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How to make grimgor viable

BjornNorlinderBjornNorlinder Registered Users Posts: 843
edited April 2021 in Balancing Discussions
I have two suggestions to finally make grimgor good and expand GS' lord options. ATM, its mainly Grom with some Skarsnik seen here and there. Yeah Azhag and Wurrzag are still viable even tho they have seen their usage drop off a hill since grom's arrival.

But Grimgor even after his rework still sucks and remains a meme. He and the orc warboss are the only ones that leave you a big disadvantage for choosing them over the other and more viable lords.

So I propose one of two or both changes:

1) Add ability similar to language of da boyz or rabble rouse
- adds itp (to all)
- +melee stats in AOE range (to infantry only), preferably +3MA +1MD
- must be engaged in melee
- +2 ld

2) Add ability that makes Grimgor a charge and grind battery unit
When Grimgor is charging AND within a certain range of the targeted enemy unit (the condition), add:
- +6MA
- 20% charge bonus
- +3 LD
For 12 seconds
Map wide

(To all inf units only)

To prevent click and charge and spamming of this ability, it triggers whenever the condition is met and must be recharged in melee for a certain time before it can be reactivated automatically the next time. It works similar to Wurrzag but is instead melee focused to highlight Grimgor's fightiness and melee prowess for he and his waaagh.

Any thoughts?

The exact Bonuses granted arent the issue here. It should be up to CA and its testing team.
Post edited by BjornNorlinder on
«1

Comments

  • User_ClueUser_Clue Registered Users Posts: 1,569
    I don't get the charge ability. Is it something that goes off when he charges a unit, because if that's the case I don't think the MA and LD are relevant. You already get + LD when charging and and the MA seems weird because the charge bonus already adds that too. +6 is meaningless when he already has 140 on the charge (160 with your suggestion) and a -40 MD debuff in his pocket.
    "Daemons are abroad again, and the servants of the foul gods march south with the storm at their backs. But as the winds of magic stir, other powers rise to contest it.
    I have seen the Lady, my brothers. She came to me from the waters and told me of the trials to come. This is why I call you here, so that Her summons may be answered. I call Errantry, a crusade to strike at the heart of the new darkness"


    -- The Lionhearted
  • saweendrasaweendra Registered Users Posts: 17,625
    He needs to similar to Sigvald someone you need to deal with in melee eventually

    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc


  • BjornNorlinderBjornNorlinder Registered Users Posts: 843
    User_Clue said:

    I don't get the charge ability. Is it something that goes off when he charges a unit, because if that's the case I don't think the MA and LD are relevant. You already get + LD when charging and and the MA seems weird because the charge bonus already adds that too. +6 is meaningless when he already has 140 on the charge (160 with your suggestion) and a -40 MD debuff in his pocket.

    Oops my bad

    I edited the post. I meant to all inf units only

    Similar to warzzug's ability but by charging to activate and only to inf
  • BjornNorlinderBjornNorlinder Registered Users Posts: 843
    saweendra said:

    He needs to similar to Sigvald someone you need to deal with in melee eventually

    That won't do it imo. Chaos can grind forever. Greenskins can't. Grom will be on his own after his entire army routes
  • DaBoyzAreBackInTownDaBoyzAreBackInTown Registered Users Posts: 1,231
    Grimgor has a pretty great kit now, just severely lacks utility (especially because his slow/debuff only works on characters).

    All Grimgor needs is access to Rabble-Rouse. Alongside nerfs to Grom, it would instantly make him a viable pick while still retaining some exploitable weaknesses. And would make sense for the biggest baddest Black Orc to give ITP in the same way as the Black Orc Big Bosses.
  • The_real_FAUSTThe_real_FAUST Registered Users Posts: 1,767
    Grimgor is one of the more viable foot Lords.

    There's just no point in him when Grom is so cheap, overturned and over abilitied.


    All that will happen is Grimgor will keep getting buffs until Grom gets a nerf.

    If anything. Remove rabble rouse from blorc big boss and give to Grimgor.

    Then balance Grom.
  • BjornNorlinderBjornNorlinder Registered Users Posts: 843
    Grimgor in a great spot???

