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Skaven Runners Are Damn Too Slow

CvejoCvejo Registered Users Posts: 95
edited April 22 in General Discussion


For such a squishy unit at a fairly low 109 Speed the Skaven Runners are grossly underpowered. The don't have the range not even close to the Warplock Jezzails, barely hitting over the 160 mark and don't dish out that great missile damage with that unit count.

They can be outmaneuvered by just about any cavalry or flying unit in the game and they struggle 1v1 against even Kholek the Suneater. And yet the very point of these underused units is that they're supposed to be rather fast. As a defensive frontline, they basically melt even with high leadership bonuses.

Is there any way to increase their speed to 110 and beyond?

When will CA finally fix the Skaven Runners?

Why are the Skaven Runners such a failure as a unit?
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Comments

  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 33,944
    CA needs to remove buffstacking.
  • CvejoCvejo Registered Users Posts: 95
    For instance, let's compare the Gutter Runners with an Arcane Phoenix.



    At a 120 speed the phoenix will always be able to outrun the Runners, no matter what. I've posted the statistics for the Slingers; they're the same with the regular units. The 360 arc of fire and skirmish doesn't help them, as the phoenix will always be able to catch them.

    Their relatively low leadership also won't help if they're charged by the phoenix, who dishes out incredible damage, especially if it uses the Emberstorm Vortex against them prior to the charge.
  • NeodeinosNeodeinos Registered Users Posts: 12,448
    It's a sarcastic thread. Right ?
    #JusticeForTzeentch
    #JusticeForMonogods

  • Beef545Beef545 Registered Users Posts: 764
    They are way too fast, faster than chameleon skinks by a far margin and they beat them in melee, cost similiar and also have poison. Way too OP, but then they are skaven after all, does it really suprise anyone?
    The age of Men is over. The time of the Troll has come.
  • davedave1124davedave1124 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 16,194
    Just take advantage of the poison variant to slow those down. It’s awful the way Skaven treated these days.. know what you mean.
  • CvejoCvejo Registered Users Posts: 95
    Neodeinos said:

    It's a sarcastic thread. Right ?

    No, it isn't.

    They are even outrun by Fell and Cave Bats.
  • 445Aas445Aas Registered Users Posts: 237
    I like this post.
    No aggressive trolling but silly fun.

    Look at these chunky green bars on the gutter runners! :)

    The missile strenght, lol.
  • Theo91Theo91 Registered Users Posts: 2,336

    CA needs to remove buffstacking.

    I don’t get comments like this. Clearly the OP had some fun buffing the unit like this. Why do some people think their way of playing is the only way.

    I don’t even buffstack when I play, I’m just opposed to people preaching to others on what’s fun and what’s not
  • saweendrasaweendra Registered Users Posts: 14,803

    CA needs to remove buffstacking.

    damn right
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc
  • saweendrasaweendra Registered Users Posts: 14,803
    edited April 22
    Cvejo said:

    For instance, let's compare the Gutter Runners with an Arcane Phoenix.



    At a 120 speed the phoenix will always be able to outrun the Runners, no matter what. I've posted the statistics for the Slingers; they're the same with the regular units. The 360 arc of fire and skirmish doesn't help them, as the phoenix will always be able to catch them.

    Their relatively low leadership also won't help if they're charged by the phoenix, who dishes out incredible damage, especially if it uses the Emberstorm Vortex against them prior to the charge.

    you know they have poison which has 30% slow so 109 speed gutter runner should easily be able to catch 120 speed phoenix as long as they are shooting


    edit they also have snare net passive with 12% speed debuff and 12% charge speed debuff, so a phoenix run away from you should not happen ever as long as your speed is 109
    Post edited by saweendra on
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc
  • ItharusItharus Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 13,632
    No man sized bipedal creature should be that fast.
  • CvejoCvejo Registered Users Posts: 95

    CA needs to remove buffstacking.

