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Powerful bound abilities should have only 1 charge.

Black_PhillipBlack_Phillip Registered Users Posts: 620
edited March 1 in Balancing Discussions
Playing High Elves is a nightmare against Mazdamundi and Skarsnik. Their units are expensive and having 2 Ruination of Cities, 2 Banishments, or 3 mushroom caps delete expensive units until HE have nothing much left feels really unfair. A rampaging unit of dragon princes is most likely gone in one go. That's an ability that costs less than 200 gold deleting a 1400 unit. I think bound abilities this strong should have only 1 charge. They would still have ton of value and it wouldn't force single entity spam to survive all these bound vortexes. Ariel would be another example of having strong bound abilities that should be brought down to one charge.

Comments

  • hanenhanen Registered Users Posts: 563
    So... one use on Star of Avelorn as well?
  • Black_PhillipBlack_Phillip Registered Users Posts: 620
    edited March 1
    hanen said:

    So... one use on Star of Avelorn as well?

    Lol this obsession some people still have with star makes me laugh. I think bound buffs, debuffs, and healing is fine with how many charges they have. Star is not as op as some people say it is. People just see the health bar go up and get upset but HE hps are low and their SEMs don’t have high armor. Alarielle with Star is no autopick or anything, often Teclis is taken instead. Dragons are still usually a bad pick even with Star because of how vulnerable they are to missiles and how easily they get trapped on the ground. Star at 2 charges is fine it’s only op to players who go straight for the lord or sem snipe and not op to the players that figured out the way you kill HE is by overwhelming everything else instead.
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 30,602

    hanen said:

    So... one use on Star of Avelorn as well?

    Lol this obsession some people still have with star makes me laugh. I think bound buffs, debuffs, and healing is fine with how many charges they have. Star is not as op as some people say it is. People just see the health bar go up and get upset but HE hps are low and their SEMs don’t have high armor. Alarielle with Star is no autopick or anything, often Teclis is taken instead. Dragons are still usually a bad pick even with Star because of how vulnerable they are to missiles and how easily they get trapped on the ground. Star at 2 charges is fine.
    Sorry, either you make that universal or you don't. Special pleading for HE bound abilities just reveals your bias and your intent.

  • Black_PhillipBlack_Phillip Registered Users Posts: 620

    hanen said:

    So... one use on Star of Avelorn as well?

    Lol this obsession some people still have with star makes me laugh. I think bound buffs, debuffs, and healing is fine with how many charges they have. Star is not as op as some people say it is. People just see the health bar go up and get upset but HE hps are low and their SEMs don’t have high armor. Alarielle with Star is no autopick or anything, often Teclis is taken instead. Dragons are still usually a bad pick even with Star because of how vulnerable they are to missiles and how easily they get trapped on the ground. Star at 2 charges is fine.
    Sorry, either you make that universal or you don't. Special pleading for HE bound abilities just reveals your bias and your intent.
    I’m just talking about bound abilities that delete units, mainly vortexes and mushroom cap because of their tendency to kill a unit or several outright and being undodgeable. Other abilities are fine. Durthu has strong aoes but they don’t completely destroy a unit and he’s avoidable so they’re fine. Fiery convocation is very easy to dodge so it is fine.

    Teclis net star dragon breath is way more cheesy than star can be. I don’t see good players complain about star anymore. It’s the inexperienced ones that get hyper-focused on sniping Lords and SEMs from the start of the game that complain about it. This isn’t the gotcha you think it is.
  • hanenhanen Registered Users Posts: 563
    I dont think any of the abilties/items you mentioned need a nerf, except for the shrooms perhaps as it removes player interaction.

    Slaan bound spells are dodgable. And if they hit rarely damage more than one unit unless your micro is off.
  • Loupi_Loupi_ Registered Users Posts: 2,482
    edited March 1
    hanen said:

    I dont think any of the abilties/items you mentioned need a nerf, except for the shrooms perhaps as it removes player interaction.

    Slaan bound spells are dodgable. And if they hit rarely damage more than one unit unless your micro is off.

    I think its mostly an issue with mazdamundi who can net a large area and hit you with bound banishment and ruination at the same time.

    Ariels acorn is much too strong at the moment, either 1 less cast or reduce the AP
  • Black_PhillipBlack_Phillip Registered Users Posts: 620
    edited March 1
    hanen said:

    I dont think any of the abilties/items you mentioned need a nerf, except for the shrooms perhaps as it removes player interaction.

    Slaan bound spells are dodgable. And if they hit rarely damage more than one unit unless your micro is off.

    I don’t recall Banishment being dodgeable even if you see banishment coming down ahead of time and even if your infantry unit is not in combat. Or maybe it’s just if you cast it at the same time archers are firing since they can’t move during this animation. It’s definitely not dodgeable when infantry is in combat, which is when you want to cast it anyways. It’s dodgeable by cav unless they’re stuck in combat, which happens a lot. Ruination of cities is slightly more dodgeable but still difficult for infantry to dodge it.
  • tank3487tank3487 Member Registered Users Posts: 2,283
    edited March 1
    hanen said:


    Slaan bound spells are dodgable.

