Multiplayer Changes for Hotfix

Lotus_Moon#2452

There are few things that don't make sense in current patch, its not even to do with balance for some of them.

Inconsistencies

* Glady, glade lord, glade captain on the Great Stag mount COUNT towards the 360* cap but do NOT have 360* shooting
- either remove them from this cap or give them 360 on this mount (prefer adding 360* for consistency reason)

* Stag Moung for glade captain takes a great eagle cap spot
- its not an eagle please remove this

* Glade Captain on eagle does NOT take a flying cap spot now which allows WE's to take 7 Flying units
- Please fix asap so WE cant abuse air like this

* Fire and Life slann still count towards Rare single entity cap but other slanns do not.
- remove both or re add all other slanns again (strongly prefer removal of all)

* Anith anar does not count towards 360* cap
- he should he has 360

*Shadow walkers = Shadow Warriors under the cap
- they not the same unit, this prevents 4 + 2 armies (max 6 360 units) as it caps out at 5, not a massive deal but still must be fixed.

* Vampire fleet captain (Polearm) counts towards ranged cap but has no ranged attack
- remove him from the cap

*Cold one chariot does not count to 360* cap
- it should as its range dmg output is similar level to tiranoc chariots

Balance Changes

* Manticore Mount Prices for DE lords
- Rakhan gets a massive discount over a beastmaster even though his manticore keeps AP, price needs fixing for other charecters or him

* Brood Horros as mounts
- Warlords Brood Horror needs +150g, the stats it gets over the normal version are just too good for 50g
- Packmaster needs +100g on horror also for same reason

(ridden monsters are normally 100 or so gold more expensive than the stand alone versions just for encurage and in some cases missile resistance, Warlord gets +missile resistance, + encourage, +10MA, +20MD, +5LD, +20 Armour for 50g currently, packmaster is not as bad except his cost did not go up on the mount)

And while at it i think a little safe touch should be given to GS

Grom +50g, Reduce wardsave on item to 30%
Reduce duration of language of the boyz to 10s. (currently Grom can ride around giving everything boosted stats and ITP for 30s after he moves away from the location), this is quite nuts, i didn't even realise its how it works until someone pointed it out.

Spider riders +25g

Spider rider archers +25g

Rogue Idol +magical attacks (my personal choice would be the wolf rider ROR given magical attacks to help GS vs etherals but only thru an ROR on a unit that doesnt see much play)


*Honorable mentions

Bestigors +4LD

Paladin +25g
Pegasus Mount +25g



I think There are other balance changes that could be done, but i tried to keep it to the absolute minimum that could actually happen in a hotfix but still improves balance, this is based on reading forum and discord so the majority should be on board with.

Loupi#8512

Lotus_Moon said:

* Maticore Mount Prices for DE lords
- Rakhan gets a massive discount over a beastmaster even though his manticore keeps AP, price needs fixing.

I think this is more about beastmaster and hellebron being too expensive on their mounts. Rakarth is similar to griffon and hippo mounts in terms of stats and cost so i think he is close to correctly costed.

yst#1879

The balance is all over the place, i would assume something happened to human resources or something.

Stag mounts and fire/life slann counting towards monster slot is really like frikking REALLY bad, those doesnt take 60s to fix. Sorry CA its pretty bad. I know it still takes time to fix but seriously this one been sitting for almost 6 months just for a slot change

Totentanz777#2915

Im not trying to be sparky here. Does CA even read these forums? MP FEELS right now like a complete afterthought in the game. Patch notes did not cover all the changes, is it possible multiple teams are working on different things and some changed stuff last minute? Many of the issues around unit caps have been raised in these forums before. Balance is one thing because it is subjective. But dear God, I don't even want to imagine a 7 unit WE air squad with Ariel tempest.

Black_Phillip#5773

Vampire Fleet Captains also count towards the range cap when they have no range weapons. How hard is it to fix this stuff. It shouldn't take 6 months to a year. Ridiculous.

Disposable Hero

For grom his biggest issue is the duration of iirc language of the boys, its 30s after he touches melee, it should be like 10s so that the effect can't give itp to the whole army if he drives around.. He replaces bobb as itp giver.....

Good post!

Lotus_Moon#2452

Black_Phillip said:

Vampire Fleet Captains also count towards the range cap when they have no range weapons. How hard is it to fix this stuff. It shouldn't take 6 months to a year. Ridiculous.

Disposable Hero said:

For grom his biggest issue is the duration of iirc language of the boys, its 30s after he touches melee, it should be like 10s so that the effect can't give itp to the whole army if he drives around.. He replaces bobb as itp giver.....

Good post!

Added both, i didn't even realise Language of the boys was that bonkers.

MamaLuigi

Did they fix the bug where soulstealer doesn't heal chariot malekith ?

yst#1879

Black_Phillip said:

Vampire Fleet Captains also count towards the range cap when they have no range weapons. How hard is it to fix this stuff. It shouldn't take 6 months to a year. Ridiculous.

