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Meta discussion #1 - Bracing, charging and counter-charging cavalry

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  • AWizard_LizardAWizard_Lizard Registered Users Posts: 1,746
    yst said:

    Nah def no +hp to cav. Unless u planning to increase dmg of leech

    Leech is broken against cav. Certainly against the expensive cav.
    Prettiest of the foot overlords.
  • RawSugarRawSugar Registered Users Posts: 1,642
    Green0 said:

    RawSugar said:

    I think your suggestions go too far though, full charge defense to cavalry would make the interaction much too onesided, almost back to the old days, and they'd be almost as disadvantaged if braced.
    full charge defense to braced infantry vs cavalry, and 50% charge defense to charging cavalry would be semibalanced though, then you have cavalry being advantaged vs charging infantry and disadvantaged vs braced, that seems fair-ish altho cavalry would have all the initiative.

    A much easier and less intrusive is just to change infantry CB though. atm spear have CB about 33% of MA, shield have 50% and GW have 67%. its a nice progression but you could change them all to 33% and convert the CB to MA (at 2:1 ratio), i dont think that would mess up too much but it would do much to swing the counterchargeinteraction in cavalry's favor

    back in old days, well-micro'd cavalry would still enter late game with something like 20% HP residual, furthermore all cavalry units drop models being multi-entity. I thought this is the dynamic gameplay that people advocated for, unless the "units that drop models need to be more viable" applies only to infantry and not to other unit types also.

    It is known though that certain members of this forum have a big preference for spamming 1 unit type and that type happens to be infantry.
    For some its defo cavalry. Im just trying to balance the game and that means slow melee gets something in return for being slow, not that they are also vulnerable to fast melee.
    the old days werent balanced, not the endgame anyway. units shouldnt be invulnerable in melee thanks to a bug. I'm open to rebalancing the games in other ways though, cavalry getting charge defense vs infantry when charging and infantry getting a 10% pricebuff fe. But a flat bonus to cavalry vs infantry, with no compensation to infantry? no.
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 7,031
    I would be strongly against buffing cav stats because that just promote cav blobs and sustained fighting which is not how shock cav should work.

    They should live and die by their charge bonus, because that is what they are. Making shock cav play more like grail would be wrong and result in fast mobile blob play.... They just need to work the way they used to because 45 model cav has never been broken in wh2.

    Even with a charge defense vs small for charging cav, things like halberds would still overperform on their 0 cb, bvl charge...

    I think it just has to be fixed at the level it was broken. If it was a result of the stag fix then it's not related to infantry mass or cohesion really, but to something else forcing hits to register. If so, it needs to be addressed there....
    Don't fear the knockdown. Control it. Embrace it. Love it! :smile:
  • ArtagnanArtagnan Registered Users Posts: 46
    hum, i did think that my bretonnian knights weren't doing as well as i'd thought, but i just figured it was because i'm not very good at micro'ing them.
  • AuroraOuraniaAuroraOurania Registered Users Posts: 21

    OP doesn't make any effort to explain why frontally charging a full hp 60+ speed unit into a full hp 20+ speed unit should necessarily result in a better trade for the much quicker unit (this is just taken as a given based on former performance in an explicitly bugged game)

    OK, if we're going to try to give reasoning as to why, historically, it was very rare for infantry to withstand a single charge, even by light cavalry. Look at the battle of Zama as an example. Also, that 60+ speed cavalry has far, far more mass (like actual mass, horses are heavy as ****), and mass matters a ton in collisions. Plus, the cavalry, in most cases, are armed with lances, which means that they'd hit great weapon infantry and knock them down (and kill them) well before the infantry could hit them.

    The reason cycle charging wasn't a thing in real life wasn't that it was too dangerous, it was because something surviving a charge, that wasn't braced and wielding polearms, was extremely rare. A charge should do like 15% damage, take a small number of casualties, and then instantly route any infantry other than the highest leadership Dwarf and Elf units.