    Huh?? Say wut??

    He sucks and sees 0 usage.
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 7,031
    He doesn't really suck be he does see little use because grom is op and even skarsnik and shaman are not far behind. His main problem is that he doesn't add any new support functionality so it would make sense to move rabble from bobb to grimgor. That would immediately give him a niche when language is the boys gets its duration cut to 10-15s from 30s.
    Don't fear the knockdown. Control it. Embrace it. Love it! :smile:
  • BjornNorlinderBjornNorlinder Registered Users Posts: 843

    He doesn't really suck be he does see little use because grom is op and even skarsnik and shaman are not far behind. His main problem is that he doesn't add any new support functionality so it would make sense to move rabble from bobb to grimgor. That would immediately give him a niche when language is the boys gets its duration cut to 10-15s from 30s.

    Grimgor would still see 0 usage even without Grom Skarsnik. Azhag and Warzzug are much superior
  • DaBoyzAreBackInTownDaBoyzAreBackInTown Registered Users Posts: 1,231
    There is no way Rabble-rouse will be removed from BoBB, he is barely cost-effective even with it. Removing it would make him a neverpick without some form of compensatory buffs.

    Grom doesn't have much to do with it either, they fill entirely different niches in terms of what they do for GS. There is nothing in Grimgor's kit where if it were nerfed/removed then makes Grimgor a better value proposition. Let's say Language of the Boyz was removed entirely from Grom, how would that suddenly make Grimgor a better pick? He still has all the same limitations of a footlord as well as being far less survivable. There is nothing in Grimgor's kit that I look at and think "Why take this when I can take Grom instead?" like you might do when comparing the Orc Warboss to Azhag, I look at Grimgor and think "why take this at all compared to Grom/Skarsnik/Wurrzag/NGWB/Azhag?"

    There are a couple of routes that could be taken to make Grimgor viable (these are separate choices, pick 1):

    1. Give access to Rabble-Rouse: This would allow him to provide utility and make him a target that would need to be grappled with by the opponent instead of just playing the ignore/bog down in chaff game.
    2. Give him perfect vigour and an hp buff: This would make him weigh more in the balance of power and play a similar role to Sigvald in the late game. Also would make him less susceptible to chip damage but not sure if this would be the best route for overall gameplay.
    3. Make Blood-Forged Armour a cheaper ability with a lower cooldown not dependent on being in combat to recharge. This would improve his mobility a fair amount.

    I wouldn't be opposed to nerfing Grom first and then seeing where that leaves Grimgor in the meta as a conservative option, but I am highly doubtful Grimgor would emerge as a meaningful lord choice. For a melee footlord to be useful it needs to have some combination of:

    - Regeneration
    - AOE buff abilities
    - Range damage/debuff abilities (the more targets the better)
    - Unbreakable
    - Speed

    Of these, Grimgor has a ranged debuff that at most can target 3 units on the enemy army.
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 7,031
    Bobb can get the 100g nerf rolled back if he loses rabble to grimgor. He's not bad, just expensive.
    Don't fear the knockdown. Control it. Embrace it. Love it! :smile:
  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 9,579
    These ppl really make me laugh lol, hes a worse chariot than khazrak that costs $150 and ppl QQ about him, wouldnt be surprised if CA dont even wanna waste their precious time reading garbage
    https://imgur.com/a/Cj4b9
    Top #3 Leaderboard on Warhammer Totalwar.
  • BjornNorlinderBjornNorlinder Registered Users Posts: 843
    yst said:

    These ppl really make me laugh lol, hes a worse chariot than khazrak that costs $150 and ppl QQ about him, wouldnt be surprised if CA dont even wanna waste their precious time reading garbage

    Who is?
  • hanenhanen Registered Users Posts: 686
    yst said:

    These ppl really make me laugh lol, hes a worse chariot than khazrak that costs $150 and ppl QQ about him, wouldnt be surprised if CA dont even wanna waste their precious time reading garbage

