Perfect Vigour for Vampires?

Liemaeu

Vampires should have the Perfect Vigour trait by lore, shouldn't they?

I'm not entirely familiar with the lore, but e.g. Vlad shouldn't get tired as fast as Bretonian peasants.


What do you think about this?

NoSkill4U#6552

Lahmians can get it already, otherwise I'd have to say no, that would be too good.

At max I'd give Counts more ways to restore vigour, like Vanhels restoring vigour or the Hunger.

Because that gives you more options to play with.

Lotus_Moon#2452

+300g and ok sure

Liemaeu

Note: It's mainly for multiplayer, since it won't really effect the campaign (since Wind of Death and other tools are kind of the main damage dealer in campaign, not your vampire lord in melee).

turrehund#8512

Honestly there are so many units and characters that by lore "should" have perfect vigour, but for balancing reasons really shouldn't.

Vigour levels should be tiered instead of the "all or nothing" system we have now, where a select few units have perfect vigour while everyone else gets exhausted at the exact same rate.

Should be:
Weak Vigour: Fodder level chaff like starved peasants and skavenslaves, Skaven Weapon Teams, probably some other units.
Normal Vigour: Most units
Strong Vigour: Pure melee Lords, Vampires, elite units, some heroes
Perfect Vigour: Grail Knights and a very select few other units

Liemaeu

turrehund said:

Honestly there are so many units and characters that by lore "should" have perfect vigour, but for balancing reasons really shouldn't.

Vigour levels should be tiered instead of the "all or nothing" system we have now, where a select few units have perfect vigour while everyone else gets exhausted at the exact same rate.

Should be:
Weak Vigour: Fodder level chaff like starved peasants and skavenslaves, Skaven Weapon Teams, probably some other units.
Normal Vigour: Most units
Strong Vigour: Pure melee Lords, Vampires, elite units, some heroes
Perfect Vigour: Grail Knights and a very select few other units

Great idea! It's a change I would love to see in WH3.

Darthplagueis13#4382

I think it would be neat if a vigour buff was just added to one of their abilities. The safest one would probably be the Hunger because it doesn't directly affect other units on the battlefield. On the other hand I'm not particularily thrilled by the idea of buffing Mournguls which also have the Hunger. Maybe there could be an upgraded version just for lords and heroes.

WojmirVonCarstein

Perhaps not perfect vigour but IF the vampire is on foot THEN they restore vigour in combat only.

Jman5#8318

Give it to zombies as a campaign tech. Gives them that slow, but unrelenting feel where they eventually overwhelm you as you tire.

Odysseus95

The hunger would be a perfect candidate for also restoring some vigour (cuz they're drinking the blood of their enemies to sustain and revitalize themselves, right?), methinks. The ability is currently pretty lackluster anyway.

TheShiroOfDalton

Jman5 said:

Give it to zombies as a campaign tech. Gives them that slow, but unrelenting feel where they eventually overwhelm you as you tire.

Zombies have MA 5, MD 6, CB 3 and 23 speed. I doubt perfect vigor would change their battle performance much.

I'd rather give them a tech upgrade inspired by their AoS design. I'd make it so that any time any non-character infantry model dies, a randomly chosen zombie unit gets a 5% chance of recovering a lost model. This BTW should replace the zero-upkeep tech.

MamaLuigi

Vampires on foot just need a speed buff over vigor buff, it makes no sense why beastmaster can have 46 speed and outrun them

BRiiTASH2

MamaLuigi said:

Vampires on foot just need a speed buff over vigor buff, it makes no sense why beastmaster can have 46 speed and outrun them

Beastmaster has better cardio because they spend more time being chased by manticores and hydras.

WojmirVonCarstein

BRiiTASH2 said:

MamaLuigi said:

Vampires on foot just need a speed buff over vigor buff, it makes no sense why beastmaster can have 46 speed and outrun them

Beastmaster has better cardio because they spend more time being chased by manticores and hydras.

Vampires literally have perfect cardio since their hearts don't beat and they don't' need oxygen (now that I think about it I am not sure how vampires are able to move around at all... I guess dark magic is the answer). So even if they sprint for 10 miles it's not like their heart rate will go up and they'll need more oxygen in their lungs.