    Good luck dodging Mazda net+delete. Same issue are with Teclis bound+net insta deleting any infantry unit.
    Still i do not see those abilities being stronger than Star. Do not forget that you can pick unit that synergy well with Star, but cannot pick units for you opponent army.
  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 8,664
    That bad lol, how dare theres spells that dmg helf. Must nerf.
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  • Noob_for_LifeNoob_for_Life Registered Users Posts: 468
    Yea I don’t think there’s a need to single these abilities out when there is arguably stronger and more egregious abilities out there such as instant summons.
  • Black_PhillipBlack_Phillip Registered Users Posts: 620
    edited March 1

    Yea I don’t think there’s a need to single these abilities out when there is arguably stronger and more egregious abilities out there such as instant summons.

    Oh I hate those too and I’m a TK main

  • hanenhanen Registered Users Posts: 563
    tank3487 said:

    hanen said:


    Slaan bound spells are dodgable.

    Good luck dodging Mazda net+delete. Same issue are with Teclis bound+net insta deleting any infantry unit.
    Still i do not see those abilities being stronger than Star. Do not forget that you can pick unit that synergy well with Star, but cannot pick units for you opponent army.
    I dont think all Slaans should be nerfed because of Mazda. Remove net from him then.
  • Black_PhillipBlack_Phillip Registered Users Posts: 620
    yst said:

    That bad lol, how dare theres spells that dmg helf. Must nerf.

    Oh look who’s contributing absolutely nothing except toxicity to the forums again.
  • Black_PhillipBlack_Phillip Registered Users Posts: 620
    tank3487 said:

    hanen said:


    Slaan bound spells are dodgable.

    Good luck dodging Mazda net+delete. Same issue are with Teclis bound+net insta deleting any infantry unit.
    Still i do not see those abilities being stronger than Star. Do not forget that you can pick unit that synergy well with Star, but cannot pick units for you opponent army.
    Yes that’s true it depends on the matchup. But factions that need to bring more elite infantry or cavalry I’d rather have bound banishment than star of a Avelorn because star requires you to stay in combat to be effective and banishment can instantly win you an engagement. However if your up against a faction where they mostly go wide with cheaper cav and infantry or mostly single entities, i’d go star. But i’d gladly have star be one charge in exchange for bound vortexes and mushroom cap becoming one charge.

    And @Noob_for_Life also brought a good point about bound summons. I wouldn’t mind if those were one charge. Drychas, Arkhans, Noctilus, etc. It would be nice if realm of souls ushabti summon was taken out too in exchange for lower lord cost or if it has to be casted by the lord with limited range. It’s a ridiculous ability and feels lazily implemented.

  • Black_PhillipBlack_Phillip Registered Users Posts: 620
    edited March 1
    Also the majority of summon spells like zombie are too strong. They should increase the cooldown on those
  • AWizard_LizardAWizard_Lizard Registered Users Posts: 1,551
    Don't forget soulfire!!!! This thing has been flying under the radar for too long.
    Prettiest of the foot overlords.
  • MamaLuigiMamaLuigi Registered Users Posts: 119

    Don't forget soulfire!!!! This thing has been flying under the radar for too long.

    Yes especially considering volkmar's unbreakable nature it's very problematic IMO
  • SarmatiannsSarmatianns Registered Users Posts: 4,593
    edited March 1
    I'd cap all abilities bar some very basic ones, like Foe Seeker and Stand Your Ground equivalents.

    Anything else should have a cap of 2/3/4 depending on power level. Shake up the meta again! :)
  • Darthplagueis13Darthplagueis13 Registered Users Posts: 519

    I'd cap all abilities bar some very basic ones, like Foe Seeker and Stand Your Ground equivalents.

    Anything else should have a cap of 2/3/4 depending on power level. Shake up the meta again! :)

    That would make long battles even longer. Generally, the rule of thumb CA seems to use is that the abilities that get capped are:

    1: Any abilities that deal damage
    2: Any summons
    3: Most burst healing and all healing you can directly target allies with
    4: Bound spells that are free to cast

    Any abilities that are just temporary status changes (and aren't also just a free bound equivalent of a regular spell) tend to have long cooldowns but no caps and I feel like that is alright in terms of damaging. Like, why would Ghal Maraz run out of magic rune hammer juice and become unusable for the rest of the battle?
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 30,602


    Any abilities that are just temporary status changes (and aren't also just a free bound equivalent of a regular spell) tend to have long cooldowns but no caps and I feel like that is alright in terms of damaging. Like, why would Ghal Maraz run out of magic rune hammer juice and become unusable for the rest of the battle?

    Why would Ghal Maraz come with any on and off buttons at all?


  • saweendrasaweendra Registered Users Posts: 10,885


    Any abilities that are just temporary status changes (and aren't also just a free bound equivalent of a regular spell) tend to have long cooldowns but no caps and I feel like that is alright in terms of damaging. Like, why would Ghal Maraz run out of magic rune hammer juice and become unusable for the rest of the battle?

