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Elder Races building tall?

LennoxPoodleLennoxPoodle Registered Users Posts: 1,250
With the "recent" Wood Elf campaign rework CA managed to implement a decent option for building tall (limited territory built up as much as possible instead of wide expansion), something rare in TW, though there was the fame victory in ToB. This got me thinking. Should and could something similar to this be done for all the Elder Races (all Elves plus Dwarfs and Lizardmen, maybe Tomb Kings)?
Ofc for this to work several aspects would have to be tweaked for the affected races.
First an foremost settlments need to be addressed. Buildings need to be both more expensive and Long term effective (mainly income and recruitment slots), with the cost-benefit balance shifted in favor of higher Tiers. Additionally a nerf to growth and much higher colonisation cost seem appropriate.
Expansion can be further discouraged by making the climate rules harsher for those factions. Increasing the unsuitable climate punishment and/or reducing the hospitable bioms to 1-2 should do the trick.
To offset the early game disadvantage coming with all of this a more built up start might become necessary.
Still, the above might lead to serious turtling. Although that's necessary to a degree (If loss of territory is more devestating defense needs to be stronger), the campaign will become really boring if dictated by it. So everyone needs a reason other than conquest to pick fights and means to reasonably wage war far away from their home base (like black arks for example). Some of those are already in, others would have to be introduced but all would be race specific. So I'll adress those in later posts, alongside inviting you guys to come up with cool solutions.

TL;DR: The idea here is to make Dwarfs, Elves and Lizardmen about building tall by making expansion more difficult for them whilst increasing the benefits of building up, alongside giving everyone individual reasons and means to attack others without conquering them.

So what so you guys think? Is the overall idea nonsense or valid? What do you guys about my proposed way to do it? And most importantly, how would you do it?

Comments

  • HondlisHondlis Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,246
    Well agree. And not only that. I would welcome different type of DLCs focused on campaign mechanics and options. New types of buildings, new ways how to win the campaign, etc...
  • Mogwai_ManMogwai_Man Registered Users Posts: 5,217
    Well we had a system that successfully curbed expansion via regional occupation but it got replaced with the climate system.
  • yolordmcswagyolordmcswag Registered Users Posts: 3,865

    Well we had a system that successfully curbed expansion via regional occupation but it got replaced with the climate system.

    The climate penalties should be much more harsh IMO, and certain races have been given too generous habitable climates. High elves should not treat Naggaroth as their homeland, Dark elves should not prosper in chaotic wastelands etc. Then races with poor economy like greenskins should accept most types of climate, to offset their poor economy.
  • veresh1989veresh1989 Russia, Saint-PetersburgRegistered Users Posts: 4,451
    I am definitely in favor of more active construction of buildings, on more cells.
  • GreenColouredGreenColoured Registered Users Posts: 4,153
    I see a couple of issues


    1) Why? Is there something currently wrong with HE, LM, and Dwarfs settlement?


    2) All three of these are order Factions. Nerfing them like this (and it is a nerf in the hands of the AI), will take the scale too far


    3) All three aren't doing too hot in ME anyways. If anything they should work to expand harder against chaos Factions
  • Daedalusx007Daedalusx007 Registered Users Posts: 277
    Total War is not a game designed well around playing Tall. That the Wood Elves can is unique.

    I think making climate more harsh is the exact wrong way to go. The climate system is fine, and slows players down enough.

    It's important to recognize that constraints on Sandbox like mortal Empires should be voluntary.

    If you want to mod your game to play tall go for it.

    Otherwise I think it's fine.
    The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong but those are the ways to bet.

    Dogs of War or bust!
  • veresh1989veresh1989 Russia, Saint-PetersburgRegistered Users Posts: 4,451

    I see a couple of issues


    1) Why? Is there something currently wrong with HE, LM, and Dwarfs settlement?


    2) All three of these are order Factions. Nerfing them like this (and it is a nerf in the hands of the AI), will take the scale too far


    3) All three aren't doing too hot in ME anyways. If anything they should work to expand harder against chaos Factions

    High elves have a very poor economy, in order to receive income, you have to sacrifice combat power.

