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With Cathay CA & GW unshackled a dragons load of possibilities for the future

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Comments

  • TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001
    Abmong said:

    Am I the only one thinking that the next DLC for TWW2 may be a campaign pack featuring a less known race such as Albion, Amazons and Araby?

    No, you won't.

    Because the Chinese aren't paying for it.

    How long until this sinks in? Cathay isn't in because CA/GW want to flesh out the universe, they just want the Chinese money!
    Draxynnic said:

    sykall said:

    Honestly I do not get the point of Cathay being included only because of the chinese market. I am not saying, that it has no influence on this. But there are so many reasons for Catahays inclusions besides the chinese market. Its position and relative prominence in the east, its relation to chaos, the potential as an interesting factions etc. pp.

    As it exist in this forum the market-representation-argument is so reduced but at the same time attibuted absolutism, that it has very little value in an argumentation. It is not an argument that supports an thesis, but an thesis clothed as an argument.

    To be fair, some people DID argue for Cathay on the "Chinese money" grounds - but that was only one of several points that were made. Now, though, some the people who were most insistent that it couldn't ever happen and that it would ruin the game if it did are sticking their feet in and trying to claim that they were still right and that all of the other arguments made are still invalid, it's just that CA and GW sold out.

    Truth is, if you go through the variations of Warhammer, there are several points where it's implied (or even flat-out stated) that they were at least thinking about making Cathay, they just never got around to it until now. Maybe the prospect of getting those sweet, sweet yuan was the final push. Or maybe it was just that the success of TWW meant that GW felt it was worthwhile, especially considering that less investment is needed for a computer game than making an entire physical production line.
    Uh, of course they sold out. You think they did that out of the goodness of their hearts and because they care about a bunch of diehards who clamored for it?

    Nah, it's Chinese money all the way, baby.
    It's a business. Money is the only real reason that matters. And what is this "selling out" BS GW never said they weren't going to do Cathay. It was just shelved for a time, now it's been taken off the shelves, dusted to put on display.
    No one ever said WH would only be a western centric setting. It only worked out that way due to lack of motivations to expand at the time, now they have the motivation, what's wrong with that?

    Remember Citadel and GW did a lot of Eastern themed models back in the day. If you want proof Cathay has WH pedigree just check out the Oriental Heroes range, You'll find some Cathay minis in amongst the Nippon ones.
    Dragon Monks and Wu-Jen Wizards.
    Shunting CD and OK to the wayside in favor of mock-China, that's selling out.
  • CoriendalCoriendal Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 10
    Who says that GW and CA didn't want to do Cathay eventually? It would be nice, but we don't know if it would sell, they said. Three Kingdoms launch, Chinese market loves it. We want to do it, have up to date asian models, and it looks like it will sell very well. Bingo, easy decision.

    Yes, money almost guaranteed means we can sink time and resources into making Cathay. No matter how much you want to do something if it won't make money you can't, as a business, do it if you want to stay solvent.

    What Cathay means to me is Nippon, Snake men and any number of other cool and fun races and factions can be made. If the Chinese market lets this happen, hurrah!

    Stop trying to be right and just enjoy the new possibilities.
  • sykallsykall Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,852
    And just because Cathay is included, does it not mean Chaos Dwarfs and Ogres won't come. They are probably the first DLC factions relased. And on the bright sight this would mean, that they start with ca 4 LL and with an complete rooster without any holes for Lord Packs.
    Filling the white spots - 7 made-up factions to enrich the empty parts of the WFB setting
    https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/288418/filling-the-white-spots-7-made-up-factions-to-fill-out-the-wfb-setting
  • TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001
    sykall said:

    And just because Cathay is included, does it not mean Chaos Dwarfs and Ogres won't come. They are probably the first DLC factions relased. And on the bright sight this would mean, that they start with ca 4 LL and with an complete rooster without any holes for Lord Packs.

    It means they had to give up core-race spots in favor of mock-China. They got shafted one way or another.
  • BlacedBlaced Registered Users Posts: 1,557
    I love HinterLands of Khuresh, excited about the Fantasy Sslyth Snakemen
  • AbmongAbmong Registered Users Posts: 3,648


    Shunting CD and OK to the wayside in favor of mock-China, that's selling out.

    Not really. It's not like they've cancelled CD and OK in favour of Cathay. They never promised what order factions would come in, that's just you own artibrary expectations.

    And what is CD and OK if no mock this and mock that. Everything in WH is "mock" something.

    Something tells me this comment will get a Disagree
  • Mr_Finley7Mr_Finley7 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 8,074

    sykall said:

    And just because Cathay is included, does it not mean Chaos Dwarfs and Ogres won't come. They are probably the first DLC factions relased. And on the bright sight this would mean, that they start with ca 4 LL and with an complete rooster without any holes for Lord Packs.