    In all honesty, everything i am getting from buffstacking, if understand your meaning of the term well, is 16 Speed (two Warlock Engineers).

    Take that away and you'll still get 93.
  • Mr_Finley7Mr_Finley7 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 6,718
    Oh my god they can really get that fast?

    -Cries in Boar Boy
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 33,944
    Cvejo said:

    CA needs to remove buffstacking.

    In all honesty, everything i am getting from buffstacking, if understand your meaning of the term well, is 16 Speed (two Warlock Engineers).

    Take that away and you'll still get 93.
    The base speed of Gutter Runners isn't 93, that's already about twice as fast. That's a ton of buffstacking.
  • User_ClueUser_Clue Registered Users Posts: 960
    Beef545 said:

    They are way too fast, faster than chameleon skinks by a far margin and they beat them in melee, cost similiar and also have poison. Way too OP, but then they are skaven after all, does it really suprise anyone?

    I mean the stacked buffs are redisclose sure, but base gutter runners w/poison are 250 points more than chameleons. That's 40% more expensive. I wouldn't exactly call that a similar price.
    Chameleons also have poison too and I think twice the ammo.
    "Daemons are abroad again, and the servants of the foul gods march south with the storm at their backs. But as the winds of magic stir, other powers rise to contest it.
    I have seen the Lady, my brothers. She came to me from the waters and told me of the trials to come. This is why I call you here, so that her summons may be answered. I call Errantry, a crusade to strike at the heart of the new darkness"


    -- The Lionhearted
  • saweendrasaweendra Registered Users Posts: 14,803
    User_Clue said:

    Beef545 said:

    They are way too fast, faster than chameleon skinks by a far margin and they beat them in melee, cost similiar and also have poison. Way too OP, but then they are skaven after all, does it really suprise anyone?

    I mean the stacked buffs are redisclose sure, but base gutter runners w/poison are 250 points more than chameleons. That's 40% more expensive. I wouldn't exactly call that a similar price.
    Chameleons also have poison too and I think twice the ammo.
    yeah but its reasonably price if you consider smoke bomb, snare net passive, extra speed , more accuracy stats..etc. assuming Chem are balanced unit

    https://twwstats.com/unitscards?units=f=0&k=wh2_main_skv_inf_gutter_runners_1&m&r=0&v=4716316107383894702&units=f=0&k=wh2_main_lzd_inf_chameleon_skinks_0&m&r=0&v=4716316107383894702
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc
  • CvejoCvejo Registered Users Posts: 95
    edited April 22

    Cvejo said:

    CA needs to remove buffstacking.

    In all honesty, everything i am getting from buffstacking, if understand your meaning of the term well, is 16 Speed (two Warlock Engineers).

    Take that away and you'll still get 93.
    The base speed of Gutter Runners isn't 93, that's already about twice as fast. That's a ton of buffstacking.
    What do you want to say, exactly?

    You want to limit e.g. max +5% buff per unit for every stat?

    I asked you likewise in the Slayer thread; what do you consider buffstacking?
  • saweendrasaweendra Registered Users Posts: 14,803
    edited April 22
    Cvejo said:

    Cvejo said:

    CA needs to remove buffstacking.

    In all honesty, everything i am getting from buffstacking, if understand your meaning of the term well, is 16 Speed (two Warlock Engineers).

    Take that away and you'll still get 93.
    The base speed of Gutter Runners isn't 93, that's already about twice as fast. That's a ton of buffstacking.
    What do you want to say, exactly?

    You want to limit e.g. max +5% buff per unit for every stat?

    I asked you likewise in the Slayer thread; what do you consider buffstacking?
    i personally would remove the whole buff stack and have units just run on base stats and then focus skill and tech..etc on upkeep,economy , replenishment, diplomacy or any number of things they can add as general camagin mechanics or have extremely limited buffs.


    but yeah +5% to each stat is ok than we won't at least see units loosing their identity
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc
  • CvejoCvejo Registered Users Posts: 95
    saweendra said:

    Cvejo said:

    Cvejo said:

    CA needs to remove buffstacking.

