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Are there still missing high elves, dark elves or wood elves units or are their roasters complete?

Ulthuan_VolcanoUlthuan_Volcano Registered Users Posts: 299
Since the Twisted and Twilight DLC all three elf races have a decent roaster and are fun to play, but are there still missing units from the lore or do they have everything like Norsca?
http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/ Ulthuan, Home of the Asur. If any high elf player is in the hobby too I would suggest you to check this forum.
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  • veresh1989veresh1989 Russia, Saint-PetersburgRegistered Users Posts: 4,451

    Since the Twisted and Twilight DLC all three elf races have a decent roaster and are fun to play, but are there still missing units from the lore or do they have everything like Norsca?

    Their compositions are formed by 50%
  • MaelasMaelas Registered Users Posts: 4,821
    High Elves are still missing the Skycutter ! It's a flying bolt-thrower!

    Dark Elves and Wood Elves are all complete tho !
    I believe in Slaanesh supremacy
  • saweendrasaweendra Registered Users Posts: 14,763
    edited February 14
    HE from army book alone.
    Lord anointed of Asuryan
    Hero Sea helm
    Unit sky cutter two variations
    Other two army books are complete kind of though wood elves are missing moon fire arrows
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc
  • BiesBies Junior Member SwedenRegistered Users Posts: 4,082
    dark elves are missing black ark fleetmaster

    "I shivered at the sight of her - her beauty far beyond that of mortal man. But her soul glowed with an inner darkness that chilled my very core."









  • MaedrethnirMaedrethnir Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 13,032
    saweendra said:

    HE from army book alone.
    Lord anointed of Asuryan
    Hero Sea helm
    Unit sky cutter two variations
    Other two army books are complete kind of though wood elves are missing moon fire arrows

    And Dragon Mages too are mising from Army Book.

  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 10,966
    edited February 14
    Kinda depends on your definition of 'complete'.

    From the 8E army book:

    Dark Elves are missing Black Ark Fleetmasters. Would most likely be an anti-infantry footlord. Basically a generic version of Lokhir without the dragon (although, since Lokhir got the dragon...), and might well be FLC to give Black Arks a unique lord rather than using Dreadlords like they currently do.

    Wood Elves are mostly missing the Shadowdancer hero, although that's been merged into the Branchwraith. On tabletop, Wood Elves had two "fighter mage" type heroes - the Shadowdancer was a Wardancer hero using the Lore of Shadows, and the Branchwraith just used the Lore of Life (with the exception of Drycha). TWW Branchwraiths having a mixed list seems to have been an effort to combine them. Wood Elves are also missing a few arrow options (in the army book, most of their archers had six arrow options, although some of them were things like "this arrow option has increased effect against Order races while this other arrow option has the same effect against Destruction races".)

    High Elves are missing the most from their army book - Skycutters (flying boats pulled by Swiftfeather Rocs which are totally not the same as Great Eagles despite having basically the same model on the tabletop - each could carry a trio of Lothern Seaguard, or a pair of them with a short-range bolt thrower), the Annointed of Asuryan (a Phoenix Guard Lord, more oriented towards defence and buffing units than the Prince, and with phoenix mount options) and the Lothern Seahelm (a Lothern Seaguard hero, with the option to take the aforementioned Skycutter as a mount). Dragon Mages are technically missing, but the Fire Mage with Sun Dragon essentially reproduces one possible form of Dragon Mages (but it is worth noting that on the tabletop, Dragon Mages could wear armour, while the current Fire Mages do not).

