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About ranged units from Cathay

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  • Man2008kindMan2008kind Bucharest, RomaniaRegistered Users Posts: 1,854
    No, Cathay defently won't have RPGs as in the picture.
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 10,990

    I had it in mind that Cathay would be lore of metal, with some earthy terracotta stuff in. Admittedly i have no idea of the lore, but from what everyone says i appear to be completely wrong.

    I get the feeling they will have some cool niche mechanics, i mean why not? Blank canvas, CA - go wild.

    We've got a few sources on them having particular skill with the Lore of Heavens, and possibly some skill with the Lore of Shadows (although the latter might not be as officially sanctioned). The other core lores are open to interpretation, though.
  • Emo PantherEmo Panther Registered Users Posts: 34
    As far as Realworld equivalents go, China did invent gunpowder during like.. the 9th century thereabouts, and they made the first guns/cannons in the 10th century. But the ones who basically made gunpowder weapons as we knew them in, say the 1700-1800 was Europeans and Arabs.. Iirc, there's a record somewhere from some Chinese merchant or something that espouses the superiority of Arab made rifles in comparison to the ones used by the Chinese or the Europeans.

    So as far as that, I think it'd make some sense to have the Empire have more advanced applications of gunpowder as opposed to Cathay. The repeating crossbow sounds like a good idea, but I wouldn't think they'd have repeating rifles. That is 'if' they're going by realworld examples.
  • Naygir_KillazNaygir_Killaz Registered Users Posts: 1,550
    edited April 2021
    Cathay will probably have rocket launchers in similar fashion to the korean hwacha, but it won't be very effective in terms of killing but the resulting noise and flashing lights from the fireworks would be a massive morale shock to enemies, so that way, it will be effective in inflicting routs and dispersing blobs.

    If we go by 3K implementations of the repeating crossbow, then they are trash, as they should be. There's a reason they were never used as main stay weapons and more as an urban defensive tool meant for suppressing and warding off raiders. Their actual killing potential against well equipped armies was nill.

  • General_HijaltiGeneral_Hijalti Registered Users Posts: 4,916

    The Empire rocket artillery is based on cathayan tech so it’s possible I guess.

    No it came from an idea an engineer had when watching Cathay fireworks.
    Not really bases on their tech.
    After watching the spectacular fireworks of a Cathayan emissary to Altdorf, Master Engineer Herman Faulkstein was inspired to transform this eastern technology into a weapon.

    It’s still based on Cathayan tech, as it states in the lore.
    Fireworks, as in normal fireworks.

    Doesn't mean Cathay have rocket launchers
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 10,990

    The Empire rocket artillery is based on cathayan tech so it’s possible I guess.

    No it came from an idea an engineer had when watching Cathay fireworks.
    Not really bases on their tech.
    After watching the spectacular fireworks of a Cathayan emissary to Altdorf, Master Engineer Herman Faulkstein was inspired to transform this eastern technology into a weapon.

    It’s still based on Cathayan tech, as it states in the lore.
    Fireworks, as in normal fireworks.

    Doesn't mean Cathay have rocket launchers
    Sure, but it's not that much of a step to go from "rocket goes into air and goes bang" and "rocket goes into enemy and goes bang". There seems to be firm evidence of rockets being used as weapons as early as 1250 or so, although there is some confusion due to them being called 'fire arrows' just like arrows with gunpowder explosives attached.
  • DraculasaurusDraculasaurus Registered Users Posts: 4,771
    My general assumption is Cathay will have a fairly strict division in its range capabilities, with infantry largely being limited to crossbows and gunpowder begin reserved for artillery units.

    Still, it wouldn't shock me if they get some sort of Ushabti Greatbows/Deck Gunners unit that is sort of halfway between normal ranged units and artillery. That might take the form of rockets, kind of like Trollhamer Torpedoes but with longer range, or it might take the form of light ballistae weapon teams, kind of like these:


  • davedave1124davedave1124 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 19,259

    The Empire rocket artillery is based on cathayan tech so it’s possible I guess.