    In all honesty, everything i am getting from buffstacking, if understand your meaning of the term well, is 16 Speed (two Warlock Engineers).

    Take that away and you'll still get 93.
    The base speed of Gutter Runners isn't 93, that's already about twice as fast. That's a ton of buffstacking.
    What do you want to say, exactly?

    You want to limit e.g. max +5% buff per unit for every stat?

    I asked you likewise in the Slayer thread; what do you consider buffstacking?
    i personally would remove the whole buff stack and have units just run on base stats and then focus skill and tech..etc on upkeep,economy , replenishment, diplomacy or any number of things they can add as general camagin mechanics or have extremely limited buffs.


    but yeah +5% to each stat is ok than we won't at least see units loosing their identity

    Like I said, i didn't exploit buffstacking all that much.

    A max to 5% bonus to each stat is boring. It destroys the uniqueness of the game and makes the difference between subfactions literally superficial. Grom's cooking, Eshin buffs, Ikit's workshop and Throt's laboratory; those are the reasons why I consider the game entertaining and worth playing all over again.

    Imagine Ikit granting "+5% Weapon Strength" to Rattling Guns, in comparison to all other factions.

    It would not make the game better, but worse.
  • saweendrasaweendra Registered Users Posts: 14,803
    Cvejo said:

    saweendra said:

    Cvejo said:

    Cvejo said:

    CA needs to remove buffstacking.

    In all honesty, everything i am getting from buffstacking, if understand your meaning of the term well, is 16 Speed (two Warlock Engineers).

    Take that away and you'll still get 93.
    The base speed of Gutter Runners isn't 93, that's already about twice as fast. That's a ton of buffstacking.
    What do you want to say, exactly?

    You want to limit e.g. max +5% buff per unit for every stat?

    I asked you likewise in the Slayer thread; what do you consider buffstacking?
    i personally would remove the whole buff stack and have units just run on base stats and then focus skill and tech..etc on upkeep,economy , replenishment, diplomacy or any number of things they can add as general camagin mechanics or have extremely limited buffs.


    but yeah +5% to each stat is ok than we won't at least see units loosing their identity

    Like I said, i didn't exploit buffstacking all that much.

    A max to 5% bonus to each stat is boring. It destroys the uniqueness of the game and makes the difference between subfactions literally superficial. Grom's cooking, Eshin buffs, Ikit's workshop and Throt's laboratory; those are the reasons why I consider the game entertaining and worth playing all over again.

    Imagine Ikit granting "+5% Weapon Strength" to Rattling Guns, in comparison to all other factions.

    It would not make the game better, but worse.
    then don't complain when the tables are turned , Ai can buff stack too , it might not be as eficinet but it can than its your turn to git gud because you want your favourite races to get insaine bufs than other races also have fans that want the same.

    its CA own fault to creating a game environment that promote power fantasy over staratgey
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc
  • HL230P45HL230P45 Registered Users Posts: 254
    Cvejo said:


    Like I said, i didn't exploit buffstacking all that much.

    Then how did you get them to run that fast? I've been playing all-Eshin-units Eshin campaign and I've buff-stacked those runners twice: from lord ability and through +10 per cent speed technology and I've only got them to 71 speed. How did you get them to 90? That seems like a big ass stacking to me.
  • ProcessingProcessing Czech Republic Registered Users Posts: 467
    edited April 22
    They don't move at that speed... Every unit has limited max speed due to their animations, I think a unit can move by about additional 30% ish bonus movement speed. Realistically, these gutter runners move about 75-ish speed.
  • elkappelkapp Registered Users Posts: 882
    Dear god that is truly a terrible case of buffstacking, those gutter runner slingers must really be as fast as they are presented. There's definitely no way that those unit won't be as fast as they are supposed to be due to animations having a speed cap, nono they'll truly move at 109.

