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Dawn Of War 3: A Sega Warhammer Horror Story

DendrofielDendrofiel Registered Users Posts: 101
edited February 22 in Off Topic General
Gather round folks for I have a tale to tell. Now first I need to warn you that this tale is for adult audiences only.

There once was a Company called "Relic Entertainment" and they where allot like the Creative Assembly we know today. They had a successful game formula and they to obtained the Warhammer IP.

Now Relic Entertainment had made success making Real Time Strategy Games (RTS) like Homeworld and Impossible Creatures. They and Games Workshop saw allot of opportunity in the now established and trusted company. They Made Dawn of War, an RTS based upon the Warhammer 40k universe. It was a massive hit. Its success would secure Relics future for years to come. All the managers rejoiced when they looked at their bank accounts. They cheered and pushed Relic to quickly develop some more expansions for the game and the talented motivated company proceeded and made 3!

Some fans where worried that each expansion was more unbalanced than the previous one and seemed rushed. However luckily this negativity did not stick and people and managers alike celebrated their existence.

Satisfied for now, Relic was left to their own property's as Games Workshop had other large projects that drew their attention in Age Of Sigmar and the Horus Heresy.

Relic returned and with their newly gained funds released two games in the same year. The first one a shooter called "The Outfit" was an decent but ultimately failed attempt at gaining footing in the exploded shooter gaming market. The managers at Relic would never forget this lost opportunity, but alas they had to move on as their next big release was just a couple of months away.

Now their next game was a World War 2 RTS named "Company of Heroes" and again it was an instant hit. The game reimaged the genre and was a breath of fresh air. The failure of The Outfit was quickly forgotten and Relic quickly set their eyes to use their new and daring formula for the sequel of Dawn of War.

I guess we can skip this part as most of you realise that again Dawn of War 2 was a hit. Yes there where some voices who where disappointed about the game being so different from the first one, but none could argue that it was a great game none the less.
The expansions where a decent success and most people liked them. Only a few "elitists" complained about the cosmetic DLC, unbalanced competitive gameplay and a Hero Survival Mode called "Last Stand". These complaints where quickly brushed away by the mainstream audience as the Last Stand mode was innocent fun and who could have a problem with that?

There was little news from Relic for a couple years until they announced that they where going to be obtained and sold to SEGA.

At first all seemed normal as Relic released Company of Heroes 2 and this again was their biggest game yet. Now unknown to Relic was that SEGA worshipped The Great Maw and was always looking for more cash to satisfy the eternal depth of their greed. SEGA and Games Workshop convinced Relic that they could conquer some of the MOBA market with Dawn of War. Now remembering what happened to "The Outfit" some at Relic where hesitant, but all where convinced that Moba's where allot more familiar than shooters. While the fans where completely oblivious of Relic watching Avengers Movies and playing League of Legends as Dawn of War 3 pre-production, they where wondering whether the company would return to the more traditional playstyle of part 1 or their recent formula used in part 2.

So then finally the release trailer released... And everybody was silent as people watched the famous hero Gabriel Angelos jumped over a canyon while doing a mid air front flip. As people watched on.. the unparalleled action of the game made it quite difficult to tell what was actually happening and people started to get nervous. They did not understand what was happening and whether they should be excited or disappointed. Their feelings did not matter, as Relic, Sega, Games Workshop did not intend for them to like the game and was looking at greening pastures in the large Chinese MOBA Market. Everybody was quiet the week before the game released. The silence only broken when the first people who played it came out to share the news. "How was it" was whispered by the fans? Their trustworthy YouTube influencer told them "Not to Worry".. For.. "The game was getting used to".. but... "Was pretty fun". "Pretty Fun" people asked themselves, what does that mean? The first people broke down and deemed that they where betrayed. No longer was Relic interested in their business, they where to be used to sell the game to a larger audience. "Blasphemy" as the loyalist denounced those who would suspect Relic of such treachery. The discussion quickly broke down as Nerds, Geeks, Casuals, Elitists started to fight each other about who was to blame for their ignorance. "The Influencers!" was shouted from among the rumble "They are to Blame!". The fighting died down for a second as people where considering this proposal. "Well lets ask them" a reddittor known for his memes proposed. Alas none of the influencers could be found as they had seemingly left.

