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Will there be skaven units with rifles for upcoming warhammer 3?

JetFuelDingoJetFuelDingo Registered Users Posts: 65
Aside from missing units such as stormfiends or the horned rat gods?
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  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Registered Users Posts: 29,758
    Warplocks are already in the game broski.
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  • GoatforceGoatforce Registered Users Posts: 7,080
    Eh? What? We have Jezzails already, those are the Skaven rifles. Don't think there are any skaven gun units left at all.

    We will get Verminlords, probably Stormfiends, not much else left.
  • Pr4vdaPr4vda Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,815
    I just wish we could get skaven warplocks or warlords with pistol.

    And at some extent to other races (dawi lord with pistol and axe, empire lord with pistol and sword, etc.).
    Team Dawis

    Dawis shall purge all their fallen Karaks, with the blood of the Greeskins and the skavens !
  • davedave1124davedave1124 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 16,085
    I think Warplock Pistol Armed Stormvermin would be acceptable.
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 10,966
    If you mean something like a skaven equivalent to handgunner units...

    Skaven don't really do mass production of their technology. The game already exaggerates just how common Skryre weapons were compared to the tabletop: apart from Jezzails, they were usually deployed individually, and the army book makes a comment about how there are legends of how a particularly rich clan managed to deploy an entire unit of ratling guns (but doing so was never an option on the tabletop). Now, units were generally smaller on tabletop than in TWW, but translated into TWW, you'd probably have weapon teams (except, again, jezzails) being deployed in units of 3 at Large unit scales rather than ten times that. But, having so few weapon teams per unit would suck for slot efficiency, so they were beefed up for gameplay reasons.

    Why this is the case can probably be summed up as "Clan Skryre charges exorbitant prices", but I think there's also economic and cultural factors. The economic factor is that basically everything the Skaven have above basic combat equipment - Skryre magitech, most Moulder monsters, Eshin Weeping Blades, Pestilens plagues - requires Warpstone, making it a limiting resource for the skaven. It's probably more efficient for the available warpstone to go towards a handful of high-power machines rather than trying to equip regiments with handguns.

    While the cultural factor is... well, historically guns have been called "the great equaliser" for a reason. They provide a means for someone with otherwise limited means to kill someone much higher on the social chain than themselves. As a result, Warlords and Chieftains might prefer to hand out a handful of sniper rifles to trusted marksmen than to try to equip regiments of handgunners or riflerats. They might still get shot at occasionally, but it makes for a smaller pool of potential traitors to sift through when they do.
  • GoatforceGoatforce Registered Users Posts: 7,080
    Pr4vda said:

    I just wish we could get skaven warplocks or warlords with pistol.

    And at some extent to other races (dawi lord with pistol and axe, empire lord with pistol and sword, etc.).

    Good point. Not giving Warlock Masters pistols was a collossal wasted opportunity
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 33,826
    Draxynnic said:

    If you mean something like a skaven equivalent to handgunner units...

    Skaven don't really do mass production of their technology. The game already exaggerates just how common Skryre weapons were compared to the tabletop: apart from Jezzails, they were usually deployed individually, and the army book makes a comment about how there are legends of how a particularly rich clan managed to deploy an entire unit of ratling guns (but doing so was never an option on the tabletop). Now, units were generally smaller on tabletop than in TWW, but translated into TWW, you'd probably have weapon teams (except, again, jezzails) being deployed in units of 3 at Large unit scales rather than ten times that. But, having so few weapon teams per unit would suck for slot efficiency, so they were beefed up for gameplay reasons.

    Why this is the case can probably be summed up as "Clan Skryre charges exorbitant prices", but I think there's also economic and cultural factors. The economic factor is that basically everything the Skaven have above basic combat equipment - Skryre magitech, most Moulder monsters, Eshin Weeping Blades, Pestilens plagues - requires Warpstone, making it a limiting resource for the skaven. It's probably more efficient for the available warpstone to go towards a handful of high-power machines rather than trying to equip regiments with handguns.

    While the cultural factor is... well, historically guns have been called "the great equaliser" for a reason. They provide a means for someone with otherwise limited means to kill someone much higher on the social chain than themselves. As a result, Warlords and Chieftains might prefer to hand out a handful of sniper rifles to trusted marksmen than to try to equip regiments of handgunners or riflerats. They might still get shot at occasionally, but it makes for a smaller pool of potential traitors to sift through when they do.

    There's actually no real reason why Skaven didn't come up with something like the Tercio style formation which would be perfect to combine their large numbers with their access to advanced ranged firepower.



    The only reason is that this would make Skaven play too similar to the Empire since the detachment system is already vaguely simulating the Tercio.


  • UagrimUagrim Registered Users Posts: 1,893

    Draxynnic said:

    If you mean something like a skaven equivalent to handgunner units...

    Skaven don't really do mass production of their technology. The game already exaggerates just how common Skryre weapons were compared to the tabletop: apart from Jezzails, they were usually deployed individually, and the army book makes a comment about how there are legends of how a particularly rich clan managed to deploy an entire unit of ratling guns (but doing so was never an option on the tabletop). Now, units were generally smaller on tabletop than in TWW, but translated into TWW, you'd probably have weapon teams (except, again, jezzails) being deployed in units of 3 at Large unit scales rather than ten times that. But, having so few weapon teams per unit would suck for slot efficiency, so they were beefed up for gameplay reasons.

    Why this is the case can probably be summed up as "Clan Skryre charges exorbitant prices", but I think there's also economic and cultural factors. The economic factor is that basically everything the Skaven have above basic combat equipment - Skryre magitech, most Moulder monsters, Eshin Weeping Blades, Pestilens plagues - requires Warpstone, making it a limiting resource for the skaven. It's probably more efficient for the available warpstone to go towards a handful of high-power machines rather than trying to equip regiments with handguns.

    While the cultural factor is... well, historically guns have been called "the great equaliser" for a reason. They provide a means for someone with otherwise limited means to kill someone much higher on the social chain than themselves. As a result, Warlords and Chieftains might prefer to hand out a handful of sniper rifles to trusted marksmen than to try to equip regiments of handgunners or riflerats. They might still get shot at occasionally, but it makes for a smaller pool of potential traitors to sift through when they do.

    There's actually no real reason why Skaven didn't come up with something like the Tercio style formation which would be perfect to combine their large numbers with their access to advanced ranged firepower.



    The only reason is that this would make Skaven play too similar to the Empire since the detachment system is already vaguely simulating the Tercio.
    Except you know general skaven discipline being absolutely worthless outside of stormvermine. They wont hold any formation for long not when they get shot by artillery or ranged units. Skaven aren't an army they are a horde of selfish pricks that always seek to rise up by killing everyone above them.
  • CaesarSahlertzCaesarSahlertz Registered Users Posts: 5,718

    Draxynnic said:

    If you mean something like a skaven equivalent to handgunner units...

    Skaven don't really do mass production of their technology. The game already exaggerates just how common Skryre weapons were compared to the tabletop: apart from Jezzails, they were usually deployed individually, and the army book makes a comment about how there are legends of how a particularly rich clan managed to deploy an entire unit of ratling guns (but doing so was never an option on the tabletop). Now, units were generally smaller on tabletop than in TWW, but translated into TWW, you'd probably have weapon teams (except, again, jezzails) being deployed in units of 3 at Large unit scales rather than ten times that. But, having so few weapon teams per unit would suck for slot efficiency, so they were beefed up for gameplay reasons.

    Why this is the case can probably be summed up as "Clan Skryre charges exorbitant prices", but I think there's also economic and cultural factors. The economic factor is that basically everything the Skaven have above basic combat equipment - Skryre magitech, most Moulder monsters, Eshin Weeping Blades, Pestilens plagues - requires Warpstone, making it a limiting resource for the skaven. It's probably more efficient for the available warpstone to go towards a handful of high-power machines rather than trying to equip regiments with handguns.

