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Yes Kislev is cool, Cathay even cooler, but...

elkappelkapp Registered Users Posts: 1,237
...i'm still more interested in the siege rework, and i fear it might be ****.

I'm more interested in the siege rework because it's something that won't just make the game linearly more enjoyable (like getting new races), but exponentially since it improve not one race, but all.

It might be **** because CA could go cheap on them chosing a "middle ground" that's supposed to make everyone happy but instead don't satisfy anyone (like rn sieges). Hell, CA could even make sieges 3 times better, but that still won't make them good for one big thing that rn sieges lack: the advantage the defender have over the attacker.

And i don't see any other way of doing it besides making specific maps for each race (since each race has a different roster) such that the strength of that race get amplified and the weakness covered.
Which is not something easy: it takes a lot of time coming up with good ideas for each faction, and even more for implementing them, and CA more than one time decided to cut development cost making therefore their product inferior (Malus, Markus, Sisters...).

I seriously hope it won't happen, but the new races might give the devs the idea that they have "done enough", and deliver a siege rework that's just an additional wall line behind the first.

Comments

  • angry_rat_loverangry_rat_lover Registered Users Posts: 1,458
    I want banners
    Soon
  • Surge_2#1464Surge_2#1464 Registered Users Posts: 11,960
    Yes, how much of the fundamentally flawed mechanics in the game are going to be fixed.

    My interest level is dropping by the day.
    Kneel

  • 55JoNNo55JoNNo Registered Users Posts: 2,378
    CA have gone with 2 human nations renowned for their ability to defend their cities against hordes of Chaos.

    Wording on the steam page:

    "On the border between the worlds, two mighty kingdoms stand sentinel"

    My hopes are that they picked them because a big siege rework makes sense for these two as poster boys. Don't forget that with Cathay we will have the Great Bastion on the map... This could be the greatest siege map in the game so you have to trust they are totally aware of that potential.

    Bohemond for game 3 please!

  • Witch_King#3646Witch_King#3646 Registered Users Posts: 142
    In my opinion the issue with sieges is not the map design, it is the AI behaviour.
    If CA gives us 360 degrees sieges with the current AI trying to stop us there would be no improvement at all, we will just cheese every single battle as we do today.

    Developing a good AI in a game full of different and fast-changing situations is a challenge, it's much easier to give it cheats than making it smarter or more reactive on the battlefield.

    I really hope Warhammer 3 will have a better AI as in a single player game it really matters to have competent virtual rivals.

  • saweendra#3399saweendra#3399 Registered Users Posts: 19,598

    I want banners

    Yes by ze lady yes

    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc


  • Slayer_Yannir#8069Slayer_Yannir#8069 Registered Users Posts: 2,720

    I want banners

    Use mods. A simple visual change like this shouldn't be a dev priority.
    Formerly known as Yannir. Oaths have been taken.
  • Neodeinos#5871Neodeinos#5871 Registered Users Posts: 16,129
    Yannir said:

    I want banners

    Use mods. A simple visual change like this shouldn't be a dev priority.
    Except that it's incredible hard and time consuming to properly animate banners for the modders.
  • angry_rat_loverangry_rat_lover Registered Users Posts: 1,458
    Yannir said:

    I want banners

    Use mods. A simple visual change like this shouldn't be a dev priority.
    Its not a simple change at all, if it was a simple change there would have been banners at day 1, there is like, 1 mod that adds banners and even then they are not animated and only for like, 3 factions, its a task that seems simple but its complicated, only CA can do it, it shouldnt be the modders job to make the game look pretty.

    Banners are a standard of both Total War and Warhammer.
    Soon
  • capybarasiesta89#4722capybarasiesta89#4722 Senior Member Bath, UKRegistered Users Posts: 5,463

    I want banners

    Banners and rework of WH1 Races no more waiting for Old World update with each DLC.
    h1feizw8yzk6.jpg
  • Musculus_IVMusculus_IV Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 339
    Sieges are literally the most important issue in TWW atm, much more important than any dlc/minor faction speculations. Sieges are supposed to be the most epic and cinematic battles in TW especially in Warhammer but instead they are trash.

    They have to design better siege maps for WH3:
    Interesting and diverse city layouts that actually feel different between factions, larger maps that allow for epic 3v3 sieges, walls that actually do something, more siege equipment (like siege artillery) for the attackers, 360° maps that allow for multiple strategic approaches (exept Karaks maybe), maps with multiple layers of defense etc etc..