  • Mogwai_ManMogwai_Man Registered Users Posts: 5,217

    Well we had a system that successfully curbed expansion via regional occupation but it got replaced with the climate system.

    The climate penalties should be much more harsh IMO, and certain races have been given too generous habitable climates. High elves should not treat Naggaroth as their homeland, Dark elves should not prosper in chaotic wastelands etc. Then races with poor economy like greenskins should accept most types of climate, to offset their poor economy.
    I agree, if we're going to have the climate system then it needs to matter more than it currently does.
  • Mr_Finley7Mr_Finley7 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 6,967

    I see a couple of issues


    1) Why? Is there something currently wrong with HE, LM, and Dwarfs settlement?


    2) All three of these are order Factions. Nerfing them like this (and it is a nerf in the hands of the AI), will take the scale too far


    3) All three aren't doing too hot in ME anyways. If anything they should work to expand harder against chaos Factions

    High elves have a very poor economy, in order to receive income, you have to sacrifice combat power.

    That is 100% incorrect like all your always are
  • mightygloinmightygloin Karaz-a-KarakRegistered Users Posts: 5,256
    Dwarfs should definitely be going tall rather than painting the map. They shouldn't even be able to grow on non-karak regions, maybe just establish outposts or something like wood elves.
  • GreenColouredGreenColoured Registered Users Posts: 4,153

    I see a couple of issues


    1) Why? Is there something currently wrong with HE, LM, and Dwarfs settlement?


    2) All three of these are order Factions. Nerfing them like this (and it is a nerf in the hands of the AI), will take the scale too far


    3) All three aren't doing too hot in ME anyways. If anything they should work to expand harder against chaos Factions

    High elves have a very poor economy, in order to receive income, you have to sacrifice combat power.

    You said two wrong things. And two wrongs never make a right.
  • kratostatickratostatic Registered Users Posts: 661
    Dwarfs should be geared more towards building tall yes. Lizardmen I can see the argument for. Tomb Kings kind of already do play quite tall.

    High Elves absolutely not. The race has outposts all over the planet. They should be one of the "widest" races that there are. Dark Elves I don't think so either, they're pretty big on expanding, especially into Ulthuan.

    I do like the general ideas you've proposed OP but I'm not sure how well they'll work in practice. Wood Elves show that they can work.
  • veresh1989veresh1989 Russia, Saint-PetersburgRegistered Users Posts: 4,451

    I see a couple of issues


    1) Why? Is there something currently wrong with HE, LM, and Dwarfs settlement?


    2) All three of these are order Factions. Nerfing them like this (and it is a nerf in the hands of the AI), will take the scale too far


    3) All three aren't doing too hot in ME anyways. If anything they should work to expand harder against chaos Factions

    High elves have a very poor economy, in order to receive income, you have to sacrifice combat power.

    That is 100% incorrect like all your always are

    I see a couple of issues


    1) Why? Is there something currently wrong with HE, LM, and Dwarfs settlement?


    2) All three of these are order Factions. Nerfing them like this (and it is a nerf in the hands of the AI), will take the scale too far


    3) All three aren't doing too hot in ME anyways. If anything they should work to expand harder against chaos Factions

    High elves have a very poor economy, in order to receive income, you have to sacrifice combat power.

    You said two wrong things. And two wrongs never make a right.
    As a player, I understand better.
  • LennoxPoodleLennoxPoodle Registered Users Posts: 1,250

    Well we had a system that successfully curbed expansion via regional occupation but it got replaced with the climate system.

    The climate penalties should be much more harsh IMO, and certain races have been given too generous habitable climates. High elves should not treat Naggaroth as their homeland, Dark elves should not prosper in chaotic wastelands etc. Then races with poor economy like greenskins should accept most types of climate, to offset their poor economy.
    I agree. In fact I always thought unsuitable climate should reduce max settlement tier by one per degree of unsuitability (so max tier is 2 for minor and 4 for major settlments in orange and 1 for minor and 3 for major settlments in red settlments).

    I see a couple of issues


    1) Why? Is there something currently wrong with HE, LM, and Dwarfs settlement?