    Outside of the army books, I'm a little less able to run off the top of my head, but:

    Dark Elf additional material includes additional War Hydra variants. There was a variant list that was basically a Dark Elf Slaanesh cult, but I don't expect to see that incorporated into the Dark Elf list (maybe the Slaanesh list). Animated statues are mentioned in fluff, but never had rules until AoS. Manticore Lords get mentioned coming from the old Man-o-War game - would basically be Manticores with riders and the ability to drop bombs. People bring up Sea Dragons and Magma Dragons, but I don't expect that GW would let those ideas through: Sea Dragons are explicitly stated as being too big to leave the ocean (bringing one to a land battle would be like bringing a blue whale to a land battle - an impressive feat, but it isn't going to achieve much) and Magma Dragons just live nearby, there's no evidence that the Dark Elves have succeeded in taming them outside of the use of Binding Scrolls (which are essentially a deus ex machina and not something you'd expect to see as standard practice). Pagowyrms also get mentioned, again primarily due to proximity - this one I could see being approved just for the sake of giving Dark Elves more see monsters, but in the existing fluff, despite the tendency of the Dark Elves to bend sea monsters to their will, there's no evidence they've done so with anything in the merwyrm lineage. People also raise Mengil's Manflayers - I'm personally not sure what they'd achieve above being a Shade RoR, but Bugmans' Rangers exist in the dwarf roster, and I might be forgetting something.

    Wood Elves have some older edition stuff that was discontinued, and possibly retconned. Melee focused Warhawks used to be a thing, and if you go back to 4E they had chariots. There are also references to Wood Elves able to shapechange into animal forms, and Wood Elf beastmasters able to control packs of beasts (although the last reference to the latter was, I think, in 4E.)

    The main source for additional High Elf material is the Sea Patrol list, which represented a naval force led by Sealord Aislinn. Most of the units there were essentially renames of existing High Elf units, like Sea Rangers which used Shadow Warrior rules. There was the Ship's Company, which essentially represented soldiers that weren't fully equipped Lothern Seaguard - most variants would match existing Spearmen and Archers, but there is the potential for sword and shield Ship's Company and sword, shield, and bow Ship's Company. (Speaking of which, older editions also had Shadow Warriors with shields.) The standout of the Sea Patrol list, though, was Merwyrms, which you might know from Amanar, although most merwyrms aren't that big (but still big enough to be a solid single-entity monster). Personally, I'm not convinced that the merwyrm really fits the High Elf army theme of having lots of flying monsters but a fairly conventional land army, but it wouldn't be the first time a racial limitation has been overcome in TWW. The Sea Patrol list also had a couple of unique spells, but I'm not convinced that they're worth making a new lore out of. Maybe if Sealord Aislinn is the LL, one of his faction effects could be to grant those spells as bound spells to Mages and Archmages that are part of his faction.

    There might be stuff I've forgotten from the stuff that isn't in the army book, but this is what I came up with off the top of my head.
  • MiniaArMiniaAr Registered Users Posts: 1,282
    Not a lot much to add to @Draxynnic
    For the Merwynn on High elves army, one solution would be to have them recruited via rites, like Slaans do, for Aislinn factions and AI overseas HE factions (Citadel of Dusk, Fortress of Dawn,...). But "mainland" HE factions should indeed not really be able to recruit them.

    I think a sea based LP is coming for HE in game 3 against a Deamon faction (or maybe in a curve ball against an evil Cathay faction), with Sea Helm hero, Lothern skycutter (2 variants), ships company and Merwynns (with some kind of limited recruitment, either rites like Slaan or buildings like Dread Saurian).

    Shadow Dancer Hero is indeed missing for WE and I don't see why CA omitted them, they would have had a full lore of shadow and access to the three dances in the game. Unicorn Herds could be an option, after all they were in Storm of magic like Zoats and Great Stags, and we got those.

    Dark elves really only are missing a special Fleemaster lord and some named characters. They're pretty complete otherwise. Cult of Slaanesh dark elves I expect will come in game 3 for the Hordes of Slaanesh race (Dechala Lord pack?)
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 10,966
    edited February 14
    I've generally thought that the appropriate way to do the Merwyrm would be as an exclusive to the Sea Patrol faction. Exclusives for individual factions seem to be a trait of the High Elves (forest spirits for Alarielle, Shadow-walkers for Alith Anar, Mistwalkers for Eltharion, and Imrik's unique dragons), so the final LL getting Merwyrms as a unique unit would fit the trend. You can have them... but you have to give up on the special features of the other High Elf factions to get them, and in single battle you give up legendary lord options.