    While the cultural factor is... well, historically guns have been called "the great equaliser" for a reason. They provide a means for someone with otherwise limited means to kill someone much higher on the social chain than themselves. As a result, Warlords and Chieftains might prefer to hand out a handful of sniper rifles to trusted marksmen than to try to equip regiments of handgunners or riflerats. They might still get shot at occasionally, but it makes for a smaller pool of potential traitors to sift through when they do.

    There's actually no real reason why Skaven didn't come up with something like the Tercio style formation which would be perfect to combine their large numbers with their access to advanced ranged firepower.



    The only reason is that this would make Skaven play too similar to the Empire since the detachment system is already vaguely simulating the Tercio.
    In a world of magic and devastating magical explosions, there is absolutely no reason that any faction ever came up with formation warfare....
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 33,826
    Uagrim said:

    Draxynnic said:

    If you mean something like a skaven equivalent to handgunner units...

    Skaven don't really do mass production of their technology. The game already exaggerates just how common Skryre weapons were compared to the tabletop: apart from Jezzails, they were usually deployed individually, and the army book makes a comment about how there are legends of how a particularly rich clan managed to deploy an entire unit of ratling guns (but doing so was never an option on the tabletop). Now, units were generally smaller on tabletop than in TWW, but translated into TWW, you'd probably have weapon teams (except, again, jezzails) being deployed in units of 3 at Large unit scales rather than ten times that. But, having so few weapon teams per unit would suck for slot efficiency, so they were beefed up for gameplay reasons.

    Why this is the case can probably be summed up as "Clan Skryre charges exorbitant prices", but I think there's also economic and cultural factors. The economic factor is that basically everything the Skaven have above basic combat equipment - Skryre magitech, most Moulder monsters, Eshin Weeping Blades, Pestilens plagues - requires Warpstone, making it a limiting resource for the skaven. It's probably more efficient for the available warpstone to go towards a handful of high-power machines rather than trying to equip regiments with handguns.

    While the cultural factor is... well, historically guns have been called "the great equaliser" for a reason. They provide a means for someone with otherwise limited means to kill someone much higher on the social chain than themselves. As a result, Warlords and Chieftains might prefer to hand out a handful of sniper rifles to trusted marksmen than to try to equip regiments of handgunners or riflerats. They might still get shot at occasionally, but it makes for a smaller pool of potential traitors to sift through when they do.

    There's actually no real reason why Skaven didn't come up with something like the Tercio style formation which would be perfect to combine their large numbers with their access to advanced ranged firepower.



    The only reason is that this would make Skaven play too similar to the Empire since the detachment system is already vaguely simulating the Tercio.
    Except you know general skaven discipline being absolutely worthless outside of stormvermine. They wont hold any formation for long not when they get shot by artillery or ranged units. Skaven aren't an army they are a horde of selfish pricks that always seek to rise up by killing everyone above them.
    In that case they'd never be able to pose much of a threat to any organized military ever. If their military was as disorganized as you claim it to be, they'd simply never get anything done outside of raids on unprotected assets.

    So of course that's just exaggeration since the Skaven actually are a major threat in the Warhammer world, so they must have a modicum of discipline and organization to allow the strategic use of armies with combined arms.


  • UagrimUagrim Registered Users Posts: 1,893

    Uagrim said:

    Draxynnic said:

    If you mean something like a skaven equivalent to handgunner units...

    Skaven don't really do mass production of their technology. The game already exaggerates just how common Skryre weapons were compared to the tabletop: apart from Jezzails, they were usually deployed individually, and the army book makes a comment about how there are legends of how a particularly rich clan managed to deploy an entire unit of ratling guns (but doing so was never an option on the tabletop). Now, units were generally smaller on tabletop than in TWW, but translated into TWW, you'd probably have weapon teams (except, again, jezzails) being deployed in units of 3 at Large unit scales rather than ten times that. But, having so few weapon teams per unit would suck for slot efficiency, so they were beefed up for gameplay reasons.

    Why this is the case can probably be summed up as "Clan Skryre charges exorbitant prices", but I think there's also economic and cultural factors. The economic factor is that basically everything the Skaven have above basic combat equipment - Skryre magitech, most Moulder monsters, Eshin Weeping Blades, Pestilens plagues - requires Warpstone, making it a limiting resource for the skaven. It's probably more efficient for the available warpstone to go towards a handful of high-power machines rather than trying to equip regiments with handguns.

    While the cultural factor is... well, historically guns have been called "the great equaliser" for a reason. They provide a means for someone with otherwise limited means to kill someone much higher on the social chain than themselves. As a result, Warlords and Chieftains might prefer to hand out a handful of sniper rifles to trusted marksmen than to try to equip regiments of handgunners or riflerats. They might still get shot at occasionally, but it makes for a smaller pool of potential traitors to sift through when they do.

    There's actually no real reason why Skaven didn't come up with something like the Tercio style formation which would be perfect to combine their large numbers with their access to advanced ranged firepower.



    The only reason is that this would make Skaven play too similar to the Empire since the detachment system is already vaguely simulating the Tercio.
    Except you know general skaven discipline being absolutely worthless outside of stormvermine. They wont hold any formation for long not when they get shot by artillery or ranged units. Skaven aren't an army they are a horde of selfish pricks that always seek to rise up by killing everyone above them.
    In that case they'd never be able to pose much of a threat to any organized military ever. If their military was as disorganized as you claim it to be, they'd simply never get anything done outside of raids on unprotected assets.

    So of course that's just exaggeration since the Skaven actually are a major threat in the Warhammer world, so they must have a modicum of discipline and organization to allow the strategic use of armies with combined arms.
    They pose a threat mostly because they are so numerous and their carelessly pushing of technology, magic and biology to its limits. They aren't dangerous because they make highly disciplined armies that meet threats in open combat but exactly because they go after unprotected and weakened assets. In combat discipin they are more like the greenskins and beastmen lousy and with a surprising tendency to run quickly if things don't go their way.
  • hendo1592hendo1592 Registered Users Posts: 2,691
    We have the rifles already in game, but isnt there a skaven unit with swords and warp pistols?
  • yolordmcswagyolordmcswag Registered Users Posts: 3,801

    Draxynnic said:

    If you mean something like a skaven equivalent to handgunner units...

    Skaven don't really do mass production of their technology. The game already exaggerates just how common Skryre weapons were compared to the tabletop: apart from Jezzails, they were usually deployed individually, and the army book makes a comment about how there are legends of how a particularly rich clan managed to deploy an entire unit of ratling guns (but doing so was never an option on the tabletop). Now, units were generally smaller on tabletop than in TWW, but translated into TWW, you'd probably have weapon teams (except, again, jezzails) being deployed in units of 3 at Large unit scales rather than ten times that. But, having so few weapon teams per unit would suck for slot efficiency, so they were beefed up for gameplay reasons.

    Why this is the case can probably be summed up as "Clan Skryre charges exorbitant prices", but I think there's also economic and cultural factors. The economic factor is that basically everything the Skaven have above basic combat equipment - Skryre magitech, most Moulder monsters, Eshin Weeping Blades, Pestilens plagues - requires Warpstone, making it a limiting resource for the skaven. It's probably more efficient for the available warpstone to go towards a handful of high-power machines rather than trying to equip regiments with handguns.

    While the cultural factor is... well, historically guns have been called "the great equaliser" for a reason. They provide a means for someone with otherwise limited means to kill someone much higher on the social chain than themselves. As a result, Warlords and Chieftains might prefer to hand out a handful of sniper rifles to trusted marksmen than to try to equip regiments of handgunners or riflerats. They might still get shot at occasionally, but it makes for a smaller pool of potential traitors to sift through when they do.

