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Lifedrain Effects Should Not Destroy Artillery Pieces

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  • eumaies#1128eumaies#1128 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 9,509
    I NEED this computer game to be exactly the way I want it to be. I need need need need it.

    Does that help?

    Separately, unrelated to artillery, the whole game and several faction matchups are balanced around th existence of spirit leach right now. It’s pretty sad.
  • Black_Phillip#5773Black_Phillip#5773 Registered Users Posts: 925
    edited March 2021

    tank3487 said:


    Maybe pay attention before replying next time.

    Again, you still not answered. What prevent you from decrewing artillery during SL cast. Arty pieces do not get damage if you decrew them. It is very easy counter to SL arty snipe.
    So far no one has answered why artillery needs this particular nonsensical weakness in the first place.

    So, unless someone can actually make a sound argument for why artillery needs to lose pieces to lifedrain effects, I don't have to humor such arguments.

    Another things is of course that this is yet another completely undeserved buff to magic since magic is already massively strong in this game and therefore doesn't need to get random boosts like this AT ALL.
    Because artillery can do a ton of damage and it's nice to have other options against artillery box builds besides trying to counter them with your own artillery. I don't want more camping, artillery duels, and artillery sniping lords. It just feels like lazy gameplay for noobs who's only plan on winning is just sitting back and sniping your lord from a distance. If you have to constantly dodge artillery with your lord it seems reasonable that the person with artillery has to decrew their artillery to avoid magic missiles and drain effects. It's better they have to put some effort too instead of just sitting around in a box sniping. That would be worse game design.

    It's on you to make a convincing argument since you're the one asking for changes. Most of us feel it's fine the way it is and if it's not broken there's no point to changing it.
  • yst#1879yst#1879 Registered Users Posts: 9,987
    Its an unintended use of the spell? that u need to uncrew the art everytime it gets spirit leeched is definitely not the intention

    Its pretty much an unintended consequence thats been left out for far too long, without fixing it

    Kill crews, not the pieces, its a simple fix
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  • Black_Phillip#5773Black_Phillip#5773 Registered Users Posts: 925
    yst said:

    Its an unintended use of the spell? that u need to uncrew the art everytime it gets spirit leeched is definitely not the intention

    Its pretty much an unintended consequence thats been left out for far too long, without fixing it

    Kill crews, not the pieces, its a simple fix

    Yes spirit leech killing artillery models probably wasn't planned. Magic missiles killing artillery models makes sense though.
  • Black_Phillip#5773Black_Phillip#5773 Registered Users Posts: 925

    I don’t know that I think this is needed I mean fireball is arguably even more effective vs artillery is that some how better?

    It's absolutely needed.

    And fireball needs to home in on the crew, not the pieces. That's another BS weakness.
    Camping with artillery doesn't need to become easier. I'm glad magic missiles kill artillery models.
    Spirit Leech ain't a magic missile.

    Maybe pay attention before replying next time.
    You literally just said "Fireball needs to home in on the crew, not the pieces. That's another BS weakness." Maybe pay attention to your own replies.
  • BovineKingBovineKing Registered Users Posts: 962
    That was sorta of my point with magic missiles why would you not just blow up the artillery piece unless CA implements some mechanics where damaged crew can’t operate all artillery pieces it make perfect sense to shoot the artillery piece itself.
  • TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001

    I don’t know that I think this is needed I mean fireball is arguably even more effective vs artillery is that some how better?

    It's absolutely needed.

    And fireball needs to home in on the crew, not the pieces. That's another BS weakness.
    Camping with artillery doesn't need to become easier. I'm glad magic missiles kill artillery models.
    Spirit Leech ain't a magic missile.

    Maybe pay attention before replying next time.
    You literally just said "Fireball needs to home in on the crew, not the pieces. That's another BS weakness." Maybe pay attention to your own replies.
    Of course it's a BS weakness because it has ZERO counterplay. Uncrewing doesn't work because it homes in on the pieces, not the crew. Anything with zero counterplay is bad and needs to be fixed or removed.