    It means they had to give up core-race spots in favor of mock-China. They got shafted one way or another.
    Keep in mind that Ogres and CD were THE least popular armies on the TT, they didnt have the built in numbers CA would have wanted to sell WH3. It needed Kislev to sell; Cathay is gonna have it setting records. No ones getting shafted yet, anymore then HE have gotten shafted with their skim milk and tap water race mechanic.
  • Cadia101Cadia101 Registered Users Posts: 1,400

    sykall said:

    And just because Cathay is included, does it not mean Chaos Dwarfs and Ogres won't come. They are probably the first DLC factions relased. And on the bright sight this would mean, that they start with ca 4 LL and with an complete rooster without any holes for Lord Packs.

    It means they had to give up core-race spots in favor of mock-China. They got shafted one way or another.
    Keep in mind that Ogres and CD were THE least popular armies on the TT, they didnt have the built in numbers CA would have wanted to sell WH3. It needed Kislev to sell; Cathay is gonna have it setting records. No ones getting shafted yet, anymore then HE have gotten shafted with their skim milk and tap water race mechanic.
    Where not Ogres quite popular ?
    Very few models needed and easy to paint, with a powerful armybook.

    I had the impression they where quite popular.

    And Chaos dwarves where abandoned by GW so I am not surprised they where not popular, who know if GW had decided to support them.
  • Mr_Finley7Mr_Finley7 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 8,074
    Cadia101 said:

    sykall said:

    And just because Cathay is included, does it not mean Chaos Dwarfs and Ogres won't come. They are probably the first DLC factions relased. And on the bright sight this would mean, that they start with ca 4 LL and with an complete rooster without any holes for Lord Packs.

    It means they had to give up core-race spots in favor of mock-China. They got shafted one way or another.
    Keep in mind that Ogres and CD were THE least popular armies on the TT, they didnt have the built in numbers CA would have wanted to sell WH3. It needed Kislev to sell; Cathay is gonna have it setting records. No ones getting shafted yet, anymore then HE have gotten shafted with their skim milk and tap water race mechanic.
    Where not Ogres quite popular ?
    Very few models needed and easy to paint, with a powerful armybook.

    I had the impression they where quite popular.

    And Chaos dwarves where abandoned by GW so I am not surprised they where not popular, who know if GW had decided to support them.
    Im not saying they had no fans, but they were certainly at least in the bottom five.
  • Cadia101Cadia101 Registered Users Posts: 1,400

    Cadia101 said:

    sykall said:

    And just because Cathay is included, does it not mean Chaos Dwarfs and Ogres won't come. They are probably the first DLC factions relased. And on the bright sight this would mean, that they start with ca 4 LL and with an complete rooster without any holes for Lord Packs.

    It means they had to give up core-race spots in favor of mock-China. They got shafted one way or another.
    Keep in mind that Ogres and CD were THE least popular armies on the TT, they didnt have the built in numbers CA would have wanted to sell WH3. It needed Kislev to sell; Cathay is gonna have it setting records. No ones getting shafted yet, anymore then HE have gotten shafted with their skim milk and tap water race mechanic.
    Where not Ogres quite popular ?
    Very few models needed and easy to paint, with a powerful armybook.

    I had the impression they where quite popular.

    And Chaos dwarves where abandoned by GW so I am not surprised they where not popular, who know if GW had decided to support them.
    Im not saying they had no fans, but they were certainly at least in the bottom five.
    Really ? Mh...

    I guess being the last introduced faction did impact their popularity a bit.
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 11,023

    Cadia101 said:

    sykall said:

    And just because Cathay is included, does it not mean Chaos Dwarfs and Ogres won't come. They are probably the first DLC factions relased. And on the bright sight this would mean, that they start with ca 4 LL and with an complete rooster without any holes for Lord Packs.

    It means they had to give up core-race spots in favor of mock-China. They got shafted one way or another.
    Keep in mind that Ogres and CD were THE least popular armies on the TT, they didnt have the built in numbers CA would have wanted to sell WH3. It needed Kislev to sell; Cathay is gonna have it setting records. No ones getting shafted yet, anymore then HE have gotten shafted with their skim milk and tap water race mechanic.
    Where not Ogres quite popular ?
    Very few models needed and easy to paint, with a powerful armybook.

    I had the impression they where quite popular.

    And Chaos dwarves where abandoned by GW so I am not surprised they where not popular, who know if GW had decided to support them.
    Im not saying they had no fans, but they were certainly at least in the bottom five.
    From the stats I've seen, they beat the Tomb Kings, but were definitely in the same ballpark as the existing DLC races with army books (except WoC).

    It is one thing I was thinking in this discussion - OK and CD were always somewhat "what's left?" picks. GW knows they were relatively unpopular, while Kislev and Cathay are both untested. It might have been part of the decision-making process of CA and GW that they'd rather take a risk rather than starting with something they know is less popular.

    I think the primary reason is narrative, but not wanting to bet on races they knew didn't do the best on tabletop might have been a contributing factor.
  • BonutzBonutz Registered Users Posts: 5,215
    Just from a geographical perspective, Cathay was a mandatory inclusion if CA wanted to make a full world map.