    Basically something like we had in Rome2/Attila. The only improvement in WH sieges are the wider streets.

    No more pocket ladders, copy-paste and one dimensional map layouts, useless walls, Karaks that are not even slightly harder to attack than any random city...

    Imo if they dont get sieges right there's almost no point in buying WH3. What good are all the new factions/dlc if every second battle in your campaign just feels lame and trashy because of bad siege map design
  • Musculus_IVMusculus_IV Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 339

    I want banners

    I would absolutely buy a "unit captains, standard bearers and musicians" dlc! It's in the table top as well we need it in TWW! Please!

  • Surge_2#1464Surge_2#1464 Registered Users Posts: 11,960

    Sieges are literally the most important issue in TWW atm, much more important than any dlc/minor faction speculations. Sieges are supposed to be the most epic and cinematic battles in TW especially in Warhammer but instead they are trash.

    They have to design better siege maps for WH3:
    Interesting and diverse city layouts that actually feel different between factions, larger maps that allow for epic 3v3 sieges, walls that actually do something, more siege equipment (like siege artillery) for the attackers, 360° maps that allow for multiple strategic approaches (exept Karaks maybe), maps with multiple layers of defense etc etc..

    Basically something like we had in Rome2/Attila. The only improvement in WH sieges are the wider streets.

    No more pocket ladders, copy-paste and one dimensional map layouts, useless walls, Karaks that are not even slightly harder to attack than any random city...

    Imo if they dont get sieges right there's almost no point in buying WH3. What good are all the new factions/dlc if every second battle in your campaign just feels lame and trashy because of bad siege map design

    I disagree. I f'n hate sieges, its the most tedious type of battle one can play through. Attacking or Defending. Its terrible, its time consuming, there's annoying pathing issues.

    Its completely the opposite of what I play the game for.
    Kneel

  • elkappelkapp Registered Users Posts: 1,237
    Surge_2 said:

    Sieges are literally the most important issue in TWW atm, much more important than any dlc/minor faction speculations. Sieges are supposed to be the most epic and cinematic battles in TW especially in Warhammer but instead they are trash.

    They have to design better siege maps for WH3:
    Interesting and diverse city layouts that actually feel different between factions, larger maps that allow for epic 3v3 sieges, walls that actually do something, more siege equipment (like siege artillery) for the attackers, 360° maps that allow for multiple strategic approaches (exept Karaks maybe), maps with multiple layers of defense etc etc..

    Basically something like we had in Rome2/Attila. The only improvement in WH sieges are the wider streets.

    No more pocket ladders, copy-paste and one dimensional map layouts, useless walls, Karaks that are not even slightly harder to attack than any random city...

    Imo if they dont get sieges right there's almost no point in buying WH3. What good are all the new factions/dlc if every second battle in your campaign just feels lame and trashy because of bad siege map design

    I disagree. I f'n hate sieges, its the most tedious type of battle one can play through. Attacking or Defending. Its terrible, its time consuming, there's annoying pathing issues.

    Its completely the opposite of what I play the game for.
    That's the point: sieges don't work the way they are supposed to, and you have to fight a lot of them. So they must be fixed (properly).
  • Eliak_The_Rat_MercEliak_The_Rat_Merc Registered Users Posts: 702
    I wish that CA gave us deployables back
  • KixionKixion UKRegistered Users Posts: 141
    elkapp said:



    That's the point: sieges don't work the way they are supposed to, and you have to fight a lot of them. So they must be fixed (properly).

    Agreed. It's precisely because sieges are kind of awful, unless you are one of a handful of races, that the rework on them is so important.
  • Bonutz#3949Bonutz#3949 Registered Users Posts: 5,766
    Yeah. I really have high expectations for the sieges. They've been crap for so long that CA needs to address them in a BIG way. Especially since sieges are a majority of the battles you fight in this game.

    - Multiple layers of walls
    - 360 degree siege maps
    - bridges and river crossings in settlements
    - More siege weapons
    - artillery on the walls
    - deployables such as stakes, magical traps, spike pits etc
    - ethereal units should be able to go through walls, spiders should be able to climb walls
    - fighting 3 different siege battles in order to take a Dwarven karak - each one taking place further and further into the Karak.

