Please register for Total War Access to use the forums. If you're an existing user, your forum details will be merged with Total War Access if you register with the same email or username. For more information please read our FAQ’s here.
The question for this sort of thing is always the same: Would you buy it if it was made? I bet very few of us would answer no to that. I would pay at the earliest opportunity for it.
But do you think the people who don't visit the forums would pay for it? Sadly, i'm not sure if it has a large enough appeal that people would rush to buy it at full price.
When the trailer would hit: - People will see Greenskins on Wolves - People will hear Throat singing - People would see a Dread Maw breaking through the Ground like the Krayt Dragon in Mandalorian.
Trust me, they will pay. They will definitely pay. Steppe Nomads and Mongolians as well as Goblins are super popular.
Brainstorming a Hobgoblin Khanate trailer is pretty interesting. I reckon the chew toy faction would either be the Ogre Kingdoms or Kislev.
Kislev would work perfectly.
- Throat singing music playing. - Camera Ride over the endless steppes. - 2 Cavalry armies charging into each other. - Mongolian styled Wolf Riders fighting Winged Lancers. - Hobgobla Khan laughing mad and acts like Gengis Khan. - A Golden Horde pun. - More fighting. - Then a Dreadmaw breaks through the ground and snacks a Bear like a Banta on Tatooine. - Another Golden Horde pun.
The question for this sort of thing is always the same: Would you buy it if it was made? I bet very few of us would answer no to that. I would pay at the earliest opportunity for it.
But do you think the people who don't visit the forums would pay for it? Sadly, i'm not sure if it has a large enough appeal that people would rush to buy it at full price.
When the trailer would hit: - People will see Greenskins on Wolves - People will hear Throat singing - People would see a Dread Maw breaking through the Ground like the Krayt Dragon in Mandalorian.
Trust me, they will pay. They will definitely pay. Steppe Nomads and Mongolians as well as Goblins are super popular.
Brainstorming a Hobgoblin Khanate trailer is pretty interesting. I reckon the chew toy faction would either be the Ogre Kingdoms or Kislev.
There is so much content available for CA to pull from—even flat out create. I personally think TWW3 will have a production cycle twice that of TWW2– as long as there is a demand. I’m looking around here and everywhere else and that doesn’t look like it’s changing. Over time it might even grow with the way they expanding (mobile gamers). All this to say is, yes EVERYTHING won’t make the cut, but I think for the majority of the warhammer fantasy content out there, it’s more of a question of when it’s coming not if it’s coming.
@ArneSo I don't know if you'd consider it, as it's not strictly a Hobgoblin thing, but I recall that in the Skarsnik book he spent time with Badlands goblins that used ballista mounted on wolf-drawn carts. Something similar to Empire War Wagons; might be fitting.
There is so much content available for CA to pull from—even flat out create. I personally think TWW3 will have a production cycle twice that of TWW2– as long as there is a demand. I’m looking around here and everywhere else and that doesn’t look like it’s changing. Over time it might even grow with the way they expanding (mobile gamers). All this to say is, yes EVERYTHING won’t make the cut, but I think for the majority of the warhammer fantasy content out there, it’s more of a question of when it’s coming not if it’s coming.
Don’t you dare doubt my Chaos Dwarf bazukas again!
I recall they still have the bazukas, in the lore only, so in Tamurkhan: Throne of Chaos, there is mention of the magma/lava pits beneath what I think was the Highest Temple of Hashut, Magma/Lava Trolls are drawn to this area of the Temple like moths to a flame, and so the Chaos Dwarfs will use modified bazukas to capture them for later use. Above mentions the bazuka and even the swivel gun. I'm trying to find the part about the Magma/Lava Trolls I mentioned, but its hard to do while taking care of a teething 10 month old child at 4 in the morning :P.
Found it, seems its not the Temple of Hashut, but I remember reading somewhere that the Magma/Lava Trolls were drawn to the area, if I find it ill post it, but for now this is good enough.
Lastly to the Thread, please no stealing of Gorduz Backstabber, honestly I meant to do a write up about how the Hobgoblins are needed, not just a fun add one but needed for the Chaos Dwarf Army. I would like to see the Hobgoblins have a two tree option, 1) They focus on the Backstabby ways, and make for excellent assassins and DPS Heroes, and 2) They focus on the enslaving and corralling of slaves, how I want this to play is they give buffs to Greenskins Slaves, and make them less likely to run, so long as said Hobgoblin Khan does not flee himself, to still show the animosity between the Greenskins and the Hobgoblins, I want to see it where if the Hobgoblin Khan is of low level, he can only keep say 3 Greenskin Slave Troops in line, any more then this and the morale of all Greenskin slaves are very low, the only troops the Hobgoblins probably won't be able to buff would be the Black Orcs.
Lastly, I have been working on a idea, what if, for the Chaos Dwarf's Hobgoblin Khan(Hero) they can, at level 20, chose a new skill, this skill would allow said Hobgoblin Khan to actually work as another Lord, leading armies, but the army must be all Slave Troops, and the amount of Slaves he can successfully lead is based on this skill being upgraded at every 5 levels. Basically this would more or less be akin to the Greenskins WAAAGH! but one you have complete control over, back draw is simple, its a skill heavy line meaning the Hobgoblin would be awful at any other task, it would take all he had and then some to not get ripped to pieces by his Slave Troops, and the only war machine he would have access to would be of Hobgoblin make(Hobgoblin Bolt Throwers, Hobgoblin Rock Thrower).
The way I imagine it is like this- level 20= 5 Slave Troops 25= 10 30= 15 35= 20 40= choice of either 2 Black Orcs, or 2 units of Chaos Dwarf Hunting Party(imagine the Great White Hunters of Africa, basically these Dawi Zharr are on a hunting/slaving expedition, so they see the Hobgoblin Khan more as a Savage Scout then a leader, this unit should consist of Regular Dawi Zharr carrying the Hailshot Blunderbuss)
Please not its a rough draft, and I don't mean for it to be overpowered, to make it work and not be broken I would imagine these troops would have a higher tax upkeep, and again unless the Hobgoblin Khan was specked to be a pure Slave Master(Meaning his own fighting/assassination skills would be near non-existent) then the troops would suffer from massive morale penalties, not to mention said Hobgoblin may just say "Zod Dis!" and take his troops with him as he rebels to forge his own Khanate.
Hear the summons of Hashut! The Dark Father calls you to slaughter, Blood and fire exhorts you to war! Hear the summons of Hashut! Stretch your limbs of blood-filed steel, The Dawi-Zharr march fourth once more! Answering the summons of Hashut!
@ArneSo I don't know if you'd consider it, as it's not strictly a Hobgoblin thing, but I recall that in the Skarsnik book he spent time with Badlands goblins that used ballista mounted on wolf-drawn carts. Something similar to Empire War Wagons; might be fitting.
You are right, I also read something about that. Would definitely be a super cool unit and fit perfectly for the very aggressive playstyle. Great idea!
The question for this sort of thing is always the same: Would you buy it if it was made? I bet very few of us would answer no to that. I would pay at the earliest opportunity for it.
But do you think the people who don't visit the forums would pay for it? Sadly, i'm not sure if it has a large enough appeal that people would rush to buy it at full price.
When the trailer would hit: - People will see Greenskins on Wolves - People will hear Throat singing - People would see a Dread Maw breaking through the Ground like the Krayt Dragon in Mandalorian.
Trust me, they will pay. They will definitely pay. Steppe Nomads and Mongolians as well as Goblins are super popular.
Brainstorming a Hobgoblin Khanate trailer is pretty interesting. I reckon the chew toy faction would either be the Ogre Kingdoms or Kislev.