    Otherwise, there would be a LARGE chunk of empty space in the east if Cathay was omitted from the start. It would make for a small and dull map otherwise.

    In hindsight, CA’s decision makes sense.
    I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass...and I’m all out of bubblegum.
  • CrossilCrossil Registered Users Posts: 14,872
    edited February 2021
    Draxynnic said:

    Cadia101 said:

    sykall said:

    And just because Cathay is included, does it not mean Chaos Dwarfs and Ogres won't come. They are probably the first DLC factions relased. And on the bright sight this would mean, that they start with ca 4 LL and with an complete rooster without any holes for Lord Packs.

    It means they had to give up core-race spots in favor of mock-China. They got shafted one way or another.
    Keep in mind that Ogres and CD were THE least popular armies on the TT, they didnt have the built in numbers CA would have wanted to sell WH3. It needed Kislev to sell; Cathay is gonna have it setting records. No ones getting shafted yet, anymore then HE have gotten shafted with their skim milk and tap water race mechanic.
    Where not Ogres quite popular ?
    Very few models needed and easy to paint, with a powerful armybook.

    I had the impression they where quite popular.

    And Chaos dwarves where abandoned by GW so I am not surprised they where not popular, who know if GW had decided to support them.
    Im not saying they had no fans, but they were certainly at least in the bottom five.
    From the stats I've seen, they beat the Tomb Kings, but were definitely in the same ballpark as the existing DLC races with army books (except WoC).

    It is one thing I was thinking in this discussion - OK and CD were always somewhat "what's left?" picks. GW knows they were relatively unpopular, while Kislev and Cathay are both untested. It might have been part of the decision-making process of CA and GW that they'd rather take a risk rather than starting with something they know is less popular.

    I think the primary reason is narrative, but not wanting to bet on races they knew didn't do the best on tabletop might have been a contributing factor.
    So they instead went for a race that had literally no tabletop to speak of? And they themselves admit so? That they are making them from nothing and all that hint searching wasn't actually correct?

    C'mon, man, narrative could've been adapted in several different ways. The fact it was made in this way makes the entire thing doubtful.

    And even in your own proclamation that they did it for the narrative, it still means they aren't doing any more such races. Because now there is no narrative pushing for them.
    Bonutz said:

    Just from a geographical perspective, Cathay was a mandatory inclusion if CA wanted to make a full world map.

    Otherwise, there would be a LARGE chunk of empty space in the east if Cathay was omitted from the start. It would make for a small and dull map otherwise.

    In hindsight, CA’s decision makes sense.

    And what if we still don't get a full map? What will be the argument then?
    Furthermore, I consider that Daemon Prince must be removed.
  • saweendrasaweendra Registered Users Posts: 17,625
    Crossil said:

    Draxynnic said:

    Cadia101 said:

    sykall said:

    And just because Cathay is included, does it not mean Chaos Dwarfs and Ogres won't come. They are probably the first DLC factions relased. And on the bright sight this would mean, that they start with ca 4 LL and with an complete rooster without any holes for Lord Packs.

    It means they had to give up core-race spots in favor of mock-China. They got shafted one way or another.
    Keep in mind that Ogres and CD were THE least popular armies on the TT, they didnt have the built in numbers CA would have wanted to sell WH3. It needed Kislev to sell; Cathay is gonna have it setting records. No ones getting shafted yet, anymore then HE have gotten shafted with their skim milk and tap water race mechanic.
    Where not Ogres quite popular ?
    Very few models needed and easy to paint, with a powerful armybook.

    I had the impression they where quite popular.

    And Chaos dwarves where abandoned by GW so I am not surprised they where not popular, who know if GW had decided to support them.
    Im not saying they had no fans, but they were certainly at least in the bottom five.
    From the stats I've seen, they beat the Tomb Kings, but were definitely in the same ballpark as the existing DLC races with army books (except WoC).

    It is one thing I was thinking in this discussion - OK and CD were always somewhat "what's left?" picks. GW knows they were relatively unpopular, while Kislev and Cathay are both untested. It might have been part of the decision-making process of CA and GW that they'd rather take a risk rather than starting with something they know is less popular.

    I think the primary reason is narrative, but not wanting to bet on races they knew didn't do the best on tabletop might have been a contributing factor.
    So they instead went for a race that had literally no tabletop to speak off?

    C'mon, man, narrative could've been adapted in several different ways. The fact it was made in this way makes the entire thing doubtful.

    And even in your own proclamation that they did it for the narrative, it still means they aren't doing any more such races. Because now there is no narrative pushing for them.
    Their writing the narrative now we haven't read it yet. But realistically this inclusion the east as whole made sense to me , it was the only big part of the wh world not to be explored on, so by exploring it allowz them to sell more stuff because now yiu make more stuff to newer races and it will feel fresh kind of fits how they do aos when they are making crap ton of races.

    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc


  • BonutzBonutz Registered Users Posts: 5,215
    Crossil said:

    Draxynnic said:

    Cadia101 said:

    sykall said:

    And just because Cathay is included, does it not mean Chaos Dwarfs and Ogres won't come. They are probably the first DLC factions relased. And on the bright sight this would mean, that they start with ca 4 LL and with an complete rooster without any holes for Lord Packs.