    2) All three of these are order Factions. Nerfing them like this (and it is a nerf in the hands of the AI), will take the scale too far


    3) All three aren't doing too hot in ME anyways. If anything they should work to expand harder against chaos Factions

    1) There isn't anything wrong with them, but more difficult expansion balanced out by a much higher Investment (and return) ceiling per settlement fits those highly advanced but supposedly dying races better.

    2) Oh with Elves I meant the Druchii too. Should have clarified that.

    3) It isn't meant as a nerf, more of a sidegrade.

    Thanks for the feedback guys.
  • CaesarSahlertzCaesarSahlertz Registered Users Posts: 6,454
    How dare you even suggest anything else than the total conquering of the entire world?!?!?!?!1111 This is a tOtAl WaR gAmE!!! All factions should play EXACTLY identical to each other, since that is how tOtAl WaR gAmEs always have played!
  • LennoxPoodleLennoxPoodle Registered Users Posts: 1,250
    Okay let's talk special mechanics to keep Up martial motivation, beginning with the easiest ones, since they pretty much already have all the building blocks.
    The allies of old: Dark Elves and Dwarves (At least Malekith and Grombrindal).
    So according to the lore the Dwarfs don't have any interest to settle beyond the mountain ranges of the world. But they have a burning passion for reclaiming all the lost Karaks (which basically stretch through all the Mountains of the Old World, Southlands and Darklands. So limiting their ideal climate to mounains only seems appropriate.
    Anyway they do leave their homes to wage war for two reasons: Grudges and helping out their allies (which they use as buffers). Luckily both of those are already in the game. It's just that the former might need to be expanded a bit If it is supposed to be the main reason to cause trouble, aside from reclaiming the Karaz Ankor. There's basically an unlimited supply of wrongs in the great book, acquired throughout the millenia of the Dawi civilisations existence. So I propose a second type of grudge, the ancestral grudge. It's meant to be really old ones which are unlimited (either you can research them or immediately get a nee one once one is cleared) but don't have negative impacts. Basically you can clear them for rewards.
    The Druchii are even easier. They live only in Naggaroth and just want to "reclaim" Ulthuan. So magical island and most of those climates present in Naggaroth should be suitable (maybe not desert). Those factions starting somwhere Else should obviously be exceptions to that. Also ofc getting all of Ulthuan had to remain part of their (ME) victory condition. Most of their millitary expedtions however simply aim at taking slaves. So building up at home, internal feuds trying to take the big island and sailing all over the world sacking people wouldn't be that much of change. Basically you'd just not take large swathes of lustria anymore but getting more from home if you can keep the slave population Up.
  • GreenColouredGreenColoured Registered Users Posts: 4,153
    edited February 18

    Well we had a system that successfully curbed expansion via regional occupation but it got replaced with the climate system.

    The climate penalties should be much more harsh IMO, and certain races have been given too generous habitable climates. High elves should not treat Naggaroth as their homeland, Dark elves should not prosper in chaotic wastelands etc. Then races with poor economy like greenskins should accept most types of climate, to offset their poor economy.
    I agree. In fact I always thought unsuitable climate should reduce max settlement tier by one per degree of unsuitability (so max tier is 2 for minor and 4 for major settlments in orange and 1 for minor and 3 for major settlments in red settlments).

    I see a couple of issues


    1) Why? Is there something currently wrong with HE, LM, and Dwarfs settlement?


    2) All three of these are order Factions. Nerfing them like this (and it is a nerf in the hands of the AI), will take the scale too far


    3) All three aren't doing too hot in ME anyways. If anything they should work to expand harder against chaos Factions

    1) There isn't anything wrong with them, but more difficult expansion balanced out by a much higher Investment (and return) ceiling per settlement fits those highly advanced but supposedly dying races better.

    2) Oh with Elves I meant the Druchii too. Should have clarified that.

    3) It isn't meant as a nerf, more of a sidegrade.

    Thanks for the feedback guys.
    So in some levels I kinda like the logic of ancient declining races building tall as it fits them well thematically.



    Part of the problem is the AI absolutely will get wrecked though, and 50% of the enjoyment of Total War lies on the AI's ability to present ba challenge vto the player



    Look at how pathetic the Vampire Coast has become now. Look at Noctilus, stuck with 1-2 settlement all Campaign long and have almost no presence
  • BlacedBlaced Registered Users Posts: 1,495

    Well we had a system that successfully curbed expansion via regional occupation but it got replaced with the climate system.