If they came after Cathay (so not as a pre-order) they would be the best punching bag lore-wise.
Nagash will rule again!Justice for Araby, Albion, Amazons, Halflings, Nippon, Ind, Khuresh & the Hobgoblin Khanate!
The question for this sort of thing is always the same: Would you buy it if it was made? I bet very few of us would answer no to that. I would pay at the earliest opportunity for it.
But do you think the people who don't visit the forums would pay for it? Sadly, i'm not sure if it has a large enough appeal that people would rush to buy it at full price.
When the trailer would hit: - People will see Greenskins on Wolves - People will hear Throat singing - People would see a Dread Maw breaking through the Ground like the Krayt Dragon in Mandalorian.
Trust me, they will pay. They will definitely pay. Steppe Nomads and Mongolians as well as Goblins are super popular.
Brainstorming a Hobgoblin Khanate trailer is pretty interesting. I reckon the chew toy faction would either be the Ogre Kingdoms or Kislev.
Or attacking some kind of caravan
A Dogs of War guarded Caravan.
1234 I declare a thumb war! 5678 I use this hand to mass-debate!
I remember reading about that. It sounds like there should be two bazuka variants. I feel like we’ll see bazukas in an LP though.
And I never figured out how the swivel guns are supposed to look. As you know, the real life counterpart is basically just a mini-cannon on a swivel. And were always used for defense (ship decks, walls). So I’m not sure how they would work.
Also sounds like a new Waaagh! unit they can add.
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."
Norsca had a bunch of lore-units that people found really really cool:
- Fimir - Skinwolves - Mammoths - Focus on a viking aesthetic
Really really cool, right.
What do the Hobgoblins have?
Scorpion RIders... okay, good concept , but are they famous or anything? No. They are essentially a spider riders variant . Dread Maw.... okay... thats something. Squigadon. Very nice, thats definitely something iconic from warhammer 40k
Any iconic/cool infantry unit or characters? Nope.......
I think that the mongolian empire, hit-and-run, raiding wolf riders theme could do the trick.
The question for this sort of thing is always the same: Would you buy it if it was made? I bet very few of us would answer no to that. I would pay at the earliest opportunity for it.
But do you think the people who don't visit the forums would pay for it? Sadly, i'm not sure if it has a large enough appeal that people would rush to buy it at full price.
When the trailer would hit: - People will see Greenskins on Wolves - People will hear Throat singing - People would see a Dread Maw breaking through the Ground like the Krayt Dragon in Mandalorian.
Trust me, they will pay. They will definitely pay. Steppe Nomads and Mongolians as well as Goblins are super popular.
Brainstorming a Hobgoblin Khanate trailer is pretty interesting. I reckon the chew toy faction would either be the Ogre Kingdoms or Kislev.
If they came after Cathay (so not as a pre-order) they would be the best punching bag lore-wise.
Could also have them killing one of the Game 2 races (It's been a while since we killed some High Elves in a trailer, we could go back to tradition), with some obvious Cathay references on the Hobgoblins themselves (Cathayan artifacts, maybe some Cathayan armours on some of the soldiers).
I'm in favor of Hobgoblins being a faction of the Greenskins.
For once, I think people place too much value on the whole "Goblins hate hobgoblins". To me that just sounded like a throwaway line Games-Workshop said to not expand them into the Greeskin roster - not a substantial aspect of Hobgoblin or Goblin culture. Second, that actually makes them better as a faction. Put some limitations to what units they can recruit, some infighting/hatred rules and you got yourself a fairly interesting faction there to play. I mean, a lot of people are okay with DoC being a single race, even though the gods hate each other as well to a certain extend - and unlike the Greenskins, the daemons are a kind of hive mind - but Hobgoblins shouldn't?
I also think downplaying the wow factor is a big mistake. You know what people would really see with a Hobgoblin trailer? "Wait, is this a lord pack for the Greeskins?", throwing in a single, potentially very hard to implement, unit from Monstrous Arcanum won't change that, specially if a good chunk of the roster ends up being literally copy pasted from Chaos Dwarfs.
I also think we need to pick our battles. There's so many race and lord packs game 3 can have, it would feel a waste, to me at least, to make what is essentially (for gameplay purposes) a Greenskin faction into a separate race, even if it makes slight more sense as a separate race. Same thing for Kurgans btw, just rename Norsca to "Chaos Marauders" or "Marauder Tribes" or whatever, add in Sayl or some other Kurgan and some horse archers to represent them; they are too similar to Norsca to make a fully fledged out race pack. Now, if game 3 gets literally dozens of DLC packs, then I absolutely agree, but how likely is that?
I'm in favor of Hobgoblins being a faction of the Greenskins.
For once, I think people place too much value on the whole "Goblins hate hobgoblins". To me that just sounded like a throwaway line Games-Workshop said to not expand them into the Greeskin roster - not a substantial aspect of Hobgoblin or Goblin culture. Second, that actually makes them better as a faction. Put some limitations to what units they can recruit, some infighting/hatred rules and you got yourself a fairly interesting faction there to play. I mean, a lot of people are okay with DoC being a single race, even though the gods hate each other as well to a certain extend - and unlike the Greenskins, the daemons are a kind of hive mind - but Hobgoblins shouldn't?
I also think downplaying the wow factor is a big mistake. You know what people would really see with a Hobgoblin trailer? "Wait, is this a lord pack for the Greeskins?", throwing in a single, potentially very hard to implement, unit from Monstrous Arcanum won't change that, specially if a good chunk of the roster ends up being literally copy pasted from Chaos Dwarfs.
I also think we need to pick our battles. There's so many race and lord packs game 3 can have, it would feel a waste, to me at least, to make what is essentially (for gameplay purposes) a Greenskin faction into a separate race, even if it makes slight more sense as a separate race. Same thing for Kurgans btw, just rename Norsca to "Chaos Marauders" or "Marauder Tribes" or whatever, add in Sayl or some other Kurgan and some horse archers to represent them; they are too similar to Norsca to make a fully fledged out race pack. Now, if game 3 gets literally dozens of DLC packs, then I absolutely agree, but how likely is that?
I wouldn't really call it a throwaway line- Hobgoblins betrayed their entire race for the Chaos Dwarfs and do their best to keep them enslaved- the Greenskins would not work with them, like they would not work with the Chaos dwarfs themselves.
Nagash will rule again!Justice for Araby, Albion, Amazons, Halflings, Nippon, Ind, Khuresh & the Hobgoblin Khanate!
I wouldn't really call it a throwaway line- Hobgoblins betrayed their entire race for the Chaos Dwarfs and do their best to keep them enslaved- the Greenskins would not work with them, like they would not work with the Chaos dwarfs themselves.
Not exactly true, as I have stated many times before, the Chaos Dwarfs will trade with anybody, they will also hire on anybody who is willing to fight alongside the Dawi Zharr, and yes this includes Greenskins, even Black Orcs, hell the oh so beloved Man O' War revival, Dread Fleet which gave us the 20,000 leagues under the sea Chaos Dwarf maniacal Kraken, was not even the invention of a Chaos Dwarf! it was actually invented by a Western Dawi within a Karak Hold, said Dawi was touched by the grasp of Chaos, granted, however when he fled after trying to murder his teacher, he went to the Chaos Dwarfs! You know, the one place any Western Dawi should never want to go to, but he was welcomed with open arms so long as he would dump the Ancestor gods for Hashut(as well as sharing his creation with his new Fire Dwarf brothers).