    It means they had to give up core-race spots in favor of mock-China. They got shafted one way or another.
    Keep in mind that Ogres and CD were THE least popular armies on the TT, they didnt have the built in numbers CA would have wanted to sell WH3. It needed Kislev to sell; Cathay is gonna have it setting records. No ones getting shafted yet, anymore then HE have gotten shafted with their skim milk and tap water race mechanic.
    Where not Ogres quite popular ?
    Very few models needed and easy to paint, with a powerful armybook.

    I had the impression they where quite popular.

    And Chaos dwarves where abandoned by GW so I am not surprised they where not popular, who know if GW had decided to support them.
    Im not saying they had no fans, but they were certainly at least in the bottom five.
    From the stats I've seen, they beat the Tomb Kings, but were definitely in the same ballpark as the existing DLC races with army books (except WoC).

    It is one thing I was thinking in this discussion - OK and CD were always somewhat "what's left?" picks. GW knows they were relatively unpopular, while Kislev and Cathay are both untested. It might have been part of the decision-making process of CA and GW that they'd rather take a risk rather than starting with something they know is less popular.

    I think the primary reason is narrative, but not wanting to bet on races they knew didn't do the best on tabletop might have been a contributing factor.
    So they instead went for a race that had literally no tabletop to speak of? And they themselves admit so? That they are making them from nothing and all that hint searching wasn't actually correct?

    C'mon, man, narrative could've been adapted in several different ways. The fact it was made in this way makes the entire thing doubtful.

    And even in your own proclamation that they did it for the narrative, it still means they aren't doing any more such races. Because now there is no narrative pushing for them.
    Bonutz said:

    Just from a geographical perspective, Cathay was a mandatory inclusion if CA wanted to make a full world map.

    Otherwise, there would be a LARGE chunk of empty space in the east if Cathay was omitted from the start. It would make for a small and dull map otherwise.

    In hindsight, CA’s decision makes sense.

    And what if we still don't get a full map? What will be the argument then?
    We’ll cross that bridge if and when we get to it but so far all signs point to there being a full world map with Cathay’s inclusion.
    I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass...and I’m all out of bubblegum.
  • CrossilCrossil Registered Users Posts: 14,872
    Bonutz said:

    Crossil said:

    Draxynnic said:

    Cadia101 said:

    sykall said:

    And just because Cathay is included, does it not mean Chaos Dwarfs and Ogres won't come. They are probably the first DLC factions relased. And on the bright sight this would mean, that they start with ca 4 LL and with an complete rooster without any holes for Lord Packs.

    It means they had to give up core-race spots in favor of mock-China. They got shafted one way or another.
    Keep in mind that Ogres and CD were THE least popular armies on the TT, they didnt have the built in numbers CA would have wanted to sell WH3. It needed Kislev to sell; Cathay is gonna have it setting records. No ones getting shafted yet, anymore then HE have gotten shafted with their skim milk and tap water race mechanic.
    Where not Ogres quite popular ?
    Very few models needed and easy to paint, with a powerful armybook.

    I had the impression they where quite popular.

    And Chaos dwarves where abandoned by GW so I am not surprised they where not popular, who know if GW had decided to support them.
    Im not saying they had no fans, but they were certainly at least in the bottom five.
    From the stats I've seen, they beat the Tomb Kings, but were definitely in the same ballpark as the existing DLC races with army books (except WoC).

    It is one thing I was thinking in this discussion - OK and CD were always somewhat "what's left?" picks. GW knows they were relatively unpopular, while Kislev and Cathay are both untested. It might have been part of the decision-making process of CA and GW that they'd rather take a risk rather than starting with something they know is less popular.

    I think the primary reason is narrative, but not wanting to bet on races they knew didn't do the best on tabletop might have been a contributing factor.
    So they instead went for a race that had literally no tabletop to speak of? And they themselves admit so? That they are making them from nothing and all that hint searching wasn't actually correct?

    C'mon, man, narrative could've been adapted in several different ways. The fact it was made in this way makes the entire thing doubtful.

    And even in your own proclamation that they did it for the narrative, it still means they aren't doing any more such races. Because now there is no narrative pushing for them.
    Bonutz said:

    Just from a geographical perspective, Cathay was a mandatory inclusion if CA wanted to make a full world map.

    Otherwise, there would be a LARGE chunk of empty space in the east if Cathay was omitted from the start. It would make for a small and dull map otherwise.

    In hindsight, CA’s decision makes sense.

    And what if we still don't get a full map? What will be the argument then?
    We’ll cross that bridge if and when we get to it but so far all signs point to there being a full world map with Cathay’s inclusion.
    I see no signs pointing at that.
    Furthermore, I consider that Daemon Prince must be removed.
  • TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001
    The "narrative" reasoning that's being pushed around to justify the inclusion of Cathay and the sidelining of Chaos Dwarfs and Ogres holds no water because they for sure first decided on the factions and then created the narrative around their choice.

