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Not interested in a Lizardmen v. Beastmen pack

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  • xDEMOSxxDEMOSx Registered Users Posts: 1,155
    edited March 2021
    If a race of game two is necessary we have 4 options:
    Skavem would be the DLC that I'm sure we would all love.
    DE that already has its complete list.
    HE who also received a good LP recently.
    and LZ, which lacks the troglodon and does not receive anything new a long time.

    LZ of 4 is the best option in general.
    If there is no way to have two factions of the game1, one for reasons beyond the will of the developers, there is nothing to do, to have LP and better than not to have LP.

    Do not buy the LP if you do not like it, that is obvious, game 3 is close, save the money and buy it, good if it is BM because they need a lot.


  • steam_165171714789pPAEKOHsteam_165171714789pPAEKOH Registered Users Posts: 855


    They're never going to demote already-existing LLs, people really need to stop acting like that's on the table. I'm not convinced that their current issues need more than a balance patch, other than some out of date skill trees.

    It might be true that they are never going to demote LL's but I don't understand agreeing with that. There are plenty of LL's that should be heroes and it would be a BETTER game if that were the case. How having Isabella be able to be in the same army as Vlad is a bad thing is beyond me. That's like saying if Gotrek was a LL and Felix was a LL then people would complain if they were put into an army together as an update. If Nakai or Tiqtaq'to were demoted to legendary heroes I would celebrate. Neither of those campaigns is very amazing.

    And as for WoC or Norsca. There seems little sense in updating WoC at this point with game 3 around the corner, everyone seems to understand that. Norsca is a little bit the same. They certainly could use another lord or two but with Kislev being a game 2 faction you would have to assume Norsca will get some attention. Heck, some arguments against Beastmen right now is that they are tied to Chaos and game 3 is the Chaos game. Technically all three of these factions might benefit the most by waiting until game 3, but Beastmen aren't really situated where game 3 will be.
  • NyxilisNyxilis Registered Users Posts: 6,733
    Emrysor said:

    Nyxilis said:

    So much wrong in the OP's opening statement.

    There is zero reason to lock any race to a number of lords just because of another. I don't sit and and wish harm on another race when the time for their extra lords is now. Should the BM be next they bloody well should get two.

    I don't care about your biases of preference trying to mess with a DLC drop. You don't want BM or LM? That's fine, I'm not going to define what you actual want. But get out of messing with the other two races when its their time. You are not predicting what will happen, you're calling for it to happen.

    Vampire Counts and Empire sitting in a stationary place? Both had major reworks and the Empire had DLC so it's a straight up fallacy to say they have been in a static position since 2017.

    Lots of players are also not jazzed about any game 1 race on any particular moment. Guess we better just never do anything again!

    Posters on this forum can perfectly state what they want or do not want. And all this is subjective about its their time or not. You need to understand some posters really do not give a crap about what races deserves a dlc or not. They got their favorites and are allowed to create threads to voice their opinion. You can of course just ignore it or read it then move on.
    Absolutely not, a forum is not 'sit down and shut up' because I don't like a position. We are very much allowed to tell people they are wrong. That's the point of debate. So I don't have to ignore it, or move on.
    ceshann said:

    Nyxilis said:

    So much wrong in the OP's opening statement.

    There is zero reason to lock any race to a number of lords just because of another. I don't sit and and wish harm on another race when the time for their extra lords is now. Should the BM be next they bloody well should get two.

    I don't care about your biases of preference trying to mess with a DLC drop. You don't want BM or LM? That's fine, I'm not going to define what you actual want. But get out of messing with the other two races when its their time. You are not predicting what will happen, you're calling for it to happen.

    Vampire Counts and Empire sitting in a stationary place? Both had major reworks and the Empire had DLC so it's a straight up fallacy to say they have been in a static position since 2017.

    Lots of players are also not jazzed about any game 1 race on any particular moment. Guess we better just never do anything again!

    I think we all need to have a sit down and talk about what agency we actually have in this entire process. I sincerely doubt CA is going on these forums, of all places, seeing a handful of contrarian opinions, and saying "Welp, I know we are weeks/months into the development process, but ______ doesn't like it, so back to the drawing board!"

    Some folks really need to step away from all of this...
    Forum, again. I do not understand why people get some idea that we shouldn't tell people they're wrong. This is not how forums work.
  • dodge33cymrudodge33cymru Registered Users Posts: 3,193
    ArneSo said:

    It is ridiculous how people try to deny content for the BM. BM are next and they will also get a FLC LL to get up to 5 LLs. There is no rule that says 4 is the max. That argument is completely nonsensical. CA said that there are no equal numbers and that some Races will get more than others.

    I'd argue it's less ridiculous than the phrase "content denier".

    I'm with you OP, with regards to not really wanting to see more roster bloat for the Game 2 races. To be honest, personally I don't think Game 1 needs much more in the way of units either - I'd love to see a bit of flavour or theme added to each race, but honestly forcing a big 'centrepiece' into each lord pack doesn't appeal to me in the slightest at this point.
  • XxXScorpionXxXXxXScorpionXxX Registered Users Posts: 4,969
    Pr4vda said:

    I'm personally done with all game 2 races for now. They each have their 6 LL's. They don't need anything else before other important races get their bare minimum.

    At this point a game 1 vs game 1 pack is what I want. I don't view these games as stand alone products I view them as one single product... because it was marketed that way. To me. Empire and Dwarfs are no less a "game 2 race" than Skaven or High Elves.

