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Grimgor Ironhide

DaBoyzAreBackInTownDaBoyzAreBackInTown Registered Users Posts: 446
Post-DLC most GS lords are in a pretty decent spot with the outlier being Grimgor. Although due to the knockdown changes he can now stand and fight the enemy, he still has all the same problems he always had which is that he has no real ability to pick engagements and ends up fighting chaff all game. And now that the Waaagh! has been made a faction mechanic rather than a lord ability he no longer even plays the role of Waaaagh battery.

Below is my thinking behind why he is still bad, and what can be done to help him:

Abilities only target lords/heroes
A big issue he has is that 2 of his abilities (Best of Da Best & You're next) only work on enemy characters which means that he still can't meaningfully fight large non-character monsters. There is never a situation where Skarsnik would not be a better choice as he is just as tanky, has better abilities for combating large targets (be they lord/hero or just a monster or cav unit), can give AOE buffs and realistically Grimgor can't get to the targets he wants to fight anyway.

Lack of mobility
Grimgor still suffers from not being able to fight the target he needs to make his cost back (or at least attempt to). Blood-Forged Armour in theory should be able to assist him getting out of chaff and to the enemy he needs to fight, but as a 200+ gold explosion ability (with some extra armour) this puts his cost up even further and makes it harder to get his value back. This wouldn't be such an issue on roster like the Dwarfs where you can park Ungrim (who has similar issues) next to a Thunderer or Trollhammer and your opponent will have to come to you to shut it down. As a primarily rush faction, Greenskins need to go to their opponent and can't threaten enough at range to draw the enemy to their fighty lords.

Not really very tanky

Grimgor has 4k hp and 120 armour so seems tanky on paper, but he has 45 MD and any chip damage he takes really hurts him. Especially once he starts to get exhausted and his armour goes down to 90.

Recommendations
Option 1: + Perfect Vigour. This would make thematic sense and improve his mobility and tankiness throughout the game.
Option 2: Bloodforged armour price reduction. Make this a 70ish gold ability so Grimgor has a hope of blasting his way to a target that matters.
Option 3: Make You're Next an ability that can target any unit, not just lords/heroes.

Be interested in other recommendations or suggestions.

TL;DR: Never a good reason to tank Grimgor over Skarsnik because 2 of Grimgor's key abilities only target lords/heroes and he lacks mobility to make an impact. GS also can't threaten enemy enough at range to draw enemy to fight Grimgor.

Comments

  • Deep_echo_soundDeep_echo_sound Registered Users Posts: 601
    My suggestions for consistency.

    Armour partially works against A.P. damage (30% or so), armour do not go down with fatigue. Melee defence do, with same decrease as melee attack now.
    And full knockdown immunity for him and other lords and heroes.
    Then.

    Grimgor Ironhide.
    Cost +100, to 1500 gold.
    +6 speed and charge speed at least. 38 to 44.
    Armour -10. Yep, he has no helmet. And it was lower originally.
    H.P. +600 on ultra.
    +13 M.D. to 58.
    "You're next!" works for all units! Just like Imrik's "Lord of dragons". You fight all units, and often enemy large units, while will not catch Alarielle to duel.
    "Best of Da Best" - constant effect without any conditions. Removed M.D. effect. Just bonus 11% ward save. 200 gold cost.



    Blood dragon vampire lord.
    "Honor in death" ability should also be constant without conditions, and 250 gold cost.
  • ShevaTsarShevaTsar Registered Users Posts: 432
    edited February 28
    "GS also can't threaten enemy enough at range to draw enemy to fight Grimgor. "

    Lmao.
    Last time i checked GS was full of undercosted and effective ranged units.

  • DaBoyzAreBackInTownDaBoyzAreBackInTown Registered Users Posts: 446
    ShevaTsar said:

    "GS also can't threaten enemy enough at range to draw enemy to fight Grimgor. "

    Lmao.
    Last time i checked GS was full of undercosted and effective ranged units.

    Yea yea, High Elves have bad matchups into GS, we get it. They have great matchups into all undead though, factions that GS struggle with. Does that mean Sisters of Averlorn are "undercosted and effective ranged units"?