    But the topic, in case you forgot the title of the thread, is about lifedraining.

    And once again no argument why artillery needs to be susceptible to it. Camping is a result of weak infantry, that isn't solved by making magic even stronger.

    That's why I always challenge apologists directly. It shows that the main motivator is intertia, not balance concerns.
  • dge1dge1 Moderator Arkansas, USARegistered Users, Moderators, Knights Posts: 23,706
    Stop the personal asides in your comments folks.
    "The two most common things in the universe are Hydrogen and Stupidity." - Harlan Ellison
    "The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously." - Hubert H. Humphrey
    "Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” - George Carlin/Mark Twain
    “Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.”–George Santayana, The Life of Reason, 1905.

  • Lotus_Moon#2452Lotus_Moon#2452 Registered Users Posts: 12,352
    edited March 2021
    Arty is very hard to counter already, only ways arty can be countered is magic and other arty if screened by a competent player, for some factions its SL for others fire ball or thunderbolt or even soul quench, if you removed SL or magic being able to deal with arty some factions would have 0 ways to go at it.

    You mention arty has many ways it gets counters? That is totally wrong, play vs a good player that has arty and you see that only way to actually deal with it is magic and other arty and even that is not easy.

    If it were so easy to counter arty with those spells than arty would not be as common as it is in quite a few matchups.


    You want to nerf magic, you want to nerf ranged, you want to nerf cav, you want to make elite infantry better and arty have less counter play....have you though about playing other total war titles eupharion? I strongly doubt warhammer is the one that is suited for you if you want to turn the game into grind best and take away what makes warhammer warhammer.

    Alternatively just use dwarfs with an anvil next to your arty and you will have what you want from the game which is strong infantry with arty thats immune to magic sniping
  • innerpinnerp Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 982

    hanen said:

    How is it uncounterable?

    OC spirit leech got a lot less range than most artillery, giving you ample room to screen the caster.

    How is SPIRIT leech destroying unSPIRITED machines justified?

    And no, there's no screening flying, hyper-mobile mages.

    the magic causes spasms and jerking among the subjected crew, causing unintended damage to the mechanisms in the artillery piece rendering it unusable. your suspension of disbelief can now be restored.
  • tank3487tank3487 Member Registered Users Posts: 2,482
    innerp said:


    the magic causes spasms and jerking among the subjected crew, causing unintended damage to the mechanisms in the artillery piece rendering it unusable. your suspension of disbelief can now be restored.

    And this is why if you uncrew arty pieces they do not receive damage. Case solved.

  • The_real_FAUST#6885The_real_FAUST#6885 Registered Users Posts: 2,074
    Up the Hp of arty pieces.

    They were T7 in TT, that's crazy high. It's not reflected here well, hence things like bolt throwers get smashed by SL
  • TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001

    Up the Hp of arty pieces.

    They were T7 in TT, that's crazy high. It's not reflected here well, hence things like bolt throwers get smashed by SL

    Their hitboxes are bugged. Even a bunch of Goblin archers can shoot them and destroy artillery pieces with 1-2 volleys.

    Saying that artillery has few counters is straight BS, they are countered by everything. Even warhounds that attack the artillery crew get to bust artillery pieces sometimes.

    And uncrewing is an irrelevant counter because they shouldn't have such a nonsensical weakness in the first place.
  • Black_Phillip#5773Black_Phillip#5773 Registered Users Posts: 925
    edited March 2021

    Up the Hp of arty pieces.

    They were T7 in TT, that's crazy high. It's not reflected here well, hence things like bolt throwers get smashed by SL

    Their hitboxes are bugged. Even a bunch of Goblin archers can shoot them and destroy artillery pieces with 1-2 volleys.

    Saying that artillery has few counters is straight BS, they are countered by everything. Even warhounds that attack the artillery crew get to bust artillery pieces sometimes.

