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With Cathay CA & GW unshackled a dragons load of possibilities for the future

sykallsykall Junior MemberRegistered Users Posts: 2,935
edited February 2021 in General Discussion
Since Norsca we could see the trend, that CA is willing to expand the Warhammer setting beyond the tabletop by introducing factions that were never hugley present there. It reached its foremost peak with the vampire coast. But with the announcment of Cathay they really let a bomb explode.
Honestly I always assumed that something like this must happen, and I wanted it. One of my most common sentences in this forum was, that I do not want a pure Warhammer experience, but the best Warhammer experience possible.
And this included getting to see things we never saw in any previous Warhammer Fantasy edition/setting/supplement.

But I would have never guessed, that Cathay would be a starting faction for Warhammer 3. But with this decision CA indeed ripped a door wide open and released a flood of possibilites.

We all know that Warhammer 3 is the finale of the trilogy. But what does that mean in the long run? WH2 was supported with DLCs and new additions for three years. I guess we could reasonbily expect WH3 support to be longer then that. In this time I am sure we can expect even more new factions, then just Cathay. Ogres and Chaos Dwarfs will probably the first DLC factions. But what comes after that? Anything could go.
Of course the mode of implementation depends on how WH3 will be structured, especally its main map. But seriously any of the eastern factions, which only existed as footnotes could come.

So for WH3 the following factions could show up sooner or later:
-Ind
-Nippon
-Hobgoblins
-Kurgan/chaos nomads

However it may also be possible, that factions related to WH2 could show up. I do not want to cry Araby all over, but Cathay once tried to conquer the Southlands and Araby at one point...
Of course I do not see Araby or another WH2 minor faction being implemented soon. But I think it is not impossible at this point, that CA may find a way to include these factions, if demand is high enough.

One way I can well imagine, is to release them for WH2. CA did this already, see all the Rome 2 DLC that were released after Attila and Warhammer were announced/released. It would make sense, if WH2 still proofs popular, to both reward long time fans of WH2 and to give further incentives for newcomers to buy older titles, if the immortal empires campaign is not sufficient for some reason.
So honestly I could see factions like Araby, Amazons and Albion making some comback, but probably only in the later stages of WH3.

Other factions like the Southern Realms/Dogs of war sit between the chairs, as they could be released in WH3 or as part of WH2 posteriors support. Though I expect to see them in WH3

Of course all thes things hang up in the air, as we no very little about the coming game and its final scope. But what do you think about all this? What is the faction you are most exicted to potentially see in the Warhammer Trilogy?

In my case I would love to see Ind and the southern reaches explored.
Filling the white spots - 7 made-up factions to enrich the empty parts of the WFB setting
https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/288418/filling-the-white-spots-7-made-up-factions-to-fill-out-the-wfb-setting
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Comments

  • Qwerty55Qwerty55 Registered Users Posts: 728
    Yep, Warhammer Fantasy can finally have it's lore expanded after many years of people calling it stagnant and unchanging.

    Crazy how GW decided to replace the setting before they even realised that it could have been finally expanded.
  • TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001
    Sorry, no.

    It's Chinese money that gave us Cathay and they tested the waters with 3K.

    So unless you can show all the untapped potential of other markets, NOPE.
  • Cadia101Cadia101 Registered Users Posts: 1,400
    I think we should e careful with our hype.
    News races are only possible if they interest GW.
  • takilung31takilung31 Registered Users Posts: 1,386
    I am all for all-new factions, doesn't matter who they are and what

    I would love Nippon and Araby however but Im biased

    araby would be so good for crusades from bretonnia

  • CyresdogCyresdog Registered Users Posts: 1,446
    edited February 2021
    I love CA just as much as anyone else, but please stop saying CA are the ones who creates those factions, besides Cylostra it was all GW who did it.
    They are the ones in charge for what we get and what not. They are the ones who own the Warhammer IP and they have an Iron Grip around it.
    And Cathay, as much as i would love that it wouldn't be true, is a financial decision, the Chinese Market has become the largest market in the entire world. So it was nothing but logical that if they are willing to introduce a new faction, that it would be the chinese equivalent.
    They don't do it because they want to see us happy, they want the chinese to be happy. Thats it. That is the entire reasoning behind it. CCP is #1 in controlling every single market out there for now and the near future.

    You want another new faction? Then go for it and try to establish a new market power.
    Cathay is a nice addition, don't get me wrong, but just from a logical perspective was one of the least ones that should have been added, like dozens upon dozens of other people here said it. Araby, DoW, CD, OK etc all made so much more sense to be added prior to them.