    Oh yeah. The only problem with that is that two "WH1" races in a single pack might "vampirise" (like taking content) of the other in terms of a rework. Like BM getting a great rework and leaving nothing to DW or VC. But in the same time getting a WH2 race wnagainst BM would feel like a waste because LM or DE have so much contrary to some old WH1 races ...
    thats why I think its likely to be vampires. Dwarfs need another rework. Vampires on the other hand are still in a pretty good place. Blood kisses are fine as they are.
    Request scorched body textures, poisoned dying animations for infantry's skeletons, a blood slider that allows us to control how much blood appears in battle and make proper death animations for all ethereal units so they vanish for Blood for the Blood God 3.
  • Stacks_LeeStacks_Lee Registered Users Posts: 362
    endikux said:


    It might be true that they are never going to demote LL's but I don't understand agreeing with that. There are plenty of LL's that should be heroes and it would be a BETTER game if that were the case. How having Isabella be able to be in the same army as Vlad is a bad thing is beyond me. That's like saying if Gotrek was a LL and Felix was a LL then people would complain if they were put into an army together as an update. If Nakai or Tiqtaq'to were demoted to legendary heroes I would celebrate. Neither of those campaigns is very amazing.

    I never said any of that, I just said it's never going to happen, so it's pointless to even dedicate the energy. Heck, outside of Gotrek and Isabella, there isn't even a consensus on who it should apply to. Ghorst? Nakai? Gromby? Again, pointless. What's done is done.
  • SaurianDruidSaurianDruid Registered Users Posts: 1,707
    It is fine if you personally don't want it to be Lizardmen vs Beastmen. Personally if it does end up being vampires vs dwarfs I probably won't buy it because those are two of my least favorite races.

    I would actually love it if it were Lizardmen vs Beastmen, though. My two favorite races. It'd be an instant buy. And it isn't like there's nothing to add to the Lizardmen that'd be worth while. They're still missing a big, fancy, centerpiece unit from their 8th edition codex that CA just... Hasn't deemed appropriate to add yet. The troglodon.

    Though that is also the nature of games like this. We all have our preferences. Just because someone might not enjoy a piece of content doesn't mean that content isn't worth making for those who do.

    If we abided by that logic we'd only ever get High Elf content. Tyranny of the Majority. Just as Varesh wants it.
  • Prince_AlucardPrince_Alucard Registered Users Posts: 559
    Fair thing not to want, but I wouldn't expect it. Not when Skaven also have 3 LPs already, I really thought Throt was going to be game 3 TBH, because he would've fit right in, especially right above Kislev in ME and below Chaos. But here he is in game 2.


    I mostly doubt a WH1 vs WH1 dlc because they plan DLCs at decently far ahead. They were talking about against them since December, which is just a bit too recent, I think. By then I think they knew what the next DLC was. So I think they paired WE and BM with a WH2 race each. BM probably with LM, since LM like Skaven still have some stuff left unlike the elves, enough for a LP anyway.


    If it's even Beastmen, could be LM vs Dwarfs IG if they really don't have the schedule to make such a big overhaul for the BM. Dwarfs vs Neferata is what I see if it is game 1 vs game 1. But I don't see it happening as said above. Plus I see Neferata coming with Nagash. Whenever or however he's introduced into the game.
  • hendo’hendo’ Registered Users Posts: 2,988
    We need to start prioritizing game 1 races. Game 2 core races are in a really good spot. I would t be upset if we don’t see them part of a dlc for quite some time. TWW3 production cycle should focus on game 3 and cross overs should be reserved for game 1. The old world races have so many different cultures, families kingdoms what have you that they need to be implemented. This game has been in production for too long to still have elements that feel bare bones.

    I would love to be pleasantly surprised but this is what I’m predicting for (and I still might be let down):

    Game 2 race vs BM
    Flc 1: BM FLC LL
    Flc 2: Boris LL ME exclusive
    Flc 3: Cult ulric and middenland unique units

    My preference would be to replace game 2 with a game 1 race (but as I said, what I have already above is dreaming)
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 11,023
    If they were going to break the 'game 2 lordpack must have a game 2 core' rule, they should have done it before the skaven got a third lordpack. No reason skaven get to be a special exception. All of the game 2 races have space for at least on more lord pack, whatever the Elf-haters claim, and Lizardmen could stretch to two (hey, like the skaven fans justified, don't blame the Lizardmen for GW giving them so many variant lists for CA to draw from!), as well as being in a position where they could really use whatever mechanics tweaks CA can give them alongside the BM rework.
  • EmrysorEmrysor Registered Users Posts: 522
    Nyxilis said:

    Emrysor said:

    Nyxilis said:

    So much wrong in the OP's opening statement.

    There is zero reason to lock any race to a number of lords just because of another. I don't sit and and wish harm on another race when the time for their extra lords is now. Should the BM be next they bloody well should get two.

    I don't care about your biases of preference trying to mess with a DLC drop. You don't want BM or LM? That's fine, I'm not going to define what you actual want. But get out of messing with the other two races when its their time. You are not predicting what will happen, you're calling for it to happen.

    Vampire Counts and Empire sitting in a stationary place? Both had major reworks and the Empire had DLC so it's a straight up fallacy to say they have been in a static position since 2017.

    Lots of players are also not jazzed about any game 1 race on any particular moment. Guess we better just never do anything again!

    Posters on this forum can perfectly state what they want or do not want. And all this is subjective about its their time or not. You need to understand some posters really do not give a crap about what races deserves a dlc or not. They got their favorites and are allowed to create threads to voice their opinion. You can of course just ignore it or read it then move on.
    Absolutely not, a forum is not 'sit down and shut up' because I don't like a position. We are very much allowed to tell people they are wrong. That's the point of debate. So I don't have to ignore it, or move on.
    ceshann said:

    Nyxilis said:

    So much wrong in the OP's opening statement.

    There is zero reason to lock any race to a number of lords just because of another. I don't sit and and wish harm on another race when the time for their extra lords is now. Should the BM be next they bloody well should get two.