>Ironback Boar: This is a magic item available to Orc characters in Orcs and Goblins. It was created by Chaos Dwarfs and traded with Orcs in exchange for goods and services. The additional benefits over a regular boar are that it causes impact hits and its attacks are magical.
-7th edition Orcs and Goblins army book
There are other items, I recall one story of how some Orc got jelly over Grimgor Ironhide's axe, Gitsnik, so after finding out it was made by the Dawi of the Dark Lands, he rushed his way there to get one too, rather he did or not I don't remember, but so long as he was willing to sell hundreds if not thousands of his fellow Greenskins, he would not only not be enslaved himself, but walk out of Zharr-Nagrond with his much newer and much shinier axe then Grimgor had.
Its worth mentioning that, the vast bulk of Chaos Dwarf slaves are Gobbo's, be they Gnoblars, Goblins(any type, Forest/Night/Hill/etc, and yes Hobgoblins) as well as snotlings, the reason for this is simple, Goblins are found Everywhere, and are the easiest thing to enslave, if they were not, then the Orcs/Chaos Dwarfs/Ogres/Hobgoblins/Skaven etc would not be enslaving them in their thousands. Its because of this that, while rare yes, you would be surprised at the amount of factions in the setting with at least a few members of their faction/race who are indebted to the Chaos Dwarfs, such as who you ask, well ever hear of a bald Vampire named Mannfred von Carstein? his magical sword Timor Noctis was forged in the hell-fires of Zharr Naggrund. Hell, the Ogre Race is surprisingly in bed with the Dawi Zharr, with a few tribes having closer ties to the Chaos Dwarfs then their own peoples, namely the Ironskin Tribe.
"the Ironskin tribe has thus established strong ties to the citadel of Zharr Naggrund, whom they trade with to obtain their armour and, as rumours have it, the great mechanical beast ridden by their Tyrant, Ghark Ironskin".
"Under the leadership of Ghark Ironskin, have set up expansive trade agreements with the Chaos Dwarfs of Zharr-Naggrund, and thus have access to more Leadbelchers than any other tribe, and Ghark himself rides into battle on top of a huge mechanical rhinox, whom some claim has been possessed by a daemon."
"But it was the Chaos Dwarfs who are really responsible for Ghark's current infamy. They replaced their ally's Rhinox with a mechanical monstrosity of hissing pistons and rune-etched chains, a daemon-fuelled engine of destruction that obeys Ghark's every command (though he still bashes it over the head now and again, for old time's sake). None can doubt that Ghark Ironskin is amongst the mightiest of Tyrants, riding his unstoppable steed at the head of an iron-clad army of Bulls and Rhinox riders, the ground shaking at their tread."
"The Iron Rhinox - Iron Rhinox is a monstrous mount made by Chaos Dwarfs. It can constantly snort evil-smelling, sulphurous steam from its armoured snout."
As we say in Mingol Zharr-Naggrund, if you got a vice, we got the price.
Hear the summons of Hashut! The Dark Father calls you to slaughter, Blood and fire exhorts you to war! Hear the summons of Hashut! Stretch your limbs of blood-filed steel, The Dawi-Zharr march fourth once more! Answering the summons of Hashut!
On the Kurgan/Norsca debate, I'd point out that we already have a Kurgan tribe (the Aghols) and a Hung tribe (the Mung) being represented by Norsca. Ultimately, I don't think the Kurgan or Hung are different enough from existing Norsca or WoC to be worth anything that would take a big budget. Maybe they could be settled WoC that borrows the War Mammoths, maybe they could use the Norsca list but trade the ice-themed units for proper Chaos Warriors making them a bit of a hybrid, but there isn't really anything left that would be new for them that isn't already in (or likely to be in) the Norsca or WoC list.
I think there's also a degree to which it's worth asking just how many Chaos races do we want? People are already saying they're tired of Elves, and that's just three races with thematic similarities. If we were to look at adding DoC Undivided and Monogods and separate races for each Marauder tribe... I think the people who aren't Chaos superfans would start getting tired of it pretty quickly. Hobgoblin Khanate would, at worst, be the fourth bite at the greenskin cherry, and that's counting Gnoblars and whatever the Chaos Dwarfs have.
@Sultschiem Giant Scorpion Riders would be something comparable to the TK Scorpion bit as a monstrous cavalry and a real animal not a construct.
They are a lore unit like the Great Stag Knights which are super cool.
Their Wolf Riders would be the „iconic“ unit and the focus of their race.
Calling Giant Scorpion Riders a 'lore unit' is a bit of a stretch. Great Stag Knights were something that was actually described as a thing. The intent when GW wrote that particular piece of fluff was probably that Great Stag Knights were actually characters (similar to how the Lords of Oblivion are described as a unit, while in practice a Lord of Oblivion was probably a Dreadlord riding a Black Dragon), but there is actually direct fluff that the Wood Elves had knights that rode Great Stags.
Giant Scorpions... the only link I've seen is that Giant Scorpions are found in a region that's frequented by Hobgoblins.
An observation which, incidentally, also applies to the Dread Maw. There's nothing to indicate that they're tameable at all without magic, let alone by hobgoblins.
And while on the topic... like @Maelas said, there's a big difference between an army book unit that GW didn't get around to making an official model for, and something that showed up in one battle setpiece fighting for an army that wasn't Hobgoblins using "counts as" rules.
That said, I think hobgoblins using some rocket weapons traded with the Chaos Dwarfs or stolen from Cathay is something that is backed up in fluff somewhere, even if it's Oldhammer fluff. Similar to what @Sultschiem said, if CA was to develop the hobgoblins, I'd prefer them to do so by sitting down with Games Workshop and discussing the things they'd actually have rather than just shoving in monsters that happened to live in similar areas (and the Dread Maw doesn't even have that! They live in the swamps of the Chaos Wastes!
On the Kurgan/Norsca debate, I'd point out that we already
That said, I think hobgoblins using some rocket weapons traded with the Chaos Dwarfs or stolen from Cathay is something that is backed up in fluff somewhere, even if it's Oldhammer fluff. Similar to what @Sultschiem said, if CA was to develop the hobgoblins, I'd prefer them to do so by sitting down with Games Workshop and discussing the things they'd actually have rather than just shoving in monsters that happened to live in similar areas (and the Dread Maw doesn't even have that! They live in the swamps of the Chaos Wastes!
And Fimir also live in Swamps and not in Norsca, yet they were added and fit very well.
The Dreadmaw is from Mongolian Myths and Hobgoblins are Fantasy Mongolians, so it fits perfectly. How they are tamed is not really relevant if you ask me. But if there has to be an explaination, Shamans could tame them or whatever would be enough.
On the Kurgan/Norsca debate, I'd point out that we already
That said, I think hobgoblins using some rocket weapons traded with the Chaos Dwarfs or stolen from Cathay is something that is backed up in fluff somewhere, even if it's Oldhammer fluff. Similar to what @Sultschiem said, if CA was to develop the hobgoblins, I'd prefer them to do so by sitting down with Games Workshop and discussing the things they'd actually have rather than just shoving in monsters that happened to live in similar areas (and the Dread Maw doesn't even have that! They live in the swamps of the Chaos Wastes!
And Fimir also live in Swamps and not in Norsca, yet they were added and fit very well.
The Dreadmaw is from Mongolian Myths and Hobgoblins are Fantasy Mongolians, so it fits perfectly. How they are tamed is not really relevant if you ask me. But if there has to be an explaination, Shamans could tame them or whatever would be enough.