  • Man2008kindMan2008kind Bucharest, RomaniaRegistered Users Posts: 1,856

    Sorry, no.

    It's Chinese money that gave us Cathay and they tested the waters with 3K.

    So unless you can show all the untapped potential of other markets, NOPE.

    Troy was recieved well. Amazons confirmed?
  • TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001
    edited February 2021

    Sorry, no.

    It's Chinese money that gave us Cathay and they tested the waters with 3K.

    So unless you can show all the untapped potential of other markets, NOPE.

    Troy was recieved well. Amazons confirmed?
    Troy and the Amazons DLC were free on their launch day. Pretty hard to gauge a market based on that.

    O yeah, and you have no data regarding where Troy was DL'd most, so you have not shown any untapped markets outside of the people who like stuff for free.
  • ArneSoArneSo Hamburg, Germany Registered Users Posts: 35,090
    Chaos Dwarfs, Ogres and DoW are guaranteed to be the first 3 campaign packs. After that Hobgoblins make the most sense to get some love.

    Nippon seems also guaranteed considering CAs roots and the popularity of the Samurai trope.

    After that, Ind and the Blood Naga seem also possible.

    The future of Warhammer shines bright!
    Nurgle is love, Nurgle is life
  • CyresdogCyresdog Registered Users Posts: 1,446

    Sorry, no.

    It's Chinese money that gave us Cathay and they tested the waters with 3K.

    So unless you can show all the untapped potential of other markets, NOPE.

    Troy was recieved well. Amazons confirmed?
    EGS one of the most hated launchers out there, is purely used because people get free stuff on there. Saying Troy was received well because of playercount is just wrong. It got some praise, but i hardly see anyone playing that game anymore, nor talk about it. It had success because Epic "paid your bill" (you did with your informations). Thats it, if it would be released on steam and you had to pay for it with your own money the game would be at best at around mixed reviews.

  • TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001
    Cyresdog said:

    Sorry, no.

    It's Chinese money that gave us Cathay and they tested the waters with 3K.

    So unless you can show all the untapped potential of other markets, NOPE.

    Troy was recieved well. Amazons confirmed?
    EGS one of the most hated launchers out there, is purely used because people get free stuff on there. Saying Troy was received well because of playercount is just wrong. It got some praise, but i hardly see anyone playing that game anymore, nor talk about it. It had success because Epic "paid your bill" (you did with your informations). Thats it, if it would be released on steam and you had to pay for it with your own money the game would be at best at around mixed reviews.
    I disagree because Troy is genuinely well-made and actually improves upon the TW formula in important ways.
  • DjauDjau Registered Users Posts: 11,719
    Albion stands a great chance now if Cathay gets in.

  • TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001
    Amonkhet said:

    Albion stands a great chance now if Cathay gets in.

    Not really. Fantasy england is already in.
  • DjauDjau Registered Users Posts: 11,719

    Amonkhet said:

    Albion stands a great chance now if Cathay gets in.

    Not really. Fantasy england is already in.
    Fantasy greeks you mean.

  • Man2008kindMan2008kind Bucharest, RomaniaRegistered Users Posts: 1,856
    Am I the only one thinking that the next DLC for TWW2 may be a campaign pack featuring a less known race such as Albion, Amazons and Araby?
  • DjauDjau Registered Users Posts: 11,719
    edited February 2021

    Am I the only one thinking that the next DLC for TWW2 may be a campaign pack featuring a less known race such as Albion, Amazons and Araby?

    Them, or the Legion of Nagash (since AoS models can now be used but not lore) make the most sense, as a 2-LL race pack.

    With Game 3's unique campaign being 'twice as big' as the Vortex, its probable that Norsca and Albion will also make it on the map. Albion could fit nicely there for a good start position far west.

    Amazons could be possible *if* the preorder is playable in Game 2; which wording suggests it might not.

    Araby I think isn't going to be on the map for the unique campaign, so wouldn't make sense since Immortal Empires won't be out at launch.

  • Man2008kindMan2008kind Bucharest, RomaniaRegistered Users Posts: 1,856
    edited February 2021
    Amonkhet said:

    Am I the only one thinking that the next DLC for TWW2 may be a campaign pack featuring a less known race such as Albion, Amazons and Araby?

    Them, or the Legion of Nagash (since AoS models can now be used but not lore) make the most sense, as a 2-LL race pack.
    The Legions of Nagash are better suited for game 3 since I can bet that

    will be part of the map, and Nagashizzar is on that map.
  • DjauDjau Registered Users Posts: 11,719
    The preorder is for Game 3 though.