    I don't care about your biases of preference trying to mess with a DLC drop. You don't want BM or LM? That's fine, I'm not going to define what you actual want. But get out of messing with the other two races when its their time. You are not predicting what will happen, you're calling for it to happen.

    Vampire Counts and Empire sitting in a stationary place? Both had major reworks and the Empire had DLC so it's a straight up fallacy to say they have been in a static position since 2017.

    Lots of players are also not jazzed about any game 1 race on any particular moment. Guess we better just never do anything again!

    I think we all need to have a sit down and talk about what agency we actually have in this entire process. I sincerely doubt CA is going on these forums, of all places, seeing a handful of contrarian opinions, and saying "Welp, I know we are weeks/months into the development process, but ______ doesn't like it, so back to the drawing board!"

    Some folks really need to step away from all of this...
    Forum, again. I do not understand why people get some idea that we shouldn't tell people they're wrong. This is not how forums work.
    Then I suggest you also tolerate threads you do not like. At least it seemed for me you did not show tolerance for such threads, or maybe that is the impression I get from you after reading your post.
  • NyxilisNyxilis Registered Users Posts: 6,733
    Emrysor said:

    Nyxilis said:

    Emrysor said:

    Nyxilis said:

    So much wrong in the OP's opening statement.

    There is zero reason to lock any race to a number of lords just because of another. I don't sit and and wish harm on another race when the time for their extra lords is now. Should the BM be next they bloody well should get two.

    I don't care about your biases of preference trying to mess with a DLC drop. You don't want BM or LM? That's fine, I'm not going to define what you actual want. But get out of messing with the other two races when its their time. You are not predicting what will happen, you're calling for it to happen.

    Vampire Counts and Empire sitting in a stationary place? Both had major reworks and the Empire had DLC so it's a straight up fallacy to say they have been in a static position since 2017.

    Lots of players are also not jazzed about any game 1 race on any particular moment. Guess we better just never do anything again!

    Posters on this forum can perfectly state what they want or do not want. And all this is subjective about its their time or not. You need to understand some posters really do not give a crap about what races deserves a dlc or not. They got their favorites and are allowed to create threads to voice their opinion. You can of course just ignore it or read it then move on.
    Absolutely not, a forum is not 'sit down and shut up' because I don't like a position. We are very much allowed to tell people they are wrong. That's the point of debate. So I don't have to ignore it, or move on.
    ceshann said:

    Nyxilis said:

    So much wrong in the OP's opening statement.

    There is zero reason to lock any race to a number of lords just because of another. I don't sit and and wish harm on another race when the time for their extra lords is now. Should the BM be next they bloody well should get two.

    I don't care about your biases of preference trying to mess with a DLC drop. You don't want BM or LM? That's fine, I'm not going to define what you actual want. But get out of messing with the other two races when its their time. You are not predicting what will happen, you're calling for it to happen.

    Vampire Counts and Empire sitting in a stationary place? Both had major reworks and the Empire had DLC so it's a straight up fallacy to say they have been in a static position since 2017.

    Lots of players are also not jazzed about any game 1 race on any particular moment. Guess we better just never do anything again!

    I think we all need to have a sit down and talk about what agency we actually have in this entire process. I sincerely doubt CA is going on these forums, of all places, seeing a handful of contrarian opinions, and saying "Welp, I know we are weeks/months into the development process, but ______ doesn't like it, so back to the drawing board!"

    Some folks really need to step away from all of this...
    Forum, again. I do not understand why people get some idea that we shouldn't tell people they're wrong. This is not how forums work.
    Then I suggest you also tolerate threads you do not like. At least it seemed for me you did not show tolerance for such threads, or maybe that is the impression I get from you after reading your post.
    Nope. Just because people have an opinion does not mean I have to like it, love it, or even tolerate it. This is a forum, people can disagree to the levels the ToS allow.

    The OP comes in and states falsehoods that are easily provably wrong. To the point it's probably not ignorance but rather fibbing as everyone knows the Empire got DLC well after 2017. Something you seem far more okay with!

    That's not good faith debate from the start. And I'm free to say it.
  • VictuzVictuz Sao Paulo, BrazilRegistered Users Posts: 414
    edited March 2021
    Surge_2 said:

    I'm of several minds.

    1. It has to be BM.
    2. I don't much care about the other side.
    3. I don't like Lizards thematically.

    I'd rather almost any other opposing faction.

    However.

    It cannot be Elves or Skaven. So?

    LM it is...

    I think the exact same, except I love LM.

    It can't be HE or DE because they're pretty much complete at this point, specially DE.

    And much less Skaven, or an uprising would happen inside and outside here. Also the rodent fans will have an indigestion already.

    So although there isn't too much left for the LM rooster (unless CA create units like they did with Bretonnia), there's still plenty of LLs left.
  • EmrysorEmrysor Registered Users Posts: 522
    Nyxilis said:

    Emrysor said:

    Nyxilis said:

    Emrysor said:

    Nyxilis said:

    So much wrong in the OP's opening statement.

    There is zero reason to lock any race to a number of lords just because of another. I don't sit and and wish harm on another race when the time for their extra lords is now. Should the BM be next they bloody well should get two.

    I don't care about your biases of preference trying to mess with a DLC drop. You don't want BM or LM? That's fine, I'm not going to define what you actual want. But get out of messing with the other two races when its their time. You are not predicting what will happen, you're calling for it to happen.

    Vampire Counts and Empire sitting in a stationary place? Both had major reworks and the Empire had DLC so it's a straight up fallacy to say they have been in a static position since 2017.

    Lots of players are also not jazzed about any game 1 race on any particular moment. Guess we better just never do anything again!