Everybody went home and started spamming the forums, youtube and other social media about what happened that day and that the influencers where to blame for having Relic drift away from the community. The next day the influencers came out and announced that "Indeed Relic had Betrayed Them" that those who where early to positively reviewed the game "Where bought and Payed for" and no longer could be trusted. That was pretty much the last that happened for the community. The game came out and of course those who tried it where disappointed and everybody seemingly forgot the game even existed, not wanting to remember what happened.

Now what happened to the MOBA audiance? Well... Seeing that nobody was interested, the casuals never really jumped on the bandwagon nor could they make up the lightshow that was happening on screen. Relic announced the game would not be supported and everybody moved on. Nobody knows if there will ever be another Dawn of War and Relic has moved on to work on their newly obtained Age of Empires franchise.

So this was the tale of Dawn of War 3 and the death of their community. I hope you all enjoyed it.
Post edited by dge1 on
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Comments

  • CyresdogCyresdog Registered Users Posts: 466
    edited February 20
    It wasn't the best DoW but I had plenty of fun with it and enjoyed it more than the 2nd DoW

  • DendrofielDendrofiel Registered Users Posts: 101
    Cyresdog said:

    It wasn't the best DoW but I had plenty of fun with it and enjoyed it more than the 2nd DoW

    Don't turn on the lights man ;)
  • mecanojavi99mecanojavi99 Registered Users Posts: 936
    I played it and it was fun, but I will always have DOW 2 as my favorite, it was the first 40k game I ever bought and was what introduced me to the universe, even if the Crimson Fists are my favorite SM chapter, the Blood Ravens will always have a place in my heart, charismatic characters like Tarkus, Avitus, Cyrus or Thaddeus always make me smile when I play it from time to time, also I enjoyed the continuity between the 3 expansions, that a minor character like Sageant Merrick ends up becoming part of the IG campaign in Retribution for example, and the qustomization and ability to make your squads unique was one of my favorite parts of the game.
  • Cortes31Cortes31 Registered Users Posts: 1,518
    Honestly, I played the first DoW but was not impressed. Mediocre, I'd say.
  • SchubSchub Registered Users Posts: 451
    DoW 3 was not as bad as people like to call it. I liked it and unfortunately there will never be an addon.
    But let’s be honest. A DoW 3 which is completely like DoW 1 would not sell as much copies today as DoW 1 did in the past. You need a fresh gameplay.

    Also the campaign was quite fun.
    Sigmar protect us all...


  • HamadhunterHamadhunter Registered Users Posts: 1,615
  • HighPriest_AstragothHighPriest_Astragoth Registered Users Posts: 371
    Cortes31 said:

    Honestly, I played the first DoW but was not impressed. Mediocre, I'd say.

    You still own that DoW? You know what DoW and ME2TW have in common, they were both great games released around the same time, with fantastic modding support thats kept them alive long past their death date.


  • damon40000damon40000 Registered Users Posts: 277
    only thing to add is that coh2 was a pile of dung from the start
    BsFG dwarf
  • CyresdogCyresdog Registered Users Posts: 466
    edited February 20

    Cyresdog said:

    It wasn't the best DoW but I had plenty of fun with it and enjoyed it more than the 2nd DoW

    Don't turn on the lights man ;)
    Because I don't agree with you on my personal preference?
    Btw why is a Dawn of War thread in a Warhammer fantasy forum?

  • ChoraChora Registered Users Posts: 57
    edited February 20
    This seems like one of those posts where someone keeps declaring what “everyone” is thinking, but really it’s just their own subjective POV.

    Maybe you’re going for humour, not sure, but why not just share your opinion? From my POV, any message you’re trying to convey is lost in the hyperbole, assumptions and generalizations.

