Welcome

Please register for Total War Access to use the forums. If you're an existing user, your forum details will be merged with Total War Access if you register with the same email or username. For more information please read our FAQ’s here.

Categories

[Missing Unit Types] Heavily Armoured Archer Cavalry

RazeAndBurnRazeAndBurn Registered Users Posts: 198
edited April 8 in General Discussion
Despite the fact that Warhammer Total War is so diverse in its' rosters due to fantasy nature there are still missing unit types of Human based forces.

Currently all of the Skirmish Cavalry in the game is relegated to fast Light Cavalry. This was not the case in previous Total War games. Back in Rome 1 we had Cataphract Archers and Clibinarii, in Medieval 2 we had Heavy Mongol Archer and Dvor Cavalry.

Here's a description from one of them: "[unit_name] are heavily armoured but slow horse archers that are almost impervious to attacks and can fight in close combat."


Key features:

- 1400-1700g price tag depending on the stats and abilities representing their elite nature.
- 100-110 armour representing full lamellar body armour and barding.
- 66 speed in line with heavily armoured barded cavalry.
- 35% shield as historically wielded by the Asian Heavy Cavalrymen. It also reinforces their role as anti-skirmish unit mitigating ranged damage they recieve.
- 140 range Composite Bow with regular Non-AP damage profile to be able to handle other ranged cavalry and not be kited.
- Fire on the move, 360 degree shooting for the same reason.
- Mace as melee weapon with AP damage profile. Historically in line with Heavy Mongolian Horsemen and Sipahis.
- Melee stats a step below Questing Knights level representing them as formidable elite heavy cavalry able to fight in prolonged combat.
- Low charge bonus around 35-40 points to distinguish them from Shock Cavalry.
*stats that are not listed for the concept like MA/MD can be any reasonable number you believe judge the concept.

Explanation:

Dual purpose is there to ensure there's a niche for the unit outside of skirmishing. The melee designation is flipped from cycle charging and pursuing fleeing enemies to prolonged melee combat as befitting a heavily armoured expensive unit. Melee stats are parked a tier below true Elite Heavy Cavalry like Cold One Dread Knights and Horned Ones to account for added versatility.

The big price tag forces the unit to be used for both purposes to make the most out of it. Ideally with an openning phase of counter-skirmishing enemy Horse or Foot Archers due to having high armour and missile block and enough speed to evade infantry. Later transitioning into a Heavy Cavalry role as ammo depletes or the skirmish role is fulfilled.


Who should get it:

It is speculated that lamellar barding on the horses appeared as a response to steppe horse archers by their sedentary adversaries: Parthians and Slavs for instance. The Composite Bow was also borrowed from the nomads as means of equalizing the ranged engagement.

Therefore most realistically it would be Cathay or Kislev because there's no Parthian antipod in Warhammer Fantasy. Both Cathay and Kislev have to deal with nomadic equestrian adversaries and while Kislevite version is a direct copy of Dvor Cavalry from Medieval 2, Cathay might need such a unit more considering its' constant confrontation against the Hobgoblin Khaganate who takes the stereotypised role of nomadic steppe people from real world.

Maybe both factions could have this unit type with the more elite version going to Kislev representing the elite force of Boyars and the weaker 1100-1300g one being the Imperial type unit outfitted en masse by the centralized government of Cathay.


Pictures for reference:









Edit: added info that the ranged attack shouldn't be AP since non of the bows shot from horse in the game are. Seems there's a confusion somehow.

Edit 2: specified that the power level should be below that of Questing Knights as they are regarded a high perfomance tier melee cavalry by the community.
Post edited by RazeAndBurn on
Tagged:
«13

Comments

  • roekkumroekkum Registered Users Posts: 319
    If Kislev get these kind of units then they will probably shoot up among my favourite factions.

    Heavy horse skirmishers are the troop type I love the most from the historical titles.