    Posters on this forum can perfectly state what they want or do not want. And all this is subjective about its their time or not. You need to understand some posters really do not give a crap about what races deserves a dlc or not. They got their favorites and are allowed to create threads to voice their opinion. You can of course just ignore it or read it then move on.
    Absolutely not, a forum is not 'sit down and shut up' because I don't like a position. We are very much allowed to tell people they are wrong. That's the point of debate. So I don't have to ignore it, or move on.
    ceshann said:

    Nyxilis said:

    So much wrong in the OP's opening statement.

    There is zero reason to lock any race to a number of lords just because of another. I don't sit and and wish harm on another race when the time for their extra lords is now. Should the BM be next they bloody well should get two.

    I don't care about your biases of preference trying to mess with a DLC drop. You don't want BM or LM? That's fine, I'm not going to define what you actual want. But get out of messing with the other two races when its their time. You are not predicting what will happen, you're calling for it to happen.

    Vampire Counts and Empire sitting in a stationary place? Both had major reworks and the Empire had DLC so it's a straight up fallacy to say they have been in a static position since 2017.

    Lots of players are also not jazzed about any game 1 race on any particular moment. Guess we better just never do anything again!

    I think we all need to have a sit down and talk about what agency we actually have in this entire process. I sincerely doubt CA is going on these forums, of all places, seeing a handful of contrarian opinions, and saying "Welp, I know we are weeks/months into the development process, but ______ doesn't like it, so back to the drawing board!"

    Some folks really need to step away from all of this...
    Forum, again. I do not understand why people get some idea that we shouldn't tell people they're wrong. This is not how forums work.
    Then I suggest you also tolerate threads you do not like. At least it seemed for me you did not show tolerance for such threads, or maybe that is the impression I get from you after reading your post.
    Nope. Just because people have an opinion does not mean I have to like it, love it, or even tolerate it. This is a forum, people can disagree to the levels the ToS allow.

    The OP comes in and states falsehoods that are easily provably wrong. To the point it's probably not ignorance but rather fibbing as everyone knows the Empire got DLC well after 2017. Something you seem far more okay with!

    That's not good faith debate from the start. And I'm free to say it.
    Like, dislike is up to you. But a core fundament in discussion is to tolerate other opinions. Even though you dislike it. And if you refuse to tolerate it why even bother arguing for having a discussion. "I disagree with you, but tolerate your opinion to voice it". Not sure who said it, but ot is pretty much required to have an open discussion.
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 11,023
    edited March 2021
    Victuz said:

    Surge_2 said:

    I'm of several minds.

    1. It has to be BM.
    2. I don't much care about the other side.
    3. I don't like Lizards thematically.

    I'd rather almost any other opposing faction.

    However.

    It cannot be Elves or Skaven. So?

    LM it is...

    I think the exact same, except I love LM.

    It can't be HE or DE because they're pretty much complete at this point, specially DE.

    And much less Skaven, or an uprising would happen inside and outside here. Also the rodent fans will have an indigestion already.

    So although there isn't too much left for the LM rooster (unless CA create units like they did with Bretonnia), there's still plenty of LLs left.
    If what the High Elves got out of Queen and Crone is considered an acceptable lord pack, I can make a lord pack of similar quality just out of the High Elf army book. Skycutter with and without Eagle Claw (the High Elf units were two archers in Q&C, so weapon variants of the Skycutter could also classify as two units, and would probably still be more expensive to make than the Sisters of Avelorn and Shadow Warriors). Caradryan as LL, with Annointed as the generic Lord. Throw in the Sea Helm as another hero option, and it would be more content than Queen and Crone, just out of the army book.

    Of course, there's additional material that can be drawn from beyond that, but I don't think you can call a race "pretty much complete" when you can make a lord pack for them straight out of the Army Book that would still have more content than a Lord Pack they've received in the past.

    Now, I don't think that's what's coming. But I don't think it's realistic to say HE are "pretty much complete" given that two of the Game 1 core options that people are putting up as desperately needing more content are actually more complete when you compare to their army books.
  • NyxilisNyxilis Registered Users Posts: 6,733
    Emrysor said:

    Nyxilis said:

    Emrysor said:

    Nyxilis said:

    Emrysor said:

    Nyxilis said:

    So much wrong in the OP's opening statement.

    There is zero reason to lock any race to a number of lords just because of another. I don't sit and and wish harm on another race when the time for their extra lords is now. Should the BM be next they bloody well should get two.

    I don't care about your biases of preference trying to mess with a DLC drop. You don't want BM or LM? That's fine, I'm not going to define what you actual want. But get out of messing with the other two races when its their time. You are not predicting what will happen, you're calling for it to happen.

    Vampire Counts and Empire sitting in a stationary place? Both had major reworks and the Empire had DLC so it's a straight up fallacy to say they have been in a static position since 2017.

    Lots of players are also not jazzed about any game 1 race on any particular moment. Guess we better just never do anything again!

    Posters on this forum can perfectly state what they want or do not want. And all this is subjective about its their time or not. You need to understand some posters really do not give a crap about what races deserves a dlc or not. They got their favorites and are allowed to create threads to voice their opinion. You can of course just ignore it or read it then move on.
    Absolutely not, a forum is not 'sit down and shut up' because I don't like a position. We are very much allowed to tell people they are wrong. That's the point of debate. So I don't have to ignore it, or move on.
    ceshann said:

    Nyxilis said:

    So much wrong in the OP's opening statement.

    There is zero reason to lock any race to a number of lords just because of another. I don't sit and and wish harm on another race when the time for their extra lords is now. Should the BM be next they bloody well should get two.

    I don't care about your biases of preference trying to mess with a DLC drop. You don't want BM or LM? That's fine, I'm not going to define what you actual want. But get out of messing with the other two races when its their time. You are not predicting what will happen, you're calling for it to happen.