  • Mr_Finley7Mr_Finley7 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 8,345
    New units for Brettonia!
  • ArneSoArneSo Hamburg, Germany Registered Users Posts: 35,090

    Amonkhet said:

    Am I the only one thinking that the next DLC for TWW2 may be a campaign pack featuring a less known race such as Albion, Amazons and Araby?

    Them, or the Legion of Nagash (since AoS models can now be used but not lore) make the most sense, as a 2-LL race pack.
    The Legions of Nagash are better suited for game 3 since I can bet that

    will be part of the map, and Nagashizzar is on that map.
    The preorder is for WH3.
    Nurgle is love, Nurgle is life
  • Man2008kindMan2008kind Bucharest, RomaniaRegistered Users Posts: 1,856
    edited February 2021
    ArneSo said:

    Amonkhet said:

    Am I the only one thinking that the next DLC for TWW2 may be a campaign pack featuring a less known race such as Albion, Amazons and Araby?

    Them, or the Legion of Nagash (since AoS models can now be used but not lore) make the most sense, as a 2-LL race pack.
    The Legions of Nagash are better suited for game 3 since I can bet that

    will be part of the map, and Nagashizzar is on that map.
    The preorder is for WH3.
    And there are more possibilities for a pre-order than just Nagash, such as the Norse Dwarfs and
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 11,180
    Cyresdog said:


    Cathay is a nice addition, don't get me wrong, but just from a logical perspective was one of the least ones that should have been added, like dozens upon dozens of other people here said it. Araby, DoW, CD, OK etc all made so much more sense to be added prior to them.

    Contrary opinion:

    You're coming at it from a "reproduce what was on the tabletop" viewpoint.

    I'd been advocating Cathay core for a while (although I didn't expect it to come at the expense of OK and CD) for a narrative reason. To the point where I said a few times that I'd be more surprised to see it come as DLC later than for it to come as core, since the narrative benefits of having Cathay are likely to be lost if they're a DLC that comes in on the side of the core narrative.

    CA (and GW?) have gone with a pretty clear theme here. It's Chaos, and the civilisations that border Chaos-held territories. Kislev in the west, on the one direct land route from the Chaos Wastes to the Old World. In the east, Cathay, which has a giant wall to hold off Chaos invasions.

    That's not a theme that the Chaos Dwarfs or the Ogre Kingdoms really fit. Both fight Chaos occasionally, but Chaos has never earmarked either for a major invasion. Conversely, the Chaos Dwarfs trade with Chaos powers, and Ogres are largely apathetic - individual tribes will defend their perceived borders, but there's really no coordinated effort between tribes to defend Ogredom as a whole. In a narrative themed around the final clash of Chaos versus Civilisation, the Chaos Dwarfs and Ogres... well, I wouldn't say that they don't fit per se, but they don't fit in the way that the revealed core races do. Araby is just too far away to matter (should have come in game 2, but that's a separate discussion) and DoW... can basically be viewed similarly to the ogres here. Similarly mercenary, and while they probably have a better understanding of the true threat of Chaos than the ogres, their regions mostly being to the south just means it isn't as urgent for them as the civilisations that border the Chaos Wastes.

    Instead of taking part in the big clash directly, they're likely to have their own objectives to pursue as things happen around them... and that's traditionally been where DLC comes in. Consider: Would you consider it as good planning for TWW2 to have High Elves, Dark Elves, and Lizardmen fighting over the Vortex while the Tomb Kings go looking for their books, with the Skaven coming in later DLC to join the race? Probably not. It's a similar situation here - whatever the planned narrative is going to be, it's the Chaos Gods and the civilised realms on the border of the Chaos Wastes that are the contenders. CDs and OKs are likely to have their own narratives, and that means DLC.
  • sykallsykall Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,935
    Honestly I do not get the point of Cathay being included only because of the chinese market. I am not saying, that it has no influence on this. But there are so many reasons for Catahays inclusions besides the chinese market. Its position and relative prominence in the east, its relation to chaos, the potential as an interesting factions etc. pp.

    As it exist in this forum the market-representation-argument is so reduced but at the same time attibuted absolutism, that it has very little value in an argumentation. It is not an argument that supports an thesis, but an thesis clothed as an argument.
    Filling the white spots - 7 made-up factions to enrich the empty parts of the WFB setting
    https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/288418/filling-the-white-spots-7-made-up-factions-to-fill-out-the-wfb-setting
  • ArneSoArneSo Hamburg, Germany Registered Users Posts: 35,090

    ArneSo said:

    Amonkhet said:

    Am I the only one thinking that the next DLC for TWW2 may be a campaign pack featuring a less known race such as Albion, Amazons and Araby?