    As for the narrative...so you play Kislev and then the Daemons destroy Cathay on the other side of the map.

    So what? How in hell would that matter? I mean, it's not like you could just rush over there to prevent that from happening when you take into account just how far away those factions are from each other.

    Now take Chaos Dwarfs in contrast, who are roughly 2309583409568309546780495876094578x as important to the lore and the setting than Cathay for the simple reason that they supply the warriors of chaos with armor and weapons! So beating them would mean that Chaos would have been dealt a crippling blow and their threat level severely reduced.

    Yeah, don't come at me with "narrative".
  • BonutzBonutz Registered Users Posts: 5,215
    Crossil said:

    Bonutz said:

    Crossil said:

    Draxynnic said:

    Cadia101 said:

    sykall said:

    And just because Cathay is included, does it not mean Chaos Dwarfs and Ogres won't come. They are probably the first DLC factions relased. And on the bright sight this would mean, that they start with ca 4 LL and with an complete rooster without any holes for Lord Packs.

    It means they had to give up core-race spots in favor of mock-China. They got shafted one way or another.
    Keep in mind that Ogres and CD were THE least popular armies on the TT, they didnt have the built in numbers CA would have wanted to sell WH3. It needed Kislev to sell; Cathay is gonna have it setting records. No ones getting shafted yet, anymore then HE have gotten shafted with their skim milk and tap water race mechanic.
    Where not Ogres quite popular ?
    Very few models needed and easy to paint, with a powerful armybook.

    I had the impression they where quite popular.

    And Chaos dwarves where abandoned by GW so I am not surprised they where not popular, who know if GW had decided to support them.
    Im not saying they had no fans, but they were certainly at least in the bottom five.
    From the stats I've seen, they beat the Tomb Kings, but were definitely in the same ballpark as the existing DLC races with army books (except WoC).

    It is one thing I was thinking in this discussion - OK and CD were always somewhat "what's left?" picks. GW knows they were relatively unpopular, while Kislev and Cathay are both untested. It might have been part of the decision-making process of CA and GW that they'd rather take a risk rather than starting with something they know is less popular.

    I think the primary reason is narrative, but not wanting to bet on races they knew didn't do the best on tabletop might have been a contributing factor.
    So they instead went for a race that had literally no tabletop to speak of? And they themselves admit so? That they are making them from nothing and all that hint searching wasn't actually correct?

    C'mon, man, narrative could've been adapted in several different ways. The fact it was made in this way makes the entire thing doubtful.

    And even in your own proclamation that they did it for the narrative, it still means they aren't doing any more such races. Because now there is no narrative pushing for them.
    Bonutz said:

    Just from a geographical perspective, Cathay was a mandatory inclusion if CA wanted to make a full world map.

    Otherwise, there would be a LARGE chunk of empty space in the east if Cathay was omitted from the start. It would make for a small and dull map otherwise.

    In hindsight, CA’s decision makes sense.

    And what if we still don't get a full map? What will be the argument then?
    We’ll cross that bridge if and when we get to it but so far all signs point to there being a full world map with Cathay’s inclusion.
    I see no signs pointing at that.
    So you still think we’re getting Dark Lands, MoM and Chaos Wastes as the Game 3 map even though CA just confirmed that Cathay, and by extension, the Far East is literally on the Game 3 map?
    I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass...and I’m all out of bubblegum.
  • CrossilCrossil Registered Users Posts: 14,872
    Bonutz said:

    Crossil said:

    Bonutz said:

    Crossil said:

    Draxynnic said:

    Cadia101 said:

    sykall said:

    And just because Cathay is included, does it not mean Chaos Dwarfs and Ogres won't come. They are probably the first DLC factions relased. And on the bright sight this would mean, that they start with ca 4 LL and with an complete rooster without any holes for Lord Packs.

    It means they had to give up core-race spots in favor of mock-China. They got shafted one way or another.
    Keep in mind that Ogres and CD were THE least popular armies on the TT, they didnt have the built in numbers CA would have wanted to sell WH3. It needed Kislev to sell; Cathay is gonna have it setting records. No ones getting shafted yet, anymore then HE have gotten shafted with their skim milk and tap water race mechanic.
    Where not Ogres quite popular ?
    Very few models needed and easy to paint, with a powerful armybook.

    I had the impression they where quite popular.

    And Chaos dwarves where abandoned by GW so I am not surprised they where not popular, who know if GW had decided to support them.
    Im not saying they had no fans, but they were certainly at least in the bottom five.
    From the stats I've seen, they beat the Tomb Kings, but were definitely in the same ballpark as the existing DLC races with army books (except WoC).

    It is one thing I was thinking in this discussion - OK and CD were always somewhat "what's left?" picks. GW knows they were relatively unpopular, while Kislev and Cathay are both untested. It might have been part of the decision-making process of CA and GW that they'd rather take a risk rather than starting with something they know is less popular.