    No it came from an idea an engineer had when watching Cathay fireworks.
    Not really bases on their tech.
    After watching the spectacular fireworks of a Cathayan emissary to Altdorf, Master Engineer Herman Faulkstein was inspired to transform this eastern technology into a weapon.

    It’s still based on Cathayan tech, as it states in the lore.
    Fireworks, as in normal fireworks.

    Doesn't mean Cathay have rocket launchers
    It does actually, a rocket is a subsystem of a firework and we know that Cathay uses exploding fireworks against enemies.

    We don't know what the roster of Cathay will be, but if they have hand held enhanced rockets I don't think anyone will be shocked.
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 10,990
    While it's pretty down there in the layers of canon, the Nagash novels did have Cathay exporting "dragon-staves" to Nehekhara, which were definitely some sort of gunpowder hand weapon. It is unclear, though, whether they're 'proper' handguns or something like a firelance.

    All things considered, though, having Cathay represent the 'early experiments with gunpowder weapons' era could be pretty cool. Most settings, including 8E Warhammer, tend to either have no gunpowder at all (despite often otherwise being at a late medieval tech level that historically coincided with gunpowder), or have the gunpowder weapons already pushing into the early modern era. There's some wacky stuff from back then that could definitely get Warhammered up a bit.
  • DraculasaurusDraculasaurus Registered Users Posts: 4,771
    One thing's for sure, Cathay will probably have a lot of access to fire damage. Leave your regenerating monsters at home.
  • KrunchKrunch Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 5,275
    I think Ming Arquebusiers have a certain Aesthetic to them that I appreciate. IMO they would not be out of place, especially since technologically the Ming is from the same era as what the HRE is based on(the 1500's)


  • DraculasaurusDraculasaurus Registered Users Posts: 4,771
    Krunch said:

    I think Ming Arquebusiers have a certain Aesthetic to them that I appreciate. IMO they would not be out of place, especially since technologically the Ming is from the same era as what the HRE is based on(the 1500's)


    Something like that seems plausible, but I strongly suspect they'll try to differentiate Cathayan ranged units from Empire ranged units; not necessarily by making them less advanced, but by giving them different roles.
  • Naygir_KillazNaygir_Killaz Registered Users Posts: 1,550

    Krunch said:

    I think Ming Arquebusiers have a certain Aesthetic to them that I appreciate. IMO they would not be out of place, especially since technologically the Ming is from the same era as what the HRE is based on(the 1500's)


    Something like that seems plausible, but I strongly suspect they'll try to differentiate Cathayan ranged units from Empire ranged units; not necessarily by making them less advanced, but by giving them different roles.
    Eh, I wouldn't think too hard about that. The game already has a lot of units that share counterpart niches from other factions.
    This isn't WH1 anymore where factions are outright deprived of particular unit roles.
    Although I can chalk that up to WH2 getting nearly 10x the amount of content that WH1 had.
  • Naygir_KillazNaygir_Killaz Registered Users Posts: 1,550

    My general assumption is Cathay will have a fairly strict division in its range capabilities, with infantry largely being limited to crossbows and gunpowder begin reserved for artillery units.

    Still, it wouldn't shock me if they get some sort of Ushabti Greatbows/Deck Gunners unit that is sort of halfway between normal ranged units and artillery. That might take the form of rockets, kind of like Trollhamer Torpedoes but with longer range, or it might take the form of light ballistae weapon teams, kind of like these:


    Please I want Cathay to be at least on the same level of Empire technology wise. It would be awful if Cathay is 3K 2.0 all over again. I'm sick of the restrictions in that game.
    Give me some guns and cannons. Crossbow spam in 3K was horrid and boring.
  • KrunchKrunch Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 5,275
    maccabbee said:

    My general assumption is Cathay will have a fairly strict division in its range capabilities, with infantry largely being limited to crossbows and gunpowder begin reserved for artillery units.