    There's actually no real reason why Skaven didn't come up with something like the Tercio style formation which would be perfect to combine their large numbers with their access to advanced ranged firepower.



    The only reason is that this would make Skaven play too similar to the Empire since the detachment system is already vaguely simulating the Tercio.
    In a world of magic and devastating magical explosions, there is absolutely no reason that any faction ever came up with formation warfare....
    Most battles in warhammer are still fought with large amounts of regular troops though. The amount of spellcasters and such in the lore was always a lot lower than on the TT or in other games. So of course they have formations, most races use them. Imperial detachments, dwarf shield walls, bretonnian lance formation, elven phalanxes etc.
  • davedave1124davedave1124 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 16,085
    Uagrim said:

    Uagrim said:

    Draxynnic said:

    If you mean something like a skaven equivalent to handgunner units...

    Skaven don't really do mass production of their technology. The game already exaggerates just how common Skryre weapons were compared to the tabletop: apart from Jezzails, they were usually deployed individually, and the army book makes a comment about how there are legends of how a particularly rich clan managed to deploy an entire unit of ratling guns (but doing so was never an option on the tabletop). Now, units were generally smaller on tabletop than in TWW, but translated into TWW, you'd probably have weapon teams (except, again, jezzails) being deployed in units of 3 at Large unit scales rather than ten times that. But, having so few weapon teams per unit would suck for slot efficiency, so they were beefed up for gameplay reasons.

    Why this is the case can probably be summed up as "Clan Skryre charges exorbitant prices", but I think there's also economic and cultural factors. The economic factor is that basically everything the Skaven have above basic combat equipment - Skryre magitech, most Moulder monsters, Eshin Weeping Blades, Pestilens plagues - requires Warpstone, making it a limiting resource for the skaven. It's probably more efficient for the available warpstone to go towards a handful of high-power machines rather than trying to equip regiments with handguns.

    While the cultural factor is... well, historically guns have been called "the great equaliser" for a reason. They provide a means for someone with otherwise limited means to kill someone much higher on the social chain than themselves. As a result, Warlords and Chieftains might prefer to hand out a handful of sniper rifles to trusted marksmen than to try to equip regiments of handgunners or riflerats. They might still get shot at occasionally, but it makes for a smaller pool of potential traitors to sift through when they do.

    There's actually no real reason why Skaven didn't come up with something like the Tercio style formation which would be perfect to combine their large numbers with their access to advanced ranged firepower.



    The only reason is that this would make Skaven play too similar to the Empire since the detachment system is already vaguely simulating the Tercio.
    Except you know general skaven discipline being absolutely worthless outside of stormvermine. They wont hold any formation for long not when they get shot by artillery or ranged units. Skaven aren't an army they are a horde of selfish pricks that always seek to rise up by killing everyone above them.
    In that case they'd never be able to pose much of a threat to any organized military ever. If their military was as disorganized as you claim it to be, they'd simply never get anything done outside of raids on unprotected assets.

    So of course that's just exaggeration since the Skaven actually are a major threat in the Warhammer world, so they must have a modicum of discipline and organization to allow the strategic use of armies with combined arms.
    They pose a threat mostly because they are so numerous and their carelessly pushing of technology, magic and biology to its limits. They aren't dangerous because they make highly disciplined armies that meet threats in open combat but exactly because they go after unprotected and weakened assets. In combat discipin they are more like the greenskins and beastmen lousy and with a surprising tendency to run quickly if things don't go their way.
    I think you’re over simplifying Skaven here. They often have hard fights against organised armies. Their overall troops are weaker than others but their Stormvermin (which are numerous) and Eshin units are useful assets on the battlefield.

    There are few heroes in Skavendom but I’m pretty sure then do as they’re told as they are aware how they’ll be treated for blatant cowardice. They can run but who to? The loving arms of the rung above?
  • MaelasMaelas Registered Users Posts: 4,720
    Verminlords, Stormfiends and Giant Rats will probably be their next (and last) DLC. Technically Stormfiends kind of have rifles, I suppose.
    I believe in Slaanesh supremacy
  • UagrimUagrim Registered Users Posts: 1,893

    Uagrim said:

    Uagrim said:

    Draxynnic said:

    If you mean something like a skaven equivalent to handgunner units...

    Skaven don't really do mass production of their technology. The game already exaggerates just how common Skryre weapons were compared to the tabletop: apart from Jezzails, they were usually deployed individually, and the army book makes a comment about how there are legends of how a particularly rich clan managed to deploy an entire unit of ratling guns (but doing so was never an option on the tabletop). Now, units were generally smaller on tabletop than in TWW, but translated into TWW, you'd probably have weapon teams (except, again, jezzails) being deployed in units of 3 at Large unit scales rather than ten times that. But, having so few weapon teams per unit would suck for slot efficiency, so they were beefed up for gameplay reasons.

    Why this is the case can probably be summed up as "Clan Skryre charges exorbitant prices", but I think there's also economic and cultural factors. The economic factor is that basically everything the Skaven have above basic combat equipment - Skryre magitech, most Moulder monsters, Eshin Weeping Blades, Pestilens plagues - requires Warpstone, making it a limiting resource for the skaven. It's probably more efficient for the available warpstone to go towards a handful of high-power machines rather than trying to equip regiments with handguns.

    While the cultural factor is... well, historically guns have been called "the great equaliser" for a reason. They provide a means for someone with otherwise limited means to kill someone much higher on the social chain than themselves. As a result, Warlords and Chieftains might prefer to hand out a handful of sniper rifles to trusted marksmen than to try to equip regiments of handgunners or riflerats. They might still get shot at occasionally, but it makes for a smaller pool of potential traitors to sift through when they do.

    There's actually no real reason why Skaven didn't come up with something like the Tercio style formation which would be perfect to combine their large numbers with their access to advanced ranged firepower.



    The only reason is that this would make Skaven play too similar to the Empire since the detachment system is already vaguely simulating the Tercio.
    Except you know general skaven discipline being absolutely worthless outside of stormvermine. They wont hold any formation for long not when they get shot by artillery or ranged units. Skaven aren't an army they are a horde of selfish pricks that always seek to rise up by killing everyone above them.
    In that case they'd never be able to pose much of a threat to any organized military ever. If their military was as disorganized as you claim it to be, they'd simply never get anything done outside of raids on unprotected assets.

    So of course that's just exaggeration since the Skaven actually are a major threat in the Warhammer world, so they must have a modicum of discipline and organization to allow the strategic use of armies with combined arms.
    They pose a threat mostly because they are so numerous and their carelessly pushing of technology, magic and biology to its limits. They aren't dangerous because they make highly disciplined armies that meet threats in open combat but exactly because they go after unprotected and weakened assets. In combat discipin they are more like the greenskins and beastmen lousy and with a surprising tendency to run quickly if things don't go their way.
    I think you’re over simplifying Skaven here. They often have hard fights against organised armies. Their overall troops are weaker than others but their Stormvermin (which are numerous) and Eshin units are useful assets on the battlefield.

    There are few heroes in Skavendom but I’m pretty sure then do as they’re told as they are aware how they’ll be treated for blatant cowardice. They can run but who to? The loving arms of the rung above?
    Tell that to tretch who made a career of running away yet never gets cut up for it. Running and having a chance of surviving is almost always better in the skaven mind than dying fighting something. You just don't have to be near when the upper rungs start looking for people to blame.
  • CaesarSahlertzCaesarSahlertz Registered Users Posts: 5,718

    Draxynnic said:

    If you mean something like a skaven equivalent to handgunner units...