    Vampire Counts and Empire sitting in a stationary place? Both had major reworks and the Empire had DLC so it's a straight up fallacy to say they have been in a static position since 2017.

    Lots of players are also not jazzed about any game 1 race on any particular moment. Guess we better just never do anything again!

    I think we all need to have a sit down and talk about what agency we actually have in this entire process. I sincerely doubt CA is going on these forums, of all places, seeing a handful of contrarian opinions, and saying "Welp, I know we are weeks/months into the development process, but ______ doesn't like it, so back to the drawing board!"

    Some folks really need to step away from all of this...
    Forum, again. I do not understand why people get some idea that we shouldn't tell people they're wrong. This is not how forums work.
    Then I suggest you also tolerate threads you do not like. At least it seemed for me you did not show tolerance for such threads, or maybe that is the impression I get from you after reading your post.
    Nope. Just because people have an opinion does not mean I have to like it, love it, or even tolerate it. This is a forum, people can disagree to the levels the ToS allow.

    The OP comes in and states falsehoods that are easily provably wrong. To the point it's probably not ignorance but rather fibbing as everyone knows the Empire got DLC well after 2017. Something you seem far more okay with!

    That's not good faith debate from the start. And I'm free to say it.
    Like, dislike is up to you. But a core fundament in discussion is to tolerate other opinions. Even though you dislike it. And if you refuse to tolerate it why even bother arguing for having a discussion. "I disagree with you, but tolerate your opinion to voice it". Not sure who said it, but ot is pretty much required to have an open discussion.
    Nope, first. Not an opinion. Empire had DLC after 2017, and VC and Empire had reworks. That's fact not opinion. He is wrong.

    Bit I guess I gotta respect that guy who says 2 + 2 =5

    Or someone standing at a point of entitlement above other race fans. Already a point of disrespect to begin with.

    And guess you'll just have to respect that because it's my opinion~ And that is actually an opinion.

  • UberReptilianUberReptilian The Crystal LabyrinthRegistered Users Posts: 5,487
    Emrysor said:

    Nyxilis said:

    Emrysor said:

    Nyxilis said:

    Emrysor said:

    Nyxilis said:

    So much wrong in the OP's opening statement.

    There is zero reason to lock any race to a number of lords just because of another. I don't sit and and wish harm on another race when the time for their extra lords is now. Should the BM be next they bloody well should get two.

    I don't care about your biases of preference trying to mess with a DLC drop. You don't want BM or LM? That's fine, I'm not going to define what you actual want. But get out of messing with the other two races when its their time. You are not predicting what will happen, you're calling for it to happen.

    Vampire Counts and Empire sitting in a stationary place? Both had major reworks and the Empire had DLC so it's a straight up fallacy to say they have been in a static position since 2017.

    Lots of players are also not jazzed about any game 1 race on any particular moment. Guess we better just never do anything again!

    Posters on this forum can perfectly state what they want or do not want. And all this is subjective about its their time or not. You need to understand some posters really do not give a crap about what races deserves a dlc or not. They got their favorites and are allowed to create threads to voice their opinion. You can of course just ignore it or read it then move on.
    Absolutely not, a forum is not 'sit down and shut up' because I don't like a position. We are very much allowed to tell people they are wrong. That's the point of debate. So I don't have to ignore it, or move on.
    ceshann said:

    Nyxilis said:

    So much wrong in the OP's opening statement.

    There is zero reason to lock any race to a number of lords just because of another. I don't sit and and wish harm on another race when the time for their extra lords is now. Should the BM be next they bloody well should get two.

    I don't care about your biases of preference trying to mess with a DLC drop. You don't want BM or LM? That's fine, I'm not going to define what you actual want. But get out of messing with the other two races when its their time. You are not predicting what will happen, you're calling for it to happen.

    Vampire Counts and Empire sitting in a stationary place? Both had major reworks and the Empire had DLC so it's a straight up fallacy to say they have been in a static position since 2017.

    Lots of players are also not jazzed about any game 1 race on any particular moment. Guess we better just never do anything again!

    I think we all need to have a sit down and talk about what agency we actually have in this entire process. I sincerely doubt CA is going on these forums, of all places, seeing a handful of contrarian opinions, and saying "Welp, I know we are weeks/months into the development process, but ______ doesn't like it, so back to the drawing board!"

    Some folks really need to step away from all of this...
    Forum, again. I do not understand why people get some idea that we shouldn't tell people they're wrong. This is not how forums work.
    Then I suggest you also tolerate threads you do not like. At least it seemed for me you did not show tolerance for such threads, or maybe that is the impression I get from you after reading your post.
    Nope. Just because people have an opinion does not mean I have to like it, love it, or even tolerate it. This is a forum, people can disagree to the levels the ToS allow.

    The OP comes in and states falsehoods that are easily provably wrong. To the point it's probably not ignorance but rather fibbing as everyone knows the Empire got DLC well after 2017. Something you seem far more okay with!

    That's not good faith debate from the start. And I'm free to say it.
    Like, dislike is up to you. But a core fundament in discussion is to tolerate other opinions. Even though you dislike it. And if you refuse to tolerate it why even bother arguing for having a discussion. "I disagree with you, but tolerate your opinion to voice it". Not sure who said it, but ot is pretty much required to have an open discussion.
    You can tolerate other's opinions while still arguing them. What's the point of a thread if not for discussion of opposing opinions? I much prefer all perspectives come in threads than just blind agreement or disagreement with OP. Hell it's why I can respond to you right now since all perspectives are allowed.
  • VictuzVictuz Sao Paulo, BrazilRegistered Users Posts: 414
    Draxynnic said:

    Victuz said:

    Surge_2 said:

    I'm of several minds.