Fimir live in swamps in general - how do we know they're not found in Norscan swamps? They're usually associated with the sometimes-frozen swamps of the Wastelands near Marienburg, but having some living in Norsca as well isn't that much of a stretch. More importantly, common cause in Chaos is a reason for them to work together. A good argument could be made that they'd be a better fit for Beastmen, but that probably wasn't on the table at the time.
I know that you like to use the Mongolian Death Worm analogy, but it... really doesn't fit. The Mongolian Death Worm is essentially an eastern basilisk - it is normally (NORMALLY!) described as being relatively small (the original report says two feet long), but represents a danger beyond its size due to extreme toxicity and other extraordinary abilities such as being able to discharge electricity. The Dread Maw only has the vaguest of resemblances to the olgoi-khorkhoi.
More importantly, it's habitat is explicitly described as being in a different region. It's also at least strongly implied to be Chaos-tainted, and despite their alliance to the Dawi-Zharr, the Hobgoblin Khanate are not a Chaos faction.
Generally speaking, too, I despise the idea of shoving something into a race, without caring about how the race in question might have tamed it, just because they're in physical proximity. There are trolls in Ulthuan (source: 6th edition High Elf book), should the High Elves have trolls. Of course not. Back in the 5E Bretonnian book, long before the 7E Beastmen book, there was mention of the Jabberwock - should the Jabberslythe actually then be a Bretonnian unit?
I could keep making ridiculous examples, but to keep it short, it'd take more than simple proximity to make me think that a monster belongs in a particular list - and the Dread Maw doesn't even have that.
On the Kurgan/Norsca debate, I'd point out that we already
That said, I think hobgoblins using some rocket weapons traded with the Chaos Dwarfs or stolen from Cathay is something that is backed up in fluff somewhere, even if it's Oldhammer fluff. Similar to what @Sultschiem said, if CA was to develop the hobgoblins, I'd prefer them to do so by sitting down with Games Workshop and discussing the things they'd actually have rather than just shoving in monsters that happened to live in similar areas (and the Dread Maw doesn't even have that! They live in the swamps of the Chaos Wastes!
And Fimir also live in Swamps and not in Norsca, yet they were added and fit very well.
The Dreadmaw is from Mongolian Myths and Hobgoblins are Fantasy Mongolians, so it fits perfectly. How they are tamed is not really relevant if you ask me. But if there has to be an explaination, Shamans could tame them or whatever would be enough.
Fimir live in swamps in general - how do we know they're not found in Norscan swamps? They're usually associated with the sometimes-frozen swamps of the Wastelands near Marienburg, but having some living in Norsca as well isn't that much of a stretch. More importantly, common cause in Chaos is a reason for them to work together. A good argument could be made that they'd be a better fit for Beastmen, but that probably wasn't on the table at the time.
I know that you like to use the Mongolian Death Worm analogy, but it... really doesn't fit. The Mongolian Death Worm is essentially an eastern basilisk - it is normally (NORMALLY!) described as being relatively small (the original report says two feet long), but represents a danger beyond its size due to extreme toxicity and other extraordinary abilities such as being able to discharge electricity. The Dread Maw only has the vaguest of resemblances to the olgoi-khorkhoi.
More importantly, it's habitat is explicitly described as being in a different region. It's also at least strongly implied to be Chaos-tainted, and despite their alliance to the Dawi-Zharr, the Hobgoblin Khanate are not a Chaos faction.
Generally speaking, too, I despise the idea of shoving something into a race, without caring about how the race in question might have tamed it, just because they're in physical proximity. There are trolls in Ulthuan (source: 6th edition High Elf book), should the High Elves have trolls. Of course not. Back in the 5E Bretonnian book, long before the 7E Beastmen book, there was mention of the Jabberwock - should the Jabberslythe actually then be a Bretonnian unit?
I could keep making ridiculous examples, but to keep it short, it'd take more than simple proximity to make me think that a monster belongs in a particular list - and the Dread Maw doesn't even have that.
Exactly. The same can be said for Dreadmaws. The might come from the Wastes but since they border the Eastern Steppes, it isn’t far fetched that some of them moved a bit south. Especially since they are subterranean and don’t care much about borders.... so the same argument as for the Fimir.
Wyvern are also Chaos tainted just like White Lions or Pegasi.
HE are based on Greek mythology with Dragons. So Trolls obviously don’t fit.
But Dreadmaws fit perfectly. They are from Mongolian Mythology which is the culture the Hobgoblins are based on. GS have Chaos tainted Wyverns so Hobos should have Dreadmaws who are basically subterranean wyrms.
Saying that the Maw doesn’t fit Hobgoblins is like saying Hydras don’t fit DE.
Also keep in mind that CA added the Mourngul to the Vampire Coast because it fits. A creature based on people who got mad and died in frozen Lands got added to a race of tropical Pirates.
If Dreadmaws will ever be added, they only make sense to be a hobgoblin unit. Everything else would just be weird. Like adding Hydras to Kislev you know... it just doesn’t fit.
Dreadmaws aren't from Mongolian mythology. They seem more akin to Dune's sandworms, or even closer yet, the jumara of the Blight in Wheel of Time, than the two-foot-long, dangerous-more-because-of-special-qualities-than-size olgoi-khorkhoi. You're trying to draw an analogue where none exists.
Seriously, until AoS, Games Workshop didn't even try to hide their inspirations. If the Dread Maw was supposed to be the Warhammer olgoi-khorkhoi, it'd be called a Death Worm.
As for Chaos influence - there are few creatures in the Warhammer world that are completely free of any Chaotic influence, but there's a distinction between creatures that have been physically altered by Chaos but are still fairly stable in form and independent in mind, and creatures that are full on creatures of Chaos, riven with mutation and dedicated to the Chaos Gods. The description of the Dread Maw makes it pretty clear it's in the latter column. In fact, I'd even consider it to be highly likely to be a creature of Nurgle. I'd consider it much more likely to be included in a Chaos list than any Greenskin list.
Mournguls are Wendigos l. You know...from the mountians or icy tundras or forests typically because that's where the natives who came up with the myth lived. Also their in the old world. Yet they're apart of the V Coast, a sea faring faction in the New World. Suppose you could argue Cannibals can come from anywhere but in the Mournguls bio I don't see it accoiated with pirates. CA will put SEMS wherever they want regardless if it makes logical sense or not. Dreadmaw can go to Hobgoblins, Chaos or Bretonnia for all CA cares.
Mournguls are Wendigos l. You know...from the mountians or icy tundras or forests typically because that's where the natives who came up with the myth lived. Also their in the old world. Yet they're apart of the V Coast, a sea faring faction in the New World. Suppose you could argue Cannibals can come from anywhere but in the Mournguls bio I don't see it accoiated with pirates. CA will put SEMS wherever they want regardless if it makes logical sense or not. Dreadmaw can go to Hobgoblins, Chaos or Bretonnia for all CA cares.
If thats the case calls dibs on shard dragons for Bretonnia
Mournguls are Wendigos l. You know...from the mountians or icy tundras or forests typically because that's where the natives who came up with the myth lived. Also their in the old world. Yet they're apart of the V Coast, a sea faring faction in the New World. Suppose you could argue Cannibals can come from anywhere but in the Mournguls bio I don't see it accoiated with pirates. CA will put SEMS wherever they want regardless if it makes logical sense or not. Dreadmaw can go to Hobgoblins, Chaos or Bretonnia for all CA cares.
If thats the case calls dibs on shard dragons for Bretonnia
TBH I would prefer it be in Bretonnia then the "loreful" race of the Dwarfs. At least Bretonnia doesn't have a dedicated cult to killing monsters nor a personal grudge against dragons.
