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On VH/VH Skaven still OP, please nerf.

adjung#7086adjung#7086 Registered Users Posts: 359
Alternatively, buff Empire.

Thanks.


Forward onto Slaughter.
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Comments

  • TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001
    While I agree that Skaven are busted, would it hurt to be actually specific about what you'd like to change about them?
  • adjung#7086adjung#7086 Registered Users Posts: 359

    While I agree that Skaven are busted, would it hurt to be actually specific about what you'd like to change about them?

    Okay

    Skaven ability to ambush on the attack while ALSO getting multiple reinforcing armies (CHOSE ONE!)
    Autoresolve is wildly in favour of Skaven
    chieftains seem too strong
    "Top tier" Empire infantry, cavalry and artillery are no match for Skaven, and neither is any combination of the former except maybe hero + tank spam, which makes for a really dull campaign



    Forward onto Slaughter.
  • GettoGecko#7861GettoGecko#7861 Registered Users Posts: 1,684
    As some fellow ratman-skaven would say, empire-manthings are just a myth-lie. Can't-won't buff things that don't exist.
    Rats of the Rat God. Warpstone for the Warpstone Throne.
  • TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001
    adjung said:

    While I agree that Skaven are busted, would it hurt to be actually specific about what you'd like to change about them?

    Okay

    Skaven ability to ambush on the attack while ALSO getting multiple reinforcing armies (CHOSE ONE!)
    Autoresolve is wildly in favour of Skaven
    chieftains seem too strong
    "Top tier" Empire infantry, cavalry and artillery are no match for Skaven, and neither is any combination of the former except maybe hero + tank spam, which makes for a really dull campaign

    Attack ambush is obnoxious, especially when you can buff success chance high enough to get it every single time. I suggested to have it only work in heavily Skaven infested territory and then it being a pure 1v1.

    Autoresolve only favors Skaven when they load up on ranged spam, but that's because ranged units are massively overrated by the game as a whole.
  • KixionKixion UKRegistered Users Posts: 141
    Empire don't need a buff, they are fine as they are.

    Skaven though need tweaking. They were given some fairly horrific mechanics because upon release their armies stand up power was definitely lacking from what I remember. However this has since been buffed massively and yet their have retained their mechanics to give them extra advantages.

    There are two ways to fix this as I see it. One is to flat out nerf them, which okay, maybe, but as a rule if you don't have to take someone away from someone you probably shouldn't.

    Another way would be to create a work around for other races. Like, for example, making sure every race has access to ambush defense chance and specifically making it more effective against ambush attacks. I also feel like you can't really ambush an army in camp mode. At the very least this should carry a massive success chance penalty to try.

    As for the plague's that mean "just don't play the game for 6 turns" yeah, as fun as sitting idle in a city or ambush mode is, I'd rather actually play the game, so if this could be made to do something else that would be great.
  • GettoGecko#7861GettoGecko#7861 Registered Users Posts: 1,684
    adjung said:

    While I agree that Skaven are busted, would it hurt to be actually specific about what you'd like to change about them?

    Okay

    Skaven ability to ambush on the attack while ALSO getting multiple reinforcing armies (CHOSE ONE!)
    Autoresolve is wildly in favour of Skaven
    chieftains seem too strong
    "Top tier" Empire infantry, cavalry and artillery are no match for Skaven, and neither is any combination of the former except maybe hero + tank spam, which makes for a really dull campaign

    Empire units aren't bad, but sure with skaven now having more versatility than the empire your chances are higher that you will end up against an unfavorable match up.
    I normally avoid to fight skaven if I can because of their offensive ambush but its part of what makes them skaven, is it annoying as F yes, is it unbeatable no.
  • Seswatha#7633Seswatha#7633 Registered Users Posts: 4,822
    If you're having trouble with Skaven ambush or plagues this is at least understandable as only Skaven AI has these tools, although it's still possible to play around it and I would ask for more stuff like this for all AIs.

    If you're having trouble with Skaven armies though, you need to do better, Empire has a decent MU vs Skaven in MP and all the tools to beat them.

  • GettoGecko#7861GettoGecko#7861 Registered Users Posts: 1,684
    Kixion said:

    They were given some fairly horrific mechanics because upon release their armies stand up power was definitely lacking from what I remember.

    Thats the understatement of the year. The where the BM of vanilla and got wiped out constantly on the Vortex Map without participating in the race. On the battlefield only the catapult and globadiers where able to threaten other units and skaven were vulnerable to basically every type of attack and tactic.
  • Nazjax#2857Nazjax#2857 Registered Users Posts: 2,557
    adjung said:

    Alternatively, buff Empire.

    Thanks.

    If you are not enough good to deal with the cheats of the AI cause Skaven AI is boosted, just play in lower difficulties...