Seriously bad, also they r stupidly overpriced on top of that. They r 100% unbringable right now

vizaresh

agree with your points
I'll add some more for DE:

1. DE pegasus mounts for casters is more expensive than other faction for no reason

2. Malus: fix the sword as it does not work in Demon form

3. Hellebron mounts are too expensive, should have 80 armor on Manticore, and her magic resistance item is too expensive so either reduce the cost or add secondary effect. for comparison check Lore master and Luthor's item and abilities

4. Malekith Soul Stealer does not heal him when he is on a chariot.

5. Master on Chariot attack range is to low or the CO don't attack properly, test him against other chariots and see for yourself, he just stands there. and for some reason when on foot he can't fight other infantry and has really low kill count


6. Hellebron on Cauldron costs 600 more gold than Death Hag on Cauldron and she gets:

+450 HP
+5 LD
+6 MA
+60 WS

I think these stats worths 200g tops, so either one of these guys is really under costed or other way around.

yst#1879

These r some serious problem, they r bug level of urgency. Must be fixed first priot to any balance changes, sever bug balance problem

The_real_FAUST#6885

It's a shame I've barely played since the throt release, the game feels deeply imbalanced now, not in the Vp are op way.

But just carelessness with units, out of date units/skills, gold cost, mistakes etc etc.

It's really sucked the enjoyment out

Apart from the fact that all you see played is gs, we, skv particularly if you want to be competitive and with the occasional appearance of bret, Vp, vc

ThisIsREM

The_real_FAUST said:

It's a shame I've barely played since the throt release, the game feels deeply imbalanced now, not in the Vp are op way.

But just carelessness with units, out of date units/skills, gold cost, mistakes etc etc.

It's really sucked the enjoyment out

Apart from the fact that all you see played is gs, we, skv particularly if you want to be competitive and with the occasional appearance of bret, Vp, vc

I've certainly seen a mountain of Lizardmen in competitive. Chaos, norska, dwarves all see play in slightly more niche situations and as counter picks. TK still solid as well. The remaining factions are played too as counter picks, albeit not as often.

I think with the exception of skaven (which might be fine after the latest patch) the game is fine balanced given the super high number of factions. Unless you are playing at S tier tournaments then balance is not a problem really, you can easily make it work without ever using the top 3.

ThisIsREM

Also, funny thing is that when I have seen the top tournaments then GS are not even picked. The last ECL qualifier final games on Turins channel had GS in literally one game out of 11, GS was a last pick in the finals, on the 5th game... and they lost. yeah so OP cannot play without GS.

Lotus_Moon#2452

ThisIsREM said:

Also, funny thing is that when I have seen the top tournaments then GS are not even picked. The last ECL qualifier final games on Turins channel had GS in literally one game out of 11, GS was a last pick in the finals, on the 5th game... and they lost. yeah so OP cannot play without GS.

Because they are usually banned, in my WWC groupsGS featured as a pick or a ban in almost all the games.

Sorry but GS are quite OP, WE and SKV were keeping them in check but with those balanced out it will show quite clearly.

Theo91#7431

I wonder if CA gives more weight to the opinions of high level competitive MP players. I didn’t instantly dismiss this cos it was lotus_moon who wrote it 🤣

Baron_Robbane

Theo91 said:

I wonder if CA gives more weight to the opinions of high level competitive MP players. I didn’t instantly dismiss this cos it was lotus_moon who wrote it 🤣

Nah they dont give an ass havent done so since shogun 2 .

ThisIsREM

Lotus_Moon said:

ThisIsREM said:

Also, funny thing is that when I have seen the top tournaments then GS are not even picked. The last ECL qualifier final games on Turins channel had GS in literally one game out of 11, GS was a last pick in the finals, on the 5th game... and they lost. yeah so OP cannot play without GS.

Because they are usually banned, in my WWC groupsGS featured as a pick or a ban in almost all the games.

Sorry but GS are quite OP, WE and SKV were keeping them in check but with those balanced out it will show quite clearly.

There will always be 3 factions in the top 3. Someone has to be. The question is how toxic the top is. The old VP could win games despite massive mistakes. I think GS is certainly strong but the better player will still normally win vs GS.

I think the game benefits from solid first picks that do not put the enemy into a disadvantage, and do not put the picker into a disadvantage either. FP GS allows for a fair game, and then ban GS if one picks elves. If not GS, who would you rather be the at the top? HE boxes? Skaven moster mash with PWM? VP ranged spam? DE full kite? I'd rather have GS rushes that at least are dynamic.

Lotus_Moon#2452

ThisIsREM said:

Lotus_Moon said:

ThisIsREM said:

Also, funny thing is that when I have seen the top tournaments then GS are not even picked. The last ECL qualifier final games on Turins channel had GS in literally one game out of 11, GS was a last pick in the finals, on the 5th game... and they lost. yeah so OP cannot play without GS.

