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Why Are Artillery Pieces So Ridiculously Frail?

TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior MemberRegistered Users Posts: 34,001


Takes less than ten seconds for the two Jezzails (RoR+standard) to destroy the Empire Great Cannon pieces and render the whole investment null. No, not a Jezzail thing, seen low tier ranged units accomplish the same. Especially grating when every single destroyed artillery piece massively lowers the potential damage of any artillery unit since, uniquely among ranged units, losing a piece means also losing a portion of their ammo.

Those two Jezzails would have taken far longer to bust down a unit of regular crossbowmen and handgunners which is plain stupid.

Artilllery pieces shouldn't be that fragile to everything and either ALL ranged units lose ammo percentages if they lose shooting members, or NONE do.

Post edited by CA_Will#2514 on
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Comments

  • hanenhanen Registered Users Posts: 686
    What do you mean?

    If a unit of 60 archers lose 30 models the unit also loses half its effective ammo.
  • eumaies#1128eumaies#1128 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 9,508
    empire cannons counter jezzails. you just have to start at maximum distance.

    Jezzails are not cheap, they cost more than empire cannons.

    Empire cannons are not top of line cannons - they're the benchmark, while skaven are a strong artillery race.

  • Cukie251Cukie251 Registered Users Posts: 1,213
    Because artillery has cross map range, high damage, and gives the player who brought it the initiative.

    And other than jezzails, which are outranged by cannons anyways, why are you letting generic archers get in range of your cannon? Don't you have an army to put in their way?

    Also ammo loss on arty is the same as losing a few ranged models and firing less arrows for the rest of the game. The reason artillery takes a direct loss in ammunition is because they maintain the save volume of fire unless a piece gets damaged or they lose critical crew.
  • saweendra#3399saweendra#3399 Registered Users Posts: 19,327
    edited March 2021
    the HP distribution of some cannon are off for Example @Wyvern2 does YT video showing that crew has more HP than the cannon piece for Queen bess , i would prefer cannon piece have more HP than crew.

    also reload animation for cannons so we know how much crew is needed to operate them visually

    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc


  • eumaies#1128eumaies#1128 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 9,508
    FYi if you reverse that video and take 3 cannons vs 2 jezzails, the cannons will quickly annihilate the jezzails and at longer range. It's just an artillery duel dynamic - greater numbers helps alot. And even outnumbered the cannons in that example killed most of one jezzail, which would not happen in the reverse situation with 3 cannons and 2 jezzails.
  • TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001
    edited March 2021
    Cukie251 said:

    Because artillery has cross map range, high damage, and gives the player who brought it the initiative.

    And other than jezzails, which are outranged by cannons anyways, why are you letting generic archers get in range of your cannon? Don't you have an army to put in their way?

    Also ammo loss on arty is the same as losing a few ranged models and firing less arrows for the rest of the game. The reason artillery takes a direct loss in ammunition is because they maintain the save volume of fire unless a piece gets damaged or they lose critical crew.

    Artillery loses flat percentages of its ammo every time a piece blows up. Skirmishers don't lose percentages of their ammo if a model dies and SE artillery loses no performance at all if it gets damaged. Either this is homogenized or its abolished. I see 0 reason to penalize traditional artillery alone here.

    Artillery having long range is the point of artillery. It's already paying for that by moving slow, turning slow and being dead in the water if it gets engaged in melee. It also lowers the maneuverability of whatever army its in considerably since it needs to be protected.

    Extending its vulneratbility to skirmishers and small arms fire is not justified in the least. Those should not be hard-counters to artillery, period. Wanna' know why? Because it cannot be expected that any player could ever hope to zone out 100-275 range units from the artillery placements. That would require spacing the troops so far apart that they'd be easily picked off one by one as they couldn't support each other. It's also the reason why artillery close to never manages to actually fire all its shots in any given match.