Dreadmaws aren't from Mongolian mythology. They seem more akin to Dune's sandworms, or even closer yet, the jumara of the Blight in Wheel of Time, than the two-foot-long, dangerous-more-because-of-special-qualities-than-size olgoi-khorkhoi. You're trying to draw an analogue where none exists.
Seriously, until AoS, Games Workshop didn't even try to hide their inspirations. If the Dread Maw was supposed to be the Warhammer olgoi-khorkhoi, it'd be called a Death Worm.
As for Chaos influence - there are few creatures in the Warhammer world that are completely free of any Chaotic influence, but there's a distinction between creatures that have been physically altered by Chaos but are still fairly stable in form and independent in mind, and creatures that are full on creatures of Chaos, riven with mutation and dedicated to the Chaos Gods. The description of the Dread Maw makes it pretty clear it's in the latter column. In fact, I'd even consider it to be highly likely to be a creature of Nurgle. I'd consider it much more likely to be included in a Chaos list than any Greenskin list.
Wrong again. It’s clearly a Mongolian creature.
A Nurgle Unit? This doesn’t make any sense at all.
That's about as closely linked to the actual folklore as the Chamber of Secrets basilisk is to actual basilisks.
Nothing in the official fluff even hints at such a connection, and if you don't see the possible Nurgle connection, I wonder if you've even read it. I don't have the source to hand right now, but the second column talks about the Dreadmaw having physical features and corruptive bodily fluids that would definitely fit among Nurgle (not to mention that it's usually found in Chaos-tainted swampy areas) units. It also references levels of mutation that are normally only found within Chaos lists.
Let's not forget that the Dreadmaw doesn't have the electrical discharge ability attributed to death worms, and if it had been intended to be an overgrown death worm (again, the folklore has them as being fairly small, regardless of whether a movie producer or whatever tried to turn them into sandworms) I doubt that GW would have missed the opportunity to put that option in.
Even if, hypothetically, they are present in the same areas, hobgoblins are likely to treat dreadmaws like Mongolian folklore treats deathworms - better avoided or killed. Living in a similar area does not guarantee any special ability to tame them. And if we were to take the "it's in the folklore of the cultural analogue", I'd point out that the Hung are also Mongolian-inspired.
And we haven't even raised the question of whether the engine could even handle a burrower.
I'm in favor of Hobgoblins being a faction of the Greenskins.
For once, I think people place too much value on the whole "Goblins hate hobgoblins". To me that just sounded like a throwaway line Games-Workshop said to not expand them into the Greeskin roster - not a substantial aspect of Hobgoblin or Goblin culture. Second, that actually makes them better as a faction. Put some limitations to what units they can recruit, some infighting/hatred rules and you got yourself a fairly interesting faction there to play. I mean, a lot of people are okay with DoC being a single race, even though the gods hate each other as well to a certain extend - and unlike the Greenskins, the daemons are a kind of hive mind - but Hobgoblins shouldn't?
I also think downplaying the wow factor is a big mistake. You know what people would really see with a Hobgoblin trailer? "Wait, is this a lord pack for the Greeskins?", throwing in a single, potentially very hard to implement, unit from Monstrous Arcanum won't change that, specially if a good chunk of the roster ends up being literally copy pasted from Chaos Dwarfs.
I also think we need to pick our battles. There's so many race and lord packs game 3 can have, it would feel a waste, to me at least, to make what is essentially (for gameplay purposes) a Greenskin faction into a separate race, even if it makes slight more sense as a separate race. Same thing for Kurgans btw, just rename Norsca to "Chaos Marauders" or "Marauder Tribes" or whatever, add in Sayl or some other Kurgan and some horse archers to represent them; they are too similar to Norsca to make a fully fledged out race pack. Now, if game 3 gets literally dozens of DLC packs, then I absolutely agree, but how likely is that?
I wouldn't really call it a throwaway line- Hobgoblins betrayed their entire race for the Chaos Dwarfs and do their best to keep them enslaved- the Greenskins would not work with them, like they would not work with the Chaos dwarfs themselves.
Fair enough, should've jumped into the wikia page rather than trusting what I read some time ago (about them being too backstabby). But I still think that this aspect can be easily represented. Give them very negative diplomatic relationships with the other non-Hobgoblin Greenskins factions, and remove their ability to recruit the other Greenskin heroes and lords; the rest should be fair game. I doubt a basic gobbo there really cares about something that happens so long ago by other Hobgoblins, at least more so that he wouldn't begrudgingly join a Hobgoblin faction that prove themselves the strongest and meanest. You could even use enslavement or gobbos/orcs only joining them because they want to backstab and kill them eventually to take their place (hence the infighting/hatred rules); wouldn't that work?
It's a sandbox game after all, *some* leeway seems fair and IMO better than doing Greenskins 2.0 Now With Just Slightly-More-Eastern-Looking Gobbos (that is, like I mentioned before, unless we can dozens of DLC packs for game 3, in that case, give me Greenskins 2.0 Now With Just Slightly-More-Eastern-Looking Gobbos! - with hopefully some extra stuff as well).
That's about as closely linked to the actual folklore as the Chamber of Secrets basilisk is to actual basilisks.
Nothing in the official fluff even hints at such a connection, and if you don't see the possible Nurgle connection, I wonder if you've even read it. I don't have the source to hand right now, but the second column talks about the Dreadmaw having physical features and corruptive bodily fluids that would definitely fit among Nurgle (not to mention that it's usually found in Chaos-tainted swampy areas) units. It also references levels of mutation that are normally only found within Chaos lists.
Let's not forget that the Dreadmaw doesn't have the electrical discharge ability attributed to death worms, and if it had been intended to be an overgrown death worm (again, the folklore has them as being fairly small, regardless of whether a movie producer or whatever tried to turn them into sandworms) I doubt that GW would have missed the opportunity to put that option in.
Even if, hypothetically, they are present in the same areas, hobgoblins are likely to treat dreadmaws like Mongolian folklore treats deathworms - better avoided or killed. Living in a similar area does not guarantee any special ability to tame them. And if we were to take the "it's in the folklore of the cultural analogue", I'd point out that the Hung are also Mongolian-inspired.
And we haven't even raised the question of whether the engine could even handle a burrower.
To be fair, the Dread Maw obviously isn't inspired by the MDW, but neither are any of the other numerous sand worms that are ubiquitous in fantasy. The Shai-Hulud seem to be the originator of the trope, and pop culture has latched onto the idea since then, this includes a post hoc attachment to the olghoi khorkoi cryptid, which is why portrayals of it tend to be far more similar to fantasy then the actual folklore. Once that sort of connection is made, it'll stick regardless of how false it is, this is exactly how we got horned Viking helmets, lightsaber katanas and superhuman Spartans into the public conciousness and why they're never going away. As far as Warhammer fantasy is concerned, it appeals to the 'badass' pop culture take on things, not necessarily the actual folklore where they originate from. Such is true for the Dread Maw.
In respects for where they come from, while the Monstrous Arcanum mentions them as inhabiting the mires of the Chaos Wastes, it also states quite clearly that they range as far south as the Ivory Road.
"Every caravan master transversing the Ivory Road to far Cathay fears the shaking of the earth that proceeds a Dread Maw attack, for even the most expensive guards and bribed Ogres are useless against their burrowing assaults on horse and heavily-laden wagons" —Francisco de Pazzi, Tilean Merchant Prince.
The Ivory Road stars in the southern Darklands, and goes through Greasus Goldtooth's kingdom then the Ancient Giant lands before skirting around the Warpstone Desert and finally reaching Cathay. That's extremely far to the south from the Chaos Wastes, and if Dread Maws can range that far, then they absolutely range into the Great Steppes which are directly south of the Chaos Wastes.