    Still, it wouldn't shock me if they get some sort of Ushabti Greatbows/Deck Gunners unit that is sort of halfway between normal ranged units and artillery. That might take the form of rockets, kind of like Trollhamer Torpedoes but with longer range, or it might take the form of light ballistae weapon teams, kind of like these:


    Please I want Cathay to be at least on the same level of Empire technology wise. It would be awful if Cathay is 3K 2.0 all over again. I'm sick of the restrictions in that game.
    Give me some guns and cannons. Crossbow spam in 3K was horrid and boring.
    This. People seem to think Cathay will or should be just 3K in Warhammer, as if chinese history and weapons were not constantly evolving just as much as in europe. It would be like people expecting them to just port Rome 2 models into Warhammer for Tilea, it's a different time period that the country is based on.
  • MikobotMikobot Registered Users Posts: 301

    Krunch said:

    I think Ming Arquebusiers have a certain Aesthetic to them that I appreciate. IMO they would not be out of place, especially since technologically the Ming is from the same era as what the HRE is based on(the 1500's)


    Something like that seems plausible, but I strongly suspect they'll try to differentiate Cathayan ranged units from Empire ranged units; not necessarily by making them less advanced, but by giving them different roles.
    imo different roles is a better direction than less advanced. Firelances and specing more into rocket based weaponry will probably be a good way to do it.

    Might take some Empire/Dwarf gunpowder themed DLCs to really deepen the divide in how they utilize their technology though.
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 10,990
    Krunch said:

    maccabbee said:

    My general assumption is Cathay will have a fairly strict division in its range capabilities, with infantry largely being limited to crossbows and gunpowder begin reserved for artillery units.

    Still, it wouldn't shock me if they get some sort of Ushabti Greatbows/Deck Gunners unit that is sort of halfway between normal ranged units and artillery. That might take the form of rockets, kind of like Trollhamer Torpedoes but with longer range, or it might take the form of light ballistae weapon teams, kind of like these:


    Please I want Cathay to be at least on the same level of Empire technology wise. It would be awful if Cathay is 3K 2.0 all over again. I'm sick of the restrictions in that game.
    Give me some guns and cannons. Crossbow spam in 3K was horrid and boring.
    This. People seem to think Cathay will or should be just 3K in Warhammer, as if chinese history and weapons were not constantly evolving just as much as in europe. It would be like people expecting them to just port Rome 2 models into Warhammer for Tilea, it's a different time period that the country is based on.
    I don't think anyone is realistically suggesting 3K level as suitable for Cathay. We know Cathay has gunpowder weapons. It's just a question of what type.

    We also know that Cathay has constructs and the odd fantastical creature. This means that they can't really be a match for the Empire technologically, because then they'll basically have nearly everything the Empire has while also having a lot of stuff the Empire doesn't. Just how far that goes is open to interpretation, but I'm pretty sure it'll stop well short of Steam Tanks. The Empire should still be the most technologically advanced human nation, while Cathay has other things that the Empire doesn't.
  • davedave1124davedave1124 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 19,259
    I believe China were using rockets way back in the 1200s against the Mongols so it would be reasonable for Cathay to have something similar.

    Even if they don't specifically have hand cannons or hand held rockets, I'm pretty sure they are going to get some good stuff.
  • DraculasaurusDraculasaurus Registered Users Posts: 4,771
    Draxynnic said:

    Krunch said:

    maccabbee said:

    My general assumption is Cathay will have a fairly strict division in its range capabilities, with infantry largely being limited to crossbows and gunpowder begin reserved for artillery units.

