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Skaven Nerfs

TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior MemberRegistered Users Posts: 34,001
1.Skaven Ambush is way stronger than LS because it allows one-sided reinforcements and it's trivially easy to buff it to near 100%. It's also the default attacking stance so you might get it even if you don't want to. Combined with all the mid-range firepower Skaven can bring to bear this is just overkill

-make it dependent on Skaven corruption (should only be an option at 50%+ corruption), remove reinforcements and cap the chance at 50%. Also, give Skaven a "normal" attack stance

2.Skaven settlement upgrading on capture sidesteps the growth nerfs from the last patch since you can still just pump a captured settlement to max level within the first 10-20 turns.

-restrict to T3 intitially, unlock T4 and T5 when you have researched two and four of the Greater Clan dependent research topics respectively (the ones that require a Greater Clan specific building to unlock)
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Comments

  • Slayer_Yannir#8069Slayer_Yannir#8069 Registered Users Posts: 2,635
    Seems reasonable.
    Formerly known as Yannir. Oaths have been taken.
  • SeswathaSeswatha Registered Users Posts: 4,821
    edited March 2021
    Good suggestions.

  • Goatforce#6625Goatforce#6625 Registered Users Posts: 8,449
    Yeah just played a LM campaign and the majority of times when I was attacked by the Skaven it seemed I was ambushed, which was frustrating.
  • Witch_KingWitch_King Registered Users Posts: 139
    I think that the ambush imbalance is solved by buffing ambush defence, not by nerfing the mechanic to the ground.
    Encamp stance should give something like +100% ambush defence chance or make you downright immune to ambush.
    With this you can choose how to handle the Skaven: if you go fast you risk, if you encamp every turn you are slower but you don't have to worry too much.
  • peabodyestate#9505peabodyestate#9505 Registered Users Posts: 1,589
    Reduce nuke by half damage. Reduce weapons teams damage by 30%.
  • Slayer_Yannir#8069Slayer_Yannir#8069 Registered Users Posts: 2,635

    Reduce nuke by half damage. Reduce weapons teams damage by 30%.

    I actually think nuke damage should be increased. It's a darn nuke.

    I think that the ambush imbalance is solved by buffing ambush defence, not by nerfing the mechanic to the ground.
    Encamp stance should give something like +100% ambush defence chance or make you downright immune to ambush.
    With this you can choose how to handle the Skaven: if you go fast you risk, if you encamp every turn you are slower but you don't have to worry too much.

    Yeah. Also this.
    Formerly known as Yannir. Oaths have been taken.
  • TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001
    edited March 2021

    I think that the ambush imbalance is solved by buffing ambush defence, not by nerfing the mechanic to the ground.
    Encamp stance should give something like +100% ambush defence chance or make you downright immune to ambush.
    With this you can choose how to handle the Skaven: if you go fast you risk, if you encamp every turn you are slower but you don't have to worry too much.

    No, it's Skaven Ambush that needs to be nerfhammered.

    If what you suggest is done then the only defense against getting cheesed by Skaven is to sacrifice 50% movement when fighting them which is a major disadvantage. That would actually buff Skaven hard.
  • General_Hijalti#1213General_Hijalti#1213 Registered Users Posts: 5,421

    I think that the ambush imbalance is solved by buffing ambush defence, not by nerfing the mechanic to the ground.
    Encamp stance should give something like +100% ambush defence chance or make you downright immune to ambush.
    With this you can choose how to handle the Skaven: if you go fast you risk, if you encamp every turn you are slower but you don't have to worry too much.

    It should be removed it makes no sense.
  • ERICdbsERICdbs CataloniaRegistered Users Posts: 638

    I think that the ambush imbalance is solved by buffing ambush defence, not by nerfing the mechanic to the ground.
    Encamp stance should give something like +100% ambush defence chance or make you downright immune to ambush.
    With this you can choose how to handle the Skaven: if you go fast you risk, if you encamp every turn you are slower but you don't have to worry too much.

    No, it's Skaven Ambush that needs to be nerfhammered.