    Not sure what the topic is here but... yes, I enjoyed dow2 the most and 3 the least. I do agree with Schub that game developers should more frequently be creative and bold. I like that Dow 2 and 3 tried something new; to all the people angry that dow3 changed the formula, changing the formula is what lead to the success of dow2 and should always be encouraged, even if sometimes they miss the mark. Innovation>Crapping out a slightly nicer looking copy of the previous game. If anything, spitting out generic unexciting sequels/dlcs/remasters is a profit driven pox on the gaming market.

    Diablo for example, the core game mechanics are all the same from sequel to sequel. It might seem fun to get a fresh coat of paint but quite quickly you realizing you’re playing the same as when you’re a kid. Both the gaming market and my tastes have grown, gaming sequels should do the same
  • 39821739175248623982173917524862 Registered Users Posts: 1,221
    Relic was under THQ who went bankrupt at the time during CoH2's development. Many of the original devs likely left before they got picked up by SEGA. You can't attribute each negative to a publisher and each positive to a dev team. SEGA is also handling publishing Amplitude's Endless games and Humankind, they have not shown anything of the sort.
  • GettoGeckoGettoGecko Registered Users Posts: 1,171
    I'm not sure why you want to stick that to SEGA as they are only the publisher.
    Relic f*ed up big time and it was their choice to ignore their fanbase and try to include a target group of an already oversaturated genre.

    It also don't make much sense to reference to the old success of the company as the people who made these games had left the company before that. I just doesn't make sense to look at a company name and expect something from that. Take the film industry as comparison, there you look at who are the actors, camera, production and special effect people to judge the potential of a film, you don't say oh this film is made by universal, paramount or 20th century.
  • DendrofielDendrofiel Registered Users Posts: 101
    edited February 20
    Chora said:

    This seems like one of those posts where someone keeps declaring me what “everyone” is thinking, but really it’s just their own subjective POV.

    Maybe you’re going for humour, not sure, but why not just share your opinion? From my POV, any message you’re trying to convey is lost in the hyperbole and generalizations.

    Not sure what the topic is here but... yes, I enjoyed dow2 the most and 3 the least. I do agree with Schub that game developers should more frequently be creative and bold. I like that Dow 2 and 3 tried something new; to all the people angry that dow3 changed the formula, changing the formula is what lead to the success of dow2 and should always be encouraged, even if sometimes they miss the mark.

    Diablo for example, the core game mechanics are all the same from sequel to sequel. It might seem fun to get a fresh coat of paint but quite quickly you realizing you’re playing the same as when you’re a kid. Both the gaming market and my tastes have grown, gaming sequels should do the same

    Well because I was going for entertainment and I think the message is very thick and obvious. Well you can be delusional and salty, but the reality is still represented in the story. Of course I chose a story to dramatize what happened.

    The message FYI is that growth inherently means "someone els than you". Diablo 3 was a massive failure at launch and turned it around when it released on console as a co-op title. Even tough eventually commercially successful its initial failure spawned multiple competitors.

    Also the formula for DoW3 is not intended to grow with you, but is less mature than its predecessors and intended for younger audiances... Like the Battlefield games.

    Relic was under THQ who went bankrupt at the time during CoH2's development. Many of the original devs likely left before they got picked up by SEGA. You can't attribute each negative to a publisher and each positive to a dev team. SEGA is also handling publishing Amplitude's Endless games and Humankind, they have not shown anything of the sort.

    Yeah I took some liberty's. I thought this would be intuitive due to it being a story. Further you make the exact mistake that I point out with Humankind, you don't know till it's there.. Stop pre-ordering. Make them work for your business

    I'm not sure why you want to stick that to SEGA as they are only the publisher.
    Relic f*ed up big time and it was their choice to ignore their fanbase and try to include a target group of an already oversaturated genre.

    It also don't make much sense to reference to the old success of the company as the people who made these games had left the company before that. I just doesn't make sense to look at a company name and expect something from that. Take the film industry as comparison, there you look at who are the actors, camera, production and special effect people to judge the potential of a film, you don't say oh this film is made by universal, paramount or 20th century.

    Yeah I agree that Relic themselves are also to blame. Further it is possible to have continuity even tough it's not absolute. It's not Relay Race...
  • SerPusSerPus Registered Users Posts: 3,696
    That is a big wall of text with little substance in it. What's the point?