    Still, it wouldn't shock me if they get some sort of Ushabti Greatbows/Deck Gunners unit that is sort of halfway between normal ranged units and artillery. That might take the form of rockets, kind of like Trollhamer Torpedoes but with longer range, or it might take the form of light ballistae weapon teams, kind of like these:


    Please I want Cathay to be at least on the same level of Empire technology wise. It would be awful if Cathay is 3K 2.0 all over again. I'm sick of the restrictions in that game.
    Give me some guns and cannons. Crossbow spam in 3K was horrid and boring.
    This. People seem to think Cathay will or should be just 3K in Warhammer, as if chinese history and weapons were not constantly evolving just as much as in europe. It would be like people expecting them to just port Rome 2 models into Warhammer for Tilea, it's a different time period that the country is based on.
    I don't think anyone is realistically suggesting 3K level as suitable for Cathay. We know Cathay has gunpowder weapons. It's just a question of what type.

    We also know that Cathay has constructs and the odd fantastical creature. This means that they can't really be a match for the Empire technologically, because then they'll basically have nearly everything the Empire has while also having a lot of stuff the Empire doesn't. Just how far that goes is open to interpretation, but I'm pretty sure it'll stop well short of Steam Tanks. The Empire should still be the most technologically advanced human nation, while Cathay has other things that the Empire doesn't.
    Cathay is also advanced relative to other human nations like Kislev, Bretonnia, Tilea, Araby, and Estalia, all of whom have fewer and less sophisticated gunpowder weapons than the Empire does.

    The Empire is uniquely advanced among human races because of their close relationship with the Dwarfs.
  • VictuzVictuz Sao Paulo, BrazilRegistered Users Posts: 413
    maccabbee said:

    Cathay will probably have rocket launchers in similar fashion to the korean hwacha, but it won't be very effective in terms of killing but the resulting noise and flashing lights from the fireworks would be a massive morale shock to enemies, so that way, it will be effective in inflicting routs and dispersing blobs.

    If we go by 3K implementations of the repeating crossbow, then they are trash, as they should be. There's a reason they were never used as main stay weapons and more as an urban defensive tool meant for suppressing and warding off raiders. Their actual killing potential against well equipped armies was nill.

    Yeah I also think fireworks would work like that. Specially for Warhammer races which aren't used to extremely artificial loud noises and flashbangs.
  • VictuzVictuz Sao Paulo, BrazilRegistered Users Posts: 413
    maccabbee said:

    Krunch said:

    I think Ming Arquebusiers have a certain Aesthetic to them that I appreciate. IMO they would not be out of place, especially since technologically the Ming is from the same era as what the HRE is based on(the 1500's)


    Something like that seems plausible, but I strongly suspect they'll try to differentiate Cathayan ranged units from Empire ranged units; not necessarily by making them less advanced, but by giving them different roles.
    Eh, I wouldn't think too hard about that. The game already has a lot of units that share counterpart niches from other factions.
    This isn't WH1 anymore where factions are outright deprived of particular unit roles.
    Although I can chalk that up to WH2 getting nearly 10x the amount of content that WH1 had.
    Amen to that.
  • AbmongAbmong Registered Users Posts: 3,606
    Yannir said:

    Metal ball in tube is fine, but pretty darn boring compared to what they could have.

    The picture you show in the OP is a rocket with a bomb, something that's pretty high tech. I wouldn't mind if Cathay had low tech rockets in the form of gunpowder propelled arrows and the like, but an actual rocket? No.

    Rockets are just a directed, slow explosion. Depending if you're referring to a V2-rocket or a firecracker. It's not that "high tech" as long as you understand a bit of physics and material science.
    This, for me it comes down to what that "Rocket" will look like. Lots of factions in WH have primitive rockets, Empire, Nippon, Dwarf, Skaven. Primitive or ornate gilded looking or even steampunk rockets, Yes, Just wouldn't suit any faction to have sci-fi looking rockets.
    Something tells me this comment will get a Disagree
  • Naygir_KillazNaygir_Killaz Registered Users Posts: 1,550
    And that's just chemical rockets. Other factions have magical rockets in various colors. Others even have orbital laser beams.
  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Registered Users Posts: 34,661

    Yeah @Draxynnic I'd agree on both those counts. Make repeater crossbows low AP and focus on rockets for the artillery. Rocket propelled wood and rudimentary bombs of various kinds.

