even if an old one. We already had the greatest Necromancer besides Nagash with Kemmler. We didn't need another, but if we did they could've chosen a real one instead of a lame nobody.

The only reason they went with Ghorst is because he has 2 lore paragraphs in an 8th edition supplement that Volkmar was involved in. CA wasn't being creative when they chose him, they adherred to that supplement too tightly. If he had a gimmick that was cool like TTT's air theme than he'd be fine but he doesn't. Make him an LH and be done with it, so we can get some actual LL variation like Neferata or Zacharias/W'soran.

Bronzebeard

Grombrindal can stay as a lord, but it would be nice if he wasnt a starter.

He should be gotten after a quest of some kind, like recapturing one of the old Karaks. Right now he is the obvious starter, which feels wrong!

TheWattman#7460

RamsesIII said:

Removing LLs makes zero sense. Why replace Ghorst with Konrad when simply adding Konrad would use the same amount of resources without removing content and causing controversy? Taking away Sigvald I understand more, but there's still zero chance of him being removed from the pre-order because then players who only bought WH1 or WH1+2 would have their paid content stolen. Making Sigvald available to WH3 users while still offering him as part of the WH1 pre-order is immensely less problematic.

Harkovast said:

Removing Ghorst doesn't make sense.
If you want another lord just have them in the game as well.

Because Ghorst is taking up valueable space in the vampire roster that could be better served by others, depending on how many lords we ultimately land on by the end and how many lords are too much to make the game manageable.

griffithxi said:

"Problem 2: Sigvald in game 3, either base or DLC again?"

.....I don't think I really comprehend the stated problem with sigvald.
Maybe you are saying you would want to see a lord pack with slaneesh units so wish he wasn't already in the game so you could get that lord pack?

Because he's the leading candidate to represent the Warriors of Slaanesh in game 3 and it might be difficult to get him in if he also stays in game 1.

Mr_Finley7 said:

You can’t remove LLs once they’ve been added, that’s a ridiculous idea to even entertain. Also removing unique start positions for the Empire is equally ridiculous after how much people clamored for them. You don’t care about Volkmar and Gelt that’s fine, but how would you feel if all your favorite races LLs started together in Lothern/Naggarond/Skavenblight/Itza?
Let’s not be hypocritical here.

And for those who say Ghorst is a waste of a missing vampire LL, who says that CA was planning on adding more vampires? Necromancer lords have always been a major facet of the old world undead, with some of them as important as any vampire apart from maybe Vlad (Kemmler/Van Hel/Drachenfels), and I’m sure that’s something CA wanted to reflect. There’s a very good chance they weren’t going to stop with Kemmler, and that if it wasn’t Ghorst it was going to be someone like Dieter Helsnicht.

I never said anything about moving Volkmar. And if they added Finubar for the HE I would prefer him to start in Lothern yes, rather than plop him somewhere and claim its part of his voyages (which were before him becoming Phoenix King). I would've prefered some native representation of the Southland Lizardmen rather than 2 Lustrian usurpers (Kroq'Gar starting in Xhotl and Tiktaq'to as LH).

Rob18446

TheWattman said:

RamsesIII said:

Removing LLs makes zero sense. Why replace Ghorst with Konrad when simply adding Konrad would use the same amount of resources without removing content and causing controversy? Taking away Sigvald I understand more, but there's still zero chance of him being removed from the pre-order because then players who only bought WH1 or WH1+2 would have their paid content stolen. Making Sigvald available to WH3 users while still offering him as part of the WH1 pre-order is immensely less problematic.

Harkovast said:

Removing Ghorst doesn't make sense.
If you want another lord just have them in the game as well.

Because Ghorst is taking up valueable space in the vampire roster that could be better served by others, depending on how many lords we ultimately land on by the end and how many lords are too much to make the game manageable.

griffithxi said:

"Problem 2: Sigvald in game 3, either base or DLC again?"

.....I don't think I really comprehend the stated problem with sigvald.
Maybe you are saying you would want to see a lord pack with slaneesh units so wish he wasn't already in the game so you could get that lord pack?

Because he's the leading candidate to represent the Warriors of Slaanesh in game 3 and it might be difficult to get him in if he also stays in game 1.

Mr_Finley7 said:

You can’t remove LLs once they’ve been added, that’s a ridiculous idea to even entertain. Also removing unique start positions for the Empire is equally ridiculous after how much people clamored for them. You don’t care about Volkmar and Gelt that’s fine, but how would you feel if all your favorite races LLs started together in Lothern/Naggarond/Skavenblight/Itza?
Let’s not be hypocritical here.