    DoW3 died because Relic couldn't make something even closely resembling a balance. They added a whole lot of options that were never used.
  • LordCommanderLordCommander Registered Users Posts: 1,920
    Relic is entirely to blame for their design clusterfudge. They needed one person as designer, not three. Philippe Boulle was simply not the right man to direct the project, either.
  • TeNoSkillTeNoSkill Registered Users Posts: 3,366
    SerPus said:

    That is a big wall of text with little substance in it. What's the point?

    DoW3 died because Relic couldn't make something even closely resembling a balance. They added a whole lot of options that were never used.

    And then they dumped instead of actually trying to fix it.
  • SerPusSerPus Registered Users Posts: 3,696
    TeNoSkill said:

    And then they dumped instead of actually trying to fix it.

    Oh. they tried to fix it, but each patch even made it more broken. They even added stuff that more casual players demanded, like turrets or annihilation game mode. But when every match is just a spam of the same few units, there is no a lot of fun in playing such game.

  • Mr_Finley7Mr_Finley7 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 5,399
    DoW3 was a cartoon, it had none of the soul of the first or even the second. Mb it hasn’t aged well, but for a lifelong Warhammer &40k nerd like myself it was **** amazing.

    Relic deserved to have DoW3 fail, and I hope it inflicted deep enough wounds on their bottom line to keep them from succumbing to that kind of outside pressure again.

    If CA pulls that **** on us with TWW3 (I highly doubt they will) then they deserve the same fate
  • DendrofielDendrofiel Registered Users Posts: 101
    SerPus said:

    That is a big wall of text with little substance in it. What's the point?

    DoW3 died because Relic couldn't make something even closely resembling a balance. They added a whole lot of options that were never used.

    I could have made it short and ignorant to I guess
  • Red_DoxRed_Dox Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 3,905
    The initial good news of a DoW3 and the good cinemtaic trailer, was smoked away fast with the first gameplay. Yes, seeing Gabriel jumping around with flisp in mid air while wearing terminator armor WAS a decisive factor. It showcased that Relic, which so far took 40k serious and represented it good, took a nose dive with no explanation.
    When we first saw "cover mechanics" with the shield bubbles, people who played DoW 2 could just facepalm about how far things had fallen.

    The developers, or rather who was left then and worked with whatever remains, seemed to have no clue what to make for a game. Appeasing the "we want to build bases" crowd from DoW1 did not work out, because basebuiling in game#3 was utterly ****. We had not even spamable turrets for base defending for crying out loud. On the other hand, the smaller units+ micro management tactical approach from DoW#2 did not work, becasue everything in the game was plastered to death with mircomanagement decisions for up to three abilities per unit, while building a "death blob" was the best option for campaign purposes. It got even worse with the lategame Elite crap, that could murder your deathblob in under 5 seconds. Forcing you then to spend another 20 minutes in your base to build everything up again. it was **** up for campaignh and Multiplayer. And yes, teh decision to try some of that sweet MOBA approach played into the downfall as well. Everyone who really played competeive DoW#2 MP knows that there, the cover system, the limited abilities and only heroes being annoying as **** in limited possibilities were what made the back and forth poitn capture worthwhile. While a side could get an advantage with earlier hightech units, you sometimes could still turn the match around. In DoW#3 when teh Elites came into play everything went bonkers from the start.

    The campaign also was crap from the beginning you play race#1 in mission#1 then race#2 in mission 2 and race#3 in mission 3 and then start the cycle again in mission 4+. MADNESS. When I reach the next mission I would like some steady progression with a race. Not get the next tech-stage with a complete new race which play somewhat familiar but has different roles, units and abilities. I mean how dense someone has to be to mess that up on purpose? And in the final mission I just get the three heroes to yokel around, everyone with a bunch of abilites and besides killing never ending waves of enemies until I reach point X on a map, I then get plastered with a bossfight straight from an MMO where I have to manage the characters, dodge AE effects left and right while having to juggle their abilites and try to land some attacks on said boss. I would have understood to play one hero for that. Maybe two. But three? And the mission design....always with the never ending waves of enemies, making every map a redundant slugfest until you were strong enough to break through. Even in classic Command & Conquer with a cheating AI I could try to starve the AI not. Not in this game however since the campign missions only forced the player to have an "economy".