    I think the primary reason is narrative, but not wanting to bet on races they knew didn't do the best on tabletop might have been a contributing factor.
    So they instead went for a race that had literally no tabletop to speak of? And they themselves admit so? That they are making them from nothing and all that hint searching wasn't actually correct?

    C'mon, man, narrative could've been adapted in several different ways. The fact it was made in this way makes the entire thing doubtful.

    And even in your own proclamation that they did it for the narrative, it still means they aren't doing any more such races. Because now there is no narrative pushing for them.
    Bonutz said:

    Just from a geographical perspective, Cathay was a mandatory inclusion if CA wanted to make a full world map.

    Otherwise, there would be a LARGE chunk of empty space in the east if Cathay was omitted from the start. It would make for a small and dull map otherwise.

    In hindsight, CA’s decision makes sense.

    And what if we still don't get a full map? What will be the argument then?
    We’ll cross that bridge if and when we get to it but so far all signs point to there being a full world map with Cathay’s inclusion.
    I see no signs pointing at that.
    So you still think we’re getting Dark Lands, MoM and Chaos Wastes as the Game 3 map even though CA just confirmed that Cathay, and by extension, the Far East is literally on the Game 3 map?
    No, not the far east, just Cathay.
    Furthermore, I consider that Daemon Prince must be removed.
  • Man2008kindMan2008kind Bucharest, RomaniaRegistered Users Posts: 1,854
    Crossil said:

    Bonutz said:

    Crossil said:

    Bonutz said:

    Crossil said:

    Draxynnic said:

    Cadia101 said:

    sykall said:

    And just because Cathay is included, does it not mean Chaos Dwarfs and Ogres won't come. They are probably the first DLC factions relased. And on the bright sight this would mean, that they start with ca 4 LL and with an complete rooster without any holes for Lord Packs.

    It means they had to give up core-race spots in favor of mock-China. They got shafted one way or another.
    Keep in mind that Ogres and CD were THE least popular armies on the TT, they didnt have the built in numbers CA would have wanted to sell WH3. It needed Kislev to sell; Cathay is gonna have it setting records. No ones getting shafted yet, anymore then HE have gotten shafted with their skim milk and tap water race mechanic.
    Where not Ogres quite popular ?
    Very few models needed and easy to paint, with a powerful armybook.

    I had the impression they where quite popular.

    And Chaos dwarves where abandoned by GW so I am not surprised they where not popular, who know if GW had decided to support them.
    Im not saying they had no fans, but they were certainly at least in the bottom five.
    From the stats I've seen, they beat the Tomb Kings, but were definitely in the same ballpark as the existing DLC races with army books (except WoC).

    It is one thing I was thinking in this discussion - OK and CD were always somewhat "what's left?" picks. GW knows they were relatively unpopular, while Kislev and Cathay are both untested. It might have been part of the decision-making process of CA and GW that they'd rather take a risk rather than starting with something they know is less popular.

    I think the primary reason is narrative, but not wanting to bet on races they knew didn't do the best on tabletop might have been a contributing factor.
    So they instead went for a race that had literally no tabletop to speak of? And they themselves admit so? That they are making them from nothing and all that hint searching wasn't actually correct?

    C'mon, man, narrative could've been adapted in several different ways. The fact it was made in this way makes the entire thing doubtful.

    And even in your own proclamation that they did it for the narrative, it still means they aren't doing any more such races. Because now there is no narrative pushing for them.
    Bonutz said:

    Just from a geographical perspective, Cathay was a mandatory inclusion if CA wanted to make a full world map.

    Otherwise, there would be a LARGE chunk of empty space in the east if Cathay was omitted from the start. It would make for a small and dull map otherwise.

    In hindsight, CA’s decision makes sense.

    And what if we still don't get a full map? What will be the argument then?
    We’ll cross that bridge if and when we get to it but so far all signs point to there being a full world map with Cathay’s inclusion.
    I see no signs pointing at that.
    So you still think we’re getting Dark Lands, MoM and Chaos Wastes as the Game 3 map even though CA just confirmed that Cathay, and by extension, the Far East is literally on the Game 3 map?
    No, not the far east, just Cathay.
    Have you read the interview where they explicitley said that TWW3's stand-alone campaign will be twice the size of the Eye of the Vortex?
  • saweendrasaweendra Registered Users Posts: 17,625

    The "narrative" reasoning that's being pushed around to justify the inclusion of Cathay and the sidelining of Chaos Dwarfs and Ogres holds no water because they for sure first decided on the factions and then created the narrative around their choice.

    As for the narrative...so you play Kislev and then the Daemons destroy Cathay on the other side of the map.

    So what? How in hell would that matter? I mean, it's not like you could just rush over there to prevent that from happening when you take into account just how far away those factions are from each other.

    Now take Chaos Dwarfs in contrast, who are roughly 2309583409568309546780495876094578x as important to the lore and the setting than Cathay for the simple reason that they supply the warriors of chaos with armor and weapons! So beating them would mean that Chaos would have been dealt a crippling blow and their threat level severely reduced.