    Considering that other units like mages are guaranteed by bad game design to unload their entire resource load into the match, I see no reason to handicap what's already the most handicapped unit in the game, second only to elite melee infantry.

    Post edited by TheShiroOfDalton on
  • eumaies#1128eumaies#1128 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 9,508
    I don’t know what you’re talking about with artillery ammo. I regularly lose all artillery pieces on one unit but recrew a different artillery piece and get to use my unspent ammo.

    Skirmishers are not hard counters to artillery. They’re easy to screen out. Jezzails are a pseudo artillery that trade badly with artillery, which seems about right given their mobility.
  • Lotus_Moon#2452Lotus_Moon#2452 Registered Users Posts: 12,352
    edited March 2021
    Especially grating when every single destroyed artillery piece massively lowers the potential damage of any artillery unit since, uniquely among ranged units, losing a piece means also losing a portion of their ammo


    Quite sure its not how it works, if you loose 2 models it just takes 3x ammout to use up your ammo but the ammo count will only go down every 3 shots fired, its actually better than for ranged units who if they loose models do lose the ammo, the reason being that the ammo is tied up to the crew and not the piece its also why you can recrew to other warmachines, perhaps if you lost 1/3 crew you do loose ammo, i haven't tested that approach but that could be true.

    Also jezzails are supper good against cannos due to aiming at the models with their good accurracy, but other than the ROR one jezzails are very balanced now.

    Artillery loses flat percentages of its ammo every time a piece blows up. Skirmishers don't lose percentages of their ammo if a model dies and SE artillery loses no performance at all if it gets damaged. Either this is homogenized or its abolished. I see 0 reason to penalize traditional artillery alone here.


    And what are you talking about?

    If 1 cannon dies and you had 18 ammo...you still have 18 ammo just 2 shots per volley (though im very sure they only suptract 1 ammo once you fire 3 shots, im actually quite certain of this), in a unit of 60 archers if 10 die you have 50 shots per ammo.
  • OdTengri#8235OdTengri#8235 Registered Users Posts: 10,211
    Aside from OP's statements about ammo I'd say looking at raising artillery HPs might be worth it, particularly for Single Weapon units like Queen Bess and Hell Cannons. Especially if what @saweendra says is true.
    saweendra said:

    the HP distribution of some cannon are off for Example @Wyvern2 does YT video showing that crew has more HP than the cannon piece for Queen bess , i would prefer cannon piece have more HP than crew.

    also reload animation for cannons so we know how much crew is needed to operate them visually

  • saweendra#3399saweendra#3399 Registered Users Posts: 19,327
    OdTengri said:

    Aside from OP's statements about ammo I'd say looking at raising artillery HPs might be worth it, particularly for Single Weapon units like Queen Bess and Hell Cannons. Especially if what @saweendra says is true.

    saweendra said:

    the HP distribution of some cannon are off for Example @Wyvern2 does YT video showing that crew has more HP than the cannon piece for Queen bess , i would prefer cannon piece have more HP than crew.

    also reload animation for cannons so we know how much crew is needed to operate them visually

    check the part on queen bess




    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc


  • OdTengri#8235OdTengri#8235 Registered Users Posts: 10,211
    saweendra said:

    OdTengri said:

    Aside from OP's statements about ammo I'd say looking at raising artillery HPs might be worth it, particularly for Single Weapon units like Queen Bess and Hell Cannons. Especially if what @saweendra says is true.

    saweendra said:

    the HP distribution of some cannon are off for Example @Wyvern2 does YT video showing that crew has more HP than the cannon piece for Queen bess , i would prefer cannon piece have more HP than crew.

    also reload animation for cannons so we know how much crew is needed to operate them visually

    check the part on queen bess



    It would be nice if Cannons got 100 or so armor... I mean they're metal without any vital organs.
  • saweendra#3399saweendra#3399 Registered Users Posts: 19,327
    OdTengri said:

    saweendra said:

    OdTengri said:

