Disable Casting If The Mage Is Under Attack

TheShiroOfDalton

Simple, if the mage is shot at or attacked in melee, spellcasting is disabled and any casting attempt is cancelled with the WoM refunded, plus the spell goes on cooldown.

That's the easiest way to add counterplay to magic without introducing any new mechanics.

Hybrid casters can be exempt from this.

turrehund#8512

Being "shot at" seems too much, it will essentially mean that the opposing player will just buy some cheap skirmishers or an arty piece to constantly pepper at the mage so that you can easily shut down enemy magic for the entire battle.

Could add +miscast chance for non-hybrid mages when engaged in melee, though.

Lotus_Moon#2452

No

TheShiroOfDalton

turrehund said:

Being "shot at" seems too much, it will essentially mean that the opposing player will just buy some cheap skirmishers or an arty piece to constantly pepper at the mage so that you can easily shut down enemy magic for the entire battle.

Could add +miscast chance for non-hybrid mages when engaged in melee, though.

No, it has to include being "shot at". Wanna' know why? Because otherwise flying mounts would become even more dominant than they already are since many factions can't even attack them in melee in the air.

And yes, it would make using mages way more of a hassle and that's the entire point. Right now they're guaranteed to pay off and that has to end.

hanen

Bad idea.

I feel you are trying to remake the game into something that isnt warhammer.

hanen

I disagree with the premiss. Magic isnt overpowered in this game and dont need this change.

Just like all units and abilties arent equal, the same is true for spells.

Fix the outliers instead of trying to add unnecessary interactions.

TheShiroOfDalton

hanen said:

I disagree with the premiss. Magic isnt overpowered in this game and dont need this change.

Just like all units and abilties arent equal, the same is true for spells.

Fix the outliers instead of trying to add unnecessary interactions.

Magic is absolutely overpowered in this game and there's a very simple way to show it:

1.You are massively handicapped if you don't bring magic
2.There's only a few lores that are brought regularly
3.Of those lores, only a few spells are used regularly

That alone shows that something's terribly wrong with magic balance in this game, but that it goes this way is based on the fact that casters are near guaranteed to get any spell out they want and affect their target with it. If you can make any effect stick, you of course go overwhelmingly for the effects that pay off the best.

And this comes down to magic having close to no counterplay and that zoning mages out is near impossible. If the mage has started his casting attempt, barring bugs, the only way to stop the spell from coming out is to kill the mage before the cast time is over which is of course an occurence that cannot be caused reliably.

That's why something as simple as my suggestion would already improve the situation because getting a spell out and sticking it on a target would require more effort and spells getting cancelled and going on cooldown would encourage increasing the amount of spells being brought.

mightygloin

Magic in MP can be somewhat discussed, but sure as hell you'd be missing out if you didn't bring a caster and it's pretty safe to use as well which doesn't speak WH to me at all.

In SP there is not even a need to discuss this - it has been absolutely bonkers that becomes even more bonkers after buffstacking with hundreds of WoM and reduced spell costs etc. which is further exacerbated by the AI. Take Wurrzag for example, dude spams Foot of Gork for like 5 WoM? Resulting in super strategic battles.

eumaies

I could see meleee (and no exemption for hybrids) but not shooting.

hanen

1. Magic is a part of the game and its meant to be played with it. I see no problem with the fact that you handicap yourself by not picking a caster.

2-3. Most lores have at least some good spells. As I wrote before there are some outliers that needs to be looked at. Fireball range, burning head damage etc. But overall Im happy with how magic works.

My views are based on how magic works in MP. In SP magic is more powerful because of talents and items, but mainly because of the AI.

ThisIsREM

Jesus another of these exceptionally pointless "suggestions" that without a shadow of a doubt will never ever be implemented into the game.

Might just as well demand that the sky is recoloured into green instead of blue, equally ridiculous suggestion as the OP.

TheShiroOfDalton

hanen said:

1. Magic is a part of the game and its meant to be played with it. I see no problem with the fact that you handicap yourself by not picking a caster.

2-3. Most lores have at least some good spells. As I wrote before there are some outliers that needs to be looked at. Fireball range, burning head damage etc. But overall Im happy with how magic works.

My views are based on how magic works in MP. In SP magic is more powerful because of talents and items, but mainly because of the AI.