    1. It has to be BM.
    2. I don't much care about the other side.
    3. I don't like Lizards thematically.

    I'd rather almost any other opposing faction.

    However.

    It cannot be Elves or Skaven. So?

    LM it is...

    I think the exact same, except I love LM.

    It can't be HE or DE because they're pretty much complete at this point, specially DE.

    And much less Skaven, or an uprising would happen inside and outside here. Also the rodent fans will have an indigestion already.

    So although there isn't too much left for the LM rooster (unless CA create units like they did with Bretonnia), there's still plenty of LLs left.
    If what the High Elves got out of Queen and Crone is considered an acceptable lord pack, I can make a lord pack of similar quality just out of the High Elf army book. Skycutter with and without Eagle Claw (the High Elf units were two archers in Q&C, so weapon variants of the Skycutter could also classify as two units, and would probably still be more expensive to make than the Sisters of Avelorn and Shadow Warriors). Caradryan as LL, with Annointed as the generic Lord. Throw in the Sea Helm as another hero option, and it would be more content than Queen and Crone, just out of the army book.

    Of course, there's additional material that can be drawn from beyond that, but I don't think you can call a race "pretty much complete" when you can make a lord pack for them straight out of the Army Book that would still have more content than a Lord Pack they've received in the past.

    Now, I don't think that's what's coming. But I don't think it's realistic to say HE are "pretty much complete" given that two of the Game 1 core options that people are putting up as desperately needing more content are actually more complete when you compare to their army books.
    If what you said is true then you don't need to worry, HE will get plenty of content in game 3 then. Just like what happened now with game 1 races.

    I've saw folks here saying they would rather have game 1 vs game 1 races than any more game 2. That simply won't happen, because CA made a rule for all game 2 DLCs to be about at least one game 2 race.

    I would be surprised (but totally not disappointed) if the next DLC is about Tomb Kings vs Beastmen instead of Lizardmen vs Beastmen.
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 11,023
    Victuz said:

    Draxynnic said:

    Victuz said:

    Surge_2 said:

    I'm of several minds.

    1. It has to be BM.
    2. I don't much care about the other side.
    3. I don't like Lizards thematically.

    I'd rather almost any other opposing faction.

    However.

    It cannot be Elves or Skaven. So?

    LM it is...

    I think the exact same, except I love LM.

    It can't be HE or DE because they're pretty much complete at this point, specially DE.

    And much less Skaven, or an uprising would happen inside and outside here. Also the rodent fans will have an indigestion already.

    So although there isn't too much left for the LM rooster (unless CA create units like they did with Bretonnia), there's still plenty of LLs left.
    If what the High Elves got out of Queen and Crone is considered an acceptable lord pack, I can make a lord pack of similar quality just out of the High Elf army book. Skycutter with and without Eagle Claw (the High Elf units were two archers in Q&C, so weapon variants of the Skycutter could also classify as two units, and would probably still be more expensive to make than the Sisters of Avelorn and Shadow Warriors). Caradryan as LL, with Annointed as the generic Lord. Throw in the Sea Helm as another hero option, and it would be more content than Queen and Crone, just out of the army book.

    Of course, there's additional material that can be drawn from beyond that, but I don't think you can call a race "pretty much complete" when you can make a lord pack for them straight out of the Army Book that would still have more content than a Lord Pack they've received in the past.

    Now, I don't think that's what's coming. But I don't think it's realistic to say HE are "pretty much complete" given that two of the Game 1 core options that people are putting up as desperately needing more content are actually more complete when you compare to their army books.
    If what you said is true then you don't need to worry, HE will get plenty of content in game 3 then. Just like what happened now with game 1 races.

    I've saw folks here saying they would rather have game 1 vs game 1 races than any more game 2. That simply won't happen, because CA made a rule for all game 2 DLCs to be about at least one game 2 race.

    I would be surprised (but totally not disappointed) if the next DLC is about Tomb Kings vs Beastmen though.
    Yeah, that's the general expectation.

    There's various hints pointing towards LM and BM, and I think there are two reasons for it to be LM:

    1) Lizardmen are probably in the worst place, in terms of campaign mechanics, of all the Game 2 core races. Warden and Paunch - heck, even Hunter and Beast to an extent - show that there can be a Game 1 rework along with some improvements to the Game 2 race's mechanics. So doing Lizardmen would give CA the opportunity to give Lizardmen some flashier mechanics, possibly borrowing from some of the new mechanics that have been implemented for other races since H&B (for instance, something like Worldroots teleportation - Lizardmen are known in the fluff for having secret mystical paths for travelling long distances, and now that a template for such a mechanic exists, it probably wouldn't take too much to adapt it for Lizardmen).

    2) For everything I just said about High Elves, I don't think they can sustain a fourth lord pack, and it'd be even harder to stretch Dark Elves out that far. For Lizardmen, it's possible. There are multiple possible candidates for centerpiece units, supporting units, and generic character options. Going Lizardmen now, therefore, means that all of the Game 2 core races still have the potential for a Game 3 pack if they need a future update.

    I can understand people wanting a Game 1 versus Game 1 pack, but I don't think CA is going to change their policy at this point, especially if they agree that Lizardmen mechanics need a rework (I just don't see them trying to do a Lizardmen rework and a Beastmen overhaul while juggling a third race altogether, especially since dwarf players at least want reworks to their mechanics as well).

    At the bottom line, with fifteen races in the game (and soon to be twenty-two), I don't think it's realistic to expect every player to love every race equally. Some players are going to have races they're just not interested in, and if a pack pairs two of those races together, that's not going to be a pack that they're interested in, and that's okay. And even players who do have some level of appreciation for all of the races are still going to have preferences.
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 11,023
    Victuz said:

    Draxynnic said:

    Victuz said:

    Draxynnic said:

    Victuz said:

    Surge_2 said:

    I'm of several minds.

