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About ranged units from Cathay

VictuzVictuz Sao Paulo, BrazilRegistered Users Posts: 414
For example, do you well-versed people know if something like this will be a thing in Cathay?

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  • davedave1124davedave1124 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 19,515
    They may have ornate hand cannons.. possible. Not sure they will look like fantasy ashigeru though.
  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Registered Users Posts: 35,510
    Rockets? Probably / hopefully not. That's too high tech for Cathay.
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  • VictuzVictuz Sao Paulo, BrazilRegistered Users Posts: 414
    edited April 2021

    They may have ornate hand cannons.. possible. Not sure they will look like fantasy ashigeru though.

    Agree about the uniform, it's more of a Nippon thing.

    Rockets? Probably / hopefully not. That's too high tech for Cathay.

    Well, it was China who invented the gunpowder in real life, and since Warhammer Fantasy is a copy of Earth, proto-cannons would make sense for Cathay.





  • WyvaxWyvax Registered Users Posts: 5,693
    Fire lances seem like a very fluffy and logical addition to Cathay.
    Tomes read: The Great Betrayal, Master of Dragons, Curse of the Phoenix Crown, Trollslayer, Skavenslayer, Daemonslayer, Dragonslayer, Beastslayer, Vampireslayer, Malekith, The Bloody Handed, Shadow King
    Me when I see a LL character implemented as a LH.

    Warhammer Deserves Naval Battles

  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Registered Users Posts: 35,510
    Metal ball in tube is fine, but pretty darn boring compared to what they could have.

    The picture you show in the OP is a rocket with a bomb, something that's pretty high tech. I wouldn't mind if Cathay had low tech rockets in the form of gunpowder propelled arrows and the like, but an actual rocket? No.
    "There's no fun in picking on the weak. If you must, go for the mountain high, the language most foreign, target the strong." - Kenny Florian

    #JusticeForCathay

    "I like small words" - Winsy C

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  • EmeraldThanatosEmeraldThanatos Registered Users Posts: 2,910
    edited April 2021
    I hope Cathay will be the Empire mixed with a bit of Tomb Kings. Epic constructs, combined with decent infantry and cavalry, and absolutely banging Artillery and Gunpowder..
    Ranking of all Total War games I've played:
    1. Three kingdoms
    2. Attila
    3. Warhammer (1, 2 & 3)
    4. Medieval 2
    5. Shogun 2
    6. Thrones
    7. Rome 2
    8. Napoleon
    9. Empire


  • VictuzVictuz Sao Paulo, BrazilRegistered Users Posts: 414

    Metal ball in tube is fine, but pretty darn boring compared to what they could have.

    The picture you show in the OP is a rocket with a bomb, something that's pretty high tech. I wouldn't mind if Cathay had low tech rockets in the form of gunpowder propelled arrows and the like, but an actual rocket? No.

    Yeah, I know they must be different in order to stand out as a race. The question is how to nail that without messing things up, when it concerns to fans criticisms.

    About the second comment, that's why I said something similar to that, not exactly that.
  • davedave1124davedave1124 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 19,515
    The Empire rocket artillery is based on cathayan tech so it’s possible I guess.
  • General_HijaltiGeneral_Hijalti Registered Users Posts: 4,960

    The Empire rocket artillery is based on cathayan tech so it’s possible I guess.

    No it came from an idea an engineer had when watching Cathay fireworks.
    Not really bases on their tech.
  • davedave1124davedave1124 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 19,515

    The Empire rocket artillery is based on cathayan tech so it’s possible I guess.

    No it came from an idea an engineer had when watching Cathay fireworks.
    Not really bases on their tech.
    After watching the spectacular fireworks of a Cathayan emissary to Altdorf, Master Engineer Herman Faulkstein was inspired to transform this eastern technology into a weapon.

    It’s still based on Cathayan tech, as it states in the lore.
  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Registered Users Posts: 35,510
    Victuz said:

    Metal ball in tube is fine, but pretty darn boring compared to what they could have.

    The picture you show in the OP is a rocket with a bomb, something that's pretty high tech. I wouldn't mind if Cathay had low tech rockets in the form of gunpowder propelled arrows and the like, but an actual rocket? No.

    Yeah, I know they must be different in order to stand out as a race. The question is how to nail that without messing things up, when it concerns to fans criticisms.