    Skaven don't really do mass production of their technology. The game already exaggerates just how common Skryre weapons were compared to the tabletop: apart from Jezzails, they were usually deployed individually, and the army book makes a comment about how there are legends of how a particularly rich clan managed to deploy an entire unit of ratling guns (but doing so was never an option on the tabletop). Now, units were generally smaller on tabletop than in TWW, but translated into TWW, you'd probably have weapon teams (except, again, jezzails) being deployed in units of 3 at Large unit scales rather than ten times that. But, having so few weapon teams per unit would suck for slot efficiency, so they were beefed up for gameplay reasons.

    Why this is the case can probably be summed up as "Clan Skryre charges exorbitant prices", but I think there's also economic and cultural factors. The economic factor is that basically everything the Skaven have above basic combat equipment - Skryre magitech, most Moulder monsters, Eshin Weeping Blades, Pestilens plagues - requires Warpstone, making it a limiting resource for the skaven. It's probably more efficient for the available warpstone to go towards a handful of high-power machines rather than trying to equip regiments with handguns.

    While the cultural factor is... well, historically guns have been called "the great equaliser" for a reason. They provide a means for someone with otherwise limited means to kill someone much higher on the social chain than themselves. As a result, Warlords and Chieftains might prefer to hand out a handful of sniper rifles to trusted marksmen than to try to equip regiments of handgunners or riflerats. They might still get shot at occasionally, but it makes for a smaller pool of potential traitors to sift through when they do.

    There's actually no real reason why Skaven didn't come up with something like the Tercio style formation which would be perfect to combine their large numbers with their access to advanced ranged firepower.



    The only reason is that this would make Skaven play too similar to the Empire since the detachment system is already vaguely simulating the Tercio.
    In a world of magic and devastating magical explosions, there is absolutely no reason that any faction ever came up with formation warfare....
    Most battles in warhammer are still fought with large amounts of regular troops though. The amount of spellcasters and such in the lore was always a lot lower than on the TT or in other games. So of course they have formations, most races use them. Imperial detachments, dwarf shield walls, bretonnian lance formation, elven phalanxes etc.
    There are also other stuff than magic which would have led to a world without formation warfare. The fact that there are threats like Trolls, Giants, Ogres, Minotaurs, even Orcs and Beastmen, that are all so massively bigger, stronger and tougher than humans, would simply mean that you wouldn't pack troops together.. Though.. Ogres, Minotaurs and the others (if they had the mind for it) would probably have invented formation warfare, since such a formation would be almost literally impenetrable for any enemy of a smaller size than themselves.. So to revise my original point: There is no way that any human-sized or smaller people in the Warhammer world would have ever invented formation warfare..
  • Beef545Beef545 Registered Users Posts: 764
    Hope not, we have enough of them already. Both ikit and snikch themes are so overdone and ridiculous you actually have to not build them on purpose to somewhat enjoy a campaign( if we can call skaven campaign enjoyable at all, numbers speak for themselves).
    The age of Men is over. The time of the Troll has come.
  • yolordmcswagyolordmcswag Registered Users Posts: 3,801

    Draxynnic said:

    If you mean something like a skaven equivalent to handgunner units...

    Skaven don't really do mass production of their technology. The game already exaggerates just how common Skryre weapons were compared to the tabletop: apart from Jezzails, they were usually deployed individually, and the army book makes a comment about how there are legends of how a particularly rich clan managed to deploy an entire unit of ratling guns (but doing so was never an option on the tabletop). Now, units were generally smaller on tabletop than in TWW, but translated into TWW, you'd probably have weapon teams (except, again, jezzails) being deployed in units of 3 at Large unit scales rather than ten times that. But, having so few weapon teams per unit would suck for slot efficiency, so they were beefed up for gameplay reasons.

    Why this is the case can probably be summed up as "Clan Skryre charges exorbitant prices", but I think there's also economic and cultural factors. The economic factor is that basically everything the Skaven have above basic combat equipment - Skryre magitech, most Moulder monsters, Eshin Weeping Blades, Pestilens plagues - requires Warpstone, making it a limiting resource for the skaven. It's probably more efficient for the available warpstone to go towards a handful of high-power machines rather than trying to equip regiments with handguns.

    While the cultural factor is... well, historically guns have been called "the great equaliser" for a reason. They provide a means for someone with otherwise limited means to kill someone much higher on the social chain than themselves. As a result, Warlords and Chieftains might prefer to hand out a handful of sniper rifles to trusted marksmen than to try to equip regiments of handgunners or riflerats. They might still get shot at occasionally, but it makes for a smaller pool of potential traitors to sift through when they do.

    There's actually no real reason why Skaven didn't come up with something like the Tercio style formation which would be perfect to combine their large numbers with their access to advanced ranged firepower.



    The only reason is that this would make Skaven play too similar to the Empire since the detachment system is already vaguely simulating the Tercio.
    In a world of magic and devastating magical explosions, there is absolutely no reason that any faction ever came up with formation warfare....
    Most battles in warhammer are still fought with large amounts of regular troops though. The amount of spellcasters and such in the lore was always a lot lower than on the TT or in other games. So of course they have formations, most races use them. Imperial detachments, dwarf shield walls, bretonnian lance formation, elven phalanxes etc.
    There are also other stuff than magic which would have led to a world without formation warfare. The fact that there are threats like Trolls, Giants, Ogres, Minotaurs, even Orcs and Beastmen, that are all so massively bigger, stronger and tougher than humans, would simply mean that you wouldn't pack troops together.. Though.. Ogres, Minotaurs and the others (if they had the mind for it) would probably have invented formation warfare, since such a formation would be almost literally impenetrable for any enemy of a smaller size than themselves.. So to revise my original point: There is no way that any human-sized or smaller people in the Warhammer world would have ever invented formation warfare..
    I don't know why you are saying that they "would not" have invented it, we know for a fact that they did invent it. There are countless examples of the different races employing formations in battle. And especially when faced with bigger and stronger opponents, formation are important. Spread out and fighting individually humans would stand little chance against bigger and stronger foes like gors or orcs, but in tight formation and with proper discipline they can support each other and beat the more powerful foes.

    Walls of spears and pikes would also work very well against big creatures like trolls and such, they can't block all the strikes at the same time and running into spears will have them impale themselves. If the smaller guys were spread out the big guys would just walk straight through them, run them down with their superior mass.
  • davedave1124davedave1124 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 16,085
    Uagrim said:

    Uagrim said:

    Uagrim said:

    Draxynnic said:

    If you mean something like a skaven equivalent to handgunner units...

    Skaven don't really do mass production of their technology. The game already exaggerates just how common Skryre weapons were compared to the tabletop: apart from Jezzails, they were usually deployed individually, and the army book makes a comment about how there are legends of how a particularly rich clan managed to deploy an entire unit of ratling guns (but doing so was never an option on the tabletop). Now, units were generally smaller on tabletop than in TWW, but translated into TWW, you'd probably have weapon teams (except, again, jezzails) being deployed in units of 3 at Large unit scales rather than ten times that. But, having so few weapon teams per unit would suck for slot efficiency, so they were beefed up for gameplay reasons.

    Why this is the case can probably be summed up as "Clan Skryre charges exorbitant prices", but I think there's also economic and cultural factors. The economic factor is that basically everything the Skaven have above basic combat equipment - Skryre magitech, most Moulder monsters, Eshin Weeping Blades, Pestilens plagues - requires Warpstone, making it a limiting resource for the skaven. It's probably more efficient for the available warpstone to go towards a handful of high-power machines rather than trying to equip regiments with handguns.

    While the cultural factor is... well, historically guns have been called "the great equaliser" for a reason. They provide a means for someone with otherwise limited means to kill someone much higher on the social chain than themselves. As a result, Warlords and Chieftains might prefer to hand out a handful of sniper rifles to trusted marksmen than to try to equip regiments of handgunners or riflerats. They might still get shot at occasionally, but it makes for a smaller pool of potential traitors to sift through when they do.