    The climate penalties should be much more harsh IMO, and certain races have been given too generous habitable climates. High elves should not treat Naggaroth as their homeland, Dark elves should not prosper in chaotic wastelands etc. Then races with poor economy like greenskins should accept most types of climate, to offset their poor economy.

    Well we had a system that successfully curbed expansion via regional occupation but it got replaced with the climate system.

    The climate penalties should be much more harsh IMO, and certain races have been given too generous habitable climates. High elves should not treat Naggaroth as their homeland, Dark elves should not prosper in chaotic wastelands etc. Then races with poor economy like greenskins should accept most types of climate, to offset their poor economy.
    Exactly, plus Dwarfs should not be favorable on Wasteland

    And also more climate types: Nagarythe should be something special, not wasteland where Greenskins and Skavens can live there
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 10,968
    The hard part would be giving them alternative reasons to venture forth.

    Back in the days before TWW2 released, one of the things I considered for both High Elves and Lizardmen was a campaign based on restoring the waystone network/Great Warding to improve the defences against Chaos and the efficiency of the Vortex. A key part of this is that such an objective wouldn't necessarily require that the race in question actually conquer the territory in question, just to perform whatever tasks (which could be similar to the forest encounters that the Wood Elves have now) are required to restore the sites in question, and making sure that the sites in question aren't going to be taken over by a faction that's just going to destroy them again. In return, the better the state of the network, the better their home economy becomes - in the case of the High Elves, a more stable Vortex means that less of their resources need to be diverted to defend against daemons and monsters coming down from the mountains (and they could also take the approach that some of the causes of the High Elf decline, such as the low birth rate and the sleeping dragons, are caused by instabilities in the Vortex and could therefore be reversed by stabilising the Vortex), and for the Lizardmen, a more stable Geomantic Web increases the flow of power available to activate various Old One sites, improve the productivity of spawning pools, and so on.

    Part of the benefit of this is that, potentially particularly for the High Elves, it would really encourage a campaign of cooperating with other Order races. Some opponents like the Dark Elves you might still want to take out yourself, but when it comes to, say, maintaining the relevant sites in the Old World, it might well be more efficient to support a trusted ally or two in the Old World rather than trying to conquer it yourself, maintaining the ability to intervene when necessary and carrying out raids to weaken mutual enemies but largely relying on your ally's ability to defend themselves in order to protect the restored sites.
  • Lord_DrakkenLord_Drakken Registered Users Posts: 117
    I like where this discussion is going.

    They not only need more types of climate. There needs to be more than 3 levels of suitability with worse penalties to settling in unsuitable regions. I wrote a thread about this.