    That game sucked ass. And that from someone who loved DoW#1, DoW#2 and Space Marines. Relic was good back in their days. But DoW#3 might have come under the Relic label, but it was a broken husk of its former self. And yeah, tehy canceled their Necron expansion becasue the game was recived badly. For good reasons. And them not throwing more money into a black hole, was a smart decision. And I really rather never get a DoW#4, then getting one that would be equally bad in every shape and form. Old Relic died for me with THQs downfall. If new Relic under Sega wants my trust back, they better earn it with a god damn good product. And if they can't do that, time for someone else to pick up the torch.

    Sadly, 40k videogames seem a bit cursed in general due to the quantity spam. While we occasionally still get good games like Armada2 or Mechanicus, we can't deny a wary outlook here. Even Darktide, which I assume would end up good, has me worried, because Fatshark has a tendency to drop the ball every now and then. Vermitide 2 is good, but has some problems still from the start. This reddit Umgak from yesterday sums it good up
    https://np.reddit.com/r/Vermintide/comments/lmo783/classic_megalodon/
    Who knows what the future will bring for 40k in general (latest newcomer seemed to be Battlesector), or for Dawn of War in specific. the IP certainly could be salvaged by a proper good game. If Relic still has the talent for that, is debatable after the last game.

    ------Red Dox
  • LordCommanderLordCommander Registered Users Posts: 1,920

    SerPus said:

    That is a big wall of text with little substance in it. What's the point?

    DoW3 died because Relic couldn't make something even closely resembling a balance. They added a whole lot of options that were never used.

    I could have made it short and ignorant to I guess
    Could you put in some links? I've read a lot about this over the years and some of your statements run completely contrary to what I've seen. It's interesting stuff as all car crashes are, but like car crashes there needs to be some investigative rigour after the fact.
  • Rubz2293Rubz2293 Registered Users Posts: 277
    I don't really get if there's supposed to be a message or lesson with this story.

    Regardless I am willing to give Relic a chance with Age4. They are one of the only remaining celebrated RTS developers of the past 20 years. They know they have big expectations on their shoulders and they know people are going to be critical of them due to DoW3. Also AoE4 isn't just cashgrab IP, it is one of the most iconic franchises in PC gaming. The metalworking teacher/rugby coach at my school knew about Age of Empires 15 odd years ago when I was in grade 8. Relic knows they have been giving rights to a piece of history, no-one would **** that up on purpose. Even then even the most serious of professionals mess up all the time without any intention.

    As for CA, I have my problems with them, but I think they know too that TW3 has the potential to become one of the most iconic fantasy wargames ever, perhaps supplanting Warcraft3's title in that regard, given what Blizzard has done to it's legacy. Difference ofcourse is that CA is one the rise while Blizzard is not.
  • DendrofielDendrofiel Registered Users Posts: 101
    edited February 20
    Red_Dox said:

    The initial good news of a DoW3 and the good cinemtaic trailer, was smoked away fast with the first gameplay. Yes, seeing Gabriel jumping around with flisp in mid air while wearing terminator armor WAS a decisive factor. It showcased that Relic, which so far took 40k serious and represented it good, took a nose dive with no explanation.

    Old Relic died for me with THQs downfall. If new Relic under Sega wants my trust back, they better earn it with a god damn good product. And if they can't do that, time for someone else to pick up the torch.

    Sadly, 40k videogames seem a bit cursed in general due to the quantity spam. While we occasionally still get good games like Armada2 or Mechanicus, we can't deny a wary outlook here. Even Darktide, which I assume would end up good, has me worried, because Fatshark has a tendency to drop the ball every now and then. Vermitide 2 is good, but has some problems still from the start. This reddit Umgak from yesterday sums it good up
    https://np.reddit.com/r/Vermintide/comments/lmo783/classic_megalodon/
    Who knows what the future will bring for 40k in general (latest newcomer seemed to be Battlesector), or for Dawn of War in specific. the IP certainly could be salvaged by a proper good game. If Relic still has the talent for that, is debatable after the last game.