    There's actually no real reason why Skaven didn't come up with something like the Tercio style formation which would be perfect to combine their large numbers with their access to advanced ranged firepower.



    The only reason is that this would make Skaven play too similar to the Empire since the detachment system is already vaguely simulating the Tercio.
    Except you know general skaven discipline being absolutely worthless outside of stormvermine. They wont hold any formation for long not when they get shot by artillery or ranged units. Skaven aren't an army they are a horde of selfish pricks that always seek to rise up by killing everyone above them.
    In that case they'd never be able to pose much of a threat to any organized military ever. If their military was as disorganized as you claim it to be, they'd simply never get anything done outside of raids on unprotected assets.

    So of course that's just exaggeration since the Skaven actually are a major threat in the Warhammer world, so they must have a modicum of discipline and organization to allow the strategic use of armies with combined arms.
    They pose a threat mostly because they are so numerous and their carelessly pushing of technology, magic and biology to its limits. They aren't dangerous because they make highly disciplined armies that meet threats in open combat but exactly because they go after unprotected and weakened assets. In combat discipin they are more like the greenskins and beastmen lousy and with a surprising tendency to run quickly if things don't go their way.
    I think you’re over simplifying Skaven here. They often have hard fights against organised armies. Their overall troops are weaker than others but their Stormvermin (which are numerous) and Eshin units are useful assets on the battlefield.

    There are few heroes in Skavendom but I’m pretty sure then do as they’re told as they are aware how they’ll be treated for blatant cowardice. They can run but who to? The loving arms of the rung above?
    Tell that to tretch who made a career of running away yet never gets cut up for it. Running and having a chance of surviving is almost always better in the skaven mind than dying fighting something. You just don't have to be near when the upper rungs start looking for people to blame.
    I gave a general argument about the many factors that make up Skaven. You pointed out a single character.. ok what about Queek and Snikch?

    The upper rung know the limits of their army, so the lower units have the choice of running into the enemy or running into plague monks or Stormvermin.. not a great choice right?
  • davedave1124davedave1124 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 16,085
    Beef545 said:

    Hope not, we have enough of them already. Both ikit and snikch themes are so overdone and ridiculous you actually have to not build them on purpose to somewhat enjoy a campaign( if we can call skaven campaign enjoyable at all, numbers speak for themselves).


    Yep - second most enjoyable campaign.
  • UagrimUagrim Registered Users Posts: 1,893

    Uagrim said:

    Uagrim said:

    Uagrim said:

    Draxynnic said:

    If you mean something like a skaven equivalent to handgunner units...

    Skaven don't really do mass production of their technology. The game already exaggerates just how common Skryre weapons were compared to the tabletop: apart from Jezzails, they were usually deployed individually, and the army book makes a comment about how there are legends of how a particularly rich clan managed to deploy an entire unit of ratling guns (but doing so was never an option on the tabletop). Now, units were generally smaller on tabletop than in TWW, but translated into TWW, you'd probably have weapon teams (except, again, jezzails) being deployed in units of 3 at Large unit scales rather than ten times that. But, having so few weapon teams per unit would suck for slot efficiency, so they were beefed up for gameplay reasons.

    Why this is the case can probably be summed up as "Clan Skryre charges exorbitant prices", but I think there's also economic and cultural factors. The economic factor is that basically everything the Skaven have above basic combat equipment - Skryre magitech, most Moulder monsters, Eshin Weeping Blades, Pestilens plagues - requires Warpstone, making it a limiting resource for the skaven. It's probably more efficient for the available warpstone to go towards a handful of high-power machines rather than trying to equip regiments with handguns.

    While the cultural factor is... well, historically guns have been called "the great equaliser" for a reason. They provide a means for someone with otherwise limited means to kill someone much higher on the social chain than themselves. As a result, Warlords and Chieftains might prefer to hand out a handful of sniper rifles to trusted marksmen than to try to equip regiments of handgunners or riflerats. They might still get shot at occasionally, but it makes for a smaller pool of potential traitors to sift through when they do.

    There's actually no real reason why Skaven didn't come up with something like the Tercio style formation which would be perfect to combine their large numbers with their access to advanced ranged firepower.



    The only reason is that this would make Skaven play too similar to the Empire since the detachment system is already vaguely simulating the Tercio.
    Except you know general skaven discipline being absolutely worthless outside of stormvermine. They wont hold any formation for long not when they get shot by artillery or ranged units. Skaven aren't an army they are a horde of selfish pricks that always seek to rise up by killing everyone above them.
    In that case they'd never be able to pose much of a threat to any organized military ever. If their military was as disorganized as you claim it to be, they'd simply never get anything done outside of raids on unprotected assets.

    So of course that's just exaggeration since the Skaven actually are a major threat in the Warhammer world, so they must have a modicum of discipline and organization to allow the strategic use of armies with combined arms.
    They pose a threat mostly because they are so numerous and their carelessly pushing of technology, magic and biology to its limits. They aren't dangerous because they make highly disciplined armies that meet threats in open combat but exactly because they go after unprotected and weakened assets. In combat discipin they are more like the greenskins and beastmen lousy and with a surprising tendency to run quickly if things don't go their way.
    I think you’re over simplifying Skaven here. They often have hard fights against organised armies. Their overall troops are weaker than others but their Stormvermin (which are numerous) and Eshin units are useful assets on the battlefield.

    There are few heroes in Skavendom but I’m pretty sure then do as they’re told as they are aware how they’ll be treated for blatant cowardice. They can run but who to? The loving arms of the rung above?
    Tell that to tretch who made a career of running away yet never gets cut up for it. Running and having a chance of surviving is almost always better in the skaven mind than dying fighting something. You just don't have to be near when the upper rungs start looking for people to blame.
    I gave a general argument about the many factors that make up Skaven. You pointed out a single character.. ok what about Queek and Snikch?

    The upper rung know the limits of their army, so the lower units have the choice of running into the enemy or running into plague monks or Stormvermin.. not a great choice right?
    Queek is the general exception to the rule since clawn mors upper level are surprisingly loyal to each other. Something the grey seers are highly interested in. Snikch has better things to do than run down a clanrat that slipped away.

    As for the second part what is better running straight into a bunch of irondrakes that rosted your buddies like fish in a barrel or take your chance running with the rest of the horde and hope to get past the your own army who will have to worry about the enemy and so can spare less attention to you?
  • MythrilSoulMythrilSoul Registered Users Posts: 909
    @JetFuelDingo
    thinking of this?

    a warpmuskets you mean? no official unit about it as far i know

    but a unit of ratsketeers could be interesting
  • CaesarSahlertzCaesarSahlertz Registered Users Posts: 5,718

    Draxynnic said:

    If you mean something like a skaven equivalent to handgunner units...

    Skaven don't really do mass production of their technology. The game already exaggerates just how common Skryre weapons were compared to the tabletop: apart from Jezzails, they were usually deployed individually, and the army book makes a comment about how there are legends of how a particularly rich clan managed to deploy an entire unit of ratling guns (but doing so was never an option on the tabletop). Now, units were generally smaller on tabletop than in TWW, but translated into TWW, you'd probably have weapon teams (except, again, jezzails) being deployed in units of 3 at Large unit scales rather than ten times that. But, having so few weapon teams per unit would suck for slot efficiency, so they were beefed up for gameplay reasons.

    Why this is the case can probably be summed up as "Clan Skryre charges exorbitant prices", but I think there's also economic and cultural factors. The economic factor is that basically everything the Skaven have above basic combat equipment - Skryre magitech, most Moulder monsters, Eshin Weeping Blades, Pestilens plagues - requires Warpstone, making it a limiting resource for the skaven. It's probably more efficient for the available warpstone to go towards a handful of high-power machines rather than trying to equip regiments with handguns.