    If what you suggest is done then the only defense against getting cheesed by Skaven is to sacrifice 50% movement when fighting them which is a major disadvantage. That would actually buff Skaven hard.
    Encamping is probably the worst stance right now, and giving it an ambush defence chance wouldn't buff skaven, it would make dealing with them easier. It's something that can be added regardless of potential changes to ambush success chance. ;)
  • TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001
    ERICdbs said:

    I think that the ambush imbalance is solved by buffing ambush defence, not by nerfing the mechanic to the ground.
    Encamp stance should give something like +100% ambush defence chance or make you downright immune to ambush.
    With this you can choose how to handle the Skaven: if you go fast you risk, if you encamp every turn you are slower but you don't have to worry too much.

    No, it's Skaven Ambush that needs to be nerfhammered.

    If what you suggest is done then the only defense against getting cheesed by Skaven is to sacrifice 50% movement when fighting them which is a major disadvantage. That would actually buff Skaven hard.
    Encamping is probably the worst stance right now, and giving it an ambush defence chance wouldn't buff skaven, it would make dealing with them easier. It's something that can be added regardless of potential changes to ambush success chance. ;)
    False, it's useful for the replenishment in enemy territory feature alone.

    Forcing the enemy to walk with half their movement range just because you have a broken mechanic at your disposal would be a MAJOR buff to Skaven and I'm absolutely opposed to it. Skaven absolutely don't need to be made even stronger.

    The ambush itself is the problem, so it needs to be nerfed directly.
  • Witch_KingWitch_King Registered Users Posts: 139
    Their ambush mechanic should be like attrition by corruption: you can't counter it without some downsides, you can either don't give a damn about it and take some losses or you move at half your movement capacaity per turn to counter it.
    Right now there's just one counter to their ambushes: sitting in a settlement, which is not fun.
    Rather than deleting the challenge altogether it's wiser to tune it so you have some ways to do something about it.
  • TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001

    Their ambush mechanic should be like attrition by corruption: you can't counter it without some downsides, you can either don't give a damn about it and take some losses or you move at half your movement capacaity per turn to counter it.
    Right now there's just one counter to their ambushes: sitting in a settlement, which is not fun.
    Rather than deleting the challenge altogether it's wiser to tune it so you have some ways to do something about it.

    And if you play Skaven yourself the game becomes even more boring if the AI's made to try and avoid ambushes that way because now you can just run laps around their armies. Awesome! As if Skaven aren't already way too boring.

    Nope, that solution is terrible and adds nothing but more buffs to Skaven.

    Nerf the ambush stance. I'd even be all for removing it completely and instead giving Skaven a free regular ambush stance. Skaven being able to move right up to enemy armies, even armies standing on their home turf and somehow forcing an ambush never made sense anyway.
  • Slayer_Yannir#8069Slayer_Yannir#8069 Registered Users Posts: 2,635

    ERICdbs said:

    I think that the ambush imbalance is solved by buffing ambush defence, not by nerfing the mechanic to the ground.
    Encamp stance should give something like +100% ambush defence chance or make you downright immune to ambush.
    With this you can choose how to handle the Skaven: if you go fast you risk, if you encamp every turn you are slower but you don't have to worry too much.

    No, it's Skaven Ambush that needs to be nerfhammered.

    If what you suggest is done then the only defense against getting cheesed by Skaven is to sacrifice 50% movement when fighting them which is a major disadvantage. That would actually buff Skaven hard.
    Encamping is probably the worst stance right now, and giving it an ambush defence chance wouldn't buff skaven, it would make dealing with them easier. It's something that can be added regardless of potential changes to ambush success chance. ;)
    False, it's useful for the replenishment in enemy territory feature alone.

    Forcing the enemy to walk with half their movement range just because you have a broken mechanic at your disposal would be a MAJOR buff to Skaven and I'm absolutely opposed to it. Skaven absolutely don't need to be made even stronger.