    1. All GS lords have waagh included in their base cost, just like TK lords and ushabti summon.

    2. Khazrak is a great SE chariot. But thats also the only thing he has going for him.

    3. If Grom was in the BM roster my bet is that he would see more play than Khazrak.
  • RawSugarRawSugar Registered Users Posts: 1,642
    HOW TO MAKE GRIMGOR VIABLE Step 1:

    nerf Grom

    grimgor is fine. Grom isnt terribly overtuned but being able to bring a rush hero is a huge draw and boon for GS. Make Grom pay for that compability and grimgor will start seeing more use.
  • turrehundturrehund Registered Users Posts: 398
    Grimgor is fine if you compare him to other lords for the same cost (apart from Sigvald, but you know, that's Sigvald and he's ridiculously overtuned). He could maybe get Rabble-Rouse (and Grom should lose his ItP aura) to emphasize his Black Ork role.
  • UagrimUagrim Registered Users Posts: 1,993
    turrehund said:

    Grimgor is fine if you compare him to other lords for the same cost (apart from Sigvald, but you know, that's Sigvald and he's ridiculously overtuned). He could maybe get Rabble-Rouse (and Grom should lose his ItP aura) to emphasize his Black Ork role.

    Rabble rouser does exactly nothing to black orcs as they already have ItP.
  • AsamuAsamu Registered Users Posts: 1,400
    He is 'viable', just not the 'best' choice. Like anyone other than Sigvald for Chaos.

    The problem is that Grom is sort of OP right now, with regen and the 40% ward save item making him so durable, especially in longer matches.
    Skarsnik/Night Goblin warbosses have fungi to lock in priority targets with rampage, so have a better ability to reach out and affect things outside of melee.

    I think increasing movement speed would be the most reasonable change for any foot lords that currently need help, or giving abilities like stand your ground/etc... a range instead of being centered on the lord.
  • turrehundturrehund Registered Users Posts: 398
    Uagrim said:

    turrehund said:

    Grimgor is fine if you compare him to other lords for the same cost (apart from Sigvald, but you know, that's Sigvald and he's ridiculously overtuned). He could maybe get Rabble-Rouse (and Grom should lose his ItP aura) to emphasize his Black Ork role.

    Rabble rouser does exactly nothing to black orcs as they already have ItP.
    Grimgor is a Black Ork, and Black Orks have a rabble-rousing role.
  • saweendrasaweendra Registered Users Posts: 17,625
    RawSugar said:

    HOW TO MAKE GRIMGOR VIABLE Step 1:

    nerf Grom

    grimgor is fine. Grom isnt terribly overtuned but being able to bring a rush hero is a huge draw and boon for GS. Make Grom pay for that compability and grimgor will start seeing more use.

    Truth grimgor isn't bad but grom and skarsnik is better

    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc


  • mightygloinmightygloin Karaz-a-KarakRegistered Users Posts: 5,634
    edited April 2021
    Despite being some of the best foot duelists, no wonder he's still the worst GS lord. This game just doesn't like zero utility slow characters especially when you have such good internal competition in the roster. Give him to dwarfs and see how he starts to become popular :p

    It's a good idea to give one of BOBB's auras to him which has been said many times.

  • RawSugarRawSugar Registered Users Posts: 1,642
    well ideally a foot lord will earn his cost by being extra strong compared to more mobile lords, rather than make him less of a foot lord id double down on that identity if he needs buffs, which he might comparing him to archaeon and similar, maybe a little extra defense and leadership, +5 each or so. or charge defense.

    His buff items may be overcosted tho, they might be decent in terms of gold pr power but at some point youre concentrating so many points in 1 slow unit you should be getting more for your gold.
  • User_ClueUser_Clue Registered Users Posts: 1,569
    RawSugar said:

    well ideally a foot lord will earn his cost by being extra strong compared to more mobile lords, rather than make him less of a foot lord id double down on that identity if he needs buffs, which he might comparing him to archaeon and similar, maybe a little extra defense and leadership, +5 each or so. or charge defense.

    His buff items may be overcosted tho, they might be decent in terms of gold pr power but at some point youre concentrating so many points in 1 slow unit you should be getting more for your gold.