    https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/279673/should-tww3-have-more-climate-types-and-levels-of-bonus-penalty#latest
  • LennoxPoodleLennoxPoodle Registered Users Posts: 1,250
    Okay, let's get to the Asur, currently they wouldn't really have any reason for action outside conquest.
    Well, they want to exterminate the Druchii, but that's it. The point is they don't profit that much from waging war without territorial gain.
    The question is though if they even should be a mainly non-expansion based faction. They are the guys with all the overseas colonies after all, as @kratostatic pointed out. After Aenarion and Caledor stopped Chaos with the Vortex they pretty much went on a colonization craze. The thing is, that the sundering and the war of the beard put a stop to that, pretty much leading to the proud people of Ulthuan to retreat to their homeland and adopt isolationism. They maintained a few of their overseas holding, but these are basically only millitary outposts and naval bases to respond to any problematic stuff that might happen. The idea of founding new colonies was gone.
    Obviously that would make a poor campaign, just sitting on Ulthuan and waiting for Malekith to come by for a bit of a scrap. Luckily Chaos showed it's rotten, seductive, scheming, anrgy face again and the then new phoenix king Finnubar decided on a new policy. The High Elves would support those powers whose goals and ideals somewhat line up with their own (mainly the empire, who do the same thing with Kislev) to do the dirty work. They even opened Lothern (but only Lothern) to outsiders!!! We can work with that. The Asur work through proxy. Pick another force of order in the region you want to act in and ensure they become dominant.
    Part of the tools are already their, since intrigue at court gives you the means to sufficiently manipulate the behavior of your "ally" (read: pawn). The issue is that the result would be a campaign about building up and defending Ulthuan whilst performing overseas supporting expeditions FAR AWAY from your own settlements. The logistical issues are obvious: unlike the Druchii you don't have the black arks to support these adventures. So an equivalent mechanic making that feasible would have be introduced.
    I have a possible solution but it's a bit out there. In the lore (again) many human harbor cities (chief amongst them Marienburg) have sizable Elven districts, pretty much exlusively inhabited by Asrai. In the game that could represented as a "friendly" (read: nosy and manipulative) undercity. HE factions would get the option to establish them in the "ally faction's" (probably only non-elven order factions) trade port (the harbor city through which overseas trade agreements are drawn) through diplomacy (so the "ally" has to agree), with non-aggression and trade pacts as prerequisites. So elf factions gain an additional option to profit from a friends success, a base to support operations near their territory and extra ways to help them out.
    I have no idea how building slots or population in these should be handled, but a few suggestions for possible strucutres to clarify what the thing does:
    -Warehouse: Boosts the income from the trade agreement between the settlement's and elven district's owner for both
    sides.
    -Ambassy: Provides a boost to the diplomatic relation between both factions.
    -Noble's Villa: Increases the effect of the district owner's intrigue at court on the settlements owner.
    -Command Post: Allows hero recruitment (no effect on the limit) for the districts owner in the region (good idea?)
    -Millitary Dock: Boosts global recruitment (I guess both cost and speed) for the district owner in the region
    -Seaguard Barracks: Adds Seaguard (they are fairly good in siege defense) units to the settlments garrison and maybe even allows the player to control the defending army in case of a siege

    Obviously an end of the agreement by either party would result in the immediate demolishing of the district. Given that the district can also boost the relationships that should be fairly unlikely though.

    That's quite a wall of texts, so:
    TL;DR: Friendly undercity called elven district (or quarter) established in other order faction's trade harbour through diplomacy, allowing boosts to trade, intrigue at court, diplomatic relationship, global recruitment (for the elven party), extra seaguard in the towns garrison and maybe even hero recruitment for the elven party.

    What do you think? Is it too much? How would you adress the issue? Should there be an option to produce waystone fragments with it in the Vortex campaign and how would that interact with the lizarmen? (guess not since it's more of a suggestion for game 3 at this point. So it wouldn't exist in Vortex.)
  • LennoxPoodleLennoxPoodle Registered Users Posts: 1,250
    Okay, thanks to this forums "ingenious" sorting defaulting to "new" instead of "hot" this thread seemingly has died out. Still I'm not done yet so I'll at least finish up.

    The last ones on the list are the Lizardmen, who really are on the dying out boat, since Slann can't reproduce and no one on the entire planet can built new spawning pools. Once one is destroyed it's gone forever. (Actually that just gave me an idea. What if instead of caring about climate, LM could only have any growth at all in regions with "inert spawning pools", a special feature visible only to them?). So expanding is actually more impossible for them than any other elder race.
    Still they have reasons to move out and bash in some heads. Firstly they are filthy rich which means the younger races love to rob them. The Slann are actually kind of okay with this, unless those robbers also take a few plaques of the old ones. In this case they'll will try to recover those plaques and kil every single one of those tresspassers. That's actually the downfall of many old world holdings in lustria. Apart from that those dinos are ofc kind of racist (or specicist?), feeling compelled to exterminate everything that isn't part of the great plan.
    The issue is that I have no idea to make a compelling campaign mechanic out of recovering plaques (btw that's how the tomb kings operate too, trying to put everyone to the swords who sniffed their burial treasure), which isn't helped by the fact that those things already are their ritual resource. Also I don't feel that destroy all forces of destruction as a victory condition is a compelling reason to do it without taking their territory too.
    So actually I have to admit to not having any suggestion here, besides thinking that a terraforming building that locally eliminates climate maluses would be fitting for them. But that actually runs AGAINST the point.
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