As for them being described as wracked with mutation, well I'm sure that's absolutely the case for the animals that actually dwell under the umbra of Chaos, but all the art we have of them as well as the official model, shows an animal that looks perfectly healthy and mutation free. There's a pretty significant gulf between the description and depiction of the creatures in the Monstrous Arcanum. We can assume the simple answer that one is right and the other wrong, handwaving it all away, we could also assume that the Dread Maws pictured are just not mutated though, perhaps ones that dwell to the south and free from that corruptive influence. Both are valid interpretations. If the Dread Maw looks like it's model, then I don't see it clashing with a greenskin aesthetic at all.
As for the relationship between hobgoblins and dread maws, the logical thing is to avoid them at all cost, but these are Greenskins we're talking about here. Sure hobgobbos are smarter then other greenskins and less wacky, but greenskins gonna greenskin. What's the difference between a hobgoblin shaman attempting to bind a Dread Maw to the tribes power and an orc or goblin shaman attempting to bind Wyverns to their power? Both sound suicidal but both are possible in universe, Dread Maws can be bound to casters through binding scrolls, and hobgoblin shamans are potent enough to bind "wind daemons" to their own magical artefacts, such as the case with Ghazak Khan's helmet.
Basically the point here is that Dread Maws don't really have a home on the TT. Sure they could be added to the Warriors of Chaos but they're already missing the Chimera, Slaughterbrute, Mutalith Vortex Beast, Cockatrice, Basilisk, Gigantic Chaos Spawn and Giant Spined Chaos Beast to name them all. The Dread Maw is pretty much dead last in regards to aesthetics and theming, without the description in the MA we wouldn't even know that they had any relationship with Chaos, and in truth they still don't they're just a wild animal that roams the area and is victim to mutation for it. So with that in mind, is it such a travesty that they are used to enrich another possible race that's lacking in options, especially if the chances of the Dread Maw ever getting in beforehand are next to zero?
Burrowing is an issue I can understand, it's also one that I think CA could pull off if they tried hard, they've already got a good start with the Tomb Scorpions animation. Personally I think the way to go would be how BfME2 handled the summoned Wyrms in game, with animations similar to the Carthus Sandworm of Dark Souls 3. Have their idle and attack animations be their heads poking out of the earth, perhaps emerging entirely before plunging back in and emerging once again, and in movement they would be immune to attack but leave a distinctive 'wormtrail' like graboids or Bug Bunny do. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qWco-41R8Y&ab_channel=AdamBarker https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2d1sHC7B9pg&ab_channel=MaginhartVODS
Comments
- Throat singing music playing.
- Camera Ride over the endless steppes.
- 2 Cavalry armies charging into each other.
- Mongolian styled Wolf Riders fighting Winged Lancers.
- Hobgobla Khan laughing mad and acts like Gengis Khan.
- A Golden Horde pun.
- More fighting.
- Then a Dreadmaw breaks through the ground and snacks a Bear like a Banta on Tatooine.
- Another Golden Horde pun.
The end
- Report
6 · Disagree Agree#givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc
- Report
0 · Disagree Agree- Report
2 · Disagree Agree- Report
4 · Disagree Agree- Report
3 · Disagree AgreeAbove mentions the bazuka and even the swivel gun. I'm trying to find the part about the Magma/Lava Trolls I mentioned, but its hard to do while taking care of a teething 10 month old child at 4 in the morning :P.
Found it, seems its not the Temple of Hashut, but I remember reading somewhere that the Magma/Lava Trolls were drawn to the area, if I find it ill post it, but for now this is good enough.
Lastly to the Thread, please no stealing of Gorduz Backstabber, honestly I meant to do a write up about how the Hobgoblins are needed, not just a fun add one but needed for the Chaos Dwarf Army. I would like to see the Hobgoblins have a two tree option, 1) They focus on the Backstabby ways, and make for excellent assassins and DPS Heroes, and 2) They focus on the enslaving and corralling of slaves, how I want this to play is they give buffs to Greenskins Slaves, and make them less likely to run, so long as said Hobgoblin Khan does not flee himself, to still show the animosity between the Greenskins and the Hobgoblins, I want to see it where if the Hobgoblin Khan is of low level, he can only keep say 3 Greenskin Slave Troops in line, any more then this and the morale of all Greenskin slaves are very low, the only troops the Hobgoblins probably won't be able to buff would be the Black Orcs.
Lastly, I have been working on a idea, what if, for the Chaos Dwarf's Hobgoblin Khan(Hero) they can, at level 20, chose a new skill, this skill would allow said Hobgoblin Khan to actually work as another Lord, leading armies, but the army must be all Slave Troops, and the amount of Slaves he can successfully lead is based on this skill being upgraded at every 5 levels. Basically this would more or less be akin to the Greenskins WAAAGH! but one you have complete control over, back draw is simple, its a skill heavy line meaning the Hobgoblin would be awful at any other task, it would take all he had and then some to not get ripped to pieces by his Slave Troops, and the only war machine he would have access to would be of Hobgoblin make(Hobgoblin Bolt Throwers, Hobgoblin Rock Thrower).
The way I imagine it is like this-
level 20= 5 Slave Troops
25= 10
30= 15
35= 20
40= choice of either 2 Black Orcs, or 2 units of Chaos Dwarf Hunting Party(imagine the Great White Hunters of Africa, basically these Dawi Zharr are on a hunting/slaving expedition, so they see the Hobgoblin Khan more as a Savage Scout then a leader, this unit should consist of Regular Dawi Zharr carrying the Hailshot Blunderbuss)
Please not its a rough draft, and I don't mean for it to be overpowered, to make it work and not be broken I would imagine these troops would have a higher tax upkeep, and again unless the Hobgoblin Khan was specked to be a pure Slave Master(Meaning his own fighting/assassination skills would be near non-existent) then the troops would suffer from massive morale penalties, not to mention said Hobgoblin may just say "Zod Dis!" and take his troops with him as he rebels to forge his own Khanate.
The Dark Father calls you to slaughter,
Blood and fire exhorts you to war!
Hear the summons of Hashut!
Stretch your limbs of blood-filed steel,
The Dawi-Zharr march fourth once more!
Answering the summons of Hashut!
-From the K'daai rituals of awakening.
- Report
0 · Disagree Agree- Report
0 · Disagree Agree- Report
0 · Disagree Agree- Report
0 · Disagree AgreeSub faction that only have part of the CD roster (all the Hobgoblins).
Tho I wish rather decide afterwards to make them a dlc race.
On big centerpiece units, how about giant chariots ? Something pulled by dozens of giants wolfs and with dozens of archers on it.
- Report
1 · Disagree AgreeI remember reading about that. It sounds like there should be two bazuka variants. I feel like we’ll see bazukas in an LP though.
And I never figured out how the swivel guns are supposed to look. As you know, the real life counterpart is basically just a mini-cannon on a swivel. And were always used for defense (ship decks, walls). So I’m not sure how they would work.
Also sounds like a new Waaagh! unit they can add.
- Report
0 · Disagree Agree- Report
3 · Disagree AgreeThorek Ironbrow, Alrik Ranulfsson, Grimm Burloksson, Kazador Thunderhorn, Byrrnoth Grundadrakk, Malakai Makaisson,Gotrek Gurnisson, Garagrim, Dragon slayer, Deamon slayer, Doomseekers, Brotherhood of Grimnir,Giant slayers, Thunderbarge, Shieldbearer mount, Master brewer, Goblin Hewer, Norse dwarf war mammoth, Tractator engine, Rune golem, Shard dragon,proper Anvil of Doom, Ulther's dragon company, Lond Drong's slayer pirates, Everguard, Karak Varn,Karag Agrilwutraz,Karaz Bryn, Karag Dum,Karak Vlag, Kraka Dorden, Kraka Ornsmotek, Kraka Ravnsvake, Karak Vrag, Karak Azorn, Karak Krakaten.All those missing things are grudges in the great book, is in your hand to settle them, CA. Khazukan kazakit-ha!