    Rocket Bows would be cool too. And there's the possibility of weapons teams type units.

    It wouldn't surprise me if Cathay had Firelance and Handcanons Weapon teams, simply because GW has already toyed with that idea in AOS with the Fireslayers.








    Wholly agree. Firelance is one of the things I'm going to include in my own thread. Not super keen on the gun at the end. Lance with fire at the end though? That's the vibes.
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  • MythrilSoulMythrilSoul Registered Users Posts: 944
    crazy gunpowder weapons? maybe the ming thunder-barrel guns / Xun Lei Chong?

    it for sure looks different from the empire guns

  • KrunchKrunch Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 5,275

    crazy gunpowder weapons? maybe the ming thunder-barrel guns / Xun Lei Chong?

    it for sure looks different from the empire guns

    Ehhhhhhhhhhhhh that's probably a bit too ridiculous.

    Yeah @Draxynnic I'd agree on both those counts. Make repeater crossbows low AP and focus on rockets for the artillery. Rocket propelled wood and rudimentary bombs of various kinds.

    Rocket Bows would be cool too. And there's the possibility of weapons teams type units.

    It wouldn't surprise me if Cathay had Firelance and Handcanons Weapon teams, simply because GW has already toyed with that idea in AOS with the Fireslayers.








    Wholly agree. Firelance is one of the things I'm going to include in my own thread. Not super keen on the gun at the end. Lance with fire at the end though? That's the vibes.
    Firelances as far as we know generally had a bit of metal at the end so when they fired they indeed had a projectile, on top of the gout of black powder flame that would shoot out of course.

    Anyway, for a look at potential weapons for china, the Great Ming Military Blog has this neat article on rockets used by the Ming Military.

    https://greatmingmilitary.blogspot.com/2015/09/rocket-weaponry-of-ming-dynasty-p1.html
  • AbmongAbmong Registered Users Posts: 3,606
    Krunch said:


    Ehhhhhhhhhhhhh that's probably a bit too ridiculous.

    Why would it be too ridiculous? It's a real medieval Chinese weapon. Warhammer seems to reflect that period when the Middle Kingdom was a lot more advanced technologically than the West, before the later part of the Age of Sail when the European industrial revolution overtook older Chinese innovations.

    Only reason it would be ridiculous is if there's an arbitrary want for Cathay to not be as technologically advanced as the Old World...
    Something tells me this comment will get a Disagree
  • KrunchKrunch Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 5,275
    edited April 2021
    Abmong said:

    Krunch said:


    Ehhhhhhhhhhhhh that's probably a bit too ridiculous.

    Why would it be too ridiculous? It's a real medieval Chinese weapon. Warhammer seems to reflect that period when the Middle Kingdom was a lot more advanced technologically than the West, before the later part of the Age of Sail when the European industrial revolution overtook older Chinese innovations.

    Only reason it would be ridiculous is if there's an arbitrary want for Cathay to not be as technologically advanced as the Old World...
    Hold on now, there's no need to accuse anyone of anything. I don't see how me finding that weapon strange is saying I somehow have some agenda here.

    I just thought it was a silly concept and assumed it wasn't an actual thing. Apparently it was indeed an actual armament.



    To be honest, I still have my doubts on whether it was actually used in any large numbers in battle(the simple Rifle you see alongside it would probably be a lot more effective and efficient), but it did exist as a weapon at least, which is enough for Warhammer.


    EDIT: Talking about the whole "Gun that inserts through a shield that rests on a small axe with a spear on the end" here, obviously the multiple barrel gun is quite attested too.
  • IchonIchon Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 5,695
    edited April 2021

    As far as Realworld equivalents go, China did invent gunpowder during like.. the 9th century thereabouts, and they made the first guns/cannons in the 10th century. But the ones who basically made gunpowder weapons as we knew them in, say the 1700-1800 was Europeans and Arabs.. Iirc, there's a record somewhere from some Chinese merchant or something that espouses the superiority of Arab made rifles in comparison to the ones used by the Chinese or the Europeans.