    1. It has to be BM.
    2. I don't much care about the other side.
    3. I don't like Lizards thematically.

    I'd rather almost any other opposing faction.

    However.

    It cannot be Elves or Skaven. So?

    LM it is...

    I think the exact same, except I love LM.

    It can't be HE or DE because they're pretty much complete at this point, specially DE.

    And much less Skaven, or an uprising would happen inside and outside here. Also the rodent fans will have an indigestion already.

    So although there isn't too much left for the LM rooster (unless CA create units like they did with Bretonnia), there's still plenty of LLs left.
    If what the High Elves got out of Queen and Crone is considered an acceptable lord pack, I can make a lord pack of similar quality just out of the High Elf army book. Skycutter with and without Eagle Claw (the High Elf units were two archers in Q&C, so weapon variants of the Skycutter could also classify as two units, and would probably still be more expensive to make than the Sisters of Avelorn and Shadow Warriors). Caradryan as LL, with Annointed as the generic Lord. Throw in the Sea Helm as another hero option, and it would be more content than Queen and Crone, just out of the army book.

    Of course, there's additional material that can be drawn from beyond that, but I don't think you can call a race "pretty much complete" when you can make a lord pack for them straight out of the Army Book that would still have more content than a Lord Pack they've received in the past.

    Now, I don't think that's what's coming. But I don't think it's realistic to say HE are "pretty much complete" given that two of the Game 1 core options that people are putting up as desperately needing more content are actually more complete when you compare to their army books.
    If what you said is true then you don't need to worry, HE will get plenty of content in game 3 then. Just like what happened now with game 1 races.

    I've saw folks here saying they would rather have game 1 vs game 1 races than any more game 2. That simply won't happen, because CA made a rule for all game 2 DLCs to be about at least one game 2 race.

    I would be surprised (but totally not disappointed) if the next DLC is about Tomb Kings vs Beastmen though.
    Yeah, that's the general expectation.

    There's various hints pointing towards LM and BM, and I think there are two reasons for it to be LM:

    1) Lizardmen are probably in the worst place, in terms of campaign mechanics, of all the Game 2 core races. Warden and Paunch - heck, even Hunter and Beast to an extent - show that there can be a Game 1 rework along with some improvements to the Game 2 race's mechanics. So doing Lizardmen would give CA the opportunity to give Lizardmen some flashier mechanics, possibly borrowing from some of the new mechanics that have been implemented for other races since H&B (for instance, something like Worldroots teleportation - Lizardmen are known in the fluff for having secret mystical paths for travelling long distances, and now that a template for such a mechanic exists, it probably wouldn't take too much to adapt it for Lizardmen).

    2) For everything I just said about High Elves, I don't think they can sustain a fourth lord pack, and it'd be even harder to stretch Dark Elves out that far. For Lizardmen, it's possible. There are multiple possible candidates for centerpiece units, supporting units, and generic character options. Going Lizardmen now, therefore, means that all of the Game 2 core races still have the potential for a Game 3 pack if they need a future update.

    I can understand people wanting a Game 1 versus Game 1 pack, but I don't think CA is going to change their policy at this point, especially if they agree that Lizardmen mechanics need a rework (I just don't see them trying to do a Lizardmen rework and a Beastmen overhaul while juggling a third race altogether, especially since dwarf players at least want reworks to their mechanics as well).

    At the bottom line, with fifteen races in the game (and soon to be twenty-two), I don't think it's realistic to expect every player to love every race equally. Some players are going to have races they're just not interested in, and if a pack pairs two of those races together, that's not going to be a pack that they're interested in, and that's okay. And even players who do have some level of appreciation for all of the races are still going to have preferences.
    Very good description and very good explanation! 🙂

    Differently from many people here, I like all races, but everyone have preferences because it's inevitable.

    I've saw someone saying CA need to focus on WoC before Dwarfs, but that won't happen now because WoC will be a game 3 rework.

    And I agree Dwarfs should be the next race to receive attention after Beastmen. And I also agree Norsca should be a FLC in the next update. Norsca rooster is fleshed out but they desperately need a new LL.
    Dwarfs I expect to be early in game 3 (and I really hope CA goes straight to cross-game lord packs in game 3. It's going to be really painful if the races that are behind at the end of game 2 - and there will be some, pretty much guaranteed - have to wait for three intra-game-3 lord packs and a couple of campaign packs before they even have a chance). WoC I'm pretty sure will get a big boost of some sort with TWW3 release, even if it's not advertised as such.

    Norsca I think should get a lord pack, or at least an additional generic lord option as FLC somewhere. I don't think any race should be limited to only having one generic lord.
  • EmrysorEmrysor Registered Users Posts: 522

    Emrysor said:

    Nyxilis said:

    Emrysor said:

    Nyxilis said:

    Emrysor said:

    Nyxilis said:

    So much wrong in the OP's opening statement.

    There is zero reason to lock any race to a number of lords just because of another. I don't sit and and wish harm on another race when the time for their extra lords is now. Should the BM be next they bloody well should get two.

    I don't care about your biases of preference trying to mess with a DLC drop. You don't want BM or LM? That's fine, I'm not going to define what you actual want. But get out of messing with the other two races when its their time. You are not predicting what will happen, you're calling for it to happen.

    Vampire Counts and Empire sitting in a stationary place? Both had major reworks and the Empire had DLC so it's a straight up fallacy to say they have been in a static position since 2017.

    Lots of players are also not jazzed about any game 1 race on any particular moment. Guess we better just never do anything again!