Then why can you even bring armies without casters? See, if that's the argument then there must be a mandatory mage slot. Of course, magic being "part of the game" means nothing. Lots of things are part of the game without being obligatory includes like magic. It also doesn't mean that magic as it is now is the most optimal way to implement it.

Second point, nope. It's not outliers, it's the fact that magic is inevitable in the current setup. Take the synergy between SEs and healing for example. Is it possible for the opposing player to contest an attempted heal on a damaged SE? No, not at all barring really exotic situations. If the player wants to heal his monster or characters, he's getting that heal near 100%. It's not interactive, it's completely detached from the rest of the battle and that's bad game design. Not any better than the bowling pin meta of the past which made SEMs non-interactive.

eumaies said:

I could see meleee (and no exemption for hybrids) but not shooting.

Then how would you counter flying mages? As I said, a lot of factions don't have the means to contest air with melee and something like Alarielle would become even more of an autopick with her broken kit.

NoSkill4U#6552

ShiroAmakusa75 said:

Hybrid casters can be exempt from this.

Then this concept is pointless

TheShiroOfDalton

TeNoSkill said:

ShiroAmakusa75 said:

Hybrid casters can be exempt from this.

Then this concept is pointless

It would be a reason to bring something like Loremasters over simple mages (or Eltharion over Pigeon Queen and Parrotman) and vampires (VCounts vampires that is) kinda' need to get their magic out to have their army work.

NoSkill4U#6552

ShiroAmakusa75 said:

TeNoSkill said:

ShiroAmakusa75 said:

Hybrid casters can be exempt from this.

Then this concept is pointless

It would be a reason to bring something like Loremasters over simple mages (or Eltharion over Pigeon Queen and Parrotman) and vampires (VCounts vampires that is) kinda' need to get their magic out to have their army work.

On the other hand thsi would make secondary/tertiary mages more important

User_Clue

ShiroAmakusa75 said:

hanen said:

I disagree with the premiss. Magic isnt overpowered in this game and dont need this change.

Just like all units and abilties arent equal, the same is true for spells.

Fix the outliers instead of trying to add unnecessary interactions.

Magic is absolutely overpowered in this game and there's a very simple way to show it:

1.You are massively handicapped if you don't bring magic
2.There's only a few lores that are brought regularly
3.Of those lores, only a few spells are used regularly

That alone shows that something's terribly wrong with magic balance in this game, but that it goes this way is based on the fact that casters are near guaranteed to get any spell out they want and affect their target with it. If you can make any effect stick, you of course go overwhelmingly for the effects that pay off the best.

And this comes down to magic having close to no counterplay and that zoning mages out is near impossible. If the mage has started his casting attempt, barring bugs, the only way to stop the spell from coming out is to kill the mage before the cast time is over which is of course an occurence that cannot be caused reliably.

That's why something as simple as my suggestion would already improve the situation because getting a spell out and sticking it on a target would require more effort and spells getting cancelled and going on cooldown would encourage increasing the amount of spells being brought.

Point 1 isn't inherently an issue. That might be by design. Magic was something that every army needed in TT. It's so important that not having it is considered enough of handicap for Dwarves to have army wide Magics resistance or dispel in the case of TT. Magic is an important mechanic in the game.

Your suggestion also doesn't really address the other 2 points. Making all magic a bit harder to use wont suddenly change the fact that some spells and lore are used more often. You not getting a spell off that you wanted isnt going to make you suddenly want to use your finite resources to cast another spell (especially because that one will probably fail too). You'll just wait out the cool down is anything.

Obviously this change would be pretty bad for Hybrids so you suggested maybe making them immune, but what constitutes a hybrid? Does a non hybrid become a hybrid if you put them on an expensive mount like Pecklis or a mage on a dragon? Wouldn't that just incentivize those types of casters even more and be even more punishing for factions that have no hybrid casters like Bretonnia and to some degree the Empire and tomb kings (depending on how you define them). What about some casters who also have abilities designed for combat like Kemmler, but isn't necessarily a hybrid.

Also, why single out magic. Some bound abilities perform just like spells and are just as important. Do those get the same treatment?

TheShiroOfDalton

User_Clue said:

Your suggestion also doesn't really address the other 2 points. Making all magic a bit harder to use wont suddenly change the fact that some spells and lore are used more often. You not getting a spell off that you wanted isnt going to make you suddenly want to use your finite resources to cast another spell (especially because that one will probably fail too). You'll just wait out the cool down is anything.

