Coeddil unlock

CFoxtrot09

So time for a topic I’m sure will get people rilled up. Should Coeddil be changed to not longer be a campaign exclusive (Unit cap locked)/sub faction exclusive unit (referring to him in MP, Nothing SP related)?

CA made 2 legendary hero’s for the WE this DLC but only Aerial is commonly playable. To use Coeddil you need to be on a MP game that has unit caps unlocked and playing Drycha’s subfaction. This makes it unlikely you will use him in MP unless you specifically set it up for that (and unable in quick battle). CA spent the time and money to design an important lore character and I’m sure players would like to use him.

Don’t get me wrong he is a very powerful character. High armor, health, damage, aoe drain effect, mixed spell caster, powerful abilities. He would be very potent in MP and I completely understand that people are nervous he would wreck the meta. But I would compare him to Aerial, she has aoe drain (on a spell, not constant in melee), powerful de buffs, good melee stats, and she has much more support abilities (particularly with heals). So while Coeddil would be strong, I actually think Aerial is stronger when you take into account her support abilities (Coeddil I’d say is a stronger direct combatant, but doesn’t support as much as Ariel).

As for Coeddil’s weaknesses, it’s largely the same as a normal treeman type unit. He’s a slow, big target, and weak to fire, so people already have to skills to take him down. He also costs an arm and a leg, which is appropriate. If he was available I also don’t see people taking him and Aerial together (outside of meme builds) as that would be most of your army and they would be somewhat redundant. They are both good blob busters, but not as good against larger targets. So if Coeddil is redundant with Aerial why unlock him? Because he would give players more options and he’s freakin cool. Yes there are lore reasons for him to be restricted to Drycha’s faction, and in SP that makes sense, but for MP I’m not too concerned about that.

I would expect if he was unlocked he would need to be tuned. Either nerf some of his abilities or increase their cost. I’d rather they don’t remove any of his abilities as they are part of what makes him interesting.

So, let me know. Would you like to see Coeddil unlocked for all WE factions in all MP games? And if he was would you like some of his abilities to be nerfed (or buffed if you’re a mad man)? Thanks and I look forward to everyone’s opinions! (And Happy New Year’s to everyone!)

BjornNorlinder#2423

No

Lotus_Moon#2452

His very OP, so dont think he should, but if he got balanced out i think he should be added to drychas subfaction.

Odysseus95

Only if he's balanced properly, I can see him for Drycha's sub-faction, yeah.

CFoxtrot09

Odysseus95 said:

Only if he's balanced properly, I can see him for Drycha's sub-faction, yeah.

What do you think would be needed to get him balanced? Would it just be adjusting some of his abilities or would you like to see his base stats changed?

I think his abilities are his biggest issue. His constant (while in melee) aoe drain is always going to be strong. Usually those effects aren’t on such a durable unit (that I can think of). But I think that is kinda a big signature move for him. I worry that if they remove too much then he would become too generic. I could see his 100% vigor debuff being reduced.

It just seems such a waste to have such an Interesting character that is so restricted in MP use.

yst#1879

Lots of wasted opportunity so dont expect much. Even alastair isnt in, which is joke, and many of those garrison helf guards

Even blessed saurus arent in, feral wyverns etc. what a mega waste of resources

mightygloin#2446

Yes with appropriate pricing, at least in the subfaction. Why waste him in just campaign?

This also goes for all the special units of Drycha's. Her faction being just another generic subfaction in custom battles is a missed oppurtunity. Could be a good prototype for a properly different sub.

lucibuis#6195

No please else we’d get the same lamentations we’re getting about Ariel.

Ariel should be the same actually, usable only with unit caps to stop the mess

Odysseus95

CFoxtrot09 said:

Odysseus95 said:

Only if he's balanced properly, I can see him for Drycha's sub-faction, yeah.

What do you think would be needed to get him balanced? Would it just be adjusting some of his abilities or would you like to see his base stats changed?

I think his abilities are his biggest issue. His constant (while in melee) aoe drain is always going to be strong. Usually those effects aren’t on such a durable unit (that I can think of). But I think that is kinda a big signature move for him. I worry that if they remove too much then he would become too generic. I could see his 100% vigor debuff being reduced.

It just seems such a waste to have such an Interesting character that is so restricted in MP use.