    About the second comment, that's why I said something similar to that, not exactly that.
    Yeah, I've been thinking about this a fair bit recently.

    I'd go with pre metal ball in metal tube era. Take inspiration from that stuff, Warhammer it up a bit.
    "There's no fun in picking on the weak. If you must, go for the mountain high, the language most foreign, target the strong." - Kenny Florian

    #JusticeForCathay

    "I like small words" - Winsy C

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  • mecanojavi99mecanojavi99 EspañaRegistered Users Posts: 8,607
    The little we know about ranged weapons in Cathay is that they have gunpowder weapons and artillery to some extent.

    Most likely they will also have the iconic repeating crossbow, ancient China was pretty innovative with Crossbows so GW can easily add various crossbow variants.




    "By the fires of Hashut, let them burn in the flames of eternal torment!"
    - Anonymous
  • SakuraHeinzSakuraHeinz Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 3,232
    there will definetly be firelances!




    they will be the metal ones of course.
  • LordTorquemadoLordTorquemado Registered Users Posts: 2,042

    The little we know about ranged weapons in Cathay is that they have gunpowder weapons and artillery to some extent.

    Most likely they will also have the iconic repeating crossbow, ancient China was pretty innovative with Crossbows so GW can easily add various crossbow variants.




    Exactly. The mythic Chu Ko Nu. In Warhammer it was invented by the Dwarfs working together with the naggarothi during the period of Malekith traveling around the Old World. In those times, humans weren’t even the same human race of now, according to Malekith novel.
    However, this could be a misinterpretation of both elves and dwarfs, because it doesn’t seem too possible that the human race that created Khemri and Cathay evolved only in two or three millennia from a different human race to build those vast empires in a few generations. Our example in real world makes a good example of how we only created the first “civilizations” after some tons of millennia after becoming the current species. But it’s true that dwarfs in Warhammer aided humanity in the first steps, so it could be possible.
    So, although in Warhammer Chu Ko Nu wasn’t invented by Cathay, I wouldn’t mind if Cathay got those, in a worse version than those from Naggaroth.

    About the gunpowder, it was discovered by Cathayans before than Dwarfs. According to the Timeline in Dwarfs: Stone and Steel (Hogshead Publiching - WHFRP), these are the following dates:
    In the year 2580 (-420 I.C.) the capital of Karaz-a-Karak is shaken by explosions as Dwarf engineers and alchemists have discovered gunpowder. Dwarfs start making cannons and handguns afterwards.
    Gunpowder and cannons find their way into the Imperial arsenals in 4991, or 1991 in the I.C.

    http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=6395.0

    The 70th year of Tahoth the Wise (-1650 IC) - After a hundred years of war with the Priest Kings, Nagash flees north. His works are destroyed, except for those that are saved by Neferatem of Lahmia under the influence of High Priest W’soran.
    https://warhammerfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Lahmia

    In this defeat, Khemri counted with a secret weapon which consisted in gunpowder weapons, from you guess where... Cathay.

    So, it seems Cathay has counted with gunpowder for more than 1200 years before the dwarfs used it. Take into consideration also the fact that dwarfs are much more conservative with their experimentation and progress, as you can see in how the Empire has already become a potency with better engineering than Karaz Ankor’s.

    I don’t expect to see steam tanks for Cathay, but taking this into consideration I wouldn’t be surprised or disturbed if I saw Cathay with better rifles and gunpowder weapons than those from the Empire. They could bring repeater rifles like those of Nuln, based in the idea of repeater crossbows that made famous the Chinese armies in real life.

    In conclusion, I don’t expect or want to see Cathay with too much power and becoming a jack of all trades, but certainly they can take repeater crossbows from their irl counterpart, and they have been manipulating and using gunpowder weapons for more than 1200 years before Dwarfs (3500 Empire) discovered these potential weapons... so they must have a powerful arsenal based on gunpowder.
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 11,023
    The flip side is that Cathayan artillery still seems to be in the early gunpowder age in Tamurkhan. Javelin-firing cannons was something that was abandoned fairly early on historically. So it does seem that while Cathay discovered gunpowder early on, they've proven even more conservative with it than Dwarfs.
  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Registered Users Posts: 35,510
    edited April 2021
    Thing is Empire and Dwarfs heavily occupy the gunpowder area. And a gun is a gun. I'd sooner Cathay be at the stage where they made those early pre cannon and pre gun weapons but for whatever reason the development never reached ball in tube stage.