    Look at the faction/game as a whole and saying GS have strong range is pretty myopic position to take. Every faction has some bad/some good matchups, just cause HE struggle vs GS doesn't make the whole faction op.
  • ShevaTsarShevaTsar Registered Users Posts: 432

    ShevaTsar said:

    "GS also can't threaten enemy enough at range to draw enemy to fight Grimgor. "

    Lmao.
    Last time i checked GS was full of undercosted and effective ranged units.

    Yea yea, High Elves have bad matchups into GS, we get it. They have great matchups into all undead though, factions that GS struggle with. Does that mean Sisters of Averlorn are "undercosted and effective ranged units"?

    Look at the faction/game as a whole and saying GS have strong range is pretty myopic position to take. Every faction has some bad/some good matchups, just cause HE struggle vs GS doesn't make the whole faction op.
    Are you suggesting GS range units are only overperforming against HE? Surely you wouldn't.
    Once again last time i checked they were picked and effective against all factions.

  • ShevaTsarShevaTsar Registered Users Posts: 432
    If Spider Archers, Orc Archers all variants, Doom divers , Vindictive Glare, Spirit Leech are not "good enough" range options then surely almost no faction reached that threeshold of "good enough" range pressure.

    GS need nerfs before thinking about any buff, preferably they'd get both at the same time, but units like Grom, Stone Trolls, Spider Archers need the nerf bat at all cost.

  • DaBoyzAreBackInTownDaBoyzAreBackInTown Registered Users Posts: 446
    ShevaTsar said:

    ShevaTsar said:

    "GS also can't threaten enemy enough at range to draw enemy to fight Grimgor. "

    Lmao.
    Last time i checked GS was full of undercosted and effective ranged units.

    Yea yea, High Elves have bad matchups into GS, we get it. They have great matchups into all undead though, factions that GS struggle with. Does that mean Sisters of Averlorn are "undercosted and effective ranged units"?

    Look at the faction/game as a whole and saying GS have strong range is pretty myopic position to take. Every faction has some bad/some good matchups, just cause HE struggle vs GS doesn't make the whole faction op.
    Are you suggesting GS range units are only overperforming against HE? Surely you wouldn't.
    Once again last time i checked they were picked and effective against all factions.
    Let me guess which ranged unit you are talking about, GS skirmishers? The dreaded FGSRA? The diabolical goblin wolf rider archer?

    They overperform against the target they are intended to overperform against which is enemy skirmish cav/skirmish flyers. Against all other targets they are very average with far lower dps (and in particular AP) than any other skirmish cav in the game. People just wet themselves when being shot at by skirmish cav for some reason instead of doing the maths on how much damage it is actually doing.

    Running mass skirmish cav builds into GS is a L2P issue, not a balance issue. Like taking massed elite cav against Dwarfs and then complaining about how cannons are OP, or massed range vs Beastmen and complaining that your backline keeps getting shutdown, or armoured SEMs into Wood Elves and complaining when they get shot to pieces.

    Like I said HE's have a bad matchup into GS, it is what it is but not every thread about GS needs to turn into weeping about that. Just ban it and move on.

  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 10,514
    GS also can't threaten enemy enough at range to draw enemy to fight Grimgor.


    That is not true the slightest.


    Grimgor has only 1 problem currently and that is Black Orc Big Boss ITP AURA

    IF Grimgor was the one who had it than He would see play to support Troll armies and have a support aura that actually suits him, Though issue is that removing it from BOBB could mean that character doesnt get used, Perhaps for now just ADD it to Grimgor without removing it from BOBB and see if that sees him taken more if NOT than remove from BOBB and replace it with an active ability on BOBB and Grimgor Keeps the permanent one.
  • BovineKingBovineKing Registered Users Posts: 403
    Last I check savage orc arrow boys trade well with most non magic ranged units.
  • DaBoyzAreBackInTownDaBoyzAreBackInTown Registered Users Posts: 446
    ShevaTsar said:

    If Spider Archers, Orc Archers all variants, Doom divers , Vindictive Glare, Spirit Leech are not "good enough" range options then surely almost no faction reached that threeshold of "good enough" range pressure.