    Posters on this forum can perfectly state what they want or do not want. And all this is subjective about its their time or not. You need to understand some posters really do not give a crap about what races deserves a dlc or not. They got their favorites and are allowed to create threads to voice their opinion. You can of course just ignore it or read it then move on.
    Absolutely not, a forum is not 'sit down and shut up' because I don't like a position. We are very much allowed to tell people they are wrong. That's the point of debate. So I don't have to ignore it, or move on.
    ceshann said:

    Nyxilis said:

    So much wrong in the OP's opening statement.

    There is zero reason to lock any race to a number of lords just because of another. I don't sit and and wish harm on another race when the time for their extra lords is now. Should the BM be next they bloody well should get two.

    I don't care about your biases of preference trying to mess with a DLC drop. You don't want BM or LM? That's fine, I'm not going to define what you actual want. But get out of messing with the other two races when its their time. You are not predicting what will happen, you're calling for it to happen.

    Vampire Counts and Empire sitting in a stationary place? Both had major reworks and the Empire had DLC so it's a straight up fallacy to say they have been in a static position since 2017.

    Lots of players are also not jazzed about any game 1 race on any particular moment. Guess we better just never do anything again!

    I think we all need to have a sit down and talk about what agency we actually have in this entire process. I sincerely doubt CA is going on these forums, of all places, seeing a handful of contrarian opinions, and saying "Welp, I know we are weeks/months into the development process, but ______ doesn't like it, so back to the drawing board!"

    Some folks really need to step away from all of this...
    Forum, again. I do not understand why people get some idea that we shouldn't tell people they're wrong. This is not how forums work.
    Then I suggest you also tolerate threads you do not like. At least it seemed for me you did not show tolerance for such threads, or maybe that is the impression I get from you after reading your post.
    Nope. Just because people have an opinion does not mean I have to like it, love it, or even tolerate it. This is a forum, people can disagree to the levels the ToS allow.

    The OP comes in and states falsehoods that are easily provably wrong. To the point it's probably not ignorance but rather fibbing as everyone knows the Empire got DLC well after 2017. Something you seem far more okay with!

    That's not good faith debate from the start. And I'm free to say it.
    Like, dislike is up to you. But a core fundament in discussion is to tolerate other opinions. Even though you dislike it. And if you refuse to tolerate it why even bother arguing for having a discussion. "I disagree with you, but tolerate your opinion to voice it". Not sure who said it, but ot is pretty much required to have an open discussion.
    You can tolerate other's opinions while still arguing them. What's the point of a thread if not for discussion of opposing opinions? I much prefer all perspectives come in threads than just blind agreement or disagreement with OP. Hell it's why I can respond to you right now since all perspectives are allowed.
    I responded because he specifically said "I don't have to tolerate it". I don't care who is right and wrong. And that is what I choose to respond to. I still stand with what I wrote you can disagree or agree. But there is a minimum to tolerate others voicing their opinions, even if they are wrong. And to have an open discussion you need to tolerate that. That is kinda the core fundament in a democracy.
  • bradleyvincentwellsbradleyvincentwells Registered Users Posts: 335
    Thanks for the comments here. The general point of my OP is I'm just kinda done with Game 2 races/factions. I'm not really interested in paying for a DLC that - for reasons that don't make sense to me - MUST include a Game 2 race/faction. Game 1 races/factions like Empire, Dwarfs, and Vampires have been in limbo for a while with a treasure trove of wonderful characters that haven't gotten their DLC. I'm more interested in those, or in the Game 3 races, than yet another seemingly unnecessary LM, HE, DE, or SK lord.
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 11,023

    Thanks for the comments here. The general point of my OP is I'm just kinda done with Game 2 races/factions. I'm not really interested in paying for a DLC that - for reasons that don't make sense to me - MUST include a Game 2 race/faction. Game 1 races/factions like Empire, Dwarfs, and Vampires have been in limbo for a while with a treasure trove of wonderful characters that haven't gotten their DLC. I'm more interested in those, or in the Game 3 races, than yet another seemingly unnecessary LM, HE, DE, or SK lord.

    I can understand that, but to offer a counterpoint:

    The Game 2 races feel like they've had a lot more "this is being held back for future DLC" than the Game 1 races.

    Consider the Dwarfs, for instance. Compare to the army book - all they're missing (apart from a proper treatment of runes, but that's within the bounds of an FLC update) is Slayer generic characters. Heck, given that Slayers didn't lead armies, they could release a Slayer character as FLC and be done. Vampire Counts are basically just missing mount options, when you consider that the Cairn Wraith hero basically functioned as a means of deploying Cairn Wraiths as a unit of 1 rather than a unit of 3+.

    Now, look at LM and HE. Lizardmen could have been done with H&B. Trade the Dread Saurian for the Troglodyte, and that's the army book done. High Elves could have been brought to the same standard as Dwarfs and Dark Elves with Warden and Paunch. Trade those extra infantry units for Skycutters, give them a second generic option like every other race that's received a lord pack after Hunter and Beast, and they'd only be down one generic character option, just like the Dwarfs. And if the generic character option that's left out was the Seahelm, it'd be a pretty redundant one.

    You can see a similar effect with the Empire and Greenskins. War Wagons could have been the Celestial Hurricanum. A lot of animation work went into the Rogue Idol, which could have gone to... stuff that's in the Orcs and Goblins army book.

    If a race is clearly having units getting put off for future DLC, I think it's only fair that at some point they get that future DLC that the units in question are being pushed back for.

    Now, there certainly is out-of-army-book material for the Dwarfs and VCs to fill out a lord pack from - but the same can be said of the Game 2 races.

    Of course, if CA had finished off (or nearly finished off) the Lizardmen and High Elf army books with their second DLCs each, or if they'd switched to game 1 only packs rather than giving a third to the skaven, we'd probably be having a very different conversation.
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