    No sence to ask for a nerf when you can manage it by yourself. At least do that for battle only...
  • KlausTheKat#4888KlausTheKat#4888 Registered Users Posts: 596
    edited February 2021
    Kixion said:

    Skaven though need tweaking. They were given some fairly horrific mechanics because upon release their armies stand up power was definitely lacking from what I remember. However this has since been buffed massively and yet their have retained their mechanics to give them extra advantages.

    With regard to the whole "they have been buffed significantly since their original implementation". Yes, they have, but only for the AI or DLC owners. As you say, the vanilla rat experience was in need of a crutch to help it along, but if you remove that crutch, what about a fresh newbie who has just bought Game 2 but no DLC? Are they just expected to P2W if they want to play Skaven? Kinda feels scummy to be honest.

    This is an issue of CA's own making in how they walled off many of the more powerful and iconic Skaven units behind DLC and then had to prop up what was left of the race with OP mechanics to make them viable.

    I absolutely agree that they need a tweak, I rather like SA's suggestion of the mechanic requiring owned territory/high corruption/presence of an Undercity etc. Other options could be to restrict it to Eshin only (feels slightly more Loreful, but again, does nothing for vanilla players) or my own suggestion below..

    Having given this important matter all of about 2 minutes thought, here is my solution. Make the army composition matter in determining ambush on attack success chance. Arty? Big fat malus to success chance. Weapons teams? Hefty malus to to success chance. Large units? Malus. Melee infantry, no malus no bonus. Slingers/stalkers/Assassin Lord/wolf rats etc.. bonus to success chance. (also, no reinforcements for everyone or reinforcements for everyone. One or the other.)

    You want to ambush every time you attack? You build an ambush army.

    Please note that I would keep standard defensive ambush as it is, this is only in regard to offensive ambushes.
  • KixionKixion UKRegistered Users Posts: 141



    With regard to the whole "they have been buffed significantly since their original implementation". Yes, they have, but only for the AI or DLC owners. As you say, the vanilla rat experience was in need of a crutch to help it along, but if you remove that crutch, what about a fresh newbie who has just bought Game 2 but no DLC? Are they just expected to P2W if they want to play Skaven? Kinda feels scummy to be honest.

    This is an issue of CA's own making in how they walled off many of the more powerful and iconic Skaven units behind DLC and then had to prop up what was left of the race with OP mechanics to make them viable.

    I absolutely agree that they need a tweak, I rather like SA's suggestion of the mechanic requiring owned territory/high corruption/presence of an Undercity etc. Other options could be to restrict it to Eshin only (feels slightly more Loreful, but again, does nothing for vanilla players) or my own suggestion below..

    Having given this important matter all of about 2 minutes thought, here is my solution. Make the army composition matter in determining ambush on attack success chance. Arty? Big fat malus to success chance. Weapons teams? Hefty malus to to success chance. Large units? Malus. Melee infantry, no malus no bonus. Slingers/stalkers/Assassin Lord/wolf rats etc.. bonus to success chance. (also, no reinforcements for everyone or reinforcements for everyone. One or the other.)

    You want to ambush every time you attack? You build an ambush army.

    Please note that I would keep standard defensive ambush as it is, this is only in regard to offensive ambushes.

    But by the same token it's P2W anyway right? If we are saying that they are balanced without the DLC's then by definition they are imbalanced with them. So, while I take your point, this is the reality of their current situation regardless of if we least it as it is or tweak it to be conversely true. Still, I agree with your sentiment, there's no good solution available, it's just take your pick out of a selection of bad ones.

    The reason I think it's better to balance them around the DLC though is simply because that is what the AI are equipped with. So it's a question of balancing them in 100% of all games, or balancing them around the number of players who play Skaven, without the DLC. Which is, what? generously 5% ? I feel like the only answer is to balance them around the DLC.

    I like the idea for your ambush attacks, it would be very flavourful and appropriate, but I'm not sure it's entirely realistic given how much work a chance like that would involve. You would have to change the base code of every unit to include a value to contribute toward ambush success chance, which I wonder if it isn't asking too much.
  • KlausTheKat#4888KlausTheKat#4888 Registered Users Posts: 596
    edited February 2021
    Kixion said:


    But by the same token it's P2W anyway right? If we are saying that they are balanced without the DLC's then by definition they are imbalanced with them. So, while I take your point, this is the reality of their current situation regardless of if we least it as it is or tweak it to be conversely true. Still, I agree with your sentiment, there's no good solution available, it's just take your pick out of a selection of bad ones.

    Most DLC stuff is P2W to a certain extent due to the glut of OP mechanics lavished upon them. However I would say that nerfing vanilla Skaven makes the DLC Pay2Play rather than Pay2Win. I already often see newbie posts along the lines "Help me understand this faction" or "I fail miserably with Skaven, their troops are crap" so whilst veterans (and those that own all the DLC) are complaining about how easy mode they are, there are still plenty that struggle. Before someone chimes in with some "git gud" or whatever.. I'll say that I do perfectly well with Skaven using non cheesy army comps and house rules thankyouverymuch. I'm trying to see the faction through the eyes of someone who doesn't have over 4k hours in the game haha.
    Kixion said:

    The reason I think it's better to balance them around the DLC though is simply because that is what the AI are equipped with. So it's a question of balancing them in 100% of all games, or balancing them around the number of players who play Skaven, without the DLC. Which is, what? generously 5% ? I feel like the only answer is to balance them around the DLC.