    GS need nerfs before thinking about any buff, preferably they'd get both at the same time, but units like Grom, Stone Trolls, Spider Archers need the nerf bat at all cost.

    None of those will result in a lord/hero being sent in to shut them down which is the main point, so Grimgor's abilities won't work on them. Noone is going to keep Grimgor in the backline protecting doom divers in case they send Louen to take them out. Even if they were going to send something like that, once again why would you not want Skarsnik here instead?

    In regarsd to the rest there is no chance of nerfs to Stone Trolls, would put it as very unlikely for FGSRA, and possibly some sort of token nerf for Grom.

    1/3 GS matchups are even (Emp, Dwarf, Skaven, WE, Bret), 1/3 are opponent favoured (Undead, Lizards), then 1/3 are GS favoured to some degree (HE, DE, Norsca, Chaos, Beastmen).

    Beastmen and DE seem likely for next lord pack so should fix them right up, Chaos/Norsca will be getting some love in game 3 which will sort them, which just leaves HE who are always going to have a rough time vs GS.
  • MamaLuigiMamaLuigi Registered Users Posts: 119
    Use a troll hag with mither... grimgor can be sent in much more easily on the target now
  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 8,664
    ShevaTsar said:

    Lmao.
    Last time i checked GS was full of undercosted and effective ranged units.

    Lmao.
    Last time i checked elves was full of undercosted and effective ranged units.

    There easily fixed.

    Last I check savage orc arrow boys trade well with most non magic ranged units.

    Makes no sense why they shouldnt. Silverins destroy big uns, so we all know how stupid for them to have everything far superior than orks
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  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 8,664
    Grimgor is still by far one of the weakest ork lords when he pretty much shouldve been top 3 pick.

    Hes just simply not a viable lord.

    Best if da best is a frikking joke, it should’ve been 50m any enemy unit
    NOT some pathetic 30m character trigger

    Anyone can easily ignore grimgor being a garbage footlord he is.

    Ure next is also damn weak, 24s seriously what a joke, bare min should be 36s or 45s. Which noob even let their character near grimgor, just throw 2 swordsman on him and hes done
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  • The_real_FAUSTThe_real_FAUST Registered Users Posts: 1,349
    Disagree with just about all those buffs.

    Compare him to any dwarf lord and see how much better he is.

    GS have an embarrassment of riches in Almost every category, they are more than in a decent spot.

    Overbuffing grimgor is madness I'm afraid.

    I'm also fed up of increasingly overpowered Lords and heroes affecting the game. Its rare I have reason to agree/watch legend of total war but he is right. Characters have got too strong.

    44 speed grimgor! What on Earth.
  • Deep_echo_soundDeep_echo_sound Registered Users Posts: 601
    95 speed Throt is fine, but 44 speed Grimgor is bad? Nice.

    Most of the melee foot lords have 2 main problems. Mobility and M.D. This is after we will fix knockdown, of course.
    Foot lords should be on the same power level as other factions' dragon lords. But slower and with a less mass. That's it.
    Dwarfs and greenskins alike, say Grimgor, are not some cheap crap. They are overpowered legendary melee champions.
    And this should be represented in the game.
    More price - more power.
    Not 1 group of factions have dragon lords with 2000+ cost, and other faction - 1000-1400 lords with crap stats, low speed. Poor budget trash. - Nope to this.

    And dwarfs, except Gotrek (+4) and thrones mounts (+4) need +6 speed across all basic lords and heroes. Legendary - +8 for Belegar and +10 for Grombrindal and Ungrim. With more M.D. here and there.


    And let's be honest, streamer with 300K+ audience constantly says that Grimgor is still very bad. And he thinks that he is the worst legendary lord in culture. Personally watched tier list video and some streams fighting with wood elves vs greenskins.
    What it was about is a new 95 speed, 3500 mass, tons of melee defence brood horrors riding heroes and A.I. stupidness, so it can be abused by magic and everything else.