    Yeah, don't come at me with "narrative".

    You do realize all the weapons could be made by chaos tribes or forges of khorne or what ever and narrative would still be the same. GW were hyper focused on stuff mate it made lot of races not a big deal to the narrative

    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc


  • CrossilCrossil Registered Users Posts: 14,872
    edited February 2021

    Crossil said:

    Bonutz said:

    Crossil said:

    Bonutz said:

    Crossil said:

    Draxynnic said:

    Cadia101 said:

    sykall said:

    And just because Cathay is included, does it not mean Chaos Dwarfs and Ogres won't come. They are probably the first DLC factions relased. And on the bright sight this would mean, that they start with ca 4 LL and with an complete rooster without any holes for Lord Packs.

    It means they had to give up core-race spots in favor of mock-China. They got shafted one way or another.
    Keep in mind that Ogres and CD were THE least popular armies on the TT, they didnt have the built in numbers CA would have wanted to sell WH3. It needed Kislev to sell; Cathay is gonna have it setting records. No ones getting shafted yet, anymore then HE have gotten shafted with their skim milk and tap water race mechanic.
    Where not Ogres quite popular ?
    Very few models needed and easy to paint, with a powerful armybook.

    I had the impression they where quite popular.

    And Chaos dwarves where abandoned by GW so I am not surprised they where not popular, who know if GW had decided to support them.
    Im not saying they had no fans, but they were certainly at least in the bottom five.
    From the stats I've seen, they beat the Tomb Kings, but were definitely in the same ballpark as the existing DLC races with army books (except WoC).

    It is one thing I was thinking in this discussion - OK and CD were always somewhat "what's left?" picks. GW knows they were relatively unpopular, while Kislev and Cathay are both untested. It might have been part of the decision-making process of CA and GW that they'd rather take a risk rather than starting with something they know is less popular.

    I think the primary reason is narrative, but not wanting to bet on races they knew didn't do the best on tabletop might have been a contributing factor.
    So they instead went for a race that had literally no tabletop to speak of? And they themselves admit so? That they are making them from nothing and all that hint searching wasn't actually correct?

    C'mon, man, narrative could've been adapted in several different ways. The fact it was made in this way makes the entire thing doubtful.

    And even in your own proclamation that they did it for the narrative, it still means they aren't doing any more such races. Because now there is no narrative pushing for them.
    Bonutz said:

    Just from a geographical perspective, Cathay was a mandatory inclusion if CA wanted to make a full world map.

    Otherwise, there would be a LARGE chunk of empty space in the east if Cathay was omitted from the start. It would make for a small and dull map otherwise.

    In hindsight, CA’s decision makes sense.

    And what if we still don't get a full map? What will be the argument then?
    We’ll cross that bridge if and when we get to it but so far all signs point to there being a full world map with Cathay’s inclusion.
    I see no signs pointing at that.
    So you still think we’re getting Dark Lands, MoM and Chaos Wastes as the Game 3 map even though CA just confirmed that Cathay, and by extension, the Far East is literally on the Game 3 map?
    No, not the far east, just Cathay.
    Have you read the interview where they explicitley said that TWW3's stand-alone campaign will be twice the size of the Eye of the Vortex?
    And? That does not mean the far east will be there. Mortal Empires is twice the size of the Vortex map and it still didn't have all of Lustria, Southlands and Naggaroth.

    There is no confirmation that there will be the far east. We, however, do have confirmation on the Chaos Wastes, Darklands, Mountains of Mourne, Cathay and, most importantly, Realm of Chaos. Hell, they do like to say how vast Cathay is, and the Realm of Chaos will have 4 races settled in it.

    That is already a good number of territories to work through, before you get to the far east. And since we can clearly see that Cathay has new provinces, we can also surmize the same applies to all of those areas. So whether or not they were detailed officially is no longer important. We could potentially have the entire circumference of the Chaos Wastes, since the new Chaos factions need space.
    Furthermore, I consider that Daemon Prince must be removed.
  • theedge634theedge634 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,225

    Sorry, no.

    It's Chinese money that gave us Cathay and they tested the waters with 3K.

    So unless you can show all the untapped potential of other markets, NOPE.

    Troy was recieved well. Amazons confirmed?
    Troy and the Amazons DLC were free on their launch day. Pretty hard to gauge a market based on that.

    O yeah, and you have no data regarding where Troy was DL'd most, so you have not shown any untapped markets outside of the people who like stuff for free.
    I agree with you to an extent. However, let's be real. There's a huge market for Nippon. Japan is the 3rd largest market in the world behind China and the US. However, unlike Chinese culture and mythology, Japanese culture an mythology are well known and popular in the US and the western world as well.

    I'd argue that the market for a Nippon faction is almost as large as one for Cathay when you add up the overall interest.
  • MiniaArMiniaAr Registered Users Posts: 1,685
    I kind of agree with the wait and see approach for the far East, meaning Nippon, Kuresh and Ind are not certain to be included (well not having Ind could be awkward on the Immortal empires map) just because we know Cathay is.