Because they are usually banned, in my WWC groupsGS featured as a pick or a ban in almost all the games.

Sorry but GS are quite OP, WE and SKV were keeping them in check but with those balanced out it will show quite clearly.

There will always be 3 factions in the top 3. Someone has to be. The question is how toxic the top is. The old VP could win games despite massive mistakes. I think GS is certainly strong but the better player will still normally win vs GS.

I think the game benefits from solid first picks that do not put the enemy into a disadvantage, and do not put the picker into a disadvantage either. FP GS allows for a fair game, and then ban GS if one picks elves. If not GS, who would you rather be the at the top? HE boxes? Skaven moster mash with PWM? VP ranged spam? DE full kite? I'd rather have GS rushes that at least are dynamic.

i disagree, i find GS got 0 bad match-ups now and plenty of good ones, they not as OP as VP or SKV were before thats for sure, but Grom need big changes, along with spooder riders, Its fine for GS to be a top faction like you said someone has to be, but i think they just too good now and a slight toning down is needed.

RawSugar#1229

I can see GS being nerfed a little but dont go for spiders imo, they have slow melee and spiders basically (and characters), you can reduce GS power slightly, but target the slow melee and lords/heroes, nerfing spiders makes them way too predictable.
Ghom would be a prime target, picked too often and very powerful +100 gold, maybe their heroes as well. A slight nerf (50 gold) of night gobbo fanatics as well.
All but Grom should be small nerfs tho, GS arent OP just toptier, and i'd probably rank BRE higher

Godefroy_de_Bouillon

Green0 said:

Paladin +50g
Questing Knights +50g (as a start)
Pox Arrows +25g
Peasant Mob +25g

gentle nerfs for HOTFIX, these units would need more but this is a start that absolutely nobody can contrast I think.

agree on paladin and qk disagree on pox arrows and peasant mob, peasant mob is just roadblock that routs with 70% HP.

hanen

Peasant mobs are too cheap for whqt they do. +25g is still worth it seeing as you need to spend twice as much for the next cheapest unit.

saweendra#3399

hanen said:

Peasant mobs are too cheap for whqt they do. +25g is still worth it seeing as you need to spend twice as much for the next cheapest unit.

So +25 to mobs but not zombies that sounds rather trash since zombie are much better than mob.

Witchblade

Another bug related to unit caps is that you cannot load many armies that hit the max of a certain cap, even though they are legal. Try making an army with 2 horsemasters and 4 horsemen, save it and try to load it in QB. You can create and save the army but not load it.

Black_Phillip#5773

Witchblade said:

Another bug related to unit caps is that you cannot load many armies that hit the max of a certain cap, even though they are legal. Try making an army with 2 horsemasters and 4 horsemen, save it and try to load it in QB. You can create and save the army but not load it.

Yep same issue when you try to mix GS skirmish cav or LM ranged.

RawSugar#1229

Witchblade said:

Another bug related to unit caps is that you cannot load many armies that hit the max of a certain cap, even though they are legal. Try making an army with 2 horsemasters and 4 horsemen, save it and try to load it in QB. You can create and save the army but not load it.

im honestly at the point where i would by a DLC that fixed this. tbh its fun to build a new army every battle but to be even ore honest its not fun at all...

Zeblasky

Witchblade said:

Another bug related to unit caps is that you cannot load many armies that hit the max of a certain cap, even though they are legal. Try making an army with 2 horsemasters and 4 horsemen, save it and try to load it in QB. You can create and save the army but not load it.

Or you can't load certain armies with 5 flying units, like gyrocopters+bombers or gunbats. In certain instances you cant even load armies with 4, but why I have no idea. I've been trying to get attention to those army loadout bugs for a year now, the only reaction was one of our favourite farm animals saying that CA is aware of that.

DaBoyzAreBackInTown#9604

Good suggestions for the most part, disagree with the Rogue idols getting magic attacks though.

As for "Do CA care about MP?" seems like just yesterday people were praising CA for the Twisted & the Twilight patch being the biggest ever with numerous significant lord reworks/faction buffs etc. And also fixing infantry mass, changes to how status effects are imbued, and various other changes.

These forums always start to get rowdy after too long without a DLC full balance patch, and I expect the next one isn't too far off tbh.

hanen

DaBoyzAreBackInTown said:

Good suggestions for the most part, disagree with the Rogue idols getting magic attacks though.

As for "Do CA care about MP?" seems like just yesterday people were praising CA for the Twisted & the Twilight patch being the biggest ever with numerous significant lord reworks/faction buffs etc. And also fixing infantry mass, changes to how status effects are imbued, and various other changes.

These forums always start to get rowdy after too long without a DLC full balance patch, and I expect the next one isn't too far off tbh.

Yeah, I think the previous patchwas pretty damn amazing. The issue is when they wait 3 months to fix the broken stuff they added with the DLC. By this time most was expecting balance to reach the non DLC factions I guess.