    So it is fair to say it is not so about "heroes" in general, but it is more about new insane brood horror mounts and A.I. stupidness.
  • The_real_FAUSTThe_real_FAUST Registered Users Posts: 1,349
    edited March 1

    95 speed Throt is fine, but 44 speed Grimgor is bad? Nice.

    Most of the melee foot lords have 2 main problems. Mobility and M.D. This is after we will fix knockdown, of course.
    Foot lords should be on the same power level as other factions' dragon lords. But slower and with a less mass. That's it.
    Dwarfs and greenskins alike, say Grimgor, are not some cheap crap. They are overpowered legendary melee champions.
    And this should be represented in the game.
    More price - more power.
    Not 1 group of factions have dragon lords with 2000+ cost, and other faction - 1000-1400 lords with crap stats, low speed. Poor budget trash. - Nope to this.

    And dwarfs, except Gotrek (+4) and thrones mounts (+4) need +6 speed across all basic lords and heroes. Legendary - +8 for Belegar and +10 for Grombrindal and Ungrim. With more M.D. here and there.


    And let's be honest, streamer with 300K+ audience constantly says that Grimgor is still very bad. And he thinks that he is the worst legendary lord in culture. Personally watched tier list video and some streams fighting with wood elves vs greenskins.
    What it was about is a new 95 speed, 3500 mass, tons of melee defence brood horrors riding heroes and A.I. stupidness, so it can be abused by magic and everything else.

    So it is fair to say it is not so about "heroes" in general, but it is more about new insane brood horror mounts and A.I. stupidness.

    Literally no one thinks 95 speed throt is fine.

    And no, dawi Lords and characters don't need more speed.
  • Darthplagueis13Darthplagueis13 Registered Users Posts: 519
    OK, a few general statements:

    1: Yes, from a damage perspective Savage Arrer Boyz can trade relatively well into other Archers. But they also get ouranged by a lot of other ranged units, including Empire Crossbowmen, literally all Elven Archers in the game and Bretonnian Peasant Archers, so it's more about trying to use that to your advantage than just outshooting them (though there's quite a few units that can do that as well).

    2: A big difference between Greenskin lords and dwarfen lords is that dwarfen lords fall in line with their roster. Quite simply put, whilst lords like Grombrindal might not be able to catch lords from other factions, at least they can keep pace with their own armies. Because the dwarfs are slow anyways, having slow lords doesn't really drag them down additonally and most builds (not including straight-up Slayer spam, I guess) aren't really gonna move all that much, just getting into position and then pressuring the enemy with efficient ranged troops to take the initiative. Greenskins on the other hand are a rush faction that relies a lot on light skirmish cav and monstrous infantry. Since the main infantry core is actually on the slower side of things, you need your lords to either be mobile (Wurrzag, Azhag, Grom) or have a lot of Battlefield control (Skarsnik) to hold it all together.


    That's where the problem for Grimgor comes in. He has neither, really. Sure, if you do something really stupid, like take Belegar and just rush him in head first he's gonna get chopped to bits, but not allowing your lord to get caught by Grimgor is pretty dang easy, even with the speed debuff from You're Next.

    Last but not least, I'd like to be clear about something:

    "But this faction is too powerful anyways" is not a viable response to balancing discussions regarding specific and underused units. I get that you can have a bit of a kneejerk reaction when seeing demands to buff something from a faction you are bad playing against, but it's just whataboutism. One of the main complaints I've seen about Greenskins is that players are having difficulties sniping Grom (unsurprisingly so, since that character specifically seems to have been built with the fact in mind that Greenskin lords previously were notoriously easy to snipe). Well, guess what, we are talking about Grimgor and any build that uses Grimgor is not gonna have Grom on the field. The more variety a faction can pick from, the less likely you are to always run into the same old frustrating meta builds, and right now, two of the Greenskin LL's are a risk at best and a liability at worst, those being Grimgor (lack of mobility or battlefield control, extremely difficult to really get good value from) and Azhag (just very mediocre stats across the board, quite squishy in melee, kind of difficult to find a niche for him since he's not great on foot and the greenskins don't really have matchups where they can afford bringing a flying lord because he's either at risk from tempest, gooning or powerful ranged units, plus there's now troll hags with the lore of death so no reason to really bring him).
  • mightygloinmightygloin Karaz-a-KarakRegistered Users Posts: 4,006
    He's actually pretty strong in 1v1 now, that is if anybody wants to fight him. His new ranged hex is bonkers, makes his target literally **** for a while. Also he gets 55 MD (wow almost as good as Allarielle!) and + 11% ward save in duels which makes him way more tanky than someone like Ungrim (but still not the most tanky one sure). He's even got a bomb to extricate himself from the chaff.