    Them, or the Legion of Nagash (since AoS models can now be used but not lore) make the most sense, as a 2-LL race pack.
    The Legions of Nagash are better suited for game 3 since I can bet that

    will be part of the map, and Nagashizzar is on that map.
    The preorder is for WH3.
    And there are more possibilities for a pre-order than just Nagash, such as the Norse Dwarfs and
    True, Norse Dwarfs would also make sense.
    Nurgle is love, Nurgle is life
  • AbmongAbmong Registered Users Posts: 3,812

    Sorry, no.

    It's Chinese money that gave us Cathay and they tested the waters with 3K.

    So unless you can show all the untapped potential of other markets, NOPE.

    Troy was recieved well. Amazons confirmed?
    They would't need to. If Cathay converts more people to become new adopters of the series, any content after will likely make money off of those customers too.

    A faction like Cathay is the hook to create a larger base of preexisting customers who will likely want to collect all the factions the game has to offer. It doesn't really work on a case by case basis. It's not the same as if they were to release unrelated titles where you need a new hook for every release. You only need one or two hooks for a series and the rest is milking the accumulated customer base.
    Something tells me this comment will get a Disagree
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 11,180
    sykall said:

    Honestly I do not get the point of Cathay being included only because of the chinese market. I am not saying, that it has no influence on this. But there are so many reasons for Catahays inclusions besides the chinese market. Its position and relative prominence in the east, its relation to chaos, the potential as an interesting factions etc. pp.

    As it exist in this forum the market-representation-argument is so reduced but at the same time attibuted absolutism, that it has very little value in an argumentation. It is not an argument that supports an thesis, but an thesis clothed as an argument.

    To be fair, some people DID argue for Cathay on the "Chinese money" grounds - but that was only one of several points that were made. Now, though, some the people who were most insistent that it couldn't ever happen and that it would ruin the game if it did are sticking their feet in and trying to claim that they were still right and that all of the other arguments made are still invalid, it's just that CA and GW sold out.

    Truth is, if you go through the variations of Warhammer, there are several points where it's implied (or even flat-out stated) that they were at least thinking about making Cathay, they just never got around to it until now. Maybe the prospect of getting those sweet, sweet yuan was the final push. Or maybe it was just that the success of TWW meant that GW felt it was worthwhile, especially considering that less investment is needed for a computer game than making an entire physical production line.
  • EmrysorEmrysor Registered Users Posts: 522
    The reason I think they went with Cathay were the following. GW is making the new edition with Kislev and Cathay, which previously were bare. So the is a business side here. The second reason is that they already chose to go mono gods and possible with a lot of demons. That kinda alienates people wanting to play good guys or human like races. So if they go four chaos races at launch they gotta balance that with opposing order factions. Both chaos dwarves and ogre kingdoms do not fit this box to tick off, and probably decided they want them done similar to tomb kings and vampire coast.

    I was very worried that the game would launch with too many monster/evil factions and after gotten kislev and Cathay I am very lich pleased. :)
  • TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001

    Am I the only one thinking that the next DLC for TWW2 may be a campaign pack featuring a less known race such as Albion, Amazons and Araby?

    No, you won't.

    Because the Chinese aren't paying for it.

    How long until this sinks in? Cathay isn't in because CA/GW want to flesh out the universe, they just want the Chinese money!
    Draxynnic said:

    sykall said:

    Honestly I do not get the point of Cathay being included only because of the chinese market. I am not saying, that it has no influence on this. But there are so many reasons for Catahays inclusions besides the chinese market. Its position and relative prominence in the east, its relation to chaos, the potential as an interesting factions etc. pp.

    As it exist in this forum the market-representation-argument is so reduced but at the same time attibuted absolutism, that it has very little value in an argumentation. It is not an argument that supports an thesis, but an thesis clothed as an argument.

    To be fair, some people DID argue for Cathay on the "Chinese money" grounds - but that was only one of several points that were made. Now, though, some the people who were most insistent that it couldn't ever happen and that it would ruin the game if it did are sticking their feet in and trying to claim that they were still right and that all of the other arguments made are still invalid, it's just that CA and GW sold out.