    The ambush itself is the problem, so it needs to be nerfed directly.
    One doesn't rule out the other.
    Skaven Stalk stance isn't unique, Beastmen and Alith Anar also have the stance. With Beastmen you can tie it to Chaos Corruption(which doesn't make sense but, hey, it's there) but with Alith Anar you don't really have anything else to curb the stance with. AA has 85% Ambush chance from level 1.
    So the issue isn't really skaven in origin. It's specific to the stance which is OP on every race it's on. Having 100% Ambush defense chance on Encamp stance fixes the issue completely whereas your suggestion is only a partial solution.
    Formerly known as Yannir. Oaths have been taken.
  • Pr4vda#6038Pr4vda#6038 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,326
    edited March 2021
    What also bother me is the Warp Bomb.

    I made a Dwarfs campaign recently and, combined with the skaven summon, AI can literraly blow away an entire unit while you can't do **** against that (so unfun). And as the player, it is damn OP against AI (so funny but not balanced).

    Imo such mechanic should work like a bloated corpse = garrisons get a new skaven slave units where the warp bomb is IN (that you can activate manually, or automatically explodes if the unit is at less than 75% or 50% HP for instance), so you can not just put them in skaven summons and annihilate everything.

    You still have a powerful tool at your disposal, but it can be counter by the player, and the cheese will be less powerful against AI.
    Team Dawis

    Dawis shall purge all their fallen Karaks, with the blood of the Greeskins and the skavens !
  • SteelRonin#4832SteelRonin#4832 Junior Member ChileRegistered Users Posts: 1,566
  • aMint1#4859aMint1#4859 Registered Users Posts: 1,244
    Capping it at 50% OR requiring 50% corruption should be sufficient to reign it in a lot. Doing both will just make it an ignorable mechanic. Encamped armies should be immune from ambush.
  • Beef545Beef545 Registered Users Posts: 764
    Skaven nerfs are always welcomed. Also nerf alith anthar since he's playing basically like a skaven and is a real disgrace to an elves race.
    The age of Men is over. The time of the Troll has come.
  • GreenColouredGreenColoured Registered Users Posts: 6,932
    I don't mind. They have too many toys that makes their campaigns too much of a breeze.

    But I rather their nerfs be directed to their Food mechanic, since the Undercity mechanic made it irrelevant as a resource.
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 11,394
    Goatforce said:

    Yeah just played a LM campaign and the majority of times when I was attacked by the Skaven it seemed I was ambushed, which was frustrating.

    I get the impression that the AI knows when it's going to get a successful ambush that turn, so it pulls out the "snipe the weakest stack in a group" maneouver when it knows it's going to get the ambush, and keeps its distance otherwise.
  • yolordmcswag#6132yolordmcswag#6132 Registered Users Posts: 4,259

    Their ambush mechanic should be like attrition by corruption: you can't counter it without some downsides, you can either don't give a damn about it and take some losses or you move at half your movement capacaity per turn to counter it.
    Right now there's just one counter to their ambushes: sitting in a settlement, which is not fun.
    Rather than deleting the challenge altogether it's wiser to tune it so you have some ways to do something about it.

    The whole burden should not be on the skaven's opponent however. The ambush stance is too strong in on itself compared to regular ambushes and lightning strikes. As OP said there should not be reinforcements in moving ambush attacks, it makes no sense an army moves up right next to you but you are still surprised by the attack. So as OP suggested, the ambush stance should be made separate from the normal move stance. IMO it should have certain drawbacks, like reduced camaign movement speed, no replenishment etc.
  • peabodyestate#9505peabodyestate#9505 Registered Users Posts: 1,589
    The current ambush rules could be left as is with Tretch, making it a uniqueish feature.
  • damon40000#7640damon40000#7640 Registered Users Posts: 1,866

    NO

    yes-yes
    BsFG dwarf
  • Reeks#2417Reeks#2417 Registered Users Posts: 10,255
    Agreed.



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    Nurgle is life

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  • Geremin#4928Geremin#4928 Registered Users Posts: 51
    I'll agree Skaven ambush needs to be nerfed. It is ridiculously annoying to play against - just feels unfun. I don't think though it needs to be gotten rid of for Alith Anar; because it's just for him right? If it's limited to his army then it's annoying but kind of ok.

    On Beastmen, I'm less annoyed because they can't spam armies like Skaven can. The annoyance with Skaven is not just guaranteed ambush but that the moment you see it, you know there are two+ reinforcing armies behind them; and your reinforcing armies are just standing there waiting to get hit.