    I guess I have some unloreful hope that Kurgans will be included in WH3 and with the option for some Nurgle markings that make them slow moving and immortal nomads of doom.
  • saweendrasaweendra Registered Users Posts: 10,993
    Knights of the verdant feild is what you seek.

    Though i would prefer they use this arch type with southern realms than empire.
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc
  • MaelasMaelas Registered Users Posts: 1,470
    edited April 7
    Honestly, that's a niche Cathay or Kislev could fill
  • HeroofRome1HeroofRome1 Member Registered Users Posts: 1,620
    Empire have Knights of the Raven who fulfil this role. Could be a nifty ROR with pistols instead of bows as well.
    Team Rome, Team Byzantium, Team Dwarfs, Team Empire, Team Bretonnia Team Grim, Team elf slayers, Team Belegar.
  • Ingr8Ingr8 Registered Users Posts: 1,783
    I think it is the damage / armour piercing that is missing - a slower (due to heavier armour) cavalry archer is probably not that appealing.

    That said, I am not sure just how big this niche is considering that the Scourgerunner chariots are already fairly sturdy, fast moving AP ranged units.
    Dreaming of mighty Lumbria

  • MonerisMoneris Registered Users Posts: 56


    They are the best candidate in my mind, if we get a Lord pack with Elspeth Von Draken, they would fit theme as they are Knights of Morr, and Morr is closely tied to the Order of Death.
  • RazeAndBurnRazeAndBurn Registered Users Posts: 198
    Ingr8 said:

    I think it is the damage / armour piercing that is missing - a slower (due to heavier armour) cavalry archer is probably not that appealing.

    That said, I am not sure just how big this niche is considering that the Scourgerunner chariots are already fairly sturdy, fast moving AP ranged units.

    Those are proposed to newer factions. Not everyone gets Scourgerunner chariots...

    The idea is to counter skirmish as was historical the lighter cavalry that has light or no armor and harass infantry that can't respond. AP missiles would be too much of a stretch on a Heavy Cavalry.
  • ItharusItharus Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 11,205
    Hobgoblins would have these, although not Cataphract level. Not that cataphract archers really make much sense in the first place... speed is better for that sort of thing. Bows on cataphracts are just like... what they plink away with before the charge. Same as knights using hurlbats or pistols in Poland. Secondary weapons.
  • OdTengriOdTengri Registered Users Posts: 5,235
    Moneris said:



    They are the best candidate in my mind, if we get a Lord pack with Elspeth Von Draken, they would fit theme as they are Knights of Morr, and Morr is closely tied to the Order of Death.

    Your thinking of the Knights of the Raven more specifically.
  • Cryptic_FreezeCryptic_Freeze Registered Users Posts: 193
    yeeeeees....yeeees. Let the dicussion of the Knights of the Raven flow through you, and onto Reddit, and into CA's mind.
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 30,784
    edited April 7
    ABSOLUTELY NOT!

    No way a ranged unit with QK stats (QK are currently one of the most powerful cavalry units) should have 140 range and parthian shot+fire on the move, shields and 100+ armor. You can right forget about creating a broken BS unit like that.

    Historical heavy horsearchers fired volleys on the charge but then attacked with lances or spears in close combat, they were not utilised in the same harassment role as their lighter compatriots because the heavy armor lowered their mobility. Under no circumstances should such a unit be ever implemented in the way you are proposing.

  • PocmanPocman Registered Users Posts: 4,190
    This would have been awesome for Araby.
  • RazeAndBurnRazeAndBurn Registered Users Posts: 198

    ABSOLUTELY NOT!

    No way a ranged unit with QK stats (QK are currently one of the most powerful cavalry units) should have 140 range and parthian shot+fire on the move, shields and 100+ armor. You can right forget about creating a broken BS unit like that.

    Historical heavy horsearchers fired volleys on the charge but then attacked with lances or spears in close combat, they were not utilised in the same harassment role as their lighter compatriots because the heavy armor lowered their mobility. Under no circumstances should such a unit be ever implemented in the way you are proposing.