    While the cultural factor is... well, historically guns have been called "the great equaliser" for a reason. They provide a means for someone with otherwise limited means to kill someone much higher on the social chain than themselves. As a result, Warlords and Chieftains might prefer to hand out a handful of sniper rifles to trusted marksmen than to try to equip regiments of handgunners or riflerats. They might still get shot at occasionally, but it makes for a smaller pool of potential traitors to sift through when they do.

    There's actually no real reason why Skaven didn't come up with something like the Tercio style formation which would be perfect to combine their large numbers with their access to advanced ranged firepower.



    The only reason is that this would make Skaven play too similar to the Empire since the detachment system is already vaguely simulating the Tercio.
    In a world of magic and devastating magical explosions, there is absolutely no reason that any faction ever came up with formation warfare....
    Most battles in warhammer are still fought with large amounts of regular troops though. The amount of spellcasters and such in the lore was always a lot lower than on the TT or in other games. So of course they have formations, most races use them. Imperial detachments, dwarf shield walls, bretonnian lance formation, elven phalanxes etc.
    There are also other stuff than magic which would have led to a world without formation warfare. The fact that there are threats like Trolls, Giants, Ogres, Minotaurs, even Orcs and Beastmen, that are all so massively bigger, stronger and tougher than humans, would simply mean that you wouldn't pack troops together.. Though.. Ogres, Minotaurs and the others (if they had the mind for it) would probably have invented formation warfare, since such a formation would be almost literally impenetrable for any enemy of a smaller size than themselves.. So to revise my original point: There is no way that any human-sized or smaller people in the Warhammer world would have ever invented formation warfare..
    I don't know why you are saying that they "would not" have invented it, we know for a fact that they did invent it. There are countless examples of the different races employing formations in battle. And especially when faced with bigger and stronger opponents, formation are important. Spread out and fighting individually humans would stand little chance against bigger and stronger foes like gors or orcs, but in tight formation and with proper discipline they can support each other and beat the more powerful foes.

    Walls of spears and pikes would also work very well against big creatures like trolls and such, they can't block all the strikes at the same time and running into spears will have them impale themselves. If the smaller guys were spread out the big guys would just walk straight through them, run them down with their superior mass.
    The point is that they WOULDN'T have if we were looking at it realistically. There are simply too many threats that punish you for standing in tightly formed formations for it to ever become a relevant form of warfare. A single swipe of a Dragon's tail would obliterate half an army. A well placed fireball would incinierate a battleline center, leading to it crumble if a charge immediately followed. The point is that Warhammer is not a realistic world, so one shouldn't apply our world's logic to it. For this, it is important to understand the difference between realistic and realism..
  • davedave1124davedave1124 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 16,085
    Uagrim said:

    Uagrim said:

    Uagrim said:

    Uagrim said:

    Draxynnic said:

    If you mean something like a skaven equivalent to handgunner units...

    Skaven don't really do mass production of their technology. The game already exaggerates just how common Skryre weapons were compared to the tabletop: apart from Jezzails, they were usually deployed individually, and the army book makes a comment about how there are legends of how a particularly rich clan managed to deploy an entire unit of ratling guns (but doing so was never an option on the tabletop). Now, units were generally smaller on tabletop than in TWW, but translated into TWW, you'd probably have weapon teams (except, again, jezzails) being deployed in units of 3 at Large unit scales rather than ten times that. But, having so few weapon teams per unit would suck for slot efficiency, so they were beefed up for gameplay reasons.

    Why this is the case can probably be summed up as "Clan Skryre charges exorbitant prices", but I think there's also economic and cultural factors. The economic factor is that basically everything the Skaven have above basic combat equipment - Skryre magitech, most Moulder monsters, Eshin Weeping Blades, Pestilens plagues - requires Warpstone, making it a limiting resource for the skaven. It's probably more efficient for the available warpstone to go towards a handful of high-power machines rather than trying to equip regiments with handguns.

    While the cultural factor is... well, historically guns have been called "the great equaliser" for a reason. They provide a means for someone with otherwise limited means to kill someone much higher on the social chain than themselves. As a result, Warlords and Chieftains might prefer to hand out a handful of sniper rifles to trusted marksmen than to try to equip regiments of handgunners or riflerats. They might still get shot at occasionally, but it makes for a smaller pool of potential traitors to sift through when they do.

    There's actually no real reason why Skaven didn't come up with something like the Tercio style formation which would be perfect to combine their large numbers with their access to advanced ranged firepower.



    The only reason is that this would make Skaven play too similar to the Empire since the detachment system is already vaguely simulating the Tercio.
    Except you know general skaven discipline being absolutely worthless outside of stormvermine. They wont hold any formation for long not when they get shot by artillery or ranged units. Skaven aren't an army they are a horde of selfish pricks that always seek to rise up by killing everyone above them.
    In that case they'd never be able to pose much of a threat to any organized military ever. If their military was as disorganized as you claim it to be, they'd simply never get anything done outside of raids on unprotected assets.

    So of course that's just exaggeration since the Skaven actually are a major threat in the Warhammer world, so they must have a modicum of discipline and organization to allow the strategic use of armies with combined arms.
    They pose a threat mostly because they are so numerous and their carelessly pushing of technology, magic and biology to its limits. They aren't dangerous because they make highly disciplined armies that meet threats in open combat but exactly because they go after unprotected and weakened assets. In combat discipin they are more like the greenskins and beastmen lousy and with a surprising tendency to run quickly if things don't go their way.
    I think you’re over simplifying Skaven here. They often have hard fights against organised armies. Their overall troops are weaker than others but their Stormvermin (which are numerous) and Eshin units are useful assets on the battlefield.

    There are few heroes in Skavendom but I’m pretty sure then do as they’re told as they are aware how they’ll be treated for blatant cowardice. They can run but who to? The loving arms of the rung above?
    Tell that to tretch who made a career of running away yet never gets cut up for it. Running and having a chance of surviving is almost always better in the skaven mind than dying fighting something. You just don't have to be near when the upper rungs start looking for people to blame.
    I gave a general argument about the many factors that make up Skaven. You pointed out a single character.. ok what about Queek and Snikch?

    The upper rung know the limits of their army, so the lower units have the choice of running into the enemy or running into plague monks or Stormvermin.. not a great choice right?
    Queek is the general exception to the rule since clawn mors upper level are surprisingly loyal to each other. Something the grey seers are highly interested in. Snikch has better things to do than run down a clanrat that slipped away.

    As for the second part what is better running straight into a bunch of irondrakes that rosted your buddies like fish in a barrel or take your chance running with the rest of the horde and hope to get past the your own army who will have to worry about the enemy and so can spare less attention to you?
    Mors in general are well motivated and loyal up to a point, it’s not just the leadership. Queek is brave because he is unique, while Snikch is brave because he has absolute belief in his abilities just like the rest of Clan Eshin. So here, we have reasons for differing bravery.

    This is now moving from all Skaven will run in the opposite direction with little help to, Skaven May be more concerned about taking on Iron drakes than the Skaven behind them.

    It’s more complicated than the initial statement - as I said.
  • LordTorquemadoLordTorquemado Registered Users Posts: 1,999

    Draxynnic said:

    If you mean something like a skaven equivalent to handgunner units...

    Skaven don't really do mass production of their technology. The game already exaggerates just how common Skryre weapons were compared to the tabletop: apart from Jezzails, they were usually deployed individually, and the army book makes a comment about how there are legends of how a particularly rich clan managed to deploy an entire unit of ratling guns (but doing so was never an option on the tabletop). Now, units were generally smaller on tabletop than in TWW, but translated into TWW, you'd probably have weapon teams (except, again, jezzails) being deployed in units of 3 at Large unit scales rather than ten times that. But, having so few weapon teams per unit would suck for slot efficiency, so they were beefed up for gameplay reasons.