    Maybe the point should be that ambush attack stance doesn't get reinforcements. So it's kinda like Lighting Strike - you can use it, but you have to go one-to-one. I'd be ok with that, I'm generally down for fighting a defensive ambush scenario - it's just annoying when you know you're outnumbered 3 stacks to 1 and have no chance of winning.

    The encampment suggestion I don't mind either but I'm inclined to agree that actually the stance itself is the problem and should be addressed - I like encampment and use it a lot so I don't agree it needs a boost.
  • ValzaanValzaan Registered Users Posts: 79

    ERICdbs said:

    I think that the ambush imbalance is solved by buffing ambush defence, not by nerfing the mechanic to the ground.
    Encamp stance should give something like +100% ambush defence chance or make you downright immune to ambush.
    With this you can choose how to handle the Skaven: if you go fast you risk, if you encamp every turn you are slower but you don't have to worry too much.

    No, it's Skaven Ambush that needs to be nerfhammered.

    If what you suggest is done then the only defense against getting cheesed by Skaven is to sacrifice 50% movement when fighting them which is a major disadvantage. That would actually buff Skaven hard.
    Encamping is probably the worst stance right now, and giving it an ambush defence chance wouldn't buff skaven, it would make dealing with them easier. It's something that can be added regardless of potential changes to ambush success chance. ;)
    False, it's useful for the replenishment in enemy territory feature alone.

    Forcing the enemy to walk with half their movement range just because you have a broken mechanic at your disposal would be a MAJOR buff to Skaven and I'm absolutely opposed to it. Skaven absolutely don't need to be made even stronger.

    The ambush itself is the problem, so it needs to be nerfed directly.
    It is not a buff to skaven because you could always play the same as before implementation. You can argue that is not a nerf, due to introduction of new issues.
    All that is gold does not glitter - Bilbo Baggins
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  • Tennisgolfboll#5877Tennisgolfboll#5877 Registered Users Posts: 13,302
    I like the ideas OP
    It needs to be pointed out that what people call "cheese" is just playing the game the way it actually exists not in some fictional way they think it is supposed to work.
  • paullevin93#1129paullevin93#1129 Registered Users Posts: 86
    Would it be better just to raise the price on some of the weapons teams? Maybe lower the leadership even further too? That might help.
  • SeswathaSeswatha Registered Users Posts: 4,821
    edited March 2021
    Weapon teams are balanced for MP, not vs AI which sucks at dealing with ranged units. The only one which is actually too strong and needs a nerf is PWM.

    Vs AI it's more of an issue of ranged being too strong in campaign in general due to buffstacking and AI limitations. Weapon teams aren't even the most OP full ranged doomstack. AI limitations are more difficult to fix but buffstacking for ranged units does warrant a nerf across the board.
    Post edited by Seswatha on

  • Captain_OzCaptain_Oz Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 81
    1.Skaven Ambush is way stronger than LS because it allows one-sided reinforcements and it's trivially easy to buff it to near 100%. It's also the default attacking stance so you might get it even if you don't want to. Combined with all the mid-range firepower Skaven can bring to bear this is just overkill

    -make it dependent on Skaven corruption (should only be an option at 50%+ corruption), remove reinforcements and cap the chance at 50%. Also, give Skaven a "normal" attack stance

    I completely agree about the strength of the skaven ambush. It is too strong and most importantly - too versatile. I agree with the removal of reinforcements on the offensive ambushes. However, I am not sure that linking offensive ambush versatility with with skaven corruption is the right way to go. The reason being that it means that skaven will become disproportionally stronger in allied territory compared to enemy territory. It is already very difficult to attack skaven cities and assess their true strength. That is why I think it would be bad to focus their strength in their own territory. Instead, I think they should recieve a nerf which affects them similarly in allied and enemy territory.

    As a first step I would introduce modification of ambush defence into more skills, perks and techs. This would give more races the tools needed to deal with offensive ambushes overall. In that way, they could adjust their strategy to deal with the threat of skaven ambushes. More than this has to be done, but I have not figured out exactly what I believe is the best course of action yet.
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