    Truth is, if you go through the variations of Warhammer, there are several points where it's implied (or even flat-out stated) that they were at least thinking about making Cathay, they just never got around to it until now. Maybe the prospect of getting those sweet, sweet yuan was the final push. Or maybe it was just that the success of TWW meant that GW felt it was worthwhile, especially considering that less investment is needed for a computer game than making an entire physical production line.
    Uh, of course they sold out. You think they did that out of the goodness of their hearts and because they care about a bunch of diehards who clamored for it?

    Nah, it's Chinese money all the way, baby.
  • SaintCornSaintCorn Registered Users Posts: 2,792
    Draxynnic said:

    sykall said:

    Honestly I do not get the point of Cathay being included only because of the chinese market. I am not saying, that it has no influence on this. But there are so many reasons for Catahays inclusions besides the chinese market. Its position and relative prominence in the east, its relation to chaos, the potential as an interesting factions etc. pp.

    As it exist in this forum the market-representation-argument is so reduced but at the same time attibuted absolutism, that it has very little value in an argumentation. It is not an argument that supports an thesis, but an thesis clothed as an argument.

    To be fair, some people DID argue for Cathay on the "Chinese money" grounds - but that was only one of several points that were made. Now, though, some the people who were most insistent that it couldn't ever happen and that it would ruin the game if it did are sticking their feet in and trying to claim that they were still right and that all of the other arguments made are still invalid, it's just that CA and GW sold out.

    Truth is, if you go through the variations of Warhammer, there are several points where it's implied (or even flat-out stated) that they were at least thinking about making Cathay, they just never got around to it until now. Maybe the prospect of getting those sweet, sweet yuan was the final push. Or maybe it was just that the success of TWW meant that GW felt it was worthwhile, especially considering that less investment is needed for a computer game than making an entire physical production line.
    Yeah, the Cathay will never happen crowd has basically just kept the same position, but they applied it to every other race even though, we have absolutely no way of knowing what is or isn't likely at this point other than Chaos Dwarfs and Ogre Kingdoms will come at some point.

  • TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001
    Cathay getting included over legitimate WHFB races like CD and OK shows exactly that it's a sellout move made because of greed for Chinese lucre.
  • AbmongAbmong Registered Users Posts: 3,812

    Am I the only one thinking that the next DLC for TWW2 may be a campaign pack featuring a less known race such as Albion, Amazons and Araby?

    No, you won't.

    Because the Chinese aren't paying for it.

    How long until this sinks in? Cathay isn't in because CA/GW want to flesh out the universe, they just want the Chinese money!
    Draxynnic said:

    sykall said:

    Honestly I do not get the point of Cathay being included only because of the chinese market. I am not saying, that it has no influence on this. But there are so many reasons for Catahays inclusions besides the chinese market. Its position and relative prominence in the east, its relation to chaos, the potential as an interesting factions etc. pp.

    As it exist in this forum the market-representation-argument is so reduced but at the same time attibuted absolutism, that it has very little value in an argumentation. It is not an argument that supports an thesis, but an thesis clothed as an argument.

    To be fair, some people DID argue for Cathay on the "Chinese money" grounds - but that was only one of several points that were made. Now, though, some the people who were most insistent that it couldn't ever happen and that it would ruin the game if it did are sticking their feet in and trying to claim that they were still right and that all of the other arguments made are still invalid, it's just that CA and GW sold out.

    Truth is, if you go through the variations of Warhammer, there are several points where it's implied (or even flat-out stated) that they were at least thinking about making Cathay, they just never got around to it until now. Maybe the prospect of getting those sweet, sweet yuan was the final push. Or maybe it was just that the success of TWW meant that GW felt it was worthwhile, especially considering that less investment is needed for a computer game than making an entire physical production line.
    Uh, of course they sold out. You think they did that out of the goodness of their hearts and because they care about a bunch of diehards who clamored for it?

    Nah, it's Chinese money all the way, baby.
    It's a business. Money is the only real reason that matters. And what is this "selling out" BS GW never said they weren't going to do Cathay. It was just shelved for a time, now it's been taken off the shelves, dusted to put on display.
    No one ever said WH would only be a western centric setting. It only worked out that way due to lack of motivations to expand at the time, now they have the motivation, what's wrong with that?

    Remember Citadel and GW did a lot of Eastern themed models back in the day. If you want proof Cathay has WH pedigree just check out the Oriental Heroes range, You'll find some Cathay minis in amongst the Nippon ones.
    Dragon Monks and Wu-Jen Wizards.
    Something tells me this comment will get a Disagree
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