I'm afraid he'd need a full rebalancing of his abilities, as well heavy tweaking to his stats and a respectable price tag increase, similar to Durthu. Something like this:
1. Base price from 1800 to 2000-2100 (if you want to keep the Unbreakable).
2. To distinguish from Durthu (offensive vs defensive), his melee stats should be more akin to a Rank 9 Treeman, MA from 70 to 56, MD from 42 to 68, Weapon Strength from 510 to 450 (140-310 split), in between a Treeman and Durthu. Charge Bonus can optionally be tweaked. Between 30 and 40 is fine.
3. Abilities are completely busted. Full fatigue debuff ratio on 3-charge ability (Muster of Malevolents) is even overpowered in SP, not sure what they were thinking. There are many ways to balance it though. I would do something like this: Lower fatigue ratio by a minimum of 50-66% (so to 50-33% at the very least), then make it single-use. Or, if the three charges were to remain, I would lower the fatigue ratio further, to about 9-18%, more akin to Bestial Surge/Plague Rash. It's Spirit Leech otherwise.
4. Mortis Engine effect on an Unbreakable Rank 9 Treeman (with the ungodly durability), I only see being properly balanced if he's super expensive/the ability is super expensive (Shredder of Lustria-level expensive), or if the mortis engine effect activates under certain conditions, like the Tomb King Curse. So maybe his ME aura would activate under 50% health. Not sure what else could be done? I'd rather fix than remove content from a game, unless completely necessary.
5. The fact that he also has Transformation of Khadon already makes him a favourable pick. His only real downside is his meh MD and lack of healing currently, but it doesn't really matter, since everything else is completely out of whack.

In a duel, especially with his abilities, Coeddil will easily trash pretty much everyone, including the Shredder of Lustria. He's completely busted (Once again, not sure what the DLC team was thinking making him that overtuned).

Also, I agree with mightygloin here. Not giving Malevolent tree units to Drycha's sub-faction was a missed opportunity. I would have at the very least liked to see Malevolent Dryads and Treemen in there.

Sarmatianns#6760

You could unlock Coeddil into "campaign exclusive" units...

CFoxtrot09

Sarmatianns said:

You could unlock Coeddil into "campaign exclusive" units...

Im not sure I follow exactly what you mean. Are you saying he could Still be a campaign exclusive unit but usable in all factions?

Sarmatianns#6760

CFoxtrot09 said:

Sarmatianns said:

You could unlock Coeddil into "campaign exclusive" units...

Im not sure I follow exactly what you mean. Are you saying he could Still be a campaign exclusive unit but usable in all factions?

No, he would be usable in lobbied multiplayer battles (not QB) if the host doesn't tick "use unit caps", like all other campaign exclusives, ie. blessed units for lizards, additional Empire units (greatswords of Carroburg) etc...

Loupi#8512

Sarmatianns said:

CFoxtrot09 said:

Sarmatianns said:

You could unlock Coeddil into "campaign exclusive" units...

Im not sure I follow exactly what you mean. Are you saying he could Still be a campaign exclusive unit but usable in all factions?

No, he would be usable in lobbied multiplayer battles (not QB) if the host doesn't tick "use unit caps", like all other campaign exclusives, ie. blessed units for lizards, additional Empire units (greatswords of Carroburg) etc...

this is the case now

Loupi#8512

speaking of campaign only units and subfaction locked units, we need shadow walkers in main HE faction. They are one of the only faction without poison.

CFoxtrot09

Odysseus95 said:

CFoxtrot09 said:

Odysseus95 said:

Only if he's balanced properly, I can see him for Drycha's sub-faction, yeah.

What do you think would be needed to get him balanced? Would it just be adjusting some of his abilities or would you like to see his base stats changed?

I think his abilities are his biggest issue. His constant (while in melee) aoe drain is always going to be strong. Usually those effects aren’t on such a durable unit (that I can think of). But I think that is kinda a big signature move for him. I worry that if they remove too much then he would become too generic. I could see his 100% vigor debuff being reduced.

It just seems such a waste to have such an Interesting character that is so restricted in MP use.

I'm afraid he'd need a full rebalancing of his abilities, as well heavy tweaking to his stats and a respectable price tag increase, similar to Durthu. Something like this:
1. Base price from 1800 to 2000-2100 (if you want to keep the Unbreakable).
2. To distinguish from Durthu (offensive vs defensive), his melee stats should be more akin to a Rank 9 Treeman, MA from 70 to 56, MD from 42 to 68, Weapon Strength from 510 to 450 (140-310 split), in between a Treeman and Durthu. Charge Bonus can optionally be tweaked. Between 30 and 40 is fine.
3. Abilities are completely busted. Full fatigue debuff ratio on 3-charge ability (Muster of Malevolents) is even overpowered in SP, not sure what they were thinking. There are many ways to balance it though. I would do something like this: Lower fatigue ratio by a minimum of 50-66% (so to 50-33% at the very least), then make it single-use. Or, if the three charges were to remain, I would lower the fatigue ratio further, to about 9-18%, more akin to Bestial Surge/Plague Rash. It's Spirit Leech otherwise.
4. Mortis Engine effect on an Unbreakable Rank 9 Treeman (with the ungodly durability), I only see being properly balanced if he's super expensive/the ability is super expensive (Shredder of Lustria-level expensive), or if the mortis engine effect activates under certain conditions, like the Tomb King Curse. So maybe his ME aura would activate under 50% health. Not sure what else could be done? I'd rather fix than remove content from a game, unless completely necessary.
5. The fact that he also has Transformation of Khadon already makes him a favourable pick. His only real downside is his meh MD and lack of healing currently, but it doesn't really matter, since everything else is completely out of whack.

In a duel, especially with his abilities, Coeddil will easily trash pretty much everyone, including the Shredder of Lustria. He's completely busted (Once again, not sure what the DLC team was thinking making him that overtuned).