    But that wouldn't be fun to play against, so we don't base the balance on reality, we base in on what's fun, and having your 1400 gold heavy shock cavalry take more damage on the charge than 800 gold anti infantry infantry is utter nonsense, and promotes a playstyle that isn't fun for most people to play or watch.
  • SwordOfJustice2007SwordOfJustice2007 Registered Users Posts: 1
    Looks like unintended consequences of actions done by developers to fix other issues. I feel it's terrible for my gameplay experience.

    This video explains more:
  • RawSugarRawSugar Registered Users Posts: 1,642
    Green0 said:

    RawSugar said:


    For some its defo cavalry. Im just trying to balance the game and that means slow melee gets something in return for being slow, not that they are also vulnerable to fast melee.

    what they get, and they ALWAYS got even in past patches for being slow was

    a) being incredibly cheap (or conversely, getting insane stats for the price, depending on how you wanna see it)

    b) having insane # of models and HP (infantry is the unit type that gets the highest HP in the game, cost-wise).

    I don't know what more you need from infantry? Maybe, it's time that infantry lovers accept that other units deserve to be viable also and infantry shouldn't counter every unit type and be a 1-size-fits-all kinda deal where it's good vs infantry, good vs cavalry, good vs monsters because "yay infantry".
    RawSugar said:


    the old days werent balanced, not the endgame anyway. units shouldnt be invulnerable in melee thanks to a bug. I'm open to rebalancing the games in other ways though, cavalry getting charge defense vs infantry when charging and infantry getting a 10% pricebuff fe. But a flat bonus to cavalry vs infantry, with no compensation to infantry? no.

    how are the "old days" different from what we had now? In the old days, you would have cavalry cycle charging down infantry, which was reaping the rewards from the opponent failing to counter the cavalry in the early stages of the game.

    Now, we have systematically 2 big blobs of infantry fighting each other, grinding down everything, monsters, characters and so on without counterplay.

    It is a mirror situation from before, only now cavalry got replaced by infantry so apparently it's fine even though now infantry is invulnerable to all other unit types (except infantry) in the endgame thanks to a bug.

    To acknowledge that current state of game is fine when the "cavalry meta" wasn't is patently being biased and OK with spamming infantry but not cavalry, and all unit types should be equal, not one of them superior.
    I want infantry to perform as their stats say they will, not for cavalry to get some magical mechanic or ability that allows them to roflstomp infantry despite what their stat say.

    The counter to infantry is not and should not be cavalry. the counter to infantry is primarily ranged (+infantry), especially skirmish ranged. Infantry is incredibly vulnerable to skirmish and ranged, and even units like chariots and magic. Cavalry is a melee unit that has traded about 25% damage and hitpoint to get 2-3 times as much move which removes, even reverses, their vulnerability to those units. OF COURSE that means they should lose to slow melee all else being equal. Usually all else isnt equal though and cavalry can use its mobility to pick off infantry units by ganging up on them, and because they are much less vulnerable to ranged and magic you can go more elite versions of cavalry, which means you will often be fighting chaff with heavy armor. a unit of heavy armored knights charging chaff will obliterate them with next to no damage, hell they can even take them of in a sustained fight. Thats balance, the balance the stats dictate and it works. your fantasy of infantry dominated meta has no connection to reality, its only semitrue if you go by number of units in which case yes, because infantry is so weak vs ranged ppl feel forced to go with chaff you will often find more units of infantry than most other types - thats not how you calculate use though. Use is calculated by funds used and by that measure infantry is not dominating at all.
  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 9,665
    edited July 2021
    These ppl must be so high on their shrooms. The more I watch the clip the more they kinda self explain why inf should behave that way.

    It is utterly insane to pick the highest mass unit and use it as benchmark

    Orks, bestigors, chaos warriors, r these ppl lying to themselves or what?