    ------Red Dox

    Thanks I enjoyed that. I agree with you on most things apart from "Old Relic died for me with THQs downfall" Like I personally think Company of Heroes 2 is one of the best RTS ever made. Also I loved Impossible Creatures and think it's a pity that we never got a sequel. As for SEGA, I had a Master System 2 as a kid and used to love everything about them. But currently I distrust their business practices, pretty ambivalent about them.

    SerPus said:

    That is a big wall of text with little substance in it. What's the point?

    DoW3 died because Relic couldn't make something even closely resembling a balance. They added a whole lot of options that were never used.

    I could have made it short and ignorant to I guess
    Could you put in some links? I've read a lot about this over the years and some of your statements run completely contrary to what I've seen. It's interesting stuff as all car crashes are, but like car crashes there needs to be some investigative rigour after the fact.
    There are some post mortems on YouTube I remember watching and Total Biscuit also made a What The Hell is... Dawn Of War 3 video about it back in the day I think.
    Rubz2293 said:

    I don't really get if there's supposed to be a message or lesson with this story.

    Regardless I am willing to give Relic a chance with Age4. They are one of the only remaining celebrated RTS developers of the past 20 years. They know they have big expectations on their shoulders and they know people are going to be critical of them due to DoW3. Also AoE4 isn't just cashgrab IP, it is one of the most iconic franchises in PC gaming. The metalworking teacher/rugby coach at my school knew about Age of Empires 15 odd years ago when I was in grade 8. Relic knows they have been giving rights to a piece of history, no-one would **** that up on purpose. Even then even the most serious of professionals mess up all the time without any intention.

    As for CA, I have my problems with them, but I think they know too that TW3 has the potential to become one of the most iconic fantasy wargames ever, perhaps supplanting Warcraft3's title in that regard, given what Blizzard has done to it's legacy. Difference ofcourse is that CA is one the rise while Blizzard is not.

    I agree. I personally feel AOE4 is going to be very divisive. Age Of Empires imo is the most hardcore mainstream RTS, even more so then Starcraft. It's super difficult and it's APM cap is almost limitless in my opinion. I don't think AOE4 can be that difficult and attract a mainstream audiance, nor do I think the current playerbase is gonna like casualization and might stick to AOE2. Even more so if pro's like TheViper stay with 2. I just hope that it won't be like DoW3 but like DOW2, maybe different.. But still a great game.
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 29,175
    I absolutely detested DoW2 because it cut base-building and removed large-scale battles and you couldn't even have a reasonable offline skirmish since the skirmish AI was busted and only cared about capping points. That, not DoW3, was the nadir of the series to me. DoW3 could have been salvaged if they had only added a fourth bad guy race. Only having Orks as the "bad guys" was what put me off the game the most.

  • CyresdogCyresdog Registered Users Posts: 466
    edited February 20

    SerPus said:

    That is a big wall of text with little substance in it. What's the point?

    DoW3 died because Relic couldn't make something even closely resembling a balance. They added a whole lot of options that were never used.

    I could have made it short and ignorant to I guess
    You could also not post something that is not even remotely related to " Total War Warhammer " in a Total War Warhammer forum. Those games have pretty much nothing in common except for SEGA, which is a publisher not a developer. Its just another non sense spam thread with absolutely 0 substance to it.
    Worst is, its about a game that released almost 4 years ago, and is considered dead for 3 1/2 year. If you wanna cry, open up a discord server, invite some of your friends there, and then rant all about a game that no one cares about for years instead of spamming a in a forum about a completely different game, from a different developer, with different gameplay.
    I don't join a Blizzard Forum to rant about Guild Wars 2 either. No one with a working brain ever does something like that.

  • DendrofielDendrofiel Registered Users Posts: 101
    edited February 20
    Cyresdog said:

    SerPus said:

    That is a big wall of text with little substance in it. What's the point?

