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High Elves Ideas

BastileanBastilean Registered Users Posts: 1,387
If HE really are C or D tier, could we add +1 MA to Martial Prowess and MMastery and see how it goes? or is that too drastic?

It would be a lot easier than editing individual units. Maybe I am just being lazy.

Also, what about magic damage on Silverins. They could have the same concept as silver bullets but instead they have silver spear heads. This could be useful in a number of match ups, and you don't need spears against dwarves. Could be lore appropriate if the agents of Yvress had magic piercing tips to combat demons, and would give them more of a unique niche to perform in.

Comments

  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 7,085
    high elves aren't C or D tier, whatever that means anway. They're fine.
  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 8,516
    edited January 15
    With that much stupidly overtuned and underpriced unit, its gonna be many years before they r finally balanced, if ever

    Good thing they release welf, otherwise those boring helf spam games getting so dull
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  • AnalogAnalog Registered Users Posts: 278
    yst said:

    With that much stupidly overtuned and underpriced unit, its gonna be many years before they r finally balanced, if ever

    Good thing they release welf, otherwise those boring helf spam games getting so dull

    I look forward to one day playing these exceptional HE with their unbeatable roster. They sound like a fairytale,
    Best in every class unit
    Over tuned and under priced units
    Never ever nerfed
    And completely fictional.

  • BjornNorlinderBjornNorlinder Registered Users Posts: 631
    High Elves are actually quite good. Weird idea to buff a race just cuz someone, im guessing Felkon, has them in the C tier.
  • clibanariiclibanarii Registered Users Posts: 30
    edited January 15
    I believe slight cost adjustments for relatively unpopular units(archers with light armour, silver helms with shields etc), RoR(The Grey, Talons of Tor Caleda comes to mind), and unique items(Alith Anar's) would suffice. HE seems to be a solid mid-tier faction even at worst.

    Although I must add that Scythes of Isha, the Silver Helms RoR with AP melee that was ultimately cut from the game, would give HE players interesting choices.
  • The_real_FAUSTThe_real_FAUST Registered Users Posts: 1,262
    HE are in a fine spot and silverins also.

    Some tweaks around the edges but nothing drastic required
  • turrehundturrehund Registered Users Posts: 321
    I'd more like to see Martial Prowess repurposed. There are an infinite amount of posts complaining about "This High Elf unit trades above cost in a 1v1 with this unit!!! Nerf!!!" without taking into consideration that the trade turns into a stompfest if the unit loses MP. Even worse with Martial Mastery. It's like balancing Greenskin units by how well they trade while Waagh! is active.

    This makes it impossible to balance their roster properly as the only metrics you're able to use is some vague idea of how well they perform in a real battlefield scenario, and you often feel forced to take Lore of Life because of how well it synergizes with MP. It's just an awfully gimmicky faction mechanic that more often than not feels like a weakness.

    Maybe make it into +6/+6/+X Reload Skill and give some minor MD buffs all around the roster to compensate? Or maybe balance it around models instead of HP. I really don't know, I wish they'd just scrap it altogether.
  • SarmatiannsSarmatianns Registered Users Posts: 4,579
    edited January 15
    Well, MP/MM needs to be removed from all Single Entities.

    You could tie it to model number, but then it needs to be nerfed somewhat as it will be active far longer, probably 1/8 instead of 2/12.

    I don't know where the idea that HE units suck without MP/MM comes from, but I strongly disagree with it.

    You pay 200 more for Dragon Princes compared to Wild Riders.

    For just 200 gold more, you get:

    -45 HP
    -7 speed
    -20% missile block chance
    -Frenzy

    +15 LD
    +70 armour
    +2 MA
    +1 MD
    +2 WS
    +18 CB
    +70% fire resistance
    +Martial Mastery

    That's great value for just 200.
  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 7,512
    edited January 15
    Bastilean said:

    If HE really are C or D tier, could we add +1 MA to Martial Prowess and MMastery and see how it goes? or is that too drastic?

    It would be a lot easier than editing individual units. Maybe I am just being lazy.

    Also, what about magic damage on Silverins. They could have the same concept as silver bullets but instead they have silver spear heads. This could be useful in a number of match ups, and you don't need spears against dwarves. Could be lore appropriate if the agents of Yvress had magic piercing tips to combat demons, and would give them more of a unique niche to perform in.

    it probably wouldn't be enough to bump them to being a "meta faction" or "close to meta".
    eumaies said:

    high elves aren't C or D tier, whatever that means anway. They're fine.