    Problem is that if CA was to go to the effort of fully animating it, they'd probably want it to be available to more than one faction.

    (Oh, yeah, I'd forgotten the unicorn herds. Knew I was forgetting something. Probably will never happen because certain members of the fanbase are too insecure in their masculinity to accept something normally associated with girliness in their hobby unless it's paired with eye candy. Never mind that originally the unicorn was itself a symbol of raw, untamed masculinity - something that only really started to change when horses stopped being an animal that men used for war, work and travel and horseriding started becoming a female-dominated hobby.)

  • saweendrasaweendra Registered Users Posts: 14,763
    Draxynnic said:

    I've generally thought that the appropriate way to do the Merwyrm would be as an exclusive to the Sea Patrol faction. Exclusives for individual factions seem to be a trait of the High Elves (forest spirits for Alarielle, Shadow-walkers for Alith Anar, Mistwalkers for Eltharion, and Imrik's unique dragons), so the final LL getting Merwyrms as a unique unit would fit the trend. You can have them... but you have to give up on the special features of the other High Elf factions to get them, and in single battle you give up legendary lord options.

    Problem is that if CA was to go to the effort of fully animating it, they'd probably want it to be available to more than one faction.

    I think Merwyrm is animated and fully functional at least thats what YouTubers like LoS say after he talk with dev.

    According to him the only reason amanar is not playble is it was too big to work properly in game.

    But a smaller one definitely can be put on a future HE dlc regardless of the lord, since assets are already in game
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc
  • ValkaarValkaar Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 3,876
    edited February 14

    Since the Twisted and Twilight DLC all three elf races have a decent roaster and are fun to play, but are there still missing units from the lore or do they have everything like Norsca?

    Norsca was never an armybook. They had some loose material referenced, but they were "armybook complete" before their DLC ever launched, since they were never playable in the first place.

    ^^This is where the distinction between 'armybook complete' and COMPLETE becomes rather important. Because while Norsca is WAY more than armybook complete.....there's still tons of stuff they could add to Norsca that could be fun.

    Loremaster of Sotek mentioned there are lore blurbs about "Fimir Matriarchs" which are large single-entity Fimir that could be added to the roster. Surtha Ek could be a fun easter egg addition. Some forum threads have cropped up suggestion that Kurgan or Hung units be added to Norsca, and that the Kurgan/Hung be made into playable sub-factions for Norsca, so that they have 4 playable LL instead of just two.

    So yeah, a race is NEVER complete, in that there's always stuff that could be made up, or obscure lore that could justify a unit even if it was never in the armybook. Norsca, despite being 'complete', actually has a lot of room to grow if CA ever decides to do a crossover lord pack with them.

    On the flip side:

    The Dark Elves: They technically are NOT armybook complete. Unlike Norsca. But there is WAY LESS that could actually be added to them that would actually diversify or strengthen their roster without making it OP.

    Most of their additions....armybook or otherwise...like the Shrines of Khaine....are incredibly niche and don't really fill in distinct, missing tactical roles that the Dark Elves don't already have solid tools for. The Dark Elves currently are a pretty well rounded, jack of all trades faction. Most major unit additions they did add would simply make another aspect of their roster redundant/obsolete...like the Bladesingers did for the Wood Elves or the Bloodline Strigoi Lords did for the Ghoul Kings within the Count's roster. Or Dark Elf additions...in an attempt to create a 'role' for themselves that didn't step on on any other unit's toes....would just fill an INTENTIONAL weakness of the Dark Elves...and it would just start to make them OP with no weaknesses at all.