    What even at 1700g?

    Historically Mongolian Cavalrymen including the Heavy class carried multiple spare quivers into battle.
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 30,784
    edited April 7

    ABSOLUTELY NOT!

    No way a ranged unit with QK stats (QK are currently one of the most powerful cavalry units) should have 140 range and parthian shot+fire on the move, shields and 100+ armor. You can right forget about creating a broken BS unit like that.

    Historical heavy horsearchers fired volleys on the charge but then attacked with lances or spears in close combat, they were not utilised in the same harassment role as their lighter compatriots because the heavy armor lowered their mobility. Under no circumstances should such a unit be ever implemented in the way you are proposing.

    What even at 1700g?

    Historically Mongolian Cavalrymen including the Heavy class carried multiple spare quivers into battle.
    There's be no adequate price for such a unit.

    Hey, that unit you talk about already exists, it's called the goddamn Scourgerunner Chariot. Was obnoxiously OP when it was first implemented because it had the combination of stats and abilities you are proposing and it's still a very strong unit after nerfs, but even then, that were only ever three chariots to the unit. An entire heavy cavalry unit with harassment capabilities is completely out of the question, especially not with completely overblown stats as you are proposing.

    And it doesn't change what I said, heavily armored horse wasn't used in a mere harassment role.

  • Beef545Beef545 Registered Users Posts: 407
    @ShiroAmakusa75
    Scourgerunner chariots are OP because of how cheap they are and have 50 bonus versus large. Cold one chariots are better in every way, yet it's the last unit you would make a doomstack with.

    Anyway, I don't see how missile questing Knights would be op, as long as they had adequate price and unkeep. There are much more crazy things going around.

    Also, don't know what's the point of bringing up a history in a game that is a parody of it.
  • IokkoIokko Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 821
    Good post, OP! Very well put together. I expect Kislev to get this unit type but probably not as good in melee as is being speculated here.

    Stating opinions as if they're facts in your signature and adding "Change my mind" doesn't make them facts, change my mind.
  • MagicspookMagicspook Registered Users Posts: 641
    Heavily armored fire whilst moving armor-piercing cav with shields?

    Sounds OP as hell. Also where do the shields come from? Bit hard to carry one around when you have a bow in hand.
  • Wtfah114Wtfah114 Registered Users Posts: 258
    Per 8th edition rules empire outriders come with light armor but can be upgraded with bearded warhorse and heavy armor.
  • RazeAndBurnRazeAndBurn Registered Users Posts: 198

    Heavily armored fire whilst moving armor-piercing cav with shields?

    Sounds OP as hell. Also where do the shields come from? Bit hard to carry one around when you have a bow in hand.

    Look up the pictures.

    AP is only on melee which is constrained by low charge bonus.
  • TheWattmanTheWattman Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 488
    There should really be 3 Empire DLCs, one Cult of Ulric and a Wissenland update. After that, we should get the Knights of the Raven alongside Marius Leitdorf in an anti-Undead update with Templar Witch Hunter Lord and Order of the Sacred Scythe.

    If there was one race besides the Empire to get heavy archer cavalry, it would probably be Cathay, as they are basically getting an invented roster anyway. Kislev have light archers in the Ungols and heavy charge with the Lancers, but nothing heavy in the archer department.

    In a way its weird that Bretonnia doesn't have any archer knights.
  • Mogwai_ManMogwai_Man Registered Users Posts: 4,576
    I'd rather CA stick to the actual army rosters.
  • Ingr8Ingr8 Registered Users Posts: 1,783
    Wtfah114 said:

    Per 8th edition rules empire outriders come with light armor but can be upgraded with bearded warhorse and heavy armor.

    Gotta love a bearded horse


    Dreaming of mighty Lumbria

  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 30,784
    edited April 7

    Heavily armored fire whilst moving armor-piercing cav with shields?

    Sounds OP as hell. Also where do the shields come from? Bit hard to carry one around when you have a bow in hand.