    Why this is the case can probably be summed up as "Clan Skryre charges exorbitant prices", but I think there's also economic and cultural factors. The economic factor is that basically everything the Skaven have above basic combat equipment - Skryre magitech, most Moulder monsters, Eshin Weeping Blades, Pestilens plagues - requires Warpstone, making it a limiting resource for the skaven. It's probably more efficient for the available warpstone to go towards a handful of high-power machines rather than trying to equip regiments with handguns.

    While the cultural factor is... well, historically guns have been called "the great equaliser" for a reason. They provide a means for someone with otherwise limited means to kill someone much higher on the social chain than themselves. As a result, Warlords and Chieftains might prefer to hand out a handful of sniper rifles to trusted marksmen than to try to equip regiments of handgunners or riflerats. They might still get shot at occasionally, but it makes for a smaller pool of potential traitors to sift through when they do.

    There's actually no real reason why Skaven didn't come up with something like the Tercio style formation which would be perfect to combine their large numbers with their access to advanced ranged firepower.



    The only reason is that this would make Skaven play too similar to the Empire since the detachment system is already vaguely simulating the Tercio.
    That’s reserved for Estalia, heretic.

    "You stumble about in darkness. There is no light here, no mercy. Naggarond has claimed the souls of better heroes than you."
  • yolordmcswagyolordmcswag Registered Users Posts: 3,801

    Draxynnic said:

    If you mean something like a skaven equivalent to handgunner units...

    Skaven don't really do mass production of their technology. The game already exaggerates just how common Skryre weapons were compared to the tabletop: apart from Jezzails, they were usually deployed individually, and the army book makes a comment about how there are legends of how a particularly rich clan managed to deploy an entire unit of ratling guns (but doing so was never an option on the tabletop). Now, units were generally smaller on tabletop than in TWW, but translated into TWW, you'd probably have weapon teams (except, again, jezzails) being deployed in units of 3 at Large unit scales rather than ten times that. But, having so few weapon teams per unit would suck for slot efficiency, so they were beefed up for gameplay reasons.

    Why this is the case can probably be summed up as "Clan Skryre charges exorbitant prices", but I think there's also economic and cultural factors. The economic factor is that basically everything the Skaven have above basic combat equipment - Skryre magitech, most Moulder monsters, Eshin Weeping Blades, Pestilens plagues - requires Warpstone, making it a limiting resource for the skaven. It's probably more efficient for the available warpstone to go towards a handful of high-power machines rather than trying to equip regiments with handguns.

    While the cultural factor is... well, historically guns have been called "the great equaliser" for a reason. They provide a means for someone with otherwise limited means to kill someone much higher on the social chain than themselves. As a result, Warlords and Chieftains might prefer to hand out a handful of sniper rifles to trusted marksmen than to try to equip regiments of handgunners or riflerats. They might still get shot at occasionally, but it makes for a smaller pool of potential traitors to sift through when they do.

    There's actually no real reason why Skaven didn't come up with something like the Tercio style formation which would be perfect to combine their large numbers with their access to advanced ranged firepower.



    The only reason is that this would make Skaven play too similar to the Empire since the detachment system is already vaguely simulating the Tercio.
    In a world of magic and devastating magical explosions, there is absolutely no reason that any faction ever came up with formation warfare....
    Most battles in warhammer are still fought with large amounts of regular troops though. The amount of spellcasters and such in the lore was always a lot lower than on the TT or in other games. So of course they have formations, most races use them. Imperial detachments, dwarf shield walls, bretonnian lance formation, elven phalanxes etc.
    There are also other stuff than magic which would have led to a world without formation warfare. The fact that there are threats like Trolls, Giants, Ogres, Minotaurs, even Orcs and Beastmen, that are all so massively bigger, stronger and tougher than humans, would simply mean that you wouldn't pack troops together.. Though.. Ogres, Minotaurs and the others (if they had the mind for it) would probably have invented formation warfare, since such a formation would be almost literally impenetrable for any enemy of a smaller size than themselves.. So to revise my original point: There is no way that any human-sized or smaller people in the Warhammer world would have ever invented formation warfare..
    I don't know why you are saying that they "would not" have invented it, we know for a fact that they did invent it. There are countless examples of the different races employing formations in battle. And especially when faced with bigger and stronger opponents, formation are important. Spread out and fighting individually humans would stand little chance against bigger and stronger foes like gors or orcs, but in tight formation and with proper discipline they can support each other and beat the more powerful foes.

    Walls of spears and pikes would also work very well against big creatures like trolls and such, they can't block all the strikes at the same time and running into spears will have them impale themselves. If the smaller guys were spread out the big guys would just walk straight through them, run them down with their superior mass.
    The point is that they WOULDN'T have if we were looking at it realistically. There are simply too many threats that punish you for standing in tightly formed formations for it to ever become a relevant form of warfare. A single swipe of a Dragon's tail would obliterate half an army. A well placed fireball would incinierate a battleline center, leading to it crumble if a charge immediately followed. The point is that Warhammer is not a realistic world, so one shouldn't apply our world's logic to it. For this, it is important to understand the difference between realistic and realism..
    Again, magic users and huge monsters are much more rare in the lore. Most battles are fought between roughly human-sized people, and in those battles formations are a big advantage. It's not like elephants rendered formations obselete either, nor did cannons for hundreds of years. Different threats would require different formations and strategies of course, but it's pretty obvious that they would still use formations in warhammer. It's simply superior to not doing so in most scenarios.

    And knowing of the different threats in the world, they would develop the more effective strategies to fight certain foes, which in some cases would mean spreading out and abandoning formation. Normally they would use them though. And in a world with constant warfare, it's very obvious they would work to gain any advantage they could. And as the order races are generally physically weaker and in smaller numbers than the destruction forces, but better at learning and adapting, formations are a natural consequence.
  • davedave1124davedave1124 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 16,085

    @JetFuelDingo
    thinking of this?

    a warpmuskets you mean? no official unit about it as far i know

    but a unit of ratsketeers could be interesting

    This would be great.. but maybe as a RoR as it could replace Skaven Slaves as a stopping unit while handing out devastating volleys.. may be
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 33,826
    edited March 30
    Uagrim said:

    Uagrim said:

    Draxynnic said:

    If you mean something like a skaven equivalent to handgunner units...

    Skaven don't really do mass production of their technology. The game already exaggerates just how common Skryre weapons were compared to the tabletop: apart from Jezzails, they were usually deployed individually, and the army book makes a comment about how there are legends of how a particularly rich clan managed to deploy an entire unit of ratling guns (but doing so was never an option on the tabletop). Now, units were generally smaller on tabletop than in TWW, but translated into TWW, you'd probably have weapon teams (except, again, jezzails) being deployed in units of 3 at Large unit scales rather than ten times that. But, having so few weapon teams per unit would suck for slot efficiency, so they were beefed up for gameplay reasons.

    Why this is the case can probably be summed up as "Clan Skryre charges exorbitant prices", but I think there's also economic and cultural factors. The economic factor is that basically everything the Skaven have above basic combat equipment - Skryre magitech, most Moulder monsters, Eshin Weeping Blades, Pestilens plagues - requires Warpstone, making it a limiting resource for the skaven. It's probably more efficient for the available warpstone to go towards a handful of high-power machines rather than trying to equip regiments with handguns.