IT'S HOBGOBBO TIME!!!!!!!
#JusticeForKurgan
- Report
0 · Disagree Agree- Report
1 · Disagree AgreeFor once, I think people place too much value on the whole "Goblins hate hobgoblins". To me that just sounded like a throwaway line Games-Workshop said to not expand them into the Greeskin roster - not a substantial aspect of Hobgoblin or Goblin culture. Second, that actually makes them better as a faction. Put some limitations to what units they can recruit, some infighting/hatred rules and you got yourself a fairly interesting faction there to play. I mean, a lot of people are okay with DoC being a single race, even though the gods hate each other as well to a certain extend - and unlike the Greenskins, the daemons are a kind of hive mind - but Hobgoblins shouldn't?
I also think downplaying the wow factor is a big mistake. You know what people would really see with a Hobgoblin trailer? "Wait, is this a lord pack for the Greeskins?", throwing in a single, potentially very hard to implement, unit from Monstrous Arcanum won't change that, specially if a good chunk of the roster ends up being literally copy pasted from Chaos Dwarfs.
I also think we need to pick our battles. There's so many race and lord packs game 3 can have, it would feel a waste, to me at least, to make what is essentially (for gameplay purposes) a Greenskin faction into a separate race, even if it makes slight more sense as a separate race. Same thing for Kurgans btw, just rename Norsca to "Chaos Marauders" or "Marauder Tribes" or whatever, add in Sayl or some other Kurgan and some horse archers to represent them; they are too similar to Norsca to make a fully fledged out race pack. Now, if game 3 gets literally dozens of DLC packs, then I absolutely agree, but how likely is that?
- Report
0 · Disagree Agree- Report
1 · Disagree Agree>Ironback Boar:
This is a magic item available to Orc characters in Orcs and Goblins. It was created by Chaos Dwarfs and traded with Orcs in exchange for goods and services. The additional benefits over a regular boar are that it causes impact hits and its attacks are magical.
-7th edition Orcs and Goblins army book
There are other items, I recall one story of how some Orc got jelly over Grimgor Ironhide's axe, Gitsnik, so after finding out it was made by the Dawi of the Dark Lands, he rushed his way there to get one too, rather he did or not I don't remember, but so long as he was willing to sell hundreds if not thousands of his fellow Greenskins, he would not only not be enslaved himself, but walk out of Zharr-Nagrond with his much newer and much shinier axe then Grimgor had.
Its worth mentioning that, the vast bulk of Chaos Dwarf slaves are Gobbo's, be they Gnoblars, Goblins(any type, Forest/Night/Hill/etc, and yes Hobgoblins) as well as snotlings, the reason for this is simple, Goblins are found Everywhere, and are the easiest thing to enslave, if they were not, then the Orcs/Chaos Dwarfs/Ogres/Hobgoblins/Skaven etc would not be enslaving them in their thousands. Its because of this that, while rare yes, you would be surprised at the amount of factions in the setting with at least a few members of their faction/race who are indebted to the Chaos Dwarfs, such as who you ask, well ever hear of a bald Vampire named Mannfred von Carstein? his magical sword Timor Noctis was forged in the hell-fires of Zharr Naggrund. Hell, the Ogre Race is surprisingly in bed with the Dawi Zharr, with a few tribes having closer ties to the Chaos Dwarfs then their own peoples, namely the Ironskin Tribe.
"Under the leadership of Ghark Ironskin, have set up expansive trade agreements with the Chaos Dwarfs of Zharr-Naggrund, and thus have access to more Leadbelchers than any other tribe, and Ghark himself rides into battle on top of a huge mechanical rhinox, whom some claim has been possessed by a daemon."
"But it was the Chaos Dwarfs who are really responsible for Ghark's current infamy. They replaced their ally's Rhinox with a mechanical monstrosity of hissing pistons and rune-etched chains, a daemon-fuelled engine of destruction that obeys Ghark's every command (though he still bashes it over the head now and again, for old time's sake). None can doubt that Ghark Ironskin is amongst the mightiest of Tyrants, riding his unstoppable steed at the head of an iron-clad army of Bulls and Rhinox riders, the ground shaking at their tread."
"The Iron Rhinox - Iron Rhinox is a monstrous mount made by Chaos Dwarfs. It can constantly snort evil-smelling, sulphurous steam from its armoured snout."
-Ogre Kingdoms (6th Edition), White Dwarf 309
https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/warhammerfb/images/9/95/Ghark_Ironskin.png/revision/latest?cb=20190102164933
As we say in Mingol Zharr-Naggrund, if you got a vice, we got the price.
The Dark Father calls you to slaughter,
Blood and fire exhorts you to war!
Hear the summons of Hashut!
Stretch your limbs of blood-filed steel,
The Dawi-Zharr march fourth once more!
Answering the summons of Hashut!
-From the K'daai rituals of awakening.
- Report
2 · Disagree AgreeI think there's also a degree to which it's worth asking just how many Chaos races do we want? People are already saying they're tired of Elves, and that's just three races with thematic similarities. If we were to look at adding DoC Undivided and Monogods and separate races for each Marauder tribe... I think the people who aren't Chaos superfans would start getting tired of it pretty quickly. Hobgoblin Khanate would, at worst, be the fourth bite at the greenskin cherry, and that's counting Gnoblars and whatever the Chaos Dwarfs have. Calling Giant Scorpion Riders a 'lore unit' is a bit of a stretch. Great Stag Knights were something that was actually described as a thing. The intent when GW wrote that particular piece of fluff was probably that Great Stag Knights were actually characters (similar to how the Lords of Oblivion are described as a unit, while in practice a Lord of Oblivion was probably a Dreadlord riding a Black Dragon), but there is actually direct fluff that the Wood Elves had knights that rode Great Stags.
Giant Scorpions... the only link I've seen is that Giant Scorpions are found in a region that's frequented by Hobgoblins.
An observation which, incidentally, also applies to the Dread Maw. There's nothing to indicate that they're tameable at all without magic, let alone by hobgoblins.
And while on the topic... like @Maelas said, there's a big difference between an army book unit that GW didn't get around to making an official model for, and something that showed up in one battle setpiece fighting for an army that wasn't Hobgoblins using "counts as" rules.
That said, I think hobgoblins using some rocket weapons traded with the Chaos Dwarfs or stolen from Cathay is something that is backed up in fluff somewhere, even if it's Oldhammer fluff. Similar to what @Sultschiem said, if CA was to develop the hobgoblins, I'd prefer them to do so by sitting down with Games Workshop and discussing the things they'd actually have rather than just shoving in monsters that happened to live in similar areas (and the Dread Maw doesn't even have that! They live in the swamps of the Chaos Wastes!
- Report
0 · Disagree AgreeThe Dreadmaw is from Mongolian Myths and Hobgoblins are Fantasy Mongolians, so it fits perfectly. How they are tamed is not really relevant if you ask me. But if there has to be an explaination, Shamans could tame them or whatever would be enough.