    Look up the pictures.

    AP is only on melee which is constrained by low charge bonus.
    40 charge is in no way "low" charge bonus. QK have 41 charge and they're wildly considered to be OP, so a 140 range unit with Fire on the move and Parthian shot on top of those stats is out of the question. And why the hell should they have AP in melee at all?

    Ever thought of actually balancing that unit in some way? No, price-wise, a unit with that many advantages can not be reasonably priced. You have to add drawbacks.

  • RazeAndBurnRazeAndBurn Registered Users Posts: 198

    Heavily armored fire whilst moving armor-piercing cav with shields?

    Sounds OP as hell. Also where do the shields come from? Bit hard to carry one around when you have a bow in hand.

    Look up the pictures.

    AP is only on melee which is constrained by low charge bonus.
    40 charge is in no way "low" charge bonus. QK have 41 charge and they're wildly considered to be OP, so a 140 range unit with Fire on the move and Parthian shot on top of those stats is out of the question. And why the hell should they have AP in melee at all?

    Ever thought of actually balancing that unit in some way? No, price-wise, a unit with that many advantages can not be reasonably priced. You have to add drawbacks.
    1. Empire Knights have 48 charge bonus for 850g, Knights Errant have 54 for 700g, what's the issue? If anything I've placed them closer to Cold One Riders(32 for 850g but massive AP WS). Numbers are placeholders you can go with 35 CB.

    But you miss the point when I stressed the point of the proposed unit to not be on the level with Top Tier Heavy Melee Cav like Horned Ones or Dread Knights, did you?

    QK are wildly OP because of stationary 40MA and 48WS most of which is AP which allows them do mow down other cavalry and monsters with ease on top of infinite healing by Faye.

    And that other part where I do propose a weaker and cheaper version that wouldn't be on the level of QK at all...

    _____________________________________________

    2. Mace is there as per historical examples of Eastern Heavy Cavalry I mentioned. I am for one tired of european knights and would rather see Asian warfare and aestethics incorporated into Warhammer world especially that now we get an opportunity in Cathay and Kislev.

    _____________________________________________

    3. Can you explain how a skirmish part is out of question? It is the core of the proposal - this being an elite unit which combines both skirmish and heavy melee in one and pays for it with a higher price tag.

    If you want only melee then mashing together Cold One Riders, Empire Knights and Boar Boyz could produce an ultimate mace wielding 850g roadblock unit.

    But this isn't it. This is about how heavy lamellar armour and barding was used to outskirmish steppe nomads. You ain't catching stuff with 66 speed, you need to be able to keep up at least at shooting and outlast them. Historically this is how it was used by the cultures neighbouring nomads: Parthians, Turkic peoples and Slavs.


    PS: Can you for once lay down your hatred of ranged units? I am proposing this for Warhammer 3 and we do not know how mechanics will work there. Maybe ranged wouldn't be OP anymore.

    Besides it's an expensive elite unit that tanks your MP funds by a lot even at 1400g - price of Dragon Princes for a moment who are premier tier shock cavalry and have access to healing.

    As for SP - I do not care how is it balanced there. SP is full of cheese and doomstack - one more or one less makes no difference.
  • VandicusVandicus Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 218

    Heavily armored fire whilst moving armor-piercing cav with shields?

    Sounds OP as hell. Also where do the shields come from? Bit hard to carry one around when you have a bow in hand.

    Look up the pictures.

    AP is only on melee which is constrained by low charge bonus.
    40 charge is in no way "low" charge bonus. QK have 41 charge and they're wildly considered to be OP, so a 140 range unit with Fire on the move and Parthian shot on top of those stats is out of the question. And why the hell should they have AP in melee at all?