    So as far as that, I think it'd make some sense to have the Empire have more advanced applications of gunpowder as opposed to Cathay. The repeating crossbow sounds like a good idea, but I wouldn't think they'd have repeating rifles. That is 'if' they're going by realworld examples.

    Probably GW and CA would be wise to simply sidestep the whole "Cathay or Empire has superior weapons' by making Cathayan weapons a combination of the same with handgunners and a Cathayan version of the Helstrom which is maybe a bit weaker but has a wider cone but also some unique units that Empire does not have.

    I fully expect Kislev to get a couple of unique gunpowder units so it would be rather... wrong- if Cathay lacked some unique gunpowder units.

    Firelance could be made fairly unique- a medium hitting single AP projectile (10 AP damage) followed by a few seconds of non-AP flames so the unit CAN whittle down high armour units but not as well as a unit like Handgunners but it can also burn through low armoured swarms, albeit a lot slower than Warp Throwers. Probably more like Poison Globadiers with slightly higher units size, less range, but somewhat tanky compared to most human ranged units.

    Cathay could also get Zha Pao version of mines as a special ability similar to what Dwarf miners have but with a delayed but stronger explosion when a unit runs over the mines but only 2-3 ammo to not be too OP and a long reload time simulating burying the mines.

    Quicklime cannons might be a thing as well- cannons that shoot a canister of quick lime which has only 120 range but the quick lime causes temporary blindness and fear for 10 seconds. Basically for each 'hit' the unit affected, if it is ranged has some models unable to use their ranged weapons for 10 seconds and 'blind' lowers MA and MD by 20% for 10 seconds. The cannon would be slow firing so not able to totally silence a ranged unit but make the targeted unit 50% as effective if the cannon had a 16 second reload time. VS melee infantry it could target cavalry but be barely useful other than the 'fear' effect as a 16 second reload and -20% MA/MD for cavalry not in melee is nearly useless.
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  • AbmongAbmong Registered Users Posts: 3,606
    Krunch said:


    Hold on now, there's no need to accuse anyone of anything. I don't see how me finding that weapon strange is saying I somehow have some agenda here.

    I just thought it was a silly concept and assumed it wasn't an actual thing. Apparently it was indeed an actual armament.

    To be honest, I still have my doubts on whether it was actually used in any large numbers in battle(the simple Rifle you see alongside it would probably be a lot more effective and efficient), but it did exist as a weapon at least, which is enough for Warhammer.

    EDIT: Talking about the whole "Gun that inserts through a shield that rests on a small axe with a spear on the end" here, obviously the multiple barrel gun is quite attested too.

    Wasn't accusing, if you didn't know, you didn't know.

    There have been others who have mentioned Cathay shouldn't be as advanced with gunpowder as the Empire. No particular reason given. Which I find odd since even in WH lore Cathay had gunpowder long before the Empire. They were selling Dragon Staves to Lahmia 1500 years before Sigmar was even born...

    It's a common lore misconception that the Dwarfs were the first to discover/invent gunpowder. It's true Dwarfs were the first in the Old World to master it, but that happened around -420 IC in an accident, but as told in the Nagash books, Cathay was already selling blackpowder weapons as early as -1500 IC. Tileans were actually the first humans in the Old World to master blackpowder through their trade with Cathay. The Empire only learned about gunpower from the Dwarfs, and that happened later since the Dwarfs were secretive about their gunpowder. Maybe Dwarf gunpowder is more potent than Cathayan gunpowder, we don't know, it's never been compared. We also don't know were the Chaos Dwarfs and Skaven got their gunpowder (if they didn't indepently discover it) probably also from Cathay considering proximity.
    Something tells me this comment will get a Disagree
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