    Dark Elves and Cathay should both have repeater crossbows but they shouldn't compete. Make Cathay's weaker, shorter range and faster, or some big difference/s so you could legitimately argue the DEs are better.

    Also I am 100% stealing some of this for a Cathay artillery thread I'm writing tomorrow.
    "There's no fun in picking on the weak. If you must, go for the mountain high, the language most foreign, target the strong." - Kenny Florian

    #JusticeForCathay

    "I like small words" - Winsy C

    Forum Terms & Conditions

    I am The Beast, Son of Guanyin, The one who beasts 25 hours a day, 8 days a week, The Vanilla Gorilla, Conqueror of Mountains, purveyor of wisdom, Official forum historian, Master Tamer of energy, the one they fear to name, Beastradamus, The Teacher, Master Unbiased Pollster, The Avatar of Tuesday, Chief hype Train Conductor

  • talonntalonn Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,458
    edited April 2021
    Meh.. OP crossbow > OP arty/gunpowder
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 11,023

    Thing is Empire and Dwarfs heavily occupy the gunpowder area. And a gun is a gun. I'd sooner Cathay be at the stage where they made those early pre cannon and pre gun weapons but for whatever reason the development never reached ball in tube stage.

    Dark Elves and Cathay should both have repeater crossbows but they shouldn't compete. Make Cathay's weaker, shorter range and faster, or some big difference/s so you could legitimately argue the DEs are better.

    Also I am 100% stealing some of this for a Cathay artillery thread I'm writing tomorrow.

    Historical repeating crossbows were actually pretty weak against armour, and sometimes relied on poison to have any stopping power at all. I raised a massive eyebrow when Games Workshop made DE repreater crossbows AP as a result - I think they were thinking "it's a crossbow so it must be good at penetrating armour". Some of the early fluff implied that the bolts were also poisoned, although it was never reflected in the rules specifically - but at the time, 'poison' just increased the strength of the hit, so that could have been interpreted as the bolts actually striking at Strength 2 but having poison bump them up to Strength 3.

    Since they DID make them AP weapons, though, the Cathayan equivalent being weak against armour would give them a strong distinguishing factor.
  • united84united84 Registered Users Posts: 1,114

    Rockets? Probably / hopefully not. That's too high tech for Cathay.

    Although Empire got their gunpowder tech from the dwarf but the helstorm battery was an inspiration from Cathay tech.
    Historically, the Chinese already had rockets before the Europeans. So, it is quite reasonable for Cathay infantry to wield rockets.
  • ItharusItharus Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 14,643

    Rockets? Probably / hopefully not. That's too high tech for Cathay.

    They do in fact have crude rockets. Hobgoblins stole the designs :-P (old minis)

    But that picture looked like something that'd fly out of a rocket propelled grenade launcher -- so no -- not that kind of rocket, lol.
  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Registered Users Posts: 35,510
    Itharus said:

    Rockets? Probably / hopefully not. That's too high tech for Cathay.

    They do in fact have crude rockets. Hobgoblins stole the designs :-P (old minis)

    But that picture looked like something that'd fly out of a rocket propelled grenade launcher -- so no -- not that kind of rocket, lol.
    Yeah that's what I mean. Don't know the terms because I'm an ape.
    united84 said:

    Rockets? Probably / hopefully not. That's too high tech for Cathay.

    Although Empire got their gunpowder tech from the dwarf but the helstorm battery was an inspiration from Cathay tech.
    Historically, the Chinese already had rockets before the Europeans. So, it is quite reasonable for Cathay infantry to wield rockets.
    Thing is.... I don't think that's important. The question for me is what is the best, most unique weapon set. In terms of guns vs crazy pre gun tech it's pretty obvious. Especially given the two (three with CD) races that already heavily use guns.
    "There's no fun in picking on the weak. If you must, go for the mountain high, the language most foreign, target the strong." - Kenny Florian

    #JusticeForCathay

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  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 11,023
    Rocket artillery, like grenades, actually has an interesting history. They were used in the early gunpowder days, only to be superseded by the conventional ball-in-tube style of gunpowder weapons which were more efficient. They then came back in recent centuries as improvements in technology and changes in tactics made them viable again.
  • VictuzVictuz Sao Paulo, BrazilRegistered Users Posts: 414
    edited April 2021
    Draxynnic said:

    Rocket artillery, like grenades, actually has an interesting history. They were used in the early gunpowder days, only to be superseded by the conventional ball-in-tube style of gunpowder weapons which were more efficient. They then came back in recent centuries as improvements in technology and changes in tactics made them viable again.