    Those r MELEE FACTION

    Also u know theres a thing call armor? maybe they havent heard about it and also they got the hp to tank ap.

    Dont tell me these elflings expect cav to plow thru frikking chaos warriors, beastman, nosca and frikking ORKS
    If cav can do that, u prolly just need 1 chariot to run over empire, bret, tombs etc, like u know the rest of the other 10+ factions

    And good lord using swordmasters, if theres anything, helf stats r #1 in game, u wanna stay in melee with a 48 def, ap swordmaster? They r so so happy to use gors to test, how bout we see some flaggelants or nehek warrior?

    Using bestigors and black orks is absurd, both r 20 ish def, truckload of hp as they should, both has charge in the 30s or near that.

    Does ppl know what beastman identity are?

    Their inf r among the highest charge faction in game.

    Guess whats the highest stat of 2h units and savage orks are?
    Hint, its not defence.

    Have bestigors fight silverin, u dont be getting a really favorable trade despite costing 200 more and against a spear
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  • FedakynFedakyn Registered Users Posts: 31
    edited July 2021
    There is a middle ground to this...Back in the old TW days balance between melee types was debated a lot. The sort of shorthand for the ideal rock paper scissors was spears beat cav, swords beat spears, and cav beat swords. Its not the most historical answer and a bit simplistic but properly executed can make a good series of choices for any game. Its worth remembering too that both infantry and cavalry should be put in a position where for higher levels of success they should need to do more then charge. Micro and decisions leading to better results. For infantry that usually means using the fact that their cheaper to create a numbers advantage that bogs down cavalry. For cavalry a use of mobility to isolate unsupported enemies.

    Personally I think elite damage dealers, be they grail knights or Chosen GW should trade rather evenly for gold. In warhammer this is thematically strong as the best are duking it out, but it also maximally allows the tactics of the general to shine. Really cav charging and just winning some fights with no cost was a real problem, one I'm glad is fixed. But a balanced dynamic does not swing things this way, Charging into someone who mindlessly charges into you should generally not give one class a significant advantage when both are not counters and are both damage dealers. Cav beats swords for me because it should be positioning to do it when their are too few spears to counter, and swords should not win if they dont have the support they should. Maybe this makes nobody happy, but it would work. And no it would not make cavalry remarkable, because in numbers you can counter movement. Then you just vary the advantages by faction specialization and start roster considerations and your going strong.

    Ranged units have their own dynamic, its not inexplicably tied to melee. Archers protected by spears and a little mass counter cav harder then they counter infantry even. But shielded infantry can make it really hard for archers to get value. And artillery can be made inaccurate enough that the time for value means they need a real blob or significant time to pay off. It gets really complex in total war, but a SEM can crash an archer line often way better then cav can, not even touching magic...its a small note that the dynamics here are not all that simple.They are really complex. Balance here requires more nuance then just ranged beats infantry cav beats ranged. If that was what this game came down to it would be in a really bad place. So start with strong fundementals, its a bit old school perhaps but I think getting the basics strong first will lead to better long term results then just centering thing on a ranged meta distraction.

  • Sindri_TWACSindri_TWAC Registered Users Posts: 157
    yst said:

    These ppl must be so high on their shrooms. The more I watch the clip the more they kinda self explain why inf should behave that way.

    It is utterly insane to pick the highest mass unit and use it as benchmark

    Orks, bestigors, chaos warriors, r these ppl lying to themselves or what?

    Those r MELEE FACTION

    Also u know theres a thing call armor? maybe they havent heard about it and also they got the hp to tank ap.

    Dont tell me these elflings expect cav to plow thru frikking chaos warriors, beastman, nosca and frikking ORKS
    If cav can do that, u prolly just need 1 chariot to run over empire, bret, tombs etc, like u know the rest of the other 10+ factions

    And good lord using swordmasters, if theres anything, helf stats r #1 in game, u wanna stay in melee with a 48 def, ap swordmaster? They r so so happy to use gors to test, how bout we see some flaggelants or nehek warrior?