    While the cultural factor is... well, historically guns have been called "the great equaliser" for a reason. They provide a means for someone with otherwise limited means to kill someone much higher on the social chain than themselves. As a result, Warlords and Chieftains might prefer to hand out a handful of sniper rifles to trusted marksmen than to try to equip regiments of handgunners or riflerats. They might still get shot at occasionally, but it makes for a smaller pool of potential traitors to sift through when they do.

    There's actually no real reason why Skaven didn't come up with something like the Tercio style formation which would be perfect to combine their large numbers with their access to advanced ranged firepower.



    The only reason is that this would make Skaven play too similar to the Empire since the detachment system is already vaguely simulating the Tercio.
    Except you know general skaven discipline being absolutely worthless outside of stormvermine. They wont hold any formation for long not when they get shot by artillery or ranged units. Skaven aren't an army they are a horde of selfish pricks that always seek to rise up by killing everyone above them.
    In that case they'd never be able to pose much of a threat to any organized military ever. If their military was as disorganized as you claim it to be, they'd simply never get anything done outside of raids on unprotected assets.

    So of course that's just exaggeration since the Skaven actually are a major threat in the Warhammer world, so they must have a modicum of discipline and organization to allow the strategic use of armies with combined arms.
    They pose a threat mostly because they are so numerous and their carelessly pushing of technology, magic and biology to its limits. They aren't dangerous because they make highly disciplined armies that meet threats in open combat but exactly because they go after unprotected and weakened assets. In combat discipin they are more like the greenskins and beastmen lousy and with a surprising tendency to run quickly if things don't go their way.
    Nope, if they were nothing but a disorganized rabble they'd never be able to sustain any sort of military campaign. It's actually an in-universe flaw to underestimate both Skaven and Greenskins as just being thugs who come in big numbers. Skaven military warfare is actually fairly complicated thanks to how disparate their forces and assets are, so being able to successfully organize that into a competent fighting force, and that happens regularly enough to make a difference, means they can't be just a bunch of solipsistic cowards.


  • CaesarSahlertzCaesarSahlertz Registered Users Posts: 5,718

    Draxynnic said:

    If you mean something like a skaven equivalent to handgunner units...

    Skaven don't really do mass production of their technology. The game already exaggerates just how common Skryre weapons were compared to the tabletop: apart from Jezzails, they were usually deployed individually, and the army book makes a comment about how there are legends of how a particularly rich clan managed to deploy an entire unit of ratling guns (but doing so was never an option on the tabletop). Now, units were generally smaller on tabletop than in TWW, but translated into TWW, you'd probably have weapon teams (except, again, jezzails) being deployed in units of 3 at Large unit scales rather than ten times that. But, having so few weapon teams per unit would suck for slot efficiency, so they were beefed up for gameplay reasons.

    Why this is the case can probably be summed up as "Clan Skryre charges exorbitant prices", but I think there's also economic and cultural factors. The economic factor is that basically everything the Skaven have above basic combat equipment - Skryre magitech, most Moulder monsters, Eshin Weeping Blades, Pestilens plagues - requires Warpstone, making it a limiting resource for the skaven. It's probably more efficient for the available warpstone to go towards a handful of high-power machines rather than trying to equip regiments with handguns.

    While the cultural factor is... well, historically guns have been called "the great equaliser" for a reason. They provide a means for someone with otherwise limited means to kill someone much higher on the social chain than themselves. As a result, Warlords and Chieftains might prefer to hand out a handful of sniper rifles to trusted marksmen than to try to equip regiments of handgunners or riflerats. They might still get shot at occasionally, but it makes for a smaller pool of potential traitors to sift through when they do.

    There's actually no real reason why Skaven didn't come up with something like the Tercio style formation which would be perfect to combine their large numbers with their access to advanced ranged firepower.



    The only reason is that this would make Skaven play too similar to the Empire since the detachment system is already vaguely simulating the Tercio.
    In a world of magic and devastating magical explosions, there is absolutely no reason that any faction ever came up with formation warfare....
    Most battles in warhammer are still fought with large amounts of regular troops though. The amount of spellcasters and such in the lore was always a lot lower than on the TT or in other games. So of course they have formations, most races use them. Imperial detachments, dwarf shield walls, bretonnian lance formation, elven phalanxes etc.
    There are also other stuff than magic which would have led to a world without formation warfare. The fact that there are threats like Trolls, Giants, Ogres, Minotaurs, even Orcs and Beastmen, that are all so massively bigger, stronger and tougher than humans, would simply mean that you wouldn't pack troops together.. Though.. Ogres, Minotaurs and the others (if they had the mind for it) would probably have invented formation warfare, since such a formation would be almost literally impenetrable for any enemy of a smaller size than themselves.. So to revise my original point: There is no way that any human-sized or smaller people in the Warhammer world would have ever invented formation warfare..
    I don't know why you are saying that they "would not" have invented it, we know for a fact that they did invent it. There are countless examples of the different races employing formations in battle. And especially when faced with bigger and stronger opponents, formation are important. Spread out and fighting individually humans would stand little chance against bigger and stronger foes like gors or orcs, but in tight formation and with proper discipline they can support each other and beat the more powerful foes.

    Walls of spears and pikes would also work very well against big creatures like trolls and such, they can't block all the strikes at the same time and running into spears will have them impale themselves. If the smaller guys were spread out the big guys would just walk straight through them, run them down with their superior mass.
    The point is that they WOULDN'T have if we were looking at it realistically. There are simply too many threats that punish you for standing in tightly formed formations for it to ever become a relevant form of warfare. A single swipe of a Dragon's tail would obliterate half an army. A well placed fireball would incinierate a battleline center, leading to it crumble if a charge immediately followed. The point is that Warhammer is not a realistic world, so one shouldn't apply our world's logic to it. For this, it is important to understand the difference between realistic and realism..
    Again, magic users and huge monsters are much more rare in the lore. Most battles are fought between roughly human-sized people, and in those battles formations are a big advantage. It's not like elephants rendered formations obselete either, nor did cannons for hundreds of years. Different threats would require different formations and strategies of course, but it's pretty obvious that they would still use formations in warhammer. It's simply superior to not doing so in most scenarios.

    And knowing of the different threats in the world, they would develop the more effective strategies to fight certain foes, which in some cases would mean spreading out and abandoning formation. Normally they would use them though. And in a world with constant warfare, it's very obvious they would work to gain any advantage they could. And as the order races are generally physically weaker and in smaller numbers than the destruction forces, but better at learning and adapting, formations are a natural consequence.
    Actually elephants did showcase exactly why packed formations were a bad idea against a heavier foe... Which is why when Elephants charged, the formation broke up, spread out and let the elephants pass between them...... So if you then imagine that Elephants were a species of intellegent creatures, and that they also had opposable thumbs.... Then you can probably see, that humanity wouldn't stand a chance in warfare... Of course if pikes were more prevalent in the Warhammer world, then it might have been a different story.. The problem then of course would be, that a human with a pike is still obliterated by an Ogre with a pike...

    And we continued to use formation warfare for centuries after the introduction of artillery, because for the first few centuries after the introduction of artillery, said artillery wasn't actually being used against the formation of troops, since they werent effective weapons for that job. After we started to get more reliable and effective artillery, we did have a few centuries (two and a half maybe), where the conservative stupidity of humanity maintained their hold on the formation warfare. But once we got proper rifling that immediately disapepared.. Only to be replaced by the equally horrible trench-warfare.

    Also, magic users are actually quite common. Just not in the Empire. All Greenskin WAAGHS are sure to contain at least a few Shamans, Bray-Herds will have Bray-Shamans, Skaven got their seers and warlocks. Magic is actually quite common, to the level that it is widely accepted in all the cultures as a fact of life.

    SImply put: Realistically humanity would never even have gotten a chance to reach a point where formation warfare could be relevant, as all the other vastly physically superior intellegent species on the planet would have obliterated them long ago.
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