Also, I agree with mightygloin here. Not giving Malevolent tree units to Drycha's sub-faction was a missed opportunity. I would have at the very least liked to see Malevolent Dryads and Treemen in there.

Interesting idea to make him a more tanky unit. He could work as a strong anchor piece and focus more on his abilities/spells to do his work as opposed to raw attack. Would be a nice alternative.

Yeah that Muster of Malevolence vigor debuff is crazy. I agree either drop the debuff amount a good bit or drop it less and reduce the uses.

As for ME effect, I wonder if they could change it to an activatable ability. I would probably keep it unlimited uses but now it would have a restricted amount of time it active and you could put a good cool down duration on it (or make it cool down while in melee). This way it more tactical as to when people choose to use it and good players can bait it out/wait it out. But it would still keep some of his flavor.

I wonder if the DLC team just wanted to make a completely busted unit for fun. If they planned to make him a campaign exclusive unit from the start they probably didn’t bother even trying to balance him out. I kinda like the ability to have a crazy powerful unit like that in SP, but if they’re that fun I’d also like to be able to use them in MP. If they wanted to keep him powerful in SP they could drop his abilities to what his MP balanced form would be then just give him crazy upgrades in his tree. Again just seems like such a waste of a neat character.

CFoxtrot09

Loupi_ said:

Sarmatianns said:

CFoxtrot09 said:

Sarmatianns said:

You could unlock Coeddil into "campaign exclusive" units...

Im not sure I follow exactly what you mean. Are you saying he could Still be a campaign exclusive unit but usable in all factions?

No, he would be usable in lobbied multiplayer battles (not QB) if the host doesn't tick "use unit caps", like all other campaign exclusives, ie. blessed units for lizards, additional Empire units (greatswords of Carroburg) etc...

this is the case now

That’s my understanding as well. And he is locked to Drycha’s subfaction. I don’t mind the reskin units (greatsword of Carroburg, etc) being locked with the “use unit caps” enable or in QB. However. Coeddil is a unique legendary hero (sure he borrow heavily from the treeman/Druthu animations/model), and he has custom abilities and a unique spell selection. He performs very differently from any other treeman model unit.

CFoxtrot09

Loupi_ said:

speaking of campaign only units and subfaction locked units, we need shadow walkers in main HE faction. They are one of the only faction without poison.

I think CA need to rethink the whole subfaction idea as it pertains to MP. In SP subfaction a get different bonuses and penalties that shift it a bit from how the faction as a whole plays, thus adding replay ability. However in MP you don’t have these subfaction bonuses/penalty. So the only thing that really changes is you restrict your LL options for maybe 1 unique unit or hero option. Many times these subfactions in MP don’t have any difference from the generic main faction, only less LL options and some color pallet swaps.

As it stands the main generic faction are all differentiated enough from each other. Either the Subfactions need to be differentiated enough from the other subfactions/generic faction to be worthwhile or just remove the subfaction option and put any units that were subfaction specific into the generic faction. I think it would be too much work for CA to significantly differentiate all subfactions enough for each race. Especially when game 3 comes out. The faction selection panel in the MP lobby is already too crowded.

They could even add an option to select your color pallet. Now if you want to rock your favorite subfactions colors you don’t have to limit you play style options.

Yosenhimen#6538

Daddy Autumn would ****.

I chose every word in the above sentence carefully, to convey my message to the best of my ability.

Sarmatianns#6760

Loupi_ said:

speaking of campaign only units and subfaction locked units, we need shadow walkers in main HE faction. They are one of the only faction without poison.

Really? I had no idea...

I've skimmed those units and didn't notice him.

Pocman#6295

There is a reason why treeman and treeman lord are so ****, and it's precisely them being too tanky and not offense oriented enough.

CFoxtrot09

Green0 said:

people are actually asking to introduce a new Mortis Engine effect into MP... lol...

I was looking to make the unit more available in MP. Is his Mortis Engine effect the only thing you have an issue with?

If so, there have been a few ideas of how to tune it down so it wouldn’t be as powerful. I discussed making it an activatable ability that recharges while in melee or with a long cool down. Odysseus95 mentioned making it only activate once Coeddil is under 50% health. There are also many other conditions that could be chosen for making it activate.

I understand that many people dislike the Mortis Engine effect. I’m not saying I love it, but I think we shouldn’t discount an entire unit just because it has that ability. We can work together to find a way to still make the unit fun and viable whether it has that effect in some manner or if it’s removed.

CFoxtrot09

Yosenhimen said:

Daddy Autumn would ****.

I chose every word in the above sentence carefully, to convey my message to the best of my ability.

How would you recommend we make Daddy Autumn less likely to do that?

I think simply excluding a unit because we don’t think it is balanced is bad game design. So let’s discuss how we would balance the unit for standard MP use.

Odysseus95 has several interesting options for balancing Coeddil. How do you feel about his recommendations? I do believe Coeddil can be adjusted to be strong but balanced for standard MP use.