    What he lacks is some form of utility. As been told million times he could get one of BOBB's auras who is overloaded for a generic hero anyway.
  • WitchbladeWitchblade Registered Users Posts: 953
    Take the Immunity to Psychology aura from BOBB and give it to Grimgor. 2 Big problems solved at the same time. BOBB could get +5 anti-inf to compensate, or -50 gold.
  • BovineKingBovineKing Registered Users Posts: 403
    Sure they get out ranged yet if I wanted to test them vs crossbow men or peasant archers or even base WE archers they would probably still win. Yes I understand that there are better ranged factions that is also lore friendly.

    Yet the ranged greenskins do have is fantastic against LM, BM probably even vampires, chaos and norsca though I confess I don’t know if it’s relevant in those matchups. Also from what I’ve seen of tournament play greenskins do pretty good vs empire. Elves are good at bows that’s their thing dwarves are good gun powder etc.
  • ThibixMagnusThibixMagnus Registered Users Posts: 627
    edited March 1
    The bobb aura would be nice, but a shame it doesn't synergies with black orcs. I would love a BO oriented support from Grimgor, either a general aura that synergises well with them (dunno, more MD when losing combat), or an outright BO-only buff (Da Immortulz in a AoE).

    I don't see why we don't have these sort of target-specific buffs in mutliplayer, would add diversity to the game (grimgor and BOs, ungrim and slayers, etc). As mentioned elsewhere, Grom's aura could be more tailored to goblins.
  • ShevaTsarShevaTsar Registered Users Posts: 432
    edited March 1

    ShevaTsar said:

    If Spider Archers, Orc Archers all variants, Doom divers , Vindictive Glare, Spirit Leech are not "good enough" range options then surely almost no faction reached that threeshold of "good enough" range pressure.

    GS need nerfs before thinking about any buff, preferably they'd get both at the same time, but units like Grom, Stone Trolls, Spider Archers need the nerf bat at all cost.

    None of those will result in a lord/hero being sent in to shut them down which is the main point, so Grimgor's abilities won't work on them. Noone is going to keep Grimgor in the backline protecting doom divers in case they send Louen to take them out. Even if they were going to send something like that, once again why would you not want Skarsnik here instead?

    In regarsd to the rest there is no chance of nerfs to Stone Trolls, would put it as very unlikely for FGSRA, and possibly some sort of token nerf for Grom.

    1/3 GS matchups are even (Emp, Dwarf, Skaven, WE, Bret), 1/3 are opponent favoured (Undead, Lizards), then 1/3 are GS favoured to some degree (HE, DE, Norsca, Chaos, Beastmen).

    Beastmen and DE seem likely for next lord pack so should fix them right up, Chaos/Norsca will be getting some love in game 3 which will sort them, which just leaves HE who are always going to have a rough time vs GS.

    I mean if there is a faction that forces someone to be dumb enough to send his lord/hero against its range then say its name i'm pretty curious lol. Do you send your lord to shut down WE skirmish units?

    Also i don't know how you can get the confidence of such bold claims but i'd rather see what the metrics about those units are, and hopefully CA will pay close attention to them. From my point of view i see some indirect signs that those units are overtuned, be it the synergy, the way they are costed and how they are auto picks with good results.

    Finally i don't agree that WE is even, it is heavily GS sided but even that put aside there are not much faction that can say they have such advantageous and balanced MU in the game.

    But it's good that you mention that, they really should reduce Fermented Fungi range to be closer to "You're Next", these kind of abilities should have some counterplay or take some brain to use.