    TL;DR: The metric of 'armybook completeness' has always seemed arbitrary, strange, and frankly, not very useful to me. "Complete" races can still have unique and useful things that could be made up and thrown in. "Incomplete" races could still be so chalk full of stuff that "completing" them wouldn't accomplish much besides satisfying armybook purists.

  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 10,966
    Valkaar said:


    TL;DR: The metric of 'armybook completeness' has always seemed arbitrary, strange, and frankly, not very useful to me. "Complete" races can still have unique and useful things that could be made up and thrown in. "Incomplete" races could still be so chalk full of stuff that "completing" them wouldn't accomplish much besides satisfying armybook purists.

    It's mostly a matter of 'this was the official material', compounded with an observation that every unit has its fans.

    Back in the day, though, I also had a category which I called "tactically complete" - which basically meant that everything that the race could do on the tabletop, they could also do in TWW, even if it wasn't quite the same unit that was doing it. Dark and Wood Elves are, I think, there. High Elves need the Skycutter to get there. (Annointed I'm not so sure about - I think it is possible to fill in its role by other means, but I think they'd certainly still be valuable to add).

    It does seem, however, that CA has at least been somewhat thinking along these lines - their explanation for leaving Giant Rats out of the Skaven roster, for instance, is that they would be too similar to Skavenslaves. (The irony is that with Packmasters now available, Giant Rats would have a distinguishing factor of counting as Moulder creations.)
  • lucibuislucibuis Registered Users Posts: 6,786
    Wood elves are missing lots of units, mainly from previous editions and monstrous aracanum

    - incarnate elemental of beasts
    - Venom dragon
    - Spites
    - Meadow chariot
    - Kinsmen
    - Shapeshifters
    - Animal packs (wild cats, boars, wolves)
    - Animal handler hero (also called beast master)
    - Arrow variants (trueflight, bodkin, moon fire)
    - Shadow dancer hero
    - Feral unicorns, Pegasi, gryphon

    Possible extras: naiads, kelpies, fairy dragon, emerald dragon (they exist in my super successful mod, get it), feral animals, champion units

    Lots of characters missing as well
    Ariel only, no fads allowed.

  • LordTorquemadoLordTorquemado Registered Users Posts: 1,999
    The Druchii have material for one more DLC, maybe even more. However, I think the DE will be complete with one more DLC and other races should have more priority on the future, because their races have more characters and need more attention to be well represented (Empire, Chaos, Skaven, Vampire Counts...).

    -Features and mechanics: Chosen of Khaine/religion, watchtowers with their unique settlements and battle maps, Black Ark siege map.
    -Legendary Lords: Kouran, Tullaris.
    -Legendary Heroes: Shadowblade.
    -Generic Lords: Fleetmaster, Hag Queen.
    -Heroes: Beastmaster hero, Saint of Har Ganeth (executioner hero), Disciple of Khaine (a Druchii version of the Warrior Priests of the Empire), Lords of Oblivion, The Endless.
    -Units: Statues of Khaine, Manticore Lords, The Endless, Lords of Oblivion (those two can be both heroes or units; however, I think they should come as heroes), city guard.
    Champion variants for existing units: Black Ark Reavers, Draich Masters, Brides of Khaine.
    Monsters: Basylisks, pagowyrm, speelthirster hydra, chimeraes.

    Personally, I would be happy with a DLC featuring Tullaris as LL, Shadowblade as LH, Hag Queens, Disciples of Khaine, Statues of Khaine and Draich Masters with the Chosen of Khaine mechanic (Tullaris becoming the Avatar of Khaine or letting Malekith/Tyrion becomes the Avatar after drawing the Widowmaker).
    FLC: Watchtowers, Fleetmasters, Black Ark siege maps and Kouran.

    That would be my favorite scenario, but I know that if the Beastmen come, they would have a lot of attention, so I won’t have too many expectations.
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