    Using bestigors and black orks is absurd, both r 20 ish def, truckload of hp as they should, both has charge in the 30s or near that.

    Does ppl know what beastman identity are?

    Their inf r among the highest charge faction in game.

    Guess whats the highest stat of 2h units and savage orks are?
    Hint, its not defence.

    Have bestigors fight silverin, u dont be getting a really favorable trade despite costing 200 more and against a spear
    glad there is a voice of reason. Saw a guy on the internet, who tested all cav on a frontal charge against big-uns and called for op.

    Sure, cav should be able to just counter any infantry, right? You say spear counters cav by bracing? You must either have never player THIS game or be joking.
  • RawSugarRawSugar Registered Users Posts: 1,642
    edited July 2021
    the issue with that is in this game ranged is heavily disfavored against fast melee and slow melee is heavily disfavored against ranged, there's also chariots which are disfavored against large fast melee and favored vs nonAL infantry.
    A "balance" that ignores that and reduces nonAL infantry to spearclearers makes those really bad, almost irrelevant.
    Instead fast melee must pay for their speed which should leave them disadvantaged vs slow melee.
    Even without ranged speed gives tactical advantage which would be paid if ranged didnt exist, since it does the price should be much higher.
    The middle ground might be to give fast melee slight buffs including rebalancing of stats which benefits them on the charge. but nerfing a infantry to the point they can only beat idle cavalry or spears while being destroyed by ranged, skirmish chariots etc just isnt balance
  • TeNoSkillTeNoSkill Registered Users Posts: 5,126
    I would prefer more effective charge/ brace mechanics rather then the wash we have right now.


    Split charge defense into 3 ( basic/advanced/expert) and make it different from charge resistance.


    Also reduce knockback on infantry and increase stamina on cav.

    Charge bonus gets a massive reduction when exhausted and you simply don t have the time to rest your cav.
  • ForistaForista Registered Users Posts: 142
    If you need a infantry for a late game Bretonia army, something is wrong. If I don't charge to spears or anti large, I do not want the half HP bar of a Holy Grail Knight being melted from a frontal charge.
  • BovineKingBovineKing Registered Users Posts: 924
    Forista said:

    If you need a infantry for a late game Bretonia army, something is wrong. If I don't charge to spears or anti large, I do not want the half HP bar of a Holy Grail Knight being melted from a frontal charge.

    See this makes sense cavalry should not have to suffer in the widely designated cavalry faction.
  • RawSugarRawSugar Registered Users Posts: 1,642

    Forista said:

    If you need a infantry for a late game Bretonia army, something is wrong. If I don't charge to spears or anti large, I do not want the half HP bar of a Holy Grail Knight being melted from a frontal charge.

    See this makes sense cavalry should not have to suffer in the widely designated cavalry faction.
    For mp brettonia infantry is super efficient, I would like to see grail guardians get like +20+ antiinfantry. But no it doesn't make sense to generally want a unit type buffed so much it can defeat it counters without acquiring new weaknesses.
    For sp Bret has no supply lines. Just do whatever. Pegasi are good vs almost anything ai might throw at you
  • DuskyCatDuskyCat Registered Users Posts: 28
    As i see the problem after some observations:
    infantry model, which started they charge atack animation now always hits target, even if it was knocked back. This leads to very "unfair" trade. Then 1 cav model knocks back seweral inf models it does not lands charged melee hit to all of them (AFAIK), cav model only deals small collision damage to knocked models. But in exchange 1 cav model recieves seweral charged melee atacks from knocked inf models.
    For cavalry now would be better, if knockback mechanic was disabled at all.

    Countercharging infantry SHOULD deal charged melee atacks, but only those Inf models who:
    1. Standing on their feet/hooves, not flying in the air
    2. Properly executed their atack animation
    For now countercharge mechanic is broken.
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