    Aside from OP's statements about ammo I'd say looking at raising artillery HPs might be worth it, particularly for Single Weapon units like Queen Bess and Hell Cannons. Especially if what @saweendra says is true.

    saweendra said:

    the HP distribution of some cannon are off for Example @Wyvern2 does YT video showing that crew has more HP than the cannon piece for Queen bess , i would prefer cannon piece have more HP than crew.

    also reload animation for cannons so we know how much crew is needed to operate them visually

    check the part on queen bess



    It would be nice if Cannons got 100 or so armor... I mean they're metal without any vital organs.
    Yeah they cannon piece them self need to lot more tanky

    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc


  • OdTengri#8235OdTengri#8235 Registered Users Posts: 10,211
    saweendra said:

    OdTengri said:

    saweendra said:

    OdTengri said:

    Aside from OP's statements about ammo I'd say looking at raising artillery HPs might be worth it, particularly for Single Weapon units like Queen Bess and Hell Cannons. Especially if what @saweendra says is true.

    saweendra said:

    the HP distribution of some cannon are off for Example @Wyvern2 does YT video showing that crew has more HP than the cannon piece for Queen bess , i would prefer cannon piece have more HP than crew.

    also reload animation for cannons so we know how much crew is needed to operate them visually

    check the part on queen bess



    It would be nice if Cannons got 100 or so armor... I mean they're metal without any vital organs.
    Yeah they cannon piece them self need to lot more tanky
    Aside from being hit by other cannons or giants/mammoths... they really shouldn't be destroyable.
  • RazeAndBurnRazeAndBurn Registered Users Posts: 475
    This just shows how ridiculously OP the concept of weapon teams is. Too many models and firepower, too much mobility. Artillery in this replay was shut down despite having all of its' innate advanatges once the jezails arrived within their range.

    Later Turin also runs away with jezails from State Troops which is also ridiculous...
  • eumaies#1128eumaies#1128 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 9,508

    This just shows how ridiculously OP the concept of weapon teams is. Too many models and firepower, too much mobility. Artillery in this replay was shut down despite having all of its' innate advanatges once the jezails arrived within their range.

    Later Turin also runs away with jezails from State Troops which is also ridiculous...

    weapons teams are pretty versatile. But no this video shows nothing of the sort. 3 900 point weapons teams will beat 2 cannons, in spite of being signicantly weaker in a straight up trade at equal cost or even equal numbers. This is not surprising.
  • eumaies#1128eumaies#1128 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 9,508
    but i do agree weapons teams should be significantly slower. It's enough that they're mobile, they don't deserve to be as fast as basic skaven infantry.
  • KIT#5531KIT#5531 Registered Users Posts: 485
    Increase the damage ouput of gunpowerderunits. One or two volleys from a cannon to kill a monster one or two volley from rilfeman to kill an infantry regiment. This will compensate the fact that they die so fast.
  • KIT#5531KIT#5531 Registered Users Posts: 485
    Furthermore shooting on enemy regiments with gunpowerd should cause fear and terror
  • ShevaTsar#8662ShevaTsar#8662 Registered Users Posts: 642
    KIT1986 said:

    Increase the damage ouput of gunpowerderunits. One or two volleys from a cannon to kill a monster one or two volley from rilfeman to kill an infantry regiment. This will compensate the fact that they die so fast.

    KIT1986 said:

    Furthermore shooting on enemy regiments with gunpowerd should cause fear and terror

    Lmao
    Welcome to Cathay - the very ancient, super-duper, hyper, fantastic, incredible, majestic, wonderful, sexy, mighty empire, the greatest of all livings.
  • Cukie251Cukie251 Registered Users Posts: 1,213
    KIT1986 said:

    Increase the damage ouput of gunpowerderunits. One or two volleys from a cannon to kill a monster one or two volley from rilfeman to kill an infantry regiment. This will compensate the fact that they die so fast.

    I hate to say it, but you clearly don't know what you're talking about dude
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