  • DaBoyzAreBackInTownDaBoyzAreBackInTown Registered Users Posts: 446
    edited March 1
    ShevaTsar said:

    ShevaTsar said:

    If Spider Archers, Orc Archers all variants, Doom divers , Vindictive Glare, Spirit Leech are not "good enough" range options then surely almost no faction reached that threeshold of "good enough" range pressure.

    GS need nerfs before thinking about any buff, preferably they'd get both at the same time, but units like Grom, Stone Trolls, Spider Archers need the nerf bat at all cost.

    None of those will result in a lord/hero being sent in to shut them down which is the main point, so Grimgor's abilities won't work on them. Noone is going to keep Grimgor in the backline protecting doom divers in case they send Louen to take them out. Even if they were going to send something like that, once again why would you not want Skarsnik here instead?

    In regarsd to the rest there is no chance of nerfs to Stone Trolls, would put it as very unlikely for FGSRA, and possibly some sort of token nerf for Grom.

    1/3 GS matchups are even (Emp, Dwarf, Skaven, WE, Bret), 1/3 are opponent favoured (Undead, Lizards), then 1/3 are GS favoured to some degree (HE, DE, Norsca, Chaos, Beastmen).

    Beastmen and DE seem likely for next lord pack so should fix them right up, Chaos/Norsca will be getting some love in game 3 which will sort them, which just leaves HE who are always going to have a rough time vs GS.

    I mean if there is a faction that forces someone to be dumb enough to send his lord/hero against its range then say its name i'm pretty curious lol. Do you send your lord to shut down WE skirmish units?

    Also i don't know how you can get the confidence of such bold claims but i'd rather see what the metrics about those units are, and hopefully CA will pay close attention to them. From my point of view i see some indirect signs that those units are overtuned, be it the synergy, the way they are costed and how they are auto picks with good results.

    Finally i don't agree that WE is even, it is heavily GS sided but even that put aside there are not much faction that can say they have such advantageous and balanced MU in the game.

    But it's good that you mention that, they really should reduce Fermented Fungi range to be closer to "You're Next", these kind of abilities should have some counterplay or take some brain to use.
    Just obvious when looking at Stone Trolls outside of the High Elf matchup that they are a decent unit but nothing particularly special at their price point. Just so happens that they are basically a "High Elf Troll" in that they pay for a bunch of resistances and stats that just so happen to perfectly counter High Elves. Armour + missile resist hurt the high elf ability to kill with cheaper range and non-ap cav, enhanced WS means they knock High Elves out of MP faster, Magic resist makes their cheaper flyers all perform worse vs them, and the combo of magic resist + missile resist neuters SoA against them.

    But being good against 1 faction doesn't mean they'll be nerfed cause High Elves will always have a relatively tough matchup into GS, just the way it is based on roster designs.

    If you think WE vs GS is GS favoured then just proves my point, definitely a L2P issue. Ill send you a DM and we can organise a few games where I can show you some builds.

    EDIT: Not sure what you mean about Fungi vs You're Next range as they already have the same range. Which is pretty funny thing to get wrong as you just accidentally acknowledged that Fungi takes skill to use while claiming it is a brainless ability.
    Post edited by DaBoyzAreBackInTown on
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 10,514
    I think We vs GS is so GS favoured that its a stupid match-up, id give it 70-30 to GS at this stage, id rather fight bretonnia than GS as WE's, Grom + Big uns are the issue, stone trolls dont even matter at all.
  • DaBoyzAreBackInTownDaBoyzAreBackInTown Registered Users Posts: 446

    I think We vs GS is so GS favoured that its a stupid match-up, id give it 70-30 to GS at this stage, id rather fight bretonnia than GS as WE's, Grom + Big uns are the issue, stone trolls dont even matter at all.

    Yea but a lot of old school wood elf players first impulse is always to kite (or triple waywatchers and protect, as it is often called) which is a big mistake in this matchup. Wood Elves have significant other strengths now and has always been the strongest elf faction into the Greenskins. Just cause players think Zoats aren't pretty enough to be on the WE roster or 15-20 stacks are low skill builds doesn't mean that they aren't very strong build options in this matchup.