    Also, do we even need to go over how stupidly easy is to gather that insane ammount of speed? You just need to spam something like 4 or 5 warplock engineers, which as we know are extremely easy to get since the game literally throws heroes at you from the start. And let's not talk about how easy is to get them to the appropriate level, they just rank so **** fast it makes even balanced armies unplayable due to how strong they become.

    There's no excuse anymore, and this a big example why: this **** attitude by CA and their [unspeakable] fanbase need to stop NOW or TOMORROW before this game literally becomes the CoD of RTS games.
    The first big change i propose is one that i cherished from a long time and will send a strong signat to all the cheeser and people that want the game to remain a casual's playgrond: state mandated army compositions.
  • elkappelkapp Registered Users Posts: 882
    And, since i'm not someone that bends: the "playgrond" in my previous comment is not an error, is a statement.
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 33,944
    edited April 22

    They don't move at that speed... Every unit has limited max speed due to their animations, I think a unit can move by about additional 30% ish bonus movement speed. Realistically, these gutter runners move about 75-ish speed.

    False. CA's excuse goes the other way. They totally can't make the Brood Horror move slower because of its animations.

    Despite the animations looking absolute jittery because the unit's obviously way too fast.

    Buffstacking needs to be destroyed.
  • RheingoldRheingold Registered Users Posts: 1,035
    edited April 22

    They don't move at that speed... Every unit has limited max speed due to their animations, I think a unit can move by about additional 30% ish bonus movement speed. Realistically, these gutter runners move about 75-ish speed.

    False. CA's excuse goes the other way. They totally can't make the Brood Horror move slower because of its animations.

    Despite the animations looking absolute jittery because the unit's obviously way too fast.

    Buffstacking needs to be destroyed.
    Buffstacking is a separate issue - and probably needs to be toned down together with the rather obnoxious power creep. But there is no way those runners move anything like that speed. As said above animations are the limit. Same thing with ranged firepower. You get crazy numbers on the card but there is a minimum reload time - so the figure are never accurate beyond a point. I've got ratlings to 3500-4k damage and thunder's up to 200 with all buffs, but they actually don't do anything like that in reality.
  • CvejoCvejo Registered Users Posts: 95
    edited April 22
    HL230P45 said:

    Cvejo said:


    Like I said, i didn't exploit buffstacking all that much.

    Then how did you get them to run that fast? I've been playing all-Eshin-units Eshin campaign and I've buff-stacked those runners twice: from lord ability and through +10 per cent speed technology and I've only got them to 71 speed. How did you get them to 90? That seems like a big ass stacking to me.
    The default Speed is 54.
    * Hit & Run Tech boosts Speed of all infantry by +10%
    * Infiltrator Lord skill Level 3 boosts Gutter Runners and Night Runners by +10%
    * Conceal-Hide them unique Snikch skill grants a further +10% to al units in his army
    * Sapper Skill of the Warlock Engineer Level 3 grants +15% to ranged units in the Hero's army
    * Banner of Verminous Scurrying unique Skaven ancillary attached to the unit grants +16%
    * The Sudden Kill Scheme unique Clan Eshin rite grants +10% Speed to all units

    That is in total +71%. That is 93 Speed in the end. No big ass stacking; every source separate.

    P. S. I have never gotten the Banner of Swiftness playing as the Skaven, so I actually think they can't get it, but since it is better than their unique banner it would hypothetically grant another 2% (that general banner grants +18%). Though it would still show as 93. But as I've said, I think the Skaven cannot get it.
  • CvejoCvejo Registered Users Posts: 95
    Cvejo said:

    HL230P45 said:

    Cvejo said:


    Like I said, i didn't exploit buffstacking all that much.