And for those who say Ghorst is a waste of a missing vampire LL, who says that CA was planning on adding more vampires? Necromancer lords have always been a major facet of the old world undead, with some of them as important as any vampire apart from maybe Vlad (Kemmler/Van Hel/Drachenfels), and I’m sure that’s something CA wanted to reflect. There’s a very good chance they weren’t going to stop with Kemmler, and that if it wasn’t Ghorst it was going to be someone like Dieter Helsnicht.

I never said anything about moving Volkmar. And if they added Finubar for the HE I would prefer him to start in Lothern yes, rather than plop him somewhere and claim its part of his voyages (which were before him becoming Phoenix King). I would've prefered some native representation of the Southland Lizardmen rather than 2 Lustrian usurpers (Kroq'Gar starting in Xhotl and Tiktaq'to as LH).

There is no " valuable space" for Ghorst to take up, CA will add as much stuff as they think is necessary to a faction, they only care about keeping the number of lords balanced while theres enough to go around, once we get to game 3 some races will get finished while others will still have more content added

A_Nobody#8442

Personally, I have nothing against Ghorst. I even hope that his backstory will be expanded at some point.
To the second suggestion: let's wait and see if monogoods are confirmed or not.

Sorry for my disastrous English.

Temudhun#3587

No LL should be removed entirely. Regarding Ghorst, maybe he should be turned into a LH for Manfred (together with Krell for Kemler and Isabella for Vlad) and another LL could be added to the dlc, such as Helsnitch, Zacharias or Walach (personally I'd rather like Zacharias).
Regarding Gormbrindal, he may either be turned into a LH or turned into a horde faction à la Nakai, with the possibility to give the moutaineous holdings he takes to the most relevant dwarf faction, like the Empire does. I actually think Belegar should work the dame way until he takes Karak Height Peaks back.
Volkmar I don't know, he can be pût in any area with undead and/or Chaos. Maybe he could start as a horde too.
Actually you know what? Even Khatep could be a horde. It makes sense lore-wise way more than having him building pyramids in Naggaroth.
But let's go back to topic. I don't see the point of changing Sigvald if CA doesn't go monogods, and even then it doesn't mean the monogods would get both warriors and demons of Chaos. If they do, they may as well get beastmen.

#326161

Fixing is not trowing away conent. try again...

Maelas

Removing LLs is absolutely asinine.

And speaking about asinine, there is something i wanna ask to the "let's keep multiple LLs at the same starting spot" crowd : Y'all do realise than CA will never add a LL to an already occupied spot again right ? In all of WH3, there will be dozens and dozens of LLs added, and they will all have their own distinct start.
Which means that if you don't move old relics of the past like Volkmar or Ghorst, you're gonna end up with a game with up to 100 LLs, and of those there will be FOUR poor sods that aren't on their own! That would be just plain ridiculous.

Cortes31#6909

LordTorquemado said:

Volkmar should stay with Franz in Reikland. It’s bad enough that Gelt isn’t in Altdorf aiding the Emperor.

Indeed. Moving Gelt is a mistake that should have never been done.

Daruwind

Maelas said:

Removing LLs is absolutely asinine.

And speaking about asinine, there is something i wanna ask to the "let's keep multiple LLs at the same starting spot" crowd : Y'all do realise than CA will never add a LL to an already occupied spot again right ? In all of WH3, there will be dozens and dozens of LLs added, and they will all have their own distinct start.
Which means that if you don't move old relics of the past like Volkmar or Ghorst, you're gonna end up with a game with up to 100 LLs, and of those there will be FOUR poor sods that aren't on their own! That would be just plain ridiculous.

Who is saying anything about removing stuff?
-Krell ..change to Krell to be proper LH like Ariel, Mazdamundi is no problem
-Isabella..I would change her to be dual character. If you choose to play her, she will be LL as now. If you are playing for any other VC LL, she will be LH coming with Vlad
-Grombrindal..I would do exactly that as well. If you choose him to play, LL as now. If you are playing any other Dwarf LL, he will be LH
-Gotrek/Felix...firstly Gotrek really should get his skill tree and items, secondly i would really really really prefer them to be proper LHs
-...we can speak about other as Green Knight...

Saandro

Idk why everyone hates on Ghorst, I love him! But I have no idea about WH lore, and WH2 was my first exposure to the world, so...

Anyway, just removing any lord from the game obviously will never happen.