    I'm not knocking playing kite builds in general, but they aren't always going to be the optimal strategy in every matchup, just the way it is. It would be like playing High Elves vs Dark Elves and struggling because you refuse to play kite builds from the High Elf side. That is just feeding into what the Dark Elves want. Trying to kite Greenskins as the Wood Elves is the same thing.

    Just need to update your builds and strategy for this matchup in the new meta.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 10,514
    edited March 2

    I think We vs GS is so GS favoured that its a stupid match-up, id give it 70-30 to GS at this stage, id rather fight bretonnia than GS as WE's, Grom + Big uns are the issue, stone trolls dont even matter at all.

    Yea but a lot of old school wood elf players first impulse is always to kite (or triple waywatchers and protect, as it is often called) which is a big mistake in this matchup. Wood Elves have significant other strengths now and has always been the strongest elf faction into the Greenskins. Just cause players think Zoats aren't pretty enough to be on the WE roster or 15-20 stacks are low skill builds doesn't mean that they aren't very strong build options in this matchup.

    I'm not knocking playing kite builds in general, but they aren't always going to be the optimal strategy in every matchup, just the way it is. It would be like playing High Elves vs Dark Elves and struggling because you refuse to play kite builds from the High Elf side. That is just feeding into what the Dark Elves want. Trying to kite Greenskins as the Wood Elves is the same thing.

    Just need to update your builds and strategy for this matchup in the new meta.
    I dont know why you assume i only tried kite here...its wrong assumption, i did rush, i did kite, i did 20 stacks all die horribly to GS. I really dont know at all where in any of my posts on WE vs GS it mentions kite either. Kite was never the go to option vs GS anyway because of how much HP they have and stupid worthelss untis to shoot at in terms of gold value. Biguns munch thru WE infantry and cav, combine it with 400g idiot spider riders and grom and u dont have a front line as WE's, only aproach that can have an effect is druthu army but than u hope GS did not bring mass archers which they very well can.

    Its such a horrid match-up in my view.
  • mightygloinmightygloin Karaz-a-KarakRegistered Users Posts: 4,006

    The bobb aura would be nice, but a shame it doesn't synergies with black orcs. I would love a BO oriented support from Grimgor, either a general aura that synergises well with them (dunno, more MD when losing combat), or an outright BO-only buff (Da Immortulz in a AoE).

    I don't see why we don't have these sort of target-specific buffs in mutliplayer, would add diversity to the game (grimgor and BOs, ungrim and slayers, etc). As mentioned elsewhere, Grom's aura could be more tailored to goblins.

    The last DLC introduced exactly that aka buffs targeting "Clan Moulder monsters" and monsters with that tag. Would be cool if this is expanded.
  • ThibixMagnusThibixMagnus Registered Users Posts: 627

    The bobb aura would be nice, but a shame it doesn't synergies with black orcs. I would love a BO oriented support from Grimgor, either a general aura that synergises well with them (dunno, more MD when losing combat), or an outright BO-only buff (Da Immortulz in a AoE).

    I don't see why we don't have these sort of target-specific buffs in mutliplayer, would add diversity to the game (grimgor and BOs, ungrim and slayers, etc). As mentioned elsewhere, Grom's aura could be more tailored to goblins.

    The last DLC introduced exactly that aka buffs targeting "Clan Moulder monsters" and monsters with that tag. Would be cool if this is expanded.
    oh indeed, had tried too hard to ignore skaven regrowth. Constructs are actually a similar tag. So yeah, more would be great as long as it's not black orc nehek.
  • BovineKingBovineKing Registered Users Posts: 403
    Lotus is correct big un rush is hard to stop as WE it’s one of those scenarios that cost effective unit basically can cary. I’ve tried it’s myself it’s not realistic. Though it does come down to knowledge matchup greenskin player might bring goblin rush or cavalry centric build and those do terrible.
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 5,997
    edited March 3
    I would like to second ITP aura to Grimgor, and also give him +5 Ld.
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