    Then how did you get them to run that fast? I've been playing all-Eshin-units Eshin campaign and I've buff-stacked those runners twice: from lord ability and through +10 per cent speed technology and I've only got them to 71 speed. How did you get them to 90? That seems like a big ass stacking to me.
    The default Speed is 54.
    * Hit & Run Tech boosts Speed of all infantry by +10%
    * Infiltrator Lord skill Level 3 boosts Gutter Runners and Night Runners by +10%
    * Conceal-Hide them unique Snikch skill grants a further +10% to al units in his army
    * Sapper Skill of the Warlock Engineer Level 3 grants +15% to ranged units in the Hero's army
    * Banner of Verminous Scurrying unique Skaven ancillary attached to the unit grants +16%
    * The Sudden Kill Scheme unique Clan Eshin rite grants +10% Speed to all units

    That is in total +71%. That is 93 Speed in the end. No big ass stacking; every source separate.

    P. S. I have never gotten the Banner of Swiftness playing as the Skaven, so I actually think they can't get it, but since it is better than their unique banner it would hypothetically grant another 2% (that general banner grants +18%). Though it would still show as 93. But as I've said, I think the Skaven cannot get it.
    93 is precisely somewhere close to the Runner's max, according to Legend of Total War, but with Skitterleap it could go up by another +24% for the duration of the Eshin Sorcerer's spell. The end result is 105 Speed, which is in this case a bit of an overkill with no practical use.

    As you could say that the Sudden Kill Scheme is only a rare opportunity, as the rite lasts for only a single turn, aside from the fact that you can't really equip every runner with a banner to increase its speed, the missing 26% could be replaced in battle by the Skitterlep spell. The end result is a +69% bonus, which is 91, i.e. pretty much close to (real, capped) max.
  • CvejoCvejo Registered Users Posts: 95


    Starting as Throt the Unclean and confederating Snikch grants access to the Clan Moulder Flesh Laboratory.

    The loss of a 10% from Snikch's unique rite isn't that big of a deal as it is only seldom used, whereas the Runners can now be mutated with Enhanced Muscle Fibres to grant them permanently +15% Speed.

    That's (when it comes to speed, at least) more useful than the rite and will essentially grant a +76% speed bonus to runners in a confederated Snikch army led in the name of Throt. I.e a Speed of 94, without using more than the single mandatory Warlock Engineer within the army.
  • CvejoCvejo Registered Users Posts: 95
    saweendra said:

    Cvejo said:

    saweendra said:

    Cvejo said:

    Cvejo said:

    CA needs to remove buffstacking.

    In all honesty, everything i am getting from buffstacking, if understand your meaning of the term well, is 16 Speed (two Warlock Engineers).

    Take that away and you'll still get 93.
    The base speed of Gutter Runners isn't 93, that's already about twice as fast. That's a ton of buffstacking.
    What do you want to say, exactly?

    You want to limit e.g. max +5% buff per unit for every stat?

    I asked you likewise in the Slayer thread; what do you consider buffstacking?
    i personally would remove the whole buff stack and have units just run on base stats and then focus skill and tech..etc on upkeep,economy , replenishment, diplomacy or any number of things they can add as general camagin mechanics or have extremely limited buffs.


    but yeah +5% to each stat is ok than we won't at least see units loosing their identity

    Like I said, i didn't exploit buffstacking all that much.

    A max to 5% bonus to each stat is boring. It destroys the uniqueness of the game and makes the difference between subfactions literally superficial. Grom's cooking, Eshin buffs, Ikit's workshop and Throt's laboratory; those are the reasons why I consider the game entertaining and worth playing all over again.

    Imagine Ikit granting "+5% Weapon Strength" to Rattling Guns, in comparison to all other factions.

    It would not make the game better, but worse.
    then don't complain when the tables are turned , Ai can buff stack too , it might not be as eficinet but it can than its your turn to git gud because you want your favourite races to get insaine bufs than other races also have fans that want the same.

    its CA own fault to creating a game environment that promote power fantasy over staratgey
    AI's buffing's are pathetic. It cannot match the player, nowhere near in efficiency.
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