    Why would Ghal Maraz come with any on and off buttons at all?

    Didn't like kf only acess the true power of the hammer like once
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 30,602
    saweendra said:


    Any abilities that are just temporary status changes (and aren't also just a free bound equivalent of a regular spell) tend to have long cooldowns but no caps and I feel like that is alright in terms of damaging. Like, why would Ghal Maraz run out of magic rune hammer juice and become unusable for the rest of the battle?

    Why would Ghal Maraz come with any on and off buttons at all?

    Didn't like kf only acess the true power of the hammer like once
    The TT version of Ghal Maraz was a magical weapon, wounded automatically, suppressed armor saves and caused D3 wounds. It didn't come with any special abilities otherwise.

  • saweendrasaweendra Registered Users Posts: 10,885

    saweendra said:


    Any abilities that are just temporary status changes (and aren't also just a free bound equivalent of a regular spell) tend to have long cooldowns but no caps and I feel like that is alright in terms of damaging. Like, why would Ghal Maraz run out of magic rune hammer juice and become unusable for the rest of the battle?

    Why would Ghal Maraz come with any on and off buttons at all?

    Didn't like kf only acess the true power of the hammer like once
    The TT version of Ghal Maraz was a magical weapon, wounded automatically, suppressed armor saves and caused D3 wounds. It didn't come with any special abilities otherwise.
    Hmm so CA went with story than the TT rules with this one
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc
  • WojmirVonCarsteinWojmirVonCarstein Registered Users Posts: 1,419
    saweendra said:


    Any abilities that are just temporary status changes (and aren't also just a free bound equivalent of a regular spell) tend to have long cooldowns but no caps and I feel like that is alright in terms of damaging. Like, why would Ghal Maraz run out of magic rune hammer juice and become unusable for the rest of the battle?

    Why would Ghal Maraz come with any on and off buttons at all?

    Didn't like kf only acess the true power of the hammer like once
    Yeah and he basically became Sigmar incarnate for one turn which maxed out all his combat abilities to 10.
  • AmonkhetAmonkhet Registered Users Posts: 4,301

    Also the majority of summon spells like zombie are too strong. They should increase the cooldown on those

    Spotted the Helf main.
  • Black_PhillipBlack_Phillip Registered Users Posts: 620
    Amonkhet said:

    Also the majority of summon spells like zombie are too strong. They should increase the cooldown on those

    Spotted the Helf main.
    It has nothing to do with that. VC is also one of my main factions. It's kind of why I have Mannfred as my profile pic. And HE hard counter Coast and Counts anyways so it wouldn't even concern an HE main. Zombie summons being too strong is kind of obvious unless they're biased.
  • griffithxigriffithxi Registered Users Posts: 1,066
    I disagree with adding arbitrary caps on bound abilities and instead like balancing each ability individually.

    As far as HE units getting deleted by bound abilities that is an opportunity for counter play options to be adjusted and more to be added.
    Certain underutilized units and abilities serve as potential counters with the right buffs/adjustments.
    Eltharion unused helmet ability for example could serve to keep an ability like that from being able to kill models.
    Lore master of hoeth magic resistance aura could be helpful there too.
    I'm not saying these under used items are currently the greatest counter to the issue but with adjustments they could be turned into good solutions while also adding reasons for underused lords/heroes to see more play.
  • Black_PhillipBlack_Phillip Registered Users Posts: 620

    I disagree with adding arbitrary caps on bound abilities and instead like balancing each ability individually.

    As far as HE units getting deleted by bound abilities that is an opportunity for counter play options to be adjusted and more to be added.
    Certain underutilized units and abilities serve as potential counters with the right buffs/adjustments.
    Eltharion unused helmet ability for example could serve to keep an ability like that from being able to kill models.
    Lore master of hoeth magic resistance aura could be helpful there too.
    I'm not saying these under used items are currently the greatest counter to the issue but with adjustments they could be turned into good solutions while also adding reasons for underused lords/heroes to see more play.

    Yes I agree it would be better if each ability was looked at individually.
  • dag0netdag0net Registered Users Posts: 32
    edited March 7
    All abilities feed into a complex context. Why say things should be looked at individually, and then point out that it's likely your army already has mitigators, counters & it's own strengths to oppose with?

    Balancing an ability is bad, balancing a matchup is bad, b/c as soon as you're out of the context in which you balanced, there is no balance.

    [Aside] Ofc, some of this would be done away with by removing the (admittedly core to tw) blind army picks, because often it's not the ability or the unit that is too strong, it's the fact that one cannot prepare adequately in the selection screen for every strong possibility. More dlc & more units make this a bigger & bigger issue with every addition.

    Blind picks worked fine for stw, mtw & rtw, since then it's gotten sillier & sillier until we now have a situation where faction
    selection is at a point (eg) that had egypt banned as a faction in mp rtw....[/Aside] And this is the new normal.
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