    HE are "fine", if you admit that the top 5 factions need BIG nerfs. There are 2 ways to view the problem, either HE are fine and 3-5 factions are oppressive/overpowered, or HE need buffs.

    I personally think that powercreeping games is bad, so I agree HE are fine but the caveat is that SK, WE, GS, BR and maybe even LZ (small nerf here) need big nerfs.

    My personal suggestions for HE (again, assuming current meta factions get BIG nerfs, I am not trying to make HE OP here, merely help units on the weak side):

    - Spearmen: +2 MA or -25g.
    - Silverin Guards: +1 AP, -1 regular
    - Tiranoc Chariots: -50g
    - Scions of Mathlann: rework their aura to either be a Missile Resist. aura (with no WoM condition), or just rework them totally. The key concept here is that in pure 1 for 1 considerations, these guys are not very good for 850g.
    - The Grey: -75g
    - Everqueen's Court Guards: -50g, +10 armor (this is a bit of an overbuff that would make the unit feel "fairly strong", but it's an RoR and as such only 1 unit and I feel for 1350g an archer unit is easily punishable by artillery & similar)
    - Storm Riders: +50g, +silver shield, +8 MD, -3 speed
    - Silver Helms (shields): +2 MD
    - Ithilmar Chariots: -150g
    - War Lions of Chrace (both regular and RoR): -25g
    - Frostheart Phoenix: Aura changed from -12% WS to -20%
    - Omen of Asuryan: +600 HP

    Not all of these changes need to be applied at once, this is more aimed at making never-seen HE units playable, I highlighted in bold letters the ones I consider a stronger priority.
    mightygloin_fan_1
  • PocmanPocman Registered Users Posts: 4,114
    Even if HE were UP, this would be a terrible idea.

  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 7,085
    There is no “top 5” factions. There are whatever factions got dlc and haven’t been nerfed yet. Basically, Skaven and wood elves.

    Coast was nerfed heavily; greenskins got substantial nerfs; high elves got substantial nerfs post dlc.

  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 7,512
    eumaies said:

    There is no “top 5” factions. There are whatever factions got dlc and haven’t been nerfed yet. Basically, Skaven and wood elves.

    Coast was nerfed heavily; greenskins got substantial nerfs; high elves got substantial nerfs post dlc.

    you might read again my list: GS didn't get any "substantial" nerfs and are still very OP; Bret is very OP. Both of the factions in the latest DLC are OP. That's 4 out of 5 for you, interesting how all of them have access to ranged poison also.
    mightygloin_fan_1
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 7,085
    Green0 said:

    eumaies said:

    There is no “top 5” factions. There are whatever factions got dlc and haven’t been nerfed yet. Basically, Skaven and wood elves.

    Coast was nerfed heavily; greenskins got substantial nerfs; high elves got substantial nerfs post dlc.

    you might read again my list: GS didn't get any "substantial" nerfs and are still very OP; Bret is very OP. Both of the factions in the latest DLC are OP. That's 4 out of 5 for you, interesting how all of them have access to ranged poison also.
    That’s strange. Greenskins got exactly the nerfs everyone was clamoring for.

    More expensive /weaker skirmish cav
    +50 cost to every build with loonies price increase
    Bobb price increase
    And a little stone troll nerf to boot.

    Bret cavalry is less able to ride through infantry making more builds viable Vs them.

  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 7,512
    edited January 15
    eumaies said:

    Green0 said:

    eumaies said:

    There is no “top 5” factions. There are whatever factions got dlc and haven’t been nerfed yet. Basically, Skaven and wood elves.

    Coast was nerfed heavily; greenskins got substantial nerfs; high elves got substantial nerfs post dlc.

    you might read again my list: GS didn't get any "substantial" nerfs and are still very OP; Bret is very OP. Both of the factions in the latest DLC are OP. That's 4 out of 5 for you, interesting how all of them have access to ranged poison also.
    That’s strange. Greenskins got exactly the nerfs everyone was clamoring for.

    More expensive /weaker skirmish cav
    +50 cost to every build with loonies price increase
    Bobb price increase
    And a little stone troll nerf to boot.

    Bret cavalry is less able to ride through infantry making more builds viable Vs them.

    they got nerfs to the right units but the size of the nerfs was too small.

    Fanatics RoR still OP, Fungi still OP, all GS missile cav still OP.