- Report
1 · Disagree AgreeI know that you like to use the Mongolian Death Worm analogy, but it... really doesn't fit. The Mongolian Death Worm is essentially an eastern basilisk - it is normally (NORMALLY!) described as being relatively small (the original report says two feet long), but represents a danger beyond its size due to extreme toxicity and other extraordinary abilities such as being able to discharge electricity. The Dread Maw only has the vaguest of resemblances to the olgoi-khorkhoi.
More importantly, it's habitat is explicitly described as being in a different region. It's also at least strongly implied to be Chaos-tainted, and despite their alliance to the Dawi-Zharr, the Hobgoblin Khanate are not a Chaos faction.
Generally speaking, too, I despise the idea of shoving something into a race, without caring about how the race in question might have tamed it, just because they're in physical proximity. There are trolls in Ulthuan (source: 6th edition High Elf book), should the High Elves have trolls. Of course not. Back in the 5E Bretonnian book, long before the 7E Beastmen book, there was mention of the Jabberwock - should the Jabberslythe actually then be a Bretonnian unit?
I could keep making ridiculous examples, but to keep it short, it'd take more than simple proximity to make me think that a monster belongs in a particular list - and the Dread Maw doesn't even have that.
- Report
0 · Disagree AgreeWyvern are also Chaos tainted just like White Lions or Pegasi.
HE are based on Greek mythology with Dragons. So Trolls obviously don’t fit.
But Dreadmaws fit perfectly. They are from Mongolian Mythology which is the culture the Hobgoblins are based on. GS have Chaos tainted Wyverns so Hobos should have Dreadmaws who are basically subterranean wyrms.
Saying that the Maw doesn’t fit Hobgoblins is like saying Hydras don’t fit DE.
Also keep in mind that CA added the Mourngul to the Vampire Coast because it fits. A creature based on people who got mad and died in frozen Lands got added to a race of tropical Pirates.
If Dreadmaws will ever be added, they only make sense to be a hobgoblin unit. Everything else would just be weird.
Like adding Hydras to Kislev you know... it just doesn’t fit.
- Report
1 · Disagree AgreeSeriously, until AoS, Games Workshop didn't even try to hide their inspirations. If the Dread Maw was supposed to be the Warhammer olgoi-khorkhoi, it'd be called a Death Worm.
As for Chaos influence - there are few creatures in the Warhammer world that are completely free of any Chaotic influence, but there's a distinction between creatures that have been physically altered by Chaos but are still fairly stable in form and independent in mind, and creatures that are full on creatures of Chaos, riven with mutation and dedicated to the Chaos Gods. The description of the Dread Maw makes it pretty clear it's in the latter column. In fact, I'd even consider it to be highly likely to be a creature of Nurgle. I'd consider it much more likely to be included in a Chaos list than any Greenskin list.
- Report
0 · Disagree Agree- Report
1 · Disagree Agree#givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc
- Report
0 · Disagree Agree- Report
1 · Disagree AgreeA Nurgle Unit? This doesn’t make any sense at all.
- Report
0 · Disagree AgreeNothing in the official fluff even hints at such a connection, and if you don't see the possible Nurgle connection, I wonder if you've even read it. I don't have the source to hand right now, but the second column talks about the Dreadmaw having physical features and corruptive bodily fluids that would definitely fit among Nurgle (not to mention that it's usually found in Chaos-tainted swampy areas) units. It also references levels of mutation that are normally only found within Chaos lists.
Let's not forget that the Dreadmaw doesn't have the electrical discharge ability attributed to death worms, and if it had been intended to be an overgrown death worm (again, the folklore has them as being fairly small, regardless of whether a movie producer or whatever tried to turn them into sandworms) I doubt that GW would have missed the opportunity to put that option in.
Even if, hypothetically, they are present in the same areas, hobgoblins are likely to treat dreadmaws like Mongolian folklore treats deathworms - better avoided or killed. Living in a similar area does not guarantee any special ability to tame them. And if we were to take the "it's in the folklore of the cultural analogue", I'd point out that the Hung are also Mongolian-inspired.
And we haven't even raised the question of whether the engine could even handle a burrower.
- Report
0 · Disagree AgreeIt's a sandbox game after all, *some* leeway seems fair and IMO better than doing Greenskins 2.0 Now With Just Slightly-More-Eastern-Looking Gobbos (that is, like I mentioned before, unless we can dozens of DLC packs for game 3, in that case, give me Greenskins 2.0 Now With Just Slightly-More-Eastern-Looking Gobbos! - with hopefully some extra stuff as well).
- Report
0 · Disagree AgreeIn respects for where they come from, while the Monstrous Arcanum mentions them as inhabiting the mires of the Chaos Wastes, it also states quite clearly that they range as far south as the Ivory Road.
"Every caravan master transversing the Ivory Road to far Cathay fears the shaking of the earth that proceeds a Dread Maw attack, for even the most expensive guards and bribed Ogres are useless against their burrowing assaults on horse and heavily-laden wagons"
—Francisco de Pazzi, Tilean Merchant Prince.
The Ivory Road stars in the southern Darklands, and goes through Greasus Goldtooth's kingdom then the Ancient Giant lands before skirting around the Warpstone Desert and finally reaching Cathay. That's extremely far to the south from the Chaos Wastes, and if Dread Maws can range that far, then they absolutely range into the Great Steppes which are directly south of the Chaos Wastes.
As for them being described as wracked with mutation, well I'm sure that's absolutely the case for the animals that actually dwell under the umbra of Chaos, but all the art we have of them as well as the official model, shows an animal that looks perfectly healthy and mutation free. There's a pretty significant gulf between the description and depiction of the creatures in the Monstrous Arcanum. We can assume the simple answer that one is right and the other wrong, handwaving it all away, we could also assume that the Dread Maws pictured are just not mutated though, perhaps ones that dwell to the south and free from that corruptive influence. Both are valid interpretations. If the Dread Maw looks like it's model, then I don't see it clashing with a greenskin aesthetic at all.
As for the relationship between hobgoblins and dread maws, the logical thing is to avoid them at all cost, but these are Greenskins we're talking about here. Sure hobgobbos are smarter then other greenskins and less wacky, but greenskins gonna greenskin. What's the difference between a hobgoblin shaman attempting to bind a Dread Maw to the tribes power and an orc or goblin shaman attempting to bind Wyverns to their power? Both sound suicidal but both are possible in universe, Dread Maws can be bound to casters through binding scrolls, and hobgoblin shamans are potent enough to bind "wind daemons" to their own magical artefacts, such as the case with Ghazak Khan's helmet.
Basically the point here is that Dread Maws don't really have a home on the TT. Sure they could be added to the Warriors of Chaos but they're already missing the Chimera, Slaughterbrute, Mutalith Vortex Beast, Cockatrice, Basilisk, Gigantic Chaos Spawn and Giant Spined Chaos Beast to name them all. The Dread Maw is pretty much dead last in regards to aesthetics and theming, without the description in the MA we wouldn't even know that they had any relationship with Chaos, and in truth they still don't they're just a wild animal that roams the area and is victim to mutation for it. So with that in mind, is it such a travesty that they are used to enrich another possible race that's lacking in options, especially if the chances of the Dread Maw ever getting in beforehand are next to zero?
Burrowing is an issue I can understand, it's also one that I think CA could pull off if they tried hard, they've already got a good start with the Tomb Scorpions animation. Personally I think the way to go would be how BfME2 handled the summoned Wyrms in game, with animations similar to the Carthus Sandworm of Dark Souls 3. Have their idle and attack animations be their heads poking out of the earth, perhaps emerging entirely before plunging back in and emerging once again, and in movement they would be immune to attack but leave a distinctive 'wormtrail' like graboids or Bug Bunny do.
- Report
2 · Disagree Agree