    Archaon is supposed to be a better fighter than Grimgor though. Grimgor does not need any more buffs to his already ludicrous melee ability. If he needs something to make it better than it should be in the form of support abilities or price cuts.
    "Daemons are abroad again, and the servants of the foul gods march south with the storm at their backs. But as the winds of magic stir, other powers rise to contest it.
    I have seen the Lady, my brothers. She came to me from the waters and told me of the trials to come. This is why I call you here, so that Her summons may be answered. I call Errantry, a crusade to strike at the heart of the new darkness"


    -- The Lionhearted
  • saweendrasaweendra Registered Users Posts: 17,625
    edited April 2021

    Despite being some of the best foot duelists, no wonder he's still the worst GS lord. This game just doesn't like zero utility slow characters especially when you have such good internal competition in the roster. Give him to dwarfs and see how he starts to become popular :p

    It's a good idea to give one of BOBB's auras to him which has been said many times.

    Falsh backs to that one slayer who wanted to sleep with goblin women.
    Any way have a like.

    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc


  • GreenColouredGreenColoured Registered Users Posts: 5,981
    Nerf Grom all you want. But no one will pick the noob trap Grimgor. There's still Skarsnik, Wurzag, Azhag, hell even the Great Goblin Shaman on his Araknarok.


    The problems never been Grom. It's Grimgor offering literally nothing to the army. He's a stat stick that's too slow to get to where he needs to use those stats
  • RawSugarRawSugar Registered Users Posts: 1,642

    Nerf Grom all you want. But no one will pick the noob trap Grimgor. There's still Skarsnik, Wurzag, Azhag, hell even the Great Goblin Shaman on his Araknarok.


    The problems never been Grom. It's Grimgor offering literally nothing to the army. He's a stat stick that's too slow to get to where he needs to use those stats

    so is sigvald. the issue if there is one isnt the type of lord but the stats. sigvald may be slightly OP but not much, footlords needs to be strong to be viable. grigor could use a slight buff but he's already pretty strong
  • DaBoyzAreBackInTownDaBoyzAreBackInTown Registered Users Posts: 1,231
    RawSugar said:

    Nerf Grom all you want. But no one will pick the noob trap Grimgor. There's still Skarsnik, Wurzag, Azhag, hell even the Great Goblin Shaman on his Araknarok.


    The problems never been Grom. It's Grimgor offering literally nothing to the army. He's a stat stick that's too slow to get to where he needs to use those stats

    so is sigvald. the issue if there is one isnt the type of lord but the stats. sigvald may be slightly OP but not much, footlords needs to be strong to be viable. grigor could use a slight buff but he's already pretty strong
    Grimgor is way too 1-dimensional to become a good pick even after Grom is nerfed. He just doesn't have the speed/mass to effectively use his stats, and two of his main abilities only work if your opponent chooses to bring a powerful melee lord/hero for him to fight. Sure he could in theory slow and kill enemy casters, but there are better and more versatile ways to do that in the GS roster. Picking him is just an expensive gamble that your opponent will offer you a lord/hero to fight and if they don't, then he won't come close to making his value back.

    If he won't get Rabble-Rouse, perfect vigour is likely the way to go. That would at least allow him to be a late game piece that does work against infantry like Sigvald.

  • BjornNorlinderBjornNorlinder Registered Users Posts: 843
    RawSugar said:

    Nerf Grom all you want. But no one will pick the noob trap Grimgor. There's still Skarsnik, Wurzag, Azhag, hell even the Great Goblin Shaman on his Araknarok.


    The problems never been Grom. It's Grimgor offering literally nothing to the army. He's a stat stick that's too slow to get to where he needs to use those stats

    so is sigvald. the issue if there is one isnt the type of lord but the stats. sigvald may be slightly OP but not much, footlords needs to be strong to be viable. grigor could use a slight buff but he's already pretty strong
    Sigvald fights with a very grindy faction in Chaos. Greenskins have low LD and cant grind for long. Grimgor will almost always be exposed when his army routes and hes got no utility. Hes useless as it comes and i am super relieved whenever someone picks him for wtvr reason over any other lord not named the warboss.
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