Yes, it would.

Again, can you realistically contest a heal attempt right now? No. If you could, would healing still be the near unanimous auto-include it is? Doubt it. And if the spell is cancelled and on cooldown but you didn't bring anything but that one spell, your mage'd dead weight for a minute or more.

TheShiroOfDalton

My argument is based on the fact that currently magic has very little interactivity and casting cannot be contested. I argue this state isn't ideal because it decreases the amount of choice and options in this game shown by the small selection of spells that's brought every match and that this small choice unduly effects the flow of any battle thanks to its lack of interactivity, which further reduces variety.

I would like the people who defend the current status quo to make a gameplay-based argument for why the current implementation of magic represents its most ideal state.

turrehund#8512

The main difference between TableTop and Total War is that Warhammer:TW gets rid of most RNG and tries to make the performance of units more predictable. As a result, magic is reliable and a must-bring to any non-Dwarf build. With the enormous variety in lores, casters and synergies I fail to see how this is in any way a detriment to game. Most casters are easily goonable, and those that aren't usually pay a hefty hybrid tax.

TheShiroOfDalton

turrehund said:

The main difference between TableTop and Total War is that Warhammer:TW gets rid of most RNG and tries to make the performance of units more predictable. As a result, magic is reliable and a must-bring to any non-Dwarf build. With the enormous variety in lores, casters and synergies I fail to see how this is in any way a detriment to game. Most casters are easily goonable, and those that aren't usually pay a hefty hybrid tax.

It's a detriment because it lowers variety and influences the flow of a battle to an extend that less tactics and strategies are worth to be considered. The complete uncontestability of magic also means, as I said, that out of over a hundred of spells only a handful are actually used regularly. Healing, netting, summoning and Burning Head/Penumbral Pendulum, that's what you'll see more often than not. Buffs and debuffs are more situational and stuff like vortex spells are nearly absent if they are not bound because...why bother with spells that have less of a chance of paying off when you can always have spells that are near guaranteed to do so?

I also disagree that casters are easily goonable. Most spells don't require LoS and have generous ranges, so the mage can be hidden behind other troops. The change to wind spell targeting made mage positioning even more trivial.

Noob_for_Life

You brought this up before and I can almost guarantee they would never implement something like this, they have only made magic easier to use by dropping minimum cast ranges in such. Why would they all of a sudden do a 180 just because you think magic shouldn’t be so dominant.

Cukie251

Man, it's going to be super fun taking my cannon on teclis and effectively removing him from the game.

NoSkill4U#6552

turrehund said:

The main difference between TableTop and Total War is that Warhammer:TW gets rid of most RNG and tries to make the performance of units more predictable. As a result, magic is reliable and a must-bring to any non-Dwarf build. With the enormous variety in lores, casters and synergies I fail to see how this is in any way a detriment to game. Most casters are easily goonable, and those that aren't usually pay a hefty hybrid tax.

Dedicated anti-magic would still be nice.

Magic is kinda heresy after all.

Cukie251

ShiroAmakusa75 said:

User_Clue said:

Your suggestion also doesn't really address the other 2 points. Making all magic a bit harder to use wont suddenly change the fact that some spells and lore are used more often. You not getting a spell off that you wanted isnt going to make you suddenly want to use your finite resources to cast another spell (especially because that one will probably fail too). You'll just wait out the cool down is anything.

Yes, it would.

Again, can you realistically contest a heal attempt right now? No. If you could, would healing still be the near unanimous auto-include it is? Doubt it. And if the spell is cancelled and on cooldown but you didn't bring anything but that one spell, your mage'd dead weight for a minute or more.

Actually your proposal just makes healing more dominant, because healing is one of the few lores that works entirely on your own terms - I.E. you can just fly your dragon behind your lines and heal it.

Forumaccountkroqgar

Doesn't this already happen in melee? Or maybe it's only when the attacker has bigger mass than the caster? But I've certainly had mages casting being interrupted by an enemy attack, without them being knocked out.

NoSkill4U#6552

yukontherun said:

Doesn't this already happen in melee? Or maybe it's only when the attacker has bigger mass than the caster? But I've certainly had mages casting being interrupted by an enemy attack, without them being knocked out.

Only when the casting animation is interrupted. This is currently only possible by knocking the mage over.