    And uncrewing is an irrelevant counter because they shouldn't have such a nonsensical weakness in the first place.
    As if there are no ways to prevent hounds from getting on your artillery like putting cheap spears on the crew or keeping cav nearby. Almost nobody here thinks artillery is too easy to counter.
    Post edited by BillyRuffian#6250 on
  • saweendra#3399saweendra#3399 Registered Users Posts: 19,349
    @ShiroAmakusa75 empire do actually put ashes of fallen gunners when maling artillery. It was plot point in gotrek and felix books

    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc


  • TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001
    edited March 2021
    saweendra said:

    @ShiroAmakusa75 empire do actually put ashes of fallen gunners when maling artillery. It was plot point in gotrek and felix books

    I rather go by the TT rules than the fluff and there Spirit Leech was not able to target war machines, Empire or otherwise.

    @Black_Phillip

    The point is that artillery pieces are ridiculously flimsy and get destroyed at the slightest provocation from any source. Skill is irrelevant, artillery simply shouldn't be that volatile.
    Post edited by TheShiroOfDalton on
  • saweendra#3399saweendra#3399 Registered Users Posts: 19,349

    saweendra said:

    @ShiroAmakusa75 empire do actually put ashes of fallen gunners when maling artillery. It was plot point in gotrek and felix books

    I rather go by the TT rules than the fluff and there Spirit Leech was not able to target war machines, Empire or otherwise.

    @Black_Phillip

    The point is that artillery pieces are ridiculously flimsy and get destroyed at the slightest provocation from any source. Skill is irrelevant, artillery simply shouldn't be that volatile.
    The thing is i am not convinced this is needed change.

    Because most of these races have a alternative for artillery if they are going to get sniped by life drain effects.

    Either in a unit with higher health or ways to get extra magic resist.

    Ideally it should target crew only , Ideally there should be reload animations so we know how much crew needed man artillery piece by visual confirmation.

    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc


  • TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001
    saweendra said:

    saweendra said:

    @ShiroAmakusa75 empire do actually put ashes of fallen gunners when maling artillery. It was plot point in gotrek and felix books

    I rather go by the TT rules than the fluff and there Spirit Leech was not able to target war machines, Empire or otherwise.

    @Black_Phillip

    The point is that artillery pieces are ridiculously flimsy and get destroyed at the slightest provocation from any source. Skill is irrelevant, artillery simply shouldn't be that volatile.
    The thing is i am not convinced this is needed change.

    Because most of these races have a alternative for artillery if they are going to get sniped by life drain effects.

    Either in a unit with higher health or ways to get extra magic resist.

    Ideally it should target crew only , Ideally there should be reload animations so we know how much crew needed man artillery piece by visual confirmation.
    It needs change because it's yet another buff to magic when magic is already way too useful in this game.
  • saweendra#3399saweendra#3399 Registered Users Posts: 19,349

    saweendra said:

    saweendra said:

    @ShiroAmakusa75 empire do actually put ashes of fallen gunners when maling artillery. It was plot point in gotrek and felix books

    I rather go by the TT rules than the fluff and there Spirit Leech was not able to target war machines, Empire or otherwise.

    @Black_Phillip

    The point is that artillery pieces are ridiculously flimsy and get destroyed at the slightest provocation from any source. Skill is irrelevant, artillery simply shouldn't be that volatile.
    The thing is i am not convinced this is needed change.

    Because most of these races have a alternative for artillery if they are going to get sniped by life drain effects.

    Either in a unit with higher health or ways to get extra magic resist.

    Ideally it should target crew only , Ideally there should be reload animations so we know how much crew needed man artillery piece by visual confirmation.
    It needs change because it's yet another buff to magic when magic is already way too useful in this game.
    Yeah but the issue is magic this is just a band aid.

    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc


  • TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001
    saweendra said:

    saweendra said:

    saweendra said:

    @ShiroAmakusa75 empire do actually put ashes of fallen gunners when maling artillery. It was plot point in gotrek and felix books

    I rather go by the TT rules than the fluff and there Spirit Leech was not able to target war machines, Empire or otherwise.