    DoW3 died because Relic couldn't make something even closely resembling a balance. They added a whole lot of options that were never used.

    I could have made it short and ignorant to I guess
    You could also not post something that is not even remotely related to " Total War Warhammer " in a Total War Warhammer forum. Those games have pretty much nothing in common except for SEGA, which is a publisher not a developer. Its just another non sense spam thread with absolutely 0 substance to it.
    Worst is, its about a game that released almost 4 years ago, and is considered dead for 3 1/2 year. If you wanna cry, open up a discord server, invite some of your friends there, and then rant all about a game that no one cares about for years instead of spamming a in a forum about a completely different game, from a different developer, with different gameplay.
    I don't join a Blizzard Forum to rant about Guild Wars 2 either. No one with a working brain ever does something like that.
    Don't be toxic bro. It's obviously trying to be a parallel to TWWH1-2-3, but with a nightmarish conclusion. Expressing some of the anxiety's some in the community feel.

    Edit: Reply



  • CyresdogCyresdog Registered Users Posts: 466
    edited February 20

    Cyresdog said:

    SerPus said:

    That is a big wall of text with little substance in it. What's the point?

    DoW3 died because Relic couldn't make something even closely resembling a balance. They added a whole lot of options that were never used.

    I could have made it short and ignorant to I guess
    You could also not post something that is not even remotely related to " Total War Warhammer " in a Total War Warhammer forum. Those games have pretty much nothing in common except for SEGA, which is a publisher not a developer. Its just another non sense spam thread with absolutely 0 substance to it.
    Worst is, its about a game that released almost 4 years ago, and is considered dead for 3 1/2 year. If you wanna cry, open up a discord server, invite some of your friends there, and then rant all about a game that no one cares about for years instead of spamming a in a forum about a completely different game, from a different developer, with different gameplay.
    I don't join a Blizzard Forum to rant about Guild Wars 2 either. No one with a working brain ever does something like that.
    Don't be toxic bro. It's obviously trying to be a parallel to TWWH1-2-3, but with a nightmarish conclusion. Expressing some of the anxiety's some in the community feel.
    I am not toxic, this thread is just completely useless. Dawn of Wars development cycle has 0 in common with Total War Warhammer.
    Also, no one in the community feels like that at all. No one with a working brain would think that ever.
    If those are actually things you think about in your free time then the only image i can have of you in my head is this one:


  • Red_DoxRed_Dox Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 3,905

    I absolutely detested DoW2 because it cut base-building and removed large-scale battles and you couldn't even have a reasonable offline skirmish since the skirmish AI was busted and only cared about capping points. That, not DoW3, was the nadir of the series to me. DoW3 could have been salvaged if they had only added a fourth bad guy race. Only having Orks as the "bad guys" was what put me off the game the most.

    That at least is rather a personal taste problem.
    DoW 2 changed the formula a bit to try something new, and it succeeded. Not everyone liked it and we can argue that the starter campaign had its problems but both Chaos Rising as well as Retribution did a good job to improve. The multiplayer was different since "unit spam" or "Base turtling" was not a viable strategy anymore. The game itself with smaller squads, better cover system and the abilities of the various troops, went for a better tactical approach here and pushed harder on the capping points which already were around in DoW#1 and both CoH games. And it worked like a charm. From my first beta matches to hundreds of MP matches later in Retribution and having 100% of achievements back in GFWL days, the MP was insanly good and competitive. The right micro at the right time, the right hero ability in a certain situation, laying a trap and hoping your opponent is not quick in situational adapting...I had way more fierce fights in DoW#2 then in DoW#1 MP. But yeah, it was not meant for everyone sicne you could not spam units without end or fortify your base to the extreme. But that it still was a pretty damn successful game showcases that IF you have a vision of what you want for a gamestyle, you should follow through and make it the best you can. While DoW#3 just had no vision and was trying to flipflop between both games while trying some new MOBA stuff. Failing from intial beta reports up to the after the release when eople complained about all kinds of wrong with the gameplay itself. Sure, we also have some people who like that, but clearly they were in a hard minority here as the sales numbers and active player numbers showed very quickly.