    There are just so many possibilities.
    I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass...and I’m all out of bubblegum.
  • #1609#1609 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 3,547
    Could solution: CA add a standard bearer with an animation with a kind of placeholder texture, just one standard prop for each race.
    And let modder waste time adding textures for each faction, or regimental flag or whatever
  • Musculus_IVMusculus_IV Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 339
    Bonutz said:

    Yeah. I really have high expectations for the sieges. They've been crap for so long that CA needs to address them in a BIG way. Especially since sieges are a majority of the battles you fight in this game.

    - Multiple layers of walls
    - 360 degree siege maps
    - bridges and river crossings in settlements
    - More siege weapons
    - artillery on the walls
    - deployables such as stakes, magical traps, spike pits etc
    - ethereal units should be able to go through walls, spiders should be able to climb walls
    - fighting 3 different siege battles in order to take a Dwarven karak - each one taking place further and further into the Karak.

    There are just so many possibilities.

    Lets not forget the barricades you could deploy in Attila
  • Musculus_IVMusculus_IV Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 339

    Bonutz said:

    Yeah. I really have high expectations for the sieges. They've been crap for so long that CA needs to address them in a BIG way. Especially since sieges are a majority of the battles you fight in this game.

    - Multiple layers of walls
    - 360 degree siege maps
    - bridges and river crossings in settlements
    - More siege weapons
    - artillery on the walls
    - deployables such as stakes, magical traps, spike pits etc
    - ethereal units should be able to go through walls, spiders should be able to climb walls
    - fighting 3 different siege battles in order to take a Dwarven karak - each one taking place further and further into the Karak.

    There are just so many possibilities.

    Lets not forget the barricades you could deploy in Attila.

    And I always liked the idea for multi-stage sieges! Maybe not for every Karak but for the major ones and maybe the major city of each race.
  • y4g3r#8736y4g3r#8736 Registered Users Posts: 672
    Dogs of War! Dogs of War!

    Literally no cooler character than Borgio the Besieger.
  • Maedrethnir#1968Maedrethnir#1968 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 17,383
    I too hope that it won't happen. I expect and demand rich, cinematic siege maps custom-tailored to races themes.
  • LennoxPoodleLennoxPoodle Registered Users Posts: 1,684
    There are several ways to improve them.
    The easiest I could come up with is units throwing rocks down at those climbing ladders(projectiles) and pouring tar/pitch/boiling water/rats/snakes/nurgle goo/whatever down at gate attackers(aoe). At least those things would make attacking without siege equipment more punishing and increase the defenders advantage.
    But I agree with pretty much everyone in this thread that more needs to be done. Varied layouts are a must. Additional defensive features like second layers, wall sections sticking out to offer positions for shooting attackers in the flanks, positions for artillery, forward bastions for more harrasment and retreat during the approach and moats that either slow down or need to be filled in before being crossed.
    Racial layouts would ofc be ideal.
    -The Empire could have (deployable) barricades in the streets, representing their relatively large population helping out in the defense.
    -The lizardmen could have pyramid steps instead of actual walls, with the area behind the "wall" being the same height as the battlements allowing dino artillery to just walk up to them (obviously destroyed "wall" sections would have to crumble into ramps of rubble leading up into the city).
    -Dark Elves might have multiple strongpoints featuring smaller towers and defensible positions, on account of their homes often being small castles in their own right, thanks to the constant feuds.
    -Brettonia could have those moats and smaller walled in area at the center of the defenders edge of the map with most houses being outside, representing their use of castles into which the populace retreats over walled towns and featuring less wall length to defend. Those houses outside the castle could even offer LoS blockers to hide cavalry sorties.
    -Most special should ofc be the Dwarfs. If the devs go for the lower effort, they could just combine a siege and chokepoint map. But wouldn't it be cool If they went the extra mile and found a way to make the outer part the actual outside (the walls) and the inner one (inside the walls) a network of tunnels. The wall itself would then be the actual rockface of the mountain with battlements that could be reached through smaller access tunnels carved into it (permitting artillery peaces to be moved up). Thus you could only make those battlements inaccesible (and thus isolate segments!!!) with artillery not punch holes into the defense. To get in you'd either have to go through the gates or take the battlements (with siege towers or ladders) and fight your way down the access corridors.
    Obviously unique wall climbing methods for things like ethereals, spiders and others would be really nice.
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