    @Black_Phillip

    The point is that artillery pieces are ridiculously flimsy and get destroyed at the slightest provocation from any source. Skill is irrelevant, artillery simply shouldn't be that volatile.
    The thing is i am not convinced this is needed change.

    Because most of these races have a alternative for artillery if they are going to get sniped by life drain effects.

    Either in a unit with higher health or ways to get extra magic resist.

    Ideally it should target crew only , Ideally there should be reload animations so we know how much crew needed man artillery piece by visual confirmation.
    It needs change because it's yet another buff to magic when magic is already way too useful in this game.
    Yeah but the issue is magic this is just a band aid.
    It would go together with all the other changes to magic I propsed over the years.
  • Lotus_Moon#2452Lotus_Moon#2452 Registered Users Posts: 12,352

    saweendra said:

    saweendra said:

    @ShiroAmakusa75 empire do actually put ashes of fallen gunners when maling artillery. It was plot point in gotrek and felix books

    I rather go by the TT rules than the fluff and there Spirit Leech was not able to target war machines, Empire or otherwise.

    @Black_Phillip

    The point is that artillery pieces are ridiculously flimsy and get destroyed at the slightest provocation from any source. Skill is irrelevant, artillery simply shouldn't be that volatile.
    The thing is i am not convinced this is needed change.

    Because most of these races have a alternative for artillery if they are going to get sniped by life drain effects.

    Either in a unit with higher health or ways to get extra magic resist.

    Ideally it should target crew only , Ideally there should be reload animations so we know how much crew needed man artillery piece by visual confirmation.
    It needs change because it's yet another buff to magic when magic is already way too useful in this game.
    false and wrong
  • tank3487tank3487 Member Registered Users Posts: 2,482


    I rather go by the TT rules than the fluff and there Spirit Leech was not able to target war machines, Empire or otherwise.

    In TT arty has also tended to blow up while firing.

  • tank3487tank3487 Member Registered Users Posts: 2,482
    edited March 2021


    It needs change because it's yet another buff to magic when magic is already way too useful in this game.

    It is not true. Try 20 casters army vs 20 similar costed units in custom game.
    Even two casters are quite rare pick.
  • TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001

    saweendra said:

    saweendra said:

    @ShiroAmakusa75 empire do actually put ashes of fallen gunners when maling artillery. It was plot point in gotrek and felix books

    I rather go by the TT rules than the fluff and there Spirit Leech was not able to target war machines, Empire or otherwise.

    @Black_Phillip

    The point is that artillery pieces are ridiculously flimsy and get destroyed at the slightest provocation from any source. Skill is irrelevant, artillery simply shouldn't be that volatile.
    The thing is i am not convinced this is needed change.

    Because most of these races have a alternative for artillery if they are going to get sniped by life drain effects.

    Either in a unit with higher health or ways to get extra magic resist.

    Ideally it should target crew only , Ideally there should be reload animations so we know how much crew needed man artillery piece by visual confirmation.
    It needs change because it's yet another buff to magic when magic is already way too useful in this game.
    false and wrong
    No arguments - > no relevance
    tank3487 said:


    I rather go by the TT rules than the fluff and there Spirit Leech was not able to target war machines, Empire or otherwise.

    In TT arty has also tended to blow up while firing.

    And in compensation was strong enough to one-shot monsters and characters.
    tank3487 said:


    It needs change because it's yet another buff to magic when magic is already way too useful in this game.

    It is not true. Try 20 casters army vs 20 similar costed units in custom game.
    Even two casters are quite rare pick.
    Obfuscation. You only need one caster and said caster will near always at least pay for itself but more often than not generate value.

    Why should casters have this privilege?
  • tank3487tank3487 Member Registered Users Posts: 2,482


    Obfuscation. You only need one caster and said caster will near always at least pay for itself but more often than not generate value.

    It is not obfuscation. If casters and magic are so strong as you imply, why not bring 20?
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