    This is why I tried to come up with a solution that nerfs their (predominantly DLC) OP units being present in ambushes. If we were getting ambushed by a 15 stack of Skaven Slaves and slingers and 4 units of Stormvermin I doubt we'd see so much pushback against the mechanic. However getting ambushed by poison wind mortars and plagueclaws with a frontline of warpgrinders locking you in place is about as much fun as reading yet another elf post on these forums.
    Kixion said:

    I like the idea for your ambush attacks, it would be very flavourful and appropriate, but I'm not sure it's entirely realistic given how much work a chance like that would involve.

    Well, it would only apply to, what? One race and one faction. Skaven and Alith Anar. I know Beastmen have a version of Ambush on Attack too but the poor sods need every scrap of help they can get. As I said, this would not affect defensive ambushes in any way so wouldn't in any way be applicable to the vast majority of factions/races.
    Kixion said:

    You would have to change the base code of every unit to include a value to contribute toward ambush success chance, which I wonder if it isn't asking too much.

    I believe this code adjustment already exists ingame for Kholek for example. I am definitely not a dev so excuse any ignorance with regard to how easy this would be to implement.



  • Slayer_Yannir#8069Slayer_Yannir#8069 Registered Users Posts: 2,645
    I actually think the Empire gets a massive undeserved boost in the Autoresolver. Atleast against factions like Chaos, Counts and Norsca.
    Formerly known as Yannir. Oaths have been taken.
  • KixionKixion UKRegistered Users Posts: 141
    @KlausTheKat


    That’s fair. Well, then the only solution that makes sense to me is to release the units from DLC out from behind the pay wall. Keep the LL’s and those campaigns but if the faction literally doesn’t work without them, they you might as well not include Skaven in the TWW2 game itself.

    I get it, but I’d never said ‘git gud’ unless the conversation was hinged on it being done on a high difficulty, then and only then is the onus on the player. To play a game with a flexible difficulty setting the default answer should never be ‘git gut’, that would just be proof that the game is broken. As least as far as I see it.


    Well I’m no programmer either, I took a course in college, years ago, so for all I know everything I thought I knew is all totally wrong now.
    I’ll just say that if it could be done, then this is the best solution I’ve heard to this problem by a mile. It would actually be very flavourful to have units that could do this and others that couldn’t. It would even be an interesting way of balancing things in the campaign.
  • KlausTheKat#4888KlausTheKat#4888 Registered Users Posts: 596
    I wouldn't go so far as to say the faction does not work without the DLC units, I personally really enjoyed playing a full Pestilens theme campaign which is perfectly doable with just the Vanilla roster. But from the majority of posts i've seen here and on reddit, whenever anyone asks for help/advice with a Skaven campaign the first response is almost always "do you have P&W? If not, get it." So yeah, I think that particular piece of content is pretty much mandatory in most Skaven players minds.

    Whether paywalling such powerful units was a good decision on CA's part is a debate for another day haha. It does seem that the overall race's powercreep stemming from a singular DLC's content is the culprit here though. Even Sisters of Avelorn don't supercharge their respective race to such an extent. Powerful as they are, HE are plenty strong even without them. Not sure the same can be said for Vanilla ratties.

    Hopefully at some point CA are gonna roll out GOTY versions and we can all work from the same page.
  • HarconnHarconn Registered Users Posts: 943
    Skaven really are op. They have some of the best units in game, especially best ranged and artillery. But they should inost cases be cheap armies which overruns enemies by their replaceable masses. Not by their quality. Also ambush mechanic is more than broken.

    I love skaven, but they really are too strong.
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  • panda_express12panda_express12 Member Registered Users Posts: 335
    Skaven is pretty busted. It was understandable that they needed some boosts when WH2 came out because they were hot garbage back then, but nowadays they have pretty much no weaknesses in their roster while retaining their very powerful campaign mechanics such as ambush attack.
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  • jamesbluewavejamesbluewave Registered Users Posts: 531
    Yea they probably don’t need the ambush stance anymore. It just makes going through skaven territory incredibly tedious. And even when playing as the player, you turn every battle in2 dday with weapons teams and your armies are able to fight at top strength multiple battles in quick succession.

    Imo a general change that should occur is that armies should fight worse after fighting a battle that turn and missiles shouldn’t be replenishing to full after every battle, but instead after every turn .

    When it comes to skaven in particular, stalk should probably just be deleted, it’s not fun to use or go up against. Or it’s number should go way down, having base chance be 5% but depending on skills and level of corruption it can go higher.
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