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Lifedrain Effects Should Not Destroy Artillery Pieces

TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior MemberRegistered Users Posts: 34,001
How's it possible to put a Spirit Leech or any such spell on an artillery unit and have it destroy the pieces? Makes no sense whatsoever and needs to be removed. Lifedrain abilities and spells should not affect artillery pieces. Those are already fragile enough and there doesn't need to be yet another cheap and uncounterable way to remove them from the map.
Post edited by CA_Will#2514 on
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  • hanenhanen Registered Users Posts: 686
    How is it uncounterable?

    OC spirit leech got a lot less range than most artillery, giving you ample room to screen the caster.
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 7,031
    You can also dismount while it's ticking to spare models and after heal up damage to arty models. It's actually harder to prevent sniping with sq or fb, then you need to physically block with a large unit.

    It would also have a very big impact on faction balance.
    Don't fear the knockdown. Control it. Embrace it. Love it! :smile:
  • TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001
    hanen said:

    How is it uncounterable?

    OC spirit leech got a lot less range than most artillery, giving you ample room to screen the caster.

    How is SPIRIT leech destroying unSPIRITED machines justified?

    And no, there's no screening flying, hyper-mobile mages.

  • Lotus_Moon#2452Lotus_Moon#2452 Registered Users Posts: 12,352
    Trying to apply logic in warhammer universe....just wow.

    Here lets try this

    Why can flames of the phenix dmg phoenixes?
    Why does awakening of the woods dmg WE tree units?
    Why can zombies be controlled?...rampage anyone?
    Why can non magical attacks hurt ethereal?
    Why does a warrior pries who gives flaming attacks to archers not burn the arrows?
    Why do fire arrows not burn WE and Bret archers alive when held in a quiver?

    I can keep on going for a long time if u want...
  • yst#1879yst#1879 Registered Users Posts: 9,983
    Spirit leech has become something stupid thats isnt working as it should be, most SPECIFICALLY becoming some stupid anti artillery spell.

    What needs to happen is spirit leech kills the crew and NOT the soul-less object
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  • TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001

    Trying to apply logic in warhammer universe....just wow.

    Here lets try this

    Why can flames of the phenix dmg phoenixes?
    Why does awakening of the woods dmg WE tree units?
    Why can zombies be controlled?...rampage anyone?
    Why can non magical attacks hurt ethereal?
    Why does a warrior pries who gives flaming attacks to archers not burn the arrows?
    Why do fire arrows not burn WE and Bret archers alive when held in a quiver?

    I can keep on going for a long time if u want...

    Sorry, answer the question, how can SPIRIT LEECH destroy unsouled material?
  • NoSkill4U#6552NoSkill4U#6552 Registered Users Posts: 5,156

    Trying to apply logic in warhammer universe....just wow.

    Here lets try this

    Why can flames of the phenix dmg phoenixes?
    Why does awakening of the woods dmg WE tree units?
    Why can zombies be controlled?...rampage anyone?
    Why can non magical attacks hurt ethereal?
    Why does a warrior pries who gives flaming attacks to archers not burn the arrows?
    Why do fire arrows not burn WE and Bret archers alive when held in a quiver?

    I can keep on going for a long time if u want...

    Don t know what you mean with the first one.
    Awakening of the wood is a bomb.
    Bombs don t distinguish between friends and foes.
    Why shouldn t zombies be controllable?
    Because etherial units are never totally phased out.
    Because the flames are magically imbued on friendlies.
    Because the bretonnians maybe do light them, well, OUTSIDE the quiver???
    Also starfireshafts are magic arrows(, you could compare it to a modern day incindiary round.)


    There is logic and consistency behind every thing, even if it is not how YOU think logic should be.

  • Lotus_Moon#2452Lotus_Moon#2452 Registered Users Posts: 12,352

    Trying to apply logic in warhammer universe....just wow.

    Here lets try this

    Why can flames of the phenix dmg phoenixes?
    Why does awakening of the woods dmg WE tree units?
    Why can zombies be controlled?...rampage anyone?
    Why can non magical attacks hurt ethereal?
    Why does a warrior pries who gives flaming attacks to archers not burn the arrows?
    Why do fire arrows not burn WE and Bret archers alive when held in a quiver?

    I can keep on going for a long time if u want...

    Sorry, answer the question, how can SPIRIT LEECH destroy unsouled material?
    Coz its magic...there you go, or are you saying it should not work on steam tanks also? nor on doomwheels, bells, etc etc?
  • NoSkill4U#6552NoSkill4U#6552 Registered Users Posts: 5,156
    Agreed, spirit leech should only kill the crew.