    As for Brets, Paladins still OP, Pox Bowmen still OP, QK still OP, KotR on the verge of being OP, all Bret LLs are OP. Gotrek is OP. It's really not "just the cav".
    mightygloin_fan_1
  • outrage4outrage4 master engineerRegistered Users Posts: 422
    GS weren't nerfed enough yet. Recent tournamets show that GS dominate MP along with SKV and WE. GS been top teir faction for about 8 months now.

    Skirmish cav: Spider/wolf riders archers could easily get +25 gold and still be a good unit.

    Wolf rider archers RoR didn't get +25 along with regular unit last patch, they should now.

    Other things that could be nerfed is Grom, Waaagh ability.
  • ShevaTsarShevaTsar Registered Users Posts: 410
    outrage4 said:

    GS weren't nerfed enough yet. Recent tournamets show that GS dominate MP along with SKV and WE. GS been top teir faction for about 8 months now.

    Skirmish cav: Spider/wolf riders archers could easily get +25 gold and still be a good unit.

    Wolf rider archers RoR didn't get +25 along with regular unit last patch, they should now.

    Other things that could be nerfed is Grom, Waaagh ability.

    Agreed.

    Also after the recent changes to mass and knockdown i thought it would be a nobrainer, but apparently not. Loose formation needs to be looked at too, for way too long it has been advantageous in every single aspect.

  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 7,085
    well i think this thread proves that factions can only exist in a quasi-state of OP and UP, never balanced. to me, high elves and greenskins are both in a good spot now.
  • saweendrasaweendra Registered Users Posts: 9,737
    Green0 said:

    eumaies said:

    There is no “top 5” factions. There are whatever factions got dlc and haven’t been nerfed yet. Basically, Skaven and wood elves.

    Coast was nerfed heavily; greenskins got substantial nerfs; high elves got substantial nerfs post dlc.

    you might read again my list: GS didn't get any "substantial" nerfs and are still very OP; Bret is very OP. Both of the factions in the latest DLC are OP. That's 4 out of 5 for you, interesting how all of them have access to ranged poison also.
    Ask for moving shadow walker to HE main faction , that will fix your issue.
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 5,824
    I'll finish up my big fat post tonight I think since HE is discussed again.
  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 7,512
    saweendra said:

    Green0 said:

    eumaies said:

    There is no “top 5” factions. There are whatever factions got dlc and haven’t been nerfed yet. Basically, Skaven and wood elves.

    Coast was nerfed heavily; greenskins got substantial nerfs; high elves got substantial nerfs post dlc.

    you might read again my list: GS didn't get any "substantial" nerfs and are still very OP; Bret is very OP. Both of the factions in the latest DLC are OP. That's 4 out of 5 for you, interesting how all of them have access to ranged poison also.
    Ask for moving shadow walker to HE main faction , that will fix your issue.
    Shadow Walkers won't enable HE roster with poison in the same way as in GS roster as they are very expensive and as such not spammable. Very often you need to make big compromises to fit them in. Furthermore, you can already play them in Nagarythe roster, Nagarythe is very playable, only 2 big downsides of Nagarythe is that you get neither Alarielle nor Teclis but you can roll with Archmage of Life, it's basically the same as Alarielle so I am not sure what the issue here is.
    mightygloin_fan_1
  • saweendrasaweendra Registered Users Posts: 9,737
    Green0 said:

    saweendra said:

    Green0 said:

    eumaies said:

    There is no “top 5” factions. There are whatever factions got dlc and haven’t been nerfed yet. Basically, Skaven and wood elves.

    Coast was nerfed heavily; greenskins got substantial nerfs; high elves got substantial nerfs post dlc.

    you might read again my list: GS didn't get any "substantial" nerfs and are still very OP; Bret is very OP. Both of the factions in the latest DLC are OP. That's 4 out of 5 for you, interesting how all of them have access to ranged poison also.
    Ask for moving shadow walker to HE main faction , that will fix your issue.
    Shadow Walkers won't enable HE roster with poison in the same way as in GS roster as they are very expensive and as such not spammable. Very often you need to make big compromises to fit them in. Furthermore, you can already play them in Nagarythe roster, Nagarythe is very playable, only 2 big downsides of Nagarythe is that you get neither Alarielle nor Teclis but you can roll with Archmage of Life, it's basically the same as Alarielle so I am not sure what the issue here is.
    you only really need one unit the poison the engagement, if there in main faction , yes you can play with larry and peclis who are better than archmage in life
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc
  • AnalogAnalog Registered Users Posts: 278
    yst said:

    Analog said:


    I look forward to one day playing these exceptional HE with their unbeatable roster. They sound like a fairytale,
    Best in every class unit
    Over tuned and under priced units
    Never ever nerfed
    And completely fictional.