And in lore they are super fast. Lahmian vampires are said to be so fast that the eye cannot follow. In one of the gortrek and felix novels (vampire slayer?) the main bad guy vampire has some local drunks try to fight him in a bar and he is so fast that to him the humans move at a snails pace.

NoSkill4U#6552

WojmirVonCarstein said:

BRiiTASH2 said:

MamaLuigi said:

Vampires on foot just need a speed buff over vigor buff, it makes no sense why beastmaster can have 46 speed and outrun them

Beastmaster has better cardio because they spend more time being chased by manticores and hydras.

Vampires literally have perfect cardio since their hearts don't beat and they don't' need oxygen (now that I think about it I am not sure how vampires are able to move around at all... I guess dark magic is the answer). So even if they sprint for 10 miles it's not like their heart rate will go up and they'll need more oxygen in their lungs.

And in lore they are super fast. Lahmian vampires are said to be so fast that the eye cannot follow. In one of the gortrek and felix novels (vampire slayer?) the main bad guy vampire has some local drunks try to fight him in a bar and he is so fast that to him the humans move at a snails pace.

Yeah, basically magic is what keeps these guys running, mimicking the bodiely funtictions.

That's the reason why they die with a stake through the heart, as this disrupts the magic keeping them unlive.

Alao the reason why drinking the blood of victims refreshes them as they basically drain your lifeforce = soul.

And souls are basically batteries for any magic.

GreenColoured#2445

Nah they're fine as is.


What they SHOULD change though is make Vigour not affect ARMOUR for some reason.

WojmirVonCarstein

GreenColoured said:

Nah they're fine as is.


What they SHOULD change though is make Vigour not affect ARMOUR for some reason.

While vigour not making armour aims to make armoured units better, the unintended side-effect of this is that non-AP damage will be EVEN WORSE. Thus, it will lead to AP heroes/lords/SEMs being even better compared to non-ap lords. And I don't think we should go this way.

dag0net

GreenColoured said:

Nah they're fine as is.


What they SHOULD change though is make Vigour not affect ARMOUR for some reason.

An Armour stat assumes the wearer is getting that armour between their fleshy bits & their enemy's weapon, an ap stat assumes either the ability to go through armour or around it.

VIgour loss affects armour because armour (traditionally) must be used, granted it might not make much sense for a dragon or a steam tank (which has pv.) Armour is far less effective, just as weapons are, if the wearer cannot muster the strength or energy(vigour) to utillize it effectively.

Though, while I'm on armour, wouldn't it make sense for it to be degraded every time damage is applied? (This is somewhat assumed in that vigour decreases quickly in melee)

As to OPQ and my (totally not concerned with balance and therefore misplaced) opinion on it. The Hunger should not be optional and should restore vigour. Whilst we're at it, magically animated entities should weaken as wom diminishes.

WojmirVonCarstein

dag0net said:

I always thought that it is really strange that undead disintegrate when you flank/rear charge them. It would make undead more unique if undead leadership was affected by WoM somehow and also whatever/whoever is sustaining them (necromancer, corpse cart, vampires etc). Vampiric units should not disintegrate but break and flee. In the lore, vampires are actually not very brave in general, they are first and foremost worried about their own survival. So aside from "honourable" ones like Blood Knights and blood dragon vampires, most vampires would flee rather than die.

So there would be this dichotomy between mindless animated undead minions that are only "alive" thanks to necromantic magic animating and sustaining them and then vampires which are alive on their own and do not need to be sustained via magic.

So the "alive" undead that are not mere puppets would be: All VC characters, Blood knights, varghulfs, vargheists, Black Coach, ghouls, corpse carts (I believe these are driven by necromancer types who are not actual puppets).
Then zombies, skeletons, bats, dire wolves, grave guard, black knights, etheareals, Terrorgoose would be mere puppets.
I am not sure about Crypt horrors. In the lore they are ghouls that have feasted on vampire blood and so are still kind of alive (they are large ghouls). Though perhaps they could be classified as puppets in Total War.