    Imagine how hilarious it would be if some exotic Cathay unit send actual fireworks (very loud ones) into the enemy lines and then a colorful detonation happens.

    I'd laugh so hard you wouldn't believe it. It'd be absolutely fantastic.
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 11,023
    Victuz said:

    Draxynnic said:

    Rocket artillery, like grenades, actually has an interesting history. They were used in the early gunpowder days, only to be superseded by the conventional ball-in-tube style of gunpowder weapons which were more efficient. They then came back in recent centuries as improvements in technology and changes in tactics made them viable again.

    Imagine how hilarious it would be if some exotic Cathay unit send actual fireworks (very loud ones) into the enemy lines and then a colorful detonation happens.

    I'd laugh so hard you wouldn't believe it. It'd be absolutely fantastic.
    Canon, actually. The battle at the Tower of Ashshair talks about enchanted fireworks. It's ambiguous as to whether they were being fired into the enemy ranks as a direct damage weapon or whether they were primarily used for illumination and psychological warfare, but magical fireworks are definitely a thing in the Cathayan arsenal.
  • Eliak_The_Rat_MercEliak_The_Rat_Merc Registered Users Posts: 702
    Personally I want cathay to have arquebuses.
  • ItharusItharus Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 14,643
    Victuz said:

    Draxynnic said:

    Rocket artillery, like grenades, actually has an interesting history. They were used in the early gunpowder days, only to be superseded by the conventional ball-in-tube style of gunpowder weapons which were more efficient. They then came back in recent centuries as improvements in technology and changes in tactics made them viable again.

    Imagine how hilarious it would be if some exotic Cathay unit send actual fireworks (very loud ones) into the enemy lines and then a colorful detonation happens.

    I'd laugh so hard you wouldn't believe it. It'd be absolutely fantastic.
    That's not really funny at all actually, it's injured, maimed, and killed a lot of folk here over the last year (riots). Some of those fireworks make a pretty big bang.
  • peabodyestatepeabodyestate Registered Users Posts: 1,531
    edited April 2021
    I had it in mind that Cathay would be lore of metal, with some earthy terracotta stuff in. Admittedly i have no idea of the lore, but from what everyone says i appear to be completely wrong.

    I get the feeling they will have some cool niche mechanics, i mean why not? Blank canvas, CA - go wild.
  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Registered Users Posts: 35,510
    Yeah @Draxynnic I'd agree on both those counts. Make repeater crossbows low AP and focus on rockets for the artillery. Rocket propelled wood and rudimentary bombs of various kinds.

    Rocket Bows would be cool too. And there's the possibility of weapons teams type units.
    "There's no fun in picking on the weak. If you must, go for the mountain high, the language most foreign, target the strong." - Kenny Florian

    #JusticeForCathay

    "I like small words" - Winsy C

    Forum Terms & Conditions

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  • YannirYannir Registered Users Posts: 2,026
    edited April 2021

    Metal ball in tube is fine, but pretty darn boring compared to what they could have.

    The picture you show in the OP is a rocket with a bomb, something that's pretty high tech. I wouldn't mind if Cathay had low tech rockets in the form of gunpowder propelled arrows and the like, but an actual rocket? No.

    Rockets are just a directed, slow explosion. Depending if you're referring to a V2-rocket or a firecracker. It's not that "high tech" as long as you understand a bit of physics and material science.
    Ugh, I have spoken.
  • mecanojavi99mecanojavi99 EspañaRegistered Users Posts: 8,607

    Yeah @Draxynnic I'd agree on both those counts. Make repeater crossbows low AP and focus on rockets for the artillery. Rocket propelled wood and rudimentary bombs of various kinds.

    Rocket Bows would be cool too. And there's the possibility of weapons teams type units.

    It wouldn't surprise me if Cathay had Firelance and Handcanons Weapon teams, simply because GW has already toyed with that idea in AOS with the Fireslayers.








    "By the fires of Hashut, let them burn in the flames of eternal torment!"
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