    Only arcane unforging should destroy equipment.
  • TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001
    edited March 2021
    It also makes no sense if you go at it from a pure gameplay perspective. Unlike skirmishers or SEM artillery, traditional artillery does have many weaknesses and downsides, it's turns and moves slowly and it can't defend itself in melee. It also suffers massive damage potential loss every time a piece blows up. Adding a completely nonsensical vulnerability on top of everything else is simply bad design.
  • Lotus_Moon#2452Lotus_Moon#2452 Registered Users Posts: 12,352
    TeNoSkill said:

    Trying to apply logic in warhammer universe....just wow.

    Here lets try this

    Why can flames of the phenix dmg phoenixes?
    Why does awakening of the woods dmg WE tree units?
    Why can zombies be controlled?...rampage anyone?
    Why can non magical attacks hurt ethereal?
    Why does a warrior pries who gives flaming attacks to archers not burn the arrows?
    Why do fire arrows not burn WE and Bret archers alive when held in a quiver?

    I can keep on going for a long time if u want...

    Don t know what you mean with the first one.
    Awakening of the wood is a bomb.
    Bombs don t distinguish between friends and foes.
    Why shouldn t zombies be controllable?
    Because etherial units are never totally phased out.
    Because the flames are magically imbued on friendlies.
    Because the bretonnians maybe do light them, well, OUTSIDE the quiver???
    Also starfireshafts are magic arrows(, you could compare it to a modern day incindiary round.)


    There is logic and consistency behind every thing, even if it is not how YOU think logic should be.

    Wrong

    1 - flames of the pehonix is a spell and can do dmg to a pehonix whois already covered in its flames
    2 - read the spell description, trees dmgign tress...ok
    3 - coz zombies are braiindead not like a skellie summon
    4 - yes they are against non magical attcks
    5 - no they not, its not a magical affect otehrwise it would do magic dmg also, read the ability description please
    6 - they dont, look at the animation of the models
    7 - Starfiresharfts are not magical arrows anymore otherwise they would have magic dmg.
  • NoSkill4U#6552NoSkill4U#6552 Registered Users Posts: 5,156
    Look, the fire itsself is not magical.
    The source/fuel allowing (regular) fire is magical.

    Same with starfireshafts.

    Also skelettons literally don t have a brain.
    Zombies are easier to raise but harder to puppet, due to the rot messing with the physics.

    Are you really gonna argue that Bretonnians light their arrows IN the quiver because there is no animation for it.

    THERE WAS NO ANIMATION FOR THIS IN ANY TOTAL WAR!
  • TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001
    And again, is there any good gameplay reason why artillery pieces should be vulnerable to lifedrain effects? Does it add to the game? I think it doesn't, I think it subtracts from the game since it piles on yet another crippling weakness on artillery when artillery pieces are already way too flimsy.
  • NoSkill4U#6552NoSkill4U#6552 Registered Users Posts: 5,156

    And again, is there any good gameplay reason why artillery pieces should be vulnerable to lifedrain effects? Does it add to the game? I think it doesn't, I think it subtracts from the game since it piles on yet another crippling weakness on artillery when artillery pieces are already way too flimsy.

    Can artillery crews switch pieces?

    Or are the crews tied to the pieces?
  • TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001
    If a piece is destroyed any remaining crew will join the others.
  • NoSkill4U#6552NoSkill4U#6552 Registered Users Posts: 5,156

    If a piece is destroyed any remaining crew will join the others.

    No I mean two different sets of artillery, from 2 different units.
  • mightygloin#2446mightygloin#2446 Karaz-a-KarakRegistered Users Posts: 6,123

    Trying to apply logic in warhammer universe....just wow.

    Here lets try this

    Why can flames of the phenix dmg phoenixes?
    Why does awakening of the woods dmg WE tree units?
    Why can zombies be controlled?...rampage anyone?
    Why can non magical attacks hurt ethereal?
    Why does a warrior pries who gives flaming attacks to archers not burn the arrows?
    Why do fire arrows not burn WE and Bret archers alive when held in a quiver?

    I can keep on going for a long time if u want...

    There are pretty easy answers to all these banal questions but not gonna bother. The universe has its own logic and the OP makes sense.
  • Pocman#6295Pocman#6295 Registered Users Posts: 5,753
    Disagree

    All the spells in the game are standardized around similar designs.


    For example, the fate of Bjunna in lore makes its victims laugh until they collapse and die. I can think of several units that should be immune to it, but aren't.


    Traitor kin causes those affected to attack their own units... But in practice only deals damage, with no regard by the way of the unit used on is more offensive, defensive...

    Banishment should only work against forces of destruction and chaos, but it can be used against any enemy.


    And a long etc.
  • tank3487tank3487 Member Registered Users Posts: 2,482
    edited March 2021
    TeNoSkill said:


    Can artillery crews switch pieces?
    Or are the crews tied to the pieces?