    Yea i suppose thats why we got like 15 helf mains here because they r just such a garbage faction lol

    You realise there are other reasons someone might choose to play a faction outside of their ability to draw kite right?
    Not everyone chooses to play a faction on their competitive viability alone.

    If the size of the player base means so much, am i to look forward to your summations of dawi OPness?
    plenty of dwarf players here, must be the factions op right??
  • MamaLuigiMamaLuigi Registered Users Posts: 91
    outrage4 said:

    GS weren't nerfed enough yet. Recent tournamets show that GS dominate MP along with SKV and WE. GS been top teir faction for about 8 months now.

    Skirmish cav: Spider/wolf riders archers could easily get +25 gold and still be a good unit.

    Wolf rider archers RoR didn't get +25 along with regular unit last patch, they should now.

    Other things that could be nerfed is Grom, Waaagh ability.

    I would add savage big uns to that list
  • BastileanBastilean Registered Users Posts: 1,387
    edited January 16
    "You could tie it to model number"

    I generally support this, but...

    The tables don't currently support abilities based on model number. Nothing so simple is impossible. Obviously, CA could write in new situations into the tables, but I just thought I would point out that it would require more than a little extra work.

    Another idea:
    There is a 25% health threshold also, which got me thinking. Eltharion has Grim Determination. Silverin are from Tor Yvresse and tasked with guarding the watch stone. What if Silverin had -6 MA, but they also received Grim Determination which only shuts off when the unit health is reduced below 25%? It wouldn't be entirely a buff or a nerf. It would also tie them in thematically to Tor Yvresse since I am not sure most players even know that Silverin are from Tor Yvresse based on the campaign.
  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 8,516
    Analog said:


    If the size of the player base means so much, am i to look forward to your summations of dawi OPness?
    plenty of dwarf players here, must be the factions op right??

    Doubt that lol, theres less than 4 dwf players here at maxi actually doubt theres more than 3

    Anyway not really interested in stupidly overtuned factions like helf and welf. The more ridiculously op they r the better. That just gets to show how one sided orges and chaos dwf gonna be upon release. Then u have voast, nosca, beastman all those 3 garbage faction getting revamp and dlc

    Phoenix, rangers, white lions, drag princes yada yada same old story yet none has been fixed so lets just keep them that way so comes war 3 we can have a massive powercreep
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  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 5,824
    Reality check: failed
  • PocmanPocman Registered Users Posts: 4,114
    yst said:

    Analog said:


    I look forward to one day playing these exceptional HE with their unbeatable roster. They sound like a fairytale,
    Best in every class unit
    Over tuned and under priced units
    Never ever nerfed
    And completely fictional.

    Yea i suppose thats why we got like 15 helf mains here because they r just such a garbage faction lol

    Who?
  • turrehundturrehund Registered Users Posts: 321

    Well, MP/MM needs to be removed from all Single Entities.

    You could tie it to model number, but then it needs to be nerfed somewhat as it will be active far longer, probably 1/8 instead of 2/12.

    I don't know where the idea that HE units suck without MP/MM comes from, but I strongly disagree with it.

    You pay 200 more for Dragon Princes compared to Wild Riders.

    For just 200 gold more, you get:

    -45 HP
    -7 speed
    -20% missile block chance
    -Frenzy

    +15 LD
    +70 armour
    +2 MA
    +1 MD
    +2 WS
    +18 CB
    +70% fire resistance
    +Martial Mastery

    That's great value for just 200.

    I don't disagree with the fact that Dragon Princes are a good unit, what I take issue with are posts using 1v1 duel comparisons to argue whether or not they are an overpowered unit. Rangers are also a very good unit, White Lions are decent. For units that absolutely do suck with Martial Prowess off: See Spearmen.

    The issue I have with Martial Prowess is that it's way too gimmicky and causes a balancing mess, not that every single unit with the ability is underpowered. Martial Prowess is just generally not an interesting or fun faction mechanic to play with or against. A rework of the mechanic combined with nerfs to SEM healing abuse might give High Elf players options to do something other than SEM cancer builds.
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