    Ever thought of actually balancing that unit in some way? No, price-wise, a unit with that many advantages can not be reasonably priced. You have to add drawbacks.
    Depends on the strength of the ranged attack and amount of ammunition. If you look at Dread knights(cost 1300), that's basically what he's asking for the stats of in regards to melee. 100 more gold for the abilitities of a mounted yeoman archer is too cheap, 400 or 500 might be about right(though the range he's suggesting is too high). Probably should be even more expensive in campaign though considering it'd be one of the most powerful units.
  • RazeAndBurnRazeAndBurn Registered Users Posts: 198
    Vandicus said:

    Heavily armored fire whilst moving armor-piercing cav with shields?

    Sounds OP as hell. Also where do the shields come from? Bit hard to carry one around when you have a bow in hand.

    Look up the pictures.

    AP is only on melee which is constrained by low charge bonus.
    40 charge is in no way "low" charge bonus. QK have 41 charge and they're wildly considered to be OP, so a 140 range unit with Fire on the move and Parthian shot on top of those stats is out of the question. And why the hell should they have AP in melee at all?

    Ever thought of actually balancing that unit in some way? No, price-wise, a unit with that many advantages can not be reasonably priced. You have to add drawbacks.
    Depends on the strength of the ranged attack and amount of ammunition. If you look at Dread knights(cost 1300), that's basically what he's asking for the stats of in regards to melee. 100 more gold for the abilitities of a mounted yeoman archer is too cheap, 400 or 500 might be about right(though the range he's suggesting is too high). Probably should be even more expensive in campaign though considering it'd be one of the most powerful units.
    I'm asking bellow Dread Knights. Therefore the suggested pricing 1100+400=1600 on the higher end. Mayhapse QK level was a wrong choice of words?

    140 range is necessary because of the low speed. Otherwise you'd be kited to hell by other ranged cavalry that has same range and fire on the move. I'd rather have them shoot farther than run around at Scourgerunner's 84 speed and be an imbalance. Besides historically elite horse archers used a composite bow.

    Ammunition reduction by 2-6 shots could be a welcome suggestion emphasizing a faster transition between the roles. Depending on the match up one might even disable fire at will and use them predominantly as AP Melee Cav and applying arrow fire manually - like against the Dawi.
  • VandicusVandicus Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 218
    With the armor and shield you suggested and QK melee stats otherwise, you basically have a Dread Knight.

    Mounted Yeoman have range 125. Dark Rider crossbows 115. Horsemasters 90. There are units with higher range as well but 125 or so isn't unreasonable. Presumably given how the rest of the unit functions they're not really supposed to be focusing on enemy skirmish cavalry anyways.

    An element of the cost would depend on whether they're supposed to be a staple unit or not for the faction. I could see 1600 to 1800 being reasonable currently but wh3 will probably see a balance shift that might leave melee cav in better shape. On the other hand they might nerf ranged a bit so who knows.
  • User_ClueUser_Clue Registered Users Posts: 314
    Questing knights stats plus significantly more armor and a shield on top of that is already probably worth 1400 points (hell CoDK cost 1300) And yes you are asking for CoDK stats. On top of that though you want to give them long bows with 15 more range than other human longbow cav?
    A strong range unit that most melee units couldn't afford to fight in melee. Sure that sounds great
  • saweendrasaweendra Registered Users Posts: 10,993
    User_Clue said:

    Questing knights stats plus significantly more armor and a shield on top of that is already probably worth 1400 points (hell CoDK cost 1300) And yes you are asking for CoDK stats. On top of that though you want to give them long bows with 15 more range than other human longbow cav?
    A strong range unit that most melee units couldn't afford to fight in melee. Sure that sounds great

    things i expect from a empire knight orders dlc
    kurt helborg

    grand masters

    some kind of foot knight
    ranged knights
    ranged knights with helberds
    imperial griffon knights
    imperial pegausus knights

    this is going to be realty some day , so all we can do is look the other way hope every thing will be balanced
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc
  • Domokun84Domokun84 Registered Users Posts: 24
    I'll do you one better, heavy cataphracts with AP magic xbows...omg
Sign In or Register to comment.