    The added "Last Stand" mode for DoW#2 was also a stroke of genius (man, they just had to release more maps as paid DLC instead of just adding more heroes) which helped to keep the game alive. Something, I would have expected to be IN the initial release of DoW#3 itself because of the success of that game mode. And since DoW#3 was focussing hard on Heroes+Elites, it could have helped a lot here. For whatever reasons they did not implement it, just adding another decision to the pile of fail with game#3.

    ------Red Dox
  • griffithxigriffithxi Registered Users Posts: 1,028
    DOW 3 was actually a pretty good game to me but it suffered a PR disaster from fans who were mad at Gabriel flipping and didn't realize it was explained in DOW2 by him losing his legs in the game and having artificial legs making him much taller and able to do what he did.

    Game was not perfect but it couldn't really be improved because it got burried under bad press that made up many peoples minds before they ever touched the game.

    I fell for it too for a while....due to all the negativity around it I wasn't going to even buy it but then I played the beta and realized it was really fun.

    I think without all that bad PR they could have improved the game and overcome its actual real faults. (IE pacing issues in some games where you feel like you already lost but the enemy can't break through to finish you.)
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 29,175
    Red_Dox said:

    I absolutely detested DoW2 because it cut base-building and removed large-scale battles and you couldn't even have a reasonable offline skirmish since the skirmish AI was busted and only cared about capping points. That, not DoW3, was the nadir of the series to me. DoW3 could have been salvaged if they had only added a fourth bad guy race. Only having Orks as the "bad guys" was what put me off the game the most.

    That at least is rather a personal taste problem.
    DoW 2 changed the formula a bit to try something new, and it succeeded. Not everyone liked it and we can argue that the starter campaign had its problems but both Chaos Rising as well as Retribution did a good job to improve. The multiplayer was different since "unit spam" or "Base turtling" was not a viable strategy anymore. The game itself with smaller squads, better cover system and the abilities of the various troops, went for a better tactical approach here and pushed harder on the capping points which already were around in DoW#1 and both CoH games. And it worked like a charm. From my first beta matches to hundreds of MP matches later in Retribution and having 100% of achievements back in GFWL days, the MP was insanly good and competitive. The right micro at the right time, the right hero ability in a certain situation, laying a trap and hoping your opponent is not quick in situational adapting...I had way more fierce fights in DoW#2 then in DoW#1 MP. But yeah, it was not meant for everyone sicne you could not spam units without end or fortify your base to the extreme. But that it still was a pretty damn successful game showcases that IF you have a vision of what you want for a gamestyle, you should follow through and make it the best you can. While DoW#3 just had no vision and was trying to flipflop between both games while trying some new MOBA stuff. Failing from intial beta reports up to the after the release when eople complained about all kinds of wrong with the gameplay itself. Sure, we also have some people who like that, but clearly they were in a hard minority here as the sales numbers and active player numbers showed very quickly.

    The added "Last Stand" mode for DoW#2 was also a stroke of genius (man, they just had to release more maps as paid DLC instead of just adding more heroes) which helped to keep the game alive. Something, I would have expected to be IN the initial release of DoW#3 itself because of the success of that game mode. And since DoW#3 was focussing hard on Heroes+Elites, it could have helped a lot here. For whatever reasons they did not implement it, just adding another decision to the pile of fail with game#3.

    ------Red Dox
    Of course it's personal? What else matters when the topic is how much one liked or disliked the DoW titles?

    The only unique addtion of DoW2 to the series were meme-y characters and nothing else (the cover system was straight copied from CoH), otherwise the game subtracted where it mattered. DoW1 gradually expanded in scope while DoW2 shrunk back to a slightly more sophisticated version of DoW1 vanilla, a semi-linear sequence of battles. Whatever else they added didn't make up for all what they removed, not one bit. Maybe those tiny skirmishes were amusing for you, but after the huge battles you could have in DoW1, especially in the modded versions, I couldn't bring myself to care.

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