If you made "in melee" interrupting factor then it would also interrupt.

TheShiroOfDalton

Noob_for_Life said:

You brought this up before and I can almost guarantee they would never implement something like this, they have only made magic easier to use by dropping minimum cast ranges in such. Why would they all of a sudden do a 180 just because you think magic shouldn’t be so dominant.

Making magic more simplistic has obviously not benefitted the game, so why shouldn't they reverse a negative trend?

Also, whenever people make this bold statement that something I suggest will never happen, I can't help it but feel that there's quite a bit of dread that CA might actually do it after all.

Cukie251 said:

ShiroAmakusa75 said:

User_Clue said:

Your suggestion also doesn't really address the other 2 points. Making all magic a bit harder to use wont suddenly change the fact that some spells and lore are used more often. You not getting a spell off that you wanted isnt going to make you suddenly want to use your finite resources to cast another spell (especially because that one will probably fail too). You'll just wait out the cool down is anything.

Yes, it would.

Again, can you realistically contest a heal attempt right now? No. If you could, would healing still be the near unanimous auto-include it is? Doubt it. And if the spell is cancelled and on cooldown but you didn't bring anything but that one spell, your mage'd dead weight for a minute or more.

Actually your proposal just makes healing more dominant, because healing is one of the few lores that works entirely on your own terms - I.E. you can just fly your dragon behind your lines and heal it.

Disagree, because if harassing the enemy mage stopped spellcasting, you'd now actually have an incentive to keep pressure on the mage, something that right now is simply not worth doing as casting is uncontestable. You'd have to make heal attempt much further away from the action and with more safeguards. That'd already be a major plus in my book as it would require players to approach these things with more thought.

Cukie251 said:

Man, it's going to be super fun taking my cannon on teclis and effectively removing him from the game.

But Teclis netting your troops and hitting them with a Fiery Convocation with no way of avoiding it is better? Also, if the other guy lets you shoot Teclis continously...of course such bad play should be punished.

Cukie251

But, objectively right, keeping a mage safe behind your own lines to cast spells is easier than rolling up to their lines to cast spells right?

So explain to me exactly how casting a burning head isnt riskier than a regrowth.

And..... How is teclis supposed to avoid being shot at by an artillery piece that can hit half of the map at any given time? Hide in a forest all game? That has nothing to do with good play.

And yeah, it is better. Because first off, you can play with a brain and checkerboard your lines, mitigating a huge amount of potential damage. Second, it uses WoM, a finite resource, and a 2 use bound ability.

turrehund#8512

Also, do you realize that by implementing this you would make it almost mandatory for every faction apart from VC to bring artillery if they can and always missile units in order to counter magic?

Ironically, by wanting to reduce "mandatory" elements in an army list, this change would narrow viable builds even more.

another505

Ya, its going to be a huge nerf to VC since ALL your lords are spellcasters and almost all of them want to get in there to melee, No thank you.

TheShiroOfDalton

Cukie251 said:

But, objectively right, keeping a mage safe behind your own lines to cast spells is easier than rolling up to their lines to cast spells right?

So explain to me exactly how casting a burning head isnt riskier than a regrowth.

And..... How is teclis supposed to avoid being shot at by an artillery piece that can hit half of the map at any given time? Hide in a forest all game? That has nothing to do with good play.

And yeah, it is better. Because first off, you can play with a brain and checkerboard your lines, mitigating a huge amount of potential damage. Second, it uses WoM, a finite resource, and a 2 use bound ability.

Artillery has plenty of counterplay and that's demonstrated nearly every time it's brought, so sorry, don't see the point behind this at all. If you are offended that artillery might actually have a shot at preventing spells from being cast, sorry again, don't see why mages should have free rein.

turrehund said:

Also, do you realize that by implementing this you would make it almost mandatory for every faction apart from VC to bring artillery if they can and always missile units in order to counter magic?

Ironically, by wanting to reduce "mandatory" elements in an army list, this change would narrow viable builds even more.

That's flat wrong because, one, artillery has plenty of exploitable weaknesses itself and two, the only artillery pieces that would actually be suitable for this purpose are already meant to deal with SEs anyway, so you wouldn't deal with them any differently than you do now.

another505 said:

Ya, its going to be a huge nerf to VC since ALL your lords are spellcasters and almost all of them want to get in there to melee, No thank you.

Read the OP to the end.