    If you has same unit type. Crew can use arty piece of other unit. RoR units are considered different type.
    Like for example Chaos has double hellcanon build vs WE. But take nonRoR hellcanon, so that it can use one cannon by both crews with all ammo after one piece got destroyed by Kurnos spam.

    It is common thing in some matchups like for example Dawi vs Empire, 3 cannons dawi build quite often use same arty piece to expend all ammo due to other arty pieces being destroyed in arty duel/magic.
  • TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001
    Pocman said:

    Disagree

    All the spells in the game are standardized around similar designs.


    For example, the fate of Bjunna in lore makes its victims laugh until they collapse and die. I can think of several units that should be immune to it, but aren't.


    Traitor kin causes those affected to attack their own units... But in practice only deals damage, with no regard by the way of the unit used on is more offensive, defensive...

    Banishment should only work against forces of destruction and chaos, but it can be used against any enemy.


    And a long etc.

    How does that negate the fact that piling on another crippling weakness on artillery is bad game design? When PBoB destroyed Dread Saurians, people complained about it despite it requiring the player of the Dread Saurian to stand still for an enormously long period of time. Artillery has no defense against point&click tomfoolery and loses tons of damage potential for every piece obliterated, but that's OK, huh?

    I don't think so.
  • tank3487tank3487 Member Registered Users Posts: 2,482

    I think it subtracts from the game since it piles on yet another crippling weakness on artillery when artillery pieces are already way too flimsy.

    Artillery give great position advantage. 1 cannon mean that enemy are forced to attack with whole army enemy that has entrenched on best possible position on map. Either hill(massive buffs due to height difference), swamps(Coast do love abusing it), forests, terrain with blockers etc etc.
  • tank3487tank3487 Member Registered Users Posts: 2,482

    Artillery has no defense against point&click tomfoolery and loses tons of damage potential for every piece obliterated, but that's OK, huh?

    You can decrew arty pieces every time you get SL cast. SL would just kill 7 models of crew in such case(which is very innefective for 11 WOM cost).
  • TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001
    tank3487 said:

    I think it subtracts from the game since it piles on yet another crippling weakness on artillery when artillery pieces are already way too flimsy.

    Artillery give great position advantage. 1 cannon mean that enemy are forced to attack with whole army enemy that has entrenched on best possible position on map. Either hill(massive buffs due to height difference), swamps(Coast do love abusing it), forests, terrain with blockers etc etc.
    How is that relevant to what I said? Artillery already has tons of possible counterplay, there's no need to pile on nonsensical weaknesses on top if it as well.
  • BovineKingBovineKing Registered Users Posts: 962
    I don’t know that I think this is needed I mean fireball is arguably even more effective vs artillery is that some how better?
  • TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001

    I don’t know that I think this is needed I mean fireball is arguably even more effective vs artillery is that some how better?

    It's absolutely needed.

    And fireball needs to home in on the crew, not the pieces. That's another BS weakness.
  • Black_Phillip#5773Black_Phillip#5773 Registered Users Posts: 925

    I don’t know that I think this is needed I mean fireball is arguably even more effective vs artillery is that some how better?

    It's absolutely needed.

    And fireball needs to home in on the crew, not the pieces. That's another BS weakness.
    Camping with artillery doesn't need to become easier. I'm glad magic missiles kill artillery models.
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 7,031
    Defensive infantry boxes is not necessarily interesting gameplay just because ephraim thinks so. Artillery is very present in the meta, artillery is not an endangered species.
    Don't fear the knockdown. Control it. Embrace it. Love it! :smile:
  • TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001

    I don’t know that I think this is needed I mean fireball is arguably even more effective vs artillery is that some how better?

    It's absolutely needed.

    And fireball needs to home in on the crew, not the pieces. That's another BS weakness.
    Camping with artillery doesn't need to become easier. I'm glad magic missiles kill artillery models.
    Spirit Leech ain't a magic missile.

    Maybe pay attention before replying next time.
  • tank3487tank3487 Member Registered Users Posts: 2,482


    Maybe pay attention before replying next time.

    Again, you still not answered. What prevent you from decrewing artillery during SL cast. Arty pieces do not get damage if you decrew them. It is very easy counter to SL arty snipe.
  • TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001
    edited March 2021
    tank3487 said:


    Maybe pay attention before replying next time.

    Again, you still not answered. What prevent you from decrewing artillery during SL cast. Arty pieces do not get damage if you decrew them. It is very easy counter to SL arty snipe.
    So far no one has answered why artillery needs this particular nonsensical weakness in the first place.

    So, unless someone can actually make a sound argument for why artillery needs to lose pieces to lifedrain effects, I don't have to humor such arguments.

    Another things is of course that this is yet another completely undeserved buff to magic since magic is already massively strong in this game and therefore doesn't need to get random boosts like this AT ALL.
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