    However, I like the narrative explanation of Civilisation Vs Chaos. Market considerations certainly did play a role as well basically, there are a lot of reasons to include Cathay in game 3 and we'll never know the individual weighting of each of those used by CA for the final decision.

    I hope CD and OK are released quickly as campaign packs with complete roster (and I mean really complete. Not having a second generic lord choice like TK or Norsca is not " complete" for me)

    But I'm cautiously optimistic now, which wasn't the case two days ago (I wanted to wait for sales to get game 3, now I'm probably starting playing it at launch).
  • TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001
    edited February 2021
    saweendra said:

    The "narrative" reasoning that's being pushed around to justify the inclusion of Cathay and the sidelining of Chaos Dwarfs and Ogres holds no water because they for sure first decided on the factions and then created the narrative around their choice.

    As for the narrative...so you play Kislev and then the Daemons destroy Cathay on the other side of the map.

    So what? How in hell would that matter? I mean, it's not like you could just rush over there to prevent that from happening when you take into account just how far away those factions are from each other.

    Now take Chaos Dwarfs in contrast, who are roughly 2309583409568309546780495876094578x as important to the lore and the setting than Cathay for the simple reason that they supply the warriors of chaos with armor and weapons! So beating them would mean that Chaos would have been dealt a crippling blow and their threat level severely reduced.

    Yeah, don't come at me with "narrative".

    You do realize all the weapons could be made by chaos tribes or forges of khorne or what ever and narrative would still be the same. GW were hyper focused on stuff mate it made lot of races not a big deal to the narrative
    No, they couldn't, because the Marauder tribes are a bunch of dumb cavemen sitting on resource-poor land. And daemon weapons cannot be easily brought over from the immaterium because...they're just as unreal as daemons are.

    Without the Chaos Dwarfs, the bulk of Chaos' armies are just half-naked morons swinging clubs at you.
  • saweendrasaweendra Registered Users Posts: 17,625

    saweendra said:

    The "narrative" reasoning that's being pushed around to justify the inclusion of Cathay and the sidelining of Chaos Dwarfs and Ogres holds no water because they for sure first decided on the factions and then created the narrative around their choice.

    As for the narrative...so you play Kislev and then the Daemons destroy Cathay on the other side of the map.

    So what? How in hell would that matter? I mean, it's not like you could just rush over there to prevent that from happening when you take into account just how far away those factions are from each other.

    Now take Chaos Dwarfs in contrast, who are roughly 2309583409568309546780495876094578x as important to the lore and the setting than Cathay for the simple reason that they supply the warriors of chaos with armor and weapons! So beating them would mean that Chaos would have been dealt a crippling blow and their threat level severely reduced.

    Yeah, don't come at me with "narrative".

    You do realize all the weapons could be made by chaos tribes or forges of khorne or what ever and narrative would still be the same. GW were hyper focused on stuff mate it made lot of races not a big deal to the narrative
    No, they couldn't, because the Marauder tribes are a bunch of dumb cavemen sitting on resource-poor land. And daemon weapons cannot be easily brought over from the immaterium because...they're just as unreal as daemons are.

    Without the Chaos Dwarfs, the bulk of Chaos' armies are just a bunch of half-naked morons swinging clubs at you.
    forges of khorne

    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc


  • CrossilCrossil Registered Users Posts: 14,872
    edited February 2021

    saweendra said:

    The "narrative" reasoning that's being pushed around to justify the inclusion of Cathay and the sidelining of Chaos Dwarfs and Ogres holds no water because they for sure first decided on the factions and then created the narrative around their choice.

    As for the narrative...so you play Kislev and then the Daemons destroy Cathay on the other side of the map.

    So what? How in hell would that matter? I mean, it's not like you could just rush over there to prevent that from happening when you take into account just how far away those factions are from each other.

    Now take Chaos Dwarfs in contrast, who are roughly 2309583409568309546780495876094578x as important to the lore and the setting than Cathay for the simple reason that they supply the warriors of chaos with armor and weapons! So beating them would mean that Chaos would have been dealt a crippling blow and their threat level severely reduced.

    Yeah, don't come at me with "narrative".

    You do realize all the weapons could be made by chaos tribes or forges of khorne or what ever and narrative would still be the same. GW were hyper focused on stuff mate it made lot of races not a big deal to the narrative
    No, they couldn't, because the Marauder tribes are a bunch of dumb cavemen sitting on resource-poor land. And daemon weapons cannot be easily brought over from the immaterium because...they're just as unreal as daemons are.

    Without the Chaos Dwarfs, the bulk of Chaos' armies are just half-naked morons swinging clubs at you.
    I can cite Warhammer RPG entries as well as Liber Chaotica sections that specifically note that the one most proficient skill Northmen excel at compared to more normal humans is making of Chaos Weapons and Armour. And that other parts of it are obtained through blessings of their gods and a part from trade with Chaos Dwarfs.